Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. Check out the description below for more details. And if you've been enjoying this show, go ahead, leave a rating, comment, and subscribe. Now today, Howie, Eric, and I took a quiz that measures how tight or loose our mindset is.
Now, we got this idea from another podcast, the Sam Harris podcast, where he had on a guest by the name of Michelle Gelfand, who was a professor of psychology and organizational behavior at Stanford University. Now, she wrote a book called Rulemakers and Rule Breakers, How Tight and Loose Cultures Wire Our World. And it's basically a really fascinating dive into the evolution of human cultures and society's
and how this concept of loose or tight not only shape our individual behaviors, but shape entire groups and human cultures. She shows that much of the diversity in the way we act and think comes from one key difference, which is how tightly or loosely we act.
we adhere to social norms. And I think that's really fascinating. So we took our quiz today online and we talk about where each of us fall on this tight or loose spectrum. And we explore this concept on a personal level, but also talk about it on a broader social level as well. So without further ado, it's the honest drink. Here we go.
We just took that quiz. What'd you get, Justin? I got a 54.
The loose mindset is less attentive to social norms, more willing to take risks, more impulsive, and more comfortable with disorder and ambiguity. They can acclimate quickly to new situations and more readily welcome change. A tight mindset, by contrast, involves paying a great deal of attention to social norms, a strong desire to avoid mistakes,
a lot of impulse control, and a preference for order and structure. Relishing routine, it requires a keen sensitivity to signs of disorder. I think the score number that we all got, they're all pretty close, right? They're not that far away from each other. Yeah, we're all in the same general category. Where did you find that, the description?
In the results section. When you hit your results, it's a little paragraph underneath. Okay. But can we go back to that real quick? So you are so not loose, bro.
No. You got the lowest score, which is the loosest score. Out of all of us. Out of all of us. But no one knows what we're talking about. That's what I'm saying. Exactly. But see, you have to have this order. You have to have that structure because you're like, okay, well, people don't know. We have to go back and reread it and get on tracks. That is exactly what they are saying is the tight mindset. Yet you got the loosest score. I think you lied. Yeah. I'm questioning how...
how objective you were about yourself. The biggest surprise for all of us, I think I can speak for all of us, is that we're all surprised that our numbers were not what we thought they were. You know, like Justin came back with the 50-something score. I was the tightest out of all of you. Which is the tightest out of all of us. And then meanwhile, we thought that you'd probably be the loosest or one of the loosest. Yeah. Yeah, and then Eric is the loosest. And then we thought that he would be a higher score as a tighter person.
I just looked up this article about this lady, Michelle Gelfand. Yeah. So she's a professor and she developed this concept of
And she says that she's talking about it in terms of like the actual culture, like the group of people. And she says that cultures can be located along this continuum from tight to loose, depending on the strictness of these rules. And she says tight cultures have strong social norms and little tolerance for deviance, while loose cultures have weak social norms and are highly permissive.
So I was thinking the example she gave was like churchgoers, middle-aged churchgoers versus a party of 20-something-year-olds in Brooklyn. I was just actually thinking about different countries. Maybe we're taking this to a place where it wasn't intended, but like a tight culture with response to COVID versus like a loose culture.
They covered this on the podcast too. And they looked around the world, the tight cultures around the world have responded much better to the pandemic than loose cultures. And one of like the main takeaways from that conversation was that, you know, there's no, like, again, there's no good or bad. There's no right or wrong here. It's just that they said tight cultures are usually safer societies. Yeah.
Loose cultures are usually a lot more liberal and a lot more creative. Makes sense. Yeah. Because you're gambling when you're a loose culture in a way, right? Because the whole idea of safe is that you know the... It's almost like you know what the answer is going to be. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because you're not taking any chances. You're not gambling. Meanwhile, the loose culture or the idea of loose is free flow, free will, freedom, right?
Yeah, so according to this psychologist, Michelle, a lot of the kind of examples of what a tight culture would be would be a lot of the Scandinavian countries, Asian countries,
are tighter on that spectrum. - Would Singapore be a tighter country? - Oh yeah. - They must be way up there. - Yeah, Singapore is a very tight culture, generally speaking, obviously. United States skews more on the loose spectrum. - Who's like real loose? Like Jamaica?
I guess. I don't know. Jamaica. That's probably rude. I mean, the U.S. is pretty loose. I shouldn't say that. I would think North Korea. I mean. They're partying hard over there. Yeah. Super loose. Okay. Let me ask this question, right? Because like there's obviously a lot of science behind this, but let's maybe back up a little bit and just do our own honest drink take on this. So like in your own words, what is a loose person versus like a tight person?
How would you describe this when you visualize your own friends? You to me,
exemplify someone who might fall in the tighter. Literally, you type in tight and the face of Eric Chang appears. Is that what you're trying to say? Yes. I'm not putting words in your mouth. No, you are not at all. Thank you for saying that. Well, the irony of that is that if you were to ask my mom and dad, my entire life has been a, like, it's been a war and a battle for them to kind of get me from
one end of the spectrum to the other. Interesting. Because they would characterize me as like the loosest child that was ever born to Asian parents in the history of Asian parenting in America. And so perhaps the tightness that you see is the success of some of that approach. So do you think you were born very loose and then you just got like beaten into like a tight personality? Well...
A lot of your base personality manifests itself when you're young. Yeah. But you change, nature versus nurture. And starting in first grade, I had a difficult time with impulse control. So all the other kids would be on the spectrum of tightness where they would be able to sit in their seat, do their homework, and speak when spoken to.
I couldn't function in that environment. I would literally, in the middle of class, just get up and just start talking randomly. Really? Yeah. About something that wasn't even relevant. I could not follow the norms in the class. I would just do my own thing all the time. Okay. Well, let's pivot real quick because a thought just came to my mind. Let's play a little thought experiment. Let's play a little game. If you were...
If we were all going to create our own societies from scratch, if we were all trying to create our own utopias, I guess, do you feel you would create a society that's skewed more tight or a society that's skewed more loose? Because there's pros and cons to both. I actually thought about something like this recently because I've realized how much I've changed.
And the way of, like my mindset, and I was kind of alluding to this before we started recording. You know, when I was in my 20s, I would be on that utopia side of living loose. You know, everyone's got their own freedoms and all that kind of stuff. Respect all different perspectives, respect, you know, one being in control of one's own life, et cetera, et cetera. But I feel like now I think a lot more
differently in the way that it's not so self-centered anymore. It's a lot more thinking about from a societal perspective as opposed to my own personal perspective, which makes it tend to lean or veer towards more tight, just for the sake of not going to chaos, you know? Let's go back to what was discussed in the Sam Harris podcast,
is looking at the Scandinavian countries and societies who skew much more tight on this social spectrum, cultural spectrum. And these are the countries that are consistently in the world rankings, take it with a grain of salt, but consistently in the world rankings ranked among the happiest and healthiest societies and countries to live in. And this was part of the discussion.
And, you know, I think something that you said, Howie, is like kind of like this respect for others. And I think like our knee jerk reaction is to think that the more loose and liberal societies, I guess, are more respecting. But when you actually dive deep and analyze it, it's actually the opposite. If you look at a lot of the tighter collective societies, it's because why are they tighter? It's because there's much more of a respect for your neighbor. Yeah.
That's why people are behaving in certain ways, because there's more of a social order for things, because it's more about a collectivism. Yeah, but also... Because of that respect. Yeah, the collectivism and the social order is also derived from a sort of like a unison way of thinking, as opposed to many different...
thoughts and backgrounds and socioeconomic responsibilities and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. True. That make things much more divisive. That's one of the cons that they brought up is that the looser societies are also typically more diverse societies as well. Yeah. But it's because of their diverseness that brings a lot of great things, obviously, but also puts a lot of challenges in the way of
kind of getting everybody on board because there's so much diversity in all facets and all layers that it's hard for people to kind of all agree and think the same way. And obviously it's not necessarily good for everyone to always think the same way. 100%. But if you're just looking at it from order, social order, then that helps a lot. I mean, I kind of answer my own question about
Why my mindset has changed in a way. My way of thinking has changed, especially being here for so long. Because I think I'm influenced by the society here, you know? And I'm less concerned about some of the things that may have concerned me when I used to live abroad. It's funny I'm calling that abroad now. Well, what this article...
I've just been scanning a few articles just to get a little bit more context so that we have something to kind of anchor around, because otherwise we're just kind of floating there a little bit. Because we're trying to learn about this, right? We kind of introduced this concept of tight and loose without really any notion, but there are a few things I think that are good to point out. One thing that the author says is that whether or not you have a tight mindset or a loose mindset,
has a lot to do with where you live, the society that you're in, which Howie was saying, but also your workplace, your household, your friends. So it's very much influenced by your environment in addition to who you are. And then when you start thinking about tight and loose, it really is pervasive. Because imagine that you're a certain, naturally, a certain place on the spectrum, and then you go to a place or an environment that is really, really on a different level.
part of the scale, that must be really uncomfortable. So you could be in a society that is one way, let's say you're in a society that's extremely loose, like the US, I don't know if the US is considered extremely loose, but let's say it's relatively loose. But then you grew up like I did, and the tightest
possible environment. A household. A household. And we sometimes call that, we have a term for that, like the tiger mom and the tiger family and all that stuff. And then you're sort of having all this conflict. And I think what this author is saying is that
then you, number one is that humans adapt, right? We should get into some of the questions because a lot of the questions are like, oh, are you able to adapt yourself and adjust yourself? But it doesn't mean it's uncomfortable. And they're probably pros and cons in terms of, so if I'm forced to be in a different environment, like I'm a really tight person, but I'm forced to be in a loose environment, maybe that's good for me, pushes me out of my comfort zone.
And at the same time, if I'm a fairly tight person and I'm in a tighter environment, maybe I can be really productive. So I'm a tight person. I go to a company that's really tight and then boom, I can be really, really productive. So there probably isn't really a good or bad, but it's very pervasive because we don't think of this way. And a lot of it is building awareness around the tension that's always around you. Even the show where I, if I reflect my style on the show and my
And my role maybe was a little bit tighter. And then, Justin, you might be looser. And then we had tension in the beginning until I recognized that you were going to be loose, but you still had enough structure in that framework. That's such a good point. That's such a good point. Because, oh, yeah, because we're talking on the societal level, but on an individual level, me and you, at least in the beginning before we kind of figured this whole thing out,
There was a lot of, I mean, obviously we've always loved each other, but there was a lot of friction in terms of how we engage each other on the podcast, right? Off air, we're fine. But when it comes time on the podcast, all of a sudden there used to be all this friction and it wasn't like, I think you framed it in the perfect way, taking away some lessons from this quiz and this psychologist is that it's this kind of difference and margin between us, between the tightness and looseness of us.
there are parts of my life that I probably do struggle fighting that tightness when you want things to be sort of perfect and stuff like that. And so I don't know where that comes from. Yeah. Yeah. But remember we did this show around travel back, like, like just me and you. Yeah. And then, and that was a really cool show. And we talked about how like, and, and can be like very tight, like in terms of work and certain things. But when it comes to vacation, like,
She just wants to have it completely free. Remember, I was like military every day. We got to wake up. We got to go here. We got to hit all the Michelin star restaurants. We got to do this. And I was like tight as a motherfucker. And it was so stressful and I was tired. I actually wanted a structure that was much looser but would still hit my objectives. So I don't know if I'm tight or that I feel I need to be tight to get to my goals.
I'm thinking about this right now, and it explains so much, right? Like, it really... And I'm not just saying this because we're recording a podcast and we have to say something. Like, it really does explain a lot. And again, we've talked about this to death, but I think it's worth reiterating, at least for me personally, is this, I think, is where a lot of the misunderstandings between, let's say, when...
Americans look at China or when Chinese people look at America, this kind of bewilderment of like, why are they doing things that way? Like what's wrong with them? Right. And it happens both ways. Right. Like Chinese people think Americans is like, you just go there and you're just going to get shot. Right. And obviously we know what the Western part of the world thinks a lot about China as well. So it's like,
But it's this difference. I think it's this stark contrast between a tight and loose culture where they don't understand. They're taking their loose mindset and then applying it to a tight framework and vice versa. Totally. And that's where a lot of these things is kind of like alien to them. They just don't understand. And it's like, well, in my context here, that would be so wrong or so bad or so backwards. Yeah.
But it makes perfect sense when you apply it into its native framework in society. Well, and that's precisely like what Howie was saying earlier is that like, you know, having experienced culture in a certain way the last 10 or so some odd years, then we look back at, let's
let's say the u.s response to you know government or um the u.s response to the pandemic and we're like these motherfuckers are loose as fuck yeah it's like what the fuck's wrong with you loose as a mofo like get up some tightness on that shit fucking cinch that shit up zip it up dog you're a wizard sleeve
You know MBTI? So the personality test. So there's a really famous personality test, Myers-Briggs. Oh, okay. And companies do that, and it's like four letters, and there's basically like these four dimensions. What are you? I can't remember what the types. They call them types.
And the last type is you can be either a P or a J, perceiving or judgment. And it's very similar because to simplify in a very simple terms, a J is just someone that everything has to be planned. Like, you know, if we go for a meal, like I won't go with you unless you send me an email or a calendar invitation like a week before. I have to know where we're going. And then I get all worked up if you don't give me all the precise details. And that's like the J, right?
And then the P is like the person is just like, it's like 1159. And it's like, yo, dog, you want to go for lunch? And I've taken some of these personality tests and I'm always very P, like just personality wise. Like, it's like, oh, like, let's just go have lunch. I'll ask you like two minutes before.
But what I've learned is that there's also value in being the J and I enjoy that as well because when you get it on someone's calendar a week before, then you can, you know, anticipate that and it's fun. So it's, it's,
I think you can be both. You can be tight and loose. And we all know people who are both, right? Like who are either on one side or the other. Well, that's the problem with these personality tests, in my opinion. Yeah. Because there is that diversity. How do you answer? When we took this test, we're like, how do you answer? Because circumstances, different circumstances equate to different type of reaction. So it's not like you can be like, oh, in this situation, you know, are you going to break the rule? I'm like, yeah, I'll break a rule for a certain situation when it comes. Yeah.
Otherwise, if I'm in another type of situation, no, I'm not going to break a rule. So I think these type of tests are just... Yeah, but I think you just have to take... Yeah, I understand because I struggled with a lot of questions that way too. But you just got to be like, okay, well, most of the time, what am I? Or what is my default way, I guess. Well, let's go into some of these questions. Before we go in, real quick, what was your Myers-Briggs? My Myers-Briggs...
ENTP. Really? Yeah. But let me just... Let me add this to both your comments. Is that a lot of these personality tests are difficult to answer because the questions are quite complex. They are asking you, what behavior do you have? But you could have a hundred different behaviors in different situations. Because they're contextual. They're contextual. Right? The...
But the tests are graded on a scale, like do you strongly agree or disagree? And I think there's some science behind that where they understand it's going to be hard to answer the question and what it really is is a scale. And in Myers-Briggs they call it a preference. So for instance, extroverted versus introverted, right? Do you get your energy by being around lots of people or do you get your energy by being alone? I scored very much in the middle, slightly E because within the
that for type, there's many facets. And one facet was sharing and liking to share stuff. And I love sharing stuff. I could just go on and on about sharing things. So for that one, my preference was really highly extroverted because introverted people don't really like to share. Maybe they're less open to sharing. I'm just stereotyping a little bit, right? But in terms of like going to a party of hundreds of people, maybe I'm okay with that.
So there's different sort of facets to it. But then when you amalgamate everything, there has to be some kind of objective score because otherwise it'd be kind of useful if it was only qualitative. So that's where I scored a little bit kind of like slightly extroverted because I did get a lot of energy from certain things like that. But there were other ones where it was very clear. Like I think the second one is like thinking versus...
feeling or something i can't remember but like i was quite analytical on some of the stuff
But there's definitely different sort of ranges. And you can change over the course of your lifetime. But also, a lot of the questions are actually repeat questions, but the sentences are formed differently. But the answer, actually, the objective is the same. And they're just trying to trick you to get the real answer. Is that why you were annoyed when you were taking the test? You seemed you were kind of annoyed with the questions. Yeah.
You were like, I have a problem with this test. Yeah, because I felt like it's just too general and tight with the test. It wasn't loose. That's an expression of tightness. If you don't like the test, you're tight. Loose people would be like, whatever. Well, that's the trade-off because the quiz is only 20 questions. So you can't, in a 20-question quiz, that's kind of open for everybody, it's going to have to be general.
Otherwise, it'd be like 10,000 questions, right? Well, okay. Let me ask. Okay. Right before we get into the questions. So, is the fact that we have to drink before starting every show a sign that we're kind of tight and that we want to be looser? That's using the definition of tight and loose in a different way, differently than I think what this conversation is about, right? But...
Not, not yes and no, because if you think about it like this, the questions are like, okay, am I, am I afraid of making mistakes? Do I need to know like what's going to happen, you know, before going into this stuff? And like a lot of times when you do a podcast, like the, the,
We go into it and we're a little bit nervous. We don't know what we're going to say. We're kind of like, we don't want to make mistakes. We don't know what the topic's going to be. You know, we have all this doubt in our head. And we had a lot of doubt when we started the podcast. And eventually, we were able to be looser without having that much control because we had confidence. And I definitely know that the alcohol just helps me be more relaxed so that I can let the conversation go where it goes. And so...
where maybe I start the show, even now, a little bit tight. I'm much better than before. That having a couple of sips allows us to be a little bit more honest and loose. So I do feel it in some ways relates to the definition here. Then we should drink way earlier than we do. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. Well, you know, I sometimes like, before we do the show, I'll try to intentionally work out that day. Because I know if I work out in the morning, I can just come on the show and be loose. Yeah, we've talked about your working out ad nauseum. Okay. Ad nauseum. You have to relate every single thing to your workout. Literally, do you notice that? Like every single conversation we have...
No matter what the guest, no matter what we're talking about ourselves, you always have to tie it back to your own workouts. But isn't that- It's like you're virtue signaling of your workout. Well, hold on, hold on.
Like, whether or not it's, like, vanity... But listen, hear me out. Like, whether it's vanity or whether it's virtue signaling, fine. Like, I'll admit it. If you think it is, it is, right? Just to be clear, I don't think it's vanity. I think you're helping yourself because you're relating to your own personal issues. Whatever the funny perceptions are, fine. Like, you know, I can deal with them. I...
I actually think it's a good thing. And the reason I think it's a good thing is that, as you know, we've studied a lot of self-improvement. We've studied successful people the last few years. We've done a lot of reading, a lot of reflection, talked to a lot of people. And universally, if...
were to ask this group of people, what is the single most important thing that you could do to make everything else easier? We would probably say exercise. You look at all the successful people, most universally, and you ask them, for all the successful people you know, what's the difference maker?
it's working out. So is it surprising that ultimately I link a lot of tactical little things with working out? That wasn't even really trying to be vain. It was just like, I literally, if I'm going to come on the podcast and I want to have a good performance, then that day I try to schedule a short workout. I mean, it could be a 10 minute run. It's not like I'm doing a five hour Spartan. It's like a 10 minute run will change that. Like break a sweat. Yeah. So for instance, today it was, you know, kind of raining. So,
I didn't have the motivation to go out and exercise. So the reason I was a little bit late today was I decided that, okay, to get a little bit more energy, I'm going to walk over. Even though it was raining, I walked over and it made me feel a lot better. So I think in a way I understand like how this can be humorous and you can take the piss out of me. But at the same time, the fact that I'm so consistent about it means that it truly is the, the
The driver. Look how tight he's being, right? He's like, I'm so consistent like every other high-level executive out there. Okay, let's... Because we all think of the same thing when it comes to high performance. Okay, I love it. I love it. Let's open this up a little bit, okay? So the first question, so people know what the fuck we're talking about is... I think it's a great question. I...
keep my emotions under control can we answer that for eric yeah please that's the only one that needs to be answered yeah like it doesn't like it doesn't matter right away we're both like this is only relevant for eric in my i don't even get to answer the question no you do not you have no say actually i want to know what he answered yeah what did you answer what ridiculous answer did you give i i've
I think I put probably moderately inaccurate. Oh, really? You put inaccurate that you control your emotions. Okay. Well, that's more... In line with what you're thinking, right? No, no, no, no. It's still not in line with how I'm thinking, but I give you more credit because I thought you would have said like it was accurate or something.
You are, I think you are the extreme. Like extremely inaccurate would be, like read the question again. I keep my emotions under control. The extreme. Extremely inaccurate should be your response to that. The extreme. I feel a lot of judgment. No judgment, no judgment. A lot of judgment. For you guys who can't see the video, there's like 20 fingers and toes pointed at me right now. It's like all fingers pointed at me.
No, but to be fair, I think you've gotten so much better at this. It went from... Because you actively practice. So it went from ridiculously inaccurate to very inaccurate. Extremely inaccurate. Yeah, no. If there is an extremely option, it would be extremely accurate. No, but it went from the last few years ridiculously, like hyperbolically inaccurate to just ridiculously inaccurate. Just ridiculous.
Yeah. Okay, and why? I don't think we can get into why because we would have to share stories that we can't share or we shouldn't share about you on the podcast. Would that define me, though? Like, okay, I'm just being devil's advocate, though. So let's say that...
There were different scenarios over the years that showed that I was not good at keeping my emotions under control in that area. There are a lot of different kinds of emotions as well, right? There's anger, rage, love, hate, whatever. Have you guys seen a systematic inability to control emotions across that spectrum? The whole spectrum. Really? Okay. The whole spectrum. But I think it heavily...
See, different emotions have different intensities of consequence, right? So if you take an emotion like love, for example, love can be very powerful, of course. But if you have, I think it's less detrimental than emotions like anger and rage.
It could be detrimental if you put it. Sure. It could be really. But it's a little more complicated. I think anger and rage manifests itself much more directly and immediately. And it's much more obvious, right? On a day-to-day basis. Could be. Are your perceptions, is there any, any,
to your perceptions may be slightly dated on this topic just as your parents' perception of your kindness and looseness. Sure. Well, I think that's what Justin was saying that it's been a change. There's been a change. And so...
There has been progress made in terms of keeping those emotions under check, that full spectrum of emotions. You have shown improvement, and your hard work has shown. I mean, that's... So if it was a scale from 1 to 10, 10 being that number of, Justin was saying, that extreme of not being able to keep yourself in control. Like the Hulk. You're like a 9 now. So you're definitely improving. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Okay, you're like a 6 or 7 now, I would say. 7, I would say 7.
A six or a seven that occasionally can get to a nine or ten. Just jump right into it.
I mellowed out a little bit. No, no, for sure. For sure you have. For sure. But it says a lot that two of your closest friends are like super adamant and just like immediately reacting to this question about you and be like, dude, right? Yeah. Like it says a lot. And it also says a lot about your self-awareness and your own personal efforts to control that. Well, and the interesting question is that, first of all, having...
people that are really close to you, be able to be honest with you is a gift. It's a gift. It's a very, very important data point. Now, and it may be true, right? Let's say that then you were to, but ultimately your impact is on all the people that you engage with every day. But if you were to go to work, you were, you know, your family and all these other
points and you were to ask them the same question, you might get a lot of different answers as well. And this goes back to the point of the context where some of these questions are not, they're definitely not black and white. They're really multi, multi, multifaceted. And so it's important to take all of the commentary and observations to heart. And at the same time, not to take them too seriously either, because it's
there's just so many engagement points that you have. And so you might, if you were to ask like others, they might actually see a completely different side, which is kind of crazy about human beings. Sure, sure, sure.
I mean, look, none of this is real judgment. I think it's more just a practice in improving our self-awareness. And self-awareness isn't just focused on the self in terms of my own awareness of myself, but it's also taking cues and taking information and feedback from people around you. You don't have to believe all of it, but you should believe some of it. And you can be selective about that. Agreed.
I want to ask one that I feel is just much more practical and down to earth and less kind of specific. But the question is, how much do you agree with this statement? I hate to change my plans at the last minute. Yeah, I remember that question. I mean, personally, when I read that, I know that for me, I'm constantly changing my
my plans because of just the nature of my personality, I think, and also the work I do. So I'm used to that. But at the same time, I was just thinking about, okay, but when I actually book something, you know what I mean? Like when I actually make a decision on something. When you commit to something. When I commit to something, how do I feel? Yeah. You know? And that's where I got a little bit, fuck, how do I answer this? Yeah. What did you guys answer on just as the aggregate?
So, okay, so read the question again. I hate to change my plans at the last minute. If I remember correctly, I responded moderately accurate to even maybe very accurate. Okay. Because, listen, one of my pet peeves, I might have said this to you guys before, are flaky people. I really dislike flakiness. So I don't like it when people change their plans last minute with me.
So I try not to do that with others. That's kind of my own personal analysis. I don't know how you guys see me. Maybe I'm a little flaky to you guys. So I think I answered moderately accurate in terms of that I hate changing plans last minute. Well, and in China or Chinese, we would just call it... Related to this is like Kaopu and Bukalpu, right? And in a moment, I do want to explore...
like the virtue of like not so much about being flaky or not flaky but like what if you were a kind of person where you were okay with plans changed not that you changed them but that you didn't get angry when other people changed them like like what outcomes would that sort of lead to but we can talk about that in a moment what was i was in the middle you were right in the middle yeah i put uh i was the same as you just like moderately accurate
And maybe I was just thinking in terms of specific scenarios, but I was thinking in the specific scenario of where something was planned and I was looking forward to it and I was expecting it. And then it changed and I got pissed off. That's human nature, I feel like, if you think of it that way. Right? Or like, I mean, even little things. Then you connect this to the other question of sometimes when I get angry, it's like, okay, well, I was expecting this, you know, and it didn't happen. Right?
And maybe I put too much faith in it and then I based everything on that one thing and it changed and then threw everything off. And then I blow up. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's move on to another question there. Okay. Or is there more you want to add to that question? The only thing I would want to add to that is that like if you're a person that answered very accurate to that, then the reflection point should be, well, if things do change, how do you embrace it more?
And then if you're a person that is totally like loose with that, do you have an opportunity to be more planful? So it's always like directional, right? Whatever you answered, it's kind of like reflecting on the other side and then kind of asking yourself, would there be certain situations where practicing the other side would be better? You'd be better off. Yeah. And it's also, it doesn't really address, well, maybe it implies, but it doesn't really address the,
one's ability to adapt to sudden changes and plans, right? It's just asking if you dislike it. So you can strongly dislike last minute changes and plans, but once you know it changed, you might be very good at adapting to it, even though you strongly disagree. But I think the question is asked in a way where if you strongly disagreed, it would show that your lack of adaptability in a way because...
If you are someone who doesn't really care, then you would be more adaptable because it shows how you mentally, emotionally view the situation. There's probably some link there. Yeah, for sure. All right, Eric, bring another one. Let's get a juicy one. Okay, let me... I don't know. This one might be a quick one. I barge in on conversations.
That was the last question, actually. Let's answer for Eric. Okay. I feel like this is a roast. Because basically any question you want to answer for me, it's like where I'm bad. Actually, let's answer for Justin because the last one was about you. Let's go back to Justin here. All right, bring it on. I'll go first. I don't think Justin barges in on conversations because if anything, you tend to be more passive.
social situations. Well, let's clarify the question first. In my mind, barging in on conversations is like the Kool-Aid man busting through a wall. You know, like, hey, here I am. Well, I think it's about interjecting your own thoughts. Like Kramer. Yeah, like Kramer busting in through the door. I think what they're trying to say is that, well, let's say we're all having conversations. You just interject your
your opinion you know before they maybe even finish their sentence yeah well no there's a separate question about that right do you let people finish different forms of the same idea okay you know no to me in my mind barging in on a conversation was like someone two people are having a conversation that you're not a part of and you walk into the room and they could be in mid-sentence and you just start talking
about what you want to talk about or asking question or doing whatever like breaking that conversation up let's answer that one i i yeah like like basically you weren't part of a conversation and two or three other people were having a conversation and then you just like hey what's up and then you got into the conversation and that might not be a bad thing but what would you rate yourself on that one yeah i i said inaccurate yeah okay
Yeah, because I think that that's... For me, that's testing your sort of extrovertness. You know what I mean? Your ability to just walk in and adapt yourself to those situations, right? And your social... But it's two-sided. Extrovertness if you can do it well, and then it's just like low EQ if you can't do it well. Like, I'd barge in. I would, like, be... Like, I'd be at work, and, like, three people would be talking about something. I'd just be like... And then I'd just jump right in. And then I don't even know. Like, they...
i i felt like i was pretty smooth but then if you were to ask those people they mean they might be like this guy is a total idiot he doesn't know what he's talking about but i do barge in do you um i don't believe i do playfully for sure yeah yeah he's good at that so you two are bargers yeah we're bargers i'm a non-barger yeah he's a skilled barger i'm an unskilled barger no basically if i hear a conversation or if there's another you know that i'm not a part of um
and I want to put myself in it, yeah, I just hop right in. It's called like 管闲事. Right? Because you're hearing other people and it's like none of your fucking business. You just roll right out. But that's the thing is that if it's strangers, I don't. I'm not good at approaching strangers. But if it's like in a work environment, a social environment, you know what I mean, with multiple friends, stuff like that, I can hop around. That's not a big deal.
I don't think any of us are good at strangers. That's hard, right? That's tough. You wouldn't even know these people. Yeah. Well, okay. So related to that one is like, um, I let others finish what they're saying. I'm leaving the room for this one. I feel like I, I used to, okay. I used to have a much tougher time with this, I feel, but I feel I've gotten a lot better. Like you, Eric, with your emotional rage and anger issues. I think this is something I've gotten a lot better because, um,
And I wonder how you guys... You just dropped that one so casually. I don't know how you guys would feel, but I feel like in the beginning, let's just take this in the context of this podcast, for example. I think in the early episodes, I caught myself, while listening back, cutting you guys off a lot. I realized I was doing that, but I don't think I do that so much anymore. Yeah.
Much less now. Only like... Much less. Yeah, you're much better. Only probably eight to ten times per episode. No, but it's true, though. He did have that back in the day. Because he was passionate. But then all these questions are nuanced. It's like, where do you draw the line? Because if you're passionate, it's great. But then if you don't give people a chance... Because sometimes I have to hold myself back, but I don't do a good job. Okay, in my own defense... In my own defense...
I do it. I feel like I do that only when I kind of know the point you're making already. And I'm just like, okay, I know like where you're going to go with this. And let me just stop you right here because I have a rebuttal for that already. Right. And I know it's not good. It's annoying as fuck. It's annoying for me even when I catch myself doing it.
But that's kind of the thought process behind it. It's like, okay, let's not waste time going down this road because I already know where you're going with this. Here's the rebuttal to that point. But that's actually one of the things that people say that's a bad habit to have because you're constantly guessing what they're saying and you could be wrong. Sure. Right? Sure. But yeah, I think, Justin, you have gotten much better. I think another aspect of that question that might be
a twist to that question is one thing that you do that I've noticed, um, which I want to ask you about, if you ever noticed this about yourself is that you will give, you will give like a comment about something, but then maybe other people will continue the conversation, but then you, you just got to continue that idea or that thought until you're finished with what you're saying. Like finishing, finishing thoughts and finishing sentences. Have you ever thought about that? Yeah, I think. Is that, is that like a reverse of that question? Do you think?
I don't know if it's a reverse of the question. Because one is interjecting, right? It's like not letting you finish so I can get my point across. Another one is I'm getting my point across. Somebody's interjecting, but you're not stopping. You're like, bam, I'm going to continue getting my point across. Which is a great... But you would be great on like fucking MSNBC because those guys are always fucking with each other all the time. And, you know, they just talk over each other. You would be like awesome. I don't want to let people get away with something, you know, by avoiding the question. Yeah.
That's part of it. Another part of it is probably it only pertains to questions that I'm truly curious about. So like, I really want to know. So when you don't answer it to, let's say, my satisfaction, I'll ask it again or ask it in a different way to find out because I'm truly curious about it.
Which can be a strength. Because Adam Grant talks about how every strength can also be a weakness and holding people accountable is a strength as long as you use it wisely. It's kind of like the theme for all of these questions. There really isn't like a right and a wrong. There really isn't. It's like wherever you are on the spectrum, then...
Would you benefit in certain situations from shifting? Oh, for sure. And then is there an extreme that you can kind of go to? I'm curious. I cut people off because I get really, it's the curiosity and stuff like that. Do you guys feel that it's uncomfortable on the show, for instance, or in our normal social interactions where I jump in too quickly? I feel like me and you had a similar problem early on.
But I don't, I don't like, I feel you're much more patient now. You let people finish their point. Having said that, you come up like, you're like, you let people finish your point. Meanwhile, you're like loading the ammo. You're loading the ammo. You're loading the shotgun slugs. You're like, you talk. Yeah. Go ahead. Like, like, like, yeah. Like you, you unleash, you, you, you do your Bankai first. You do your Bankai first. Hit the nitrous first. Right. Okay. Yeah.
Are you done? Okay, now here you go. And then you just unload. You just unload. Because you don't want anyone. I feel like you do it in a really smart way because you know you don't want anyone to cut you off when you're going on your rant. So you don't cut them off.
Yeah, I don't see that problem with Eric either. I don't see him cutting people off. Eric is laughing because he knows it's so true. It's so funny. I want to continue to improve myself. I want to get to a point where I don't feel the need to unload, where just to be more relaxed. Like for some reason, I feel like I need to share everything on my mind instead
And sometimes it's not necessary or you don't have to make every point perfectly. You don't have to land every shot cleanly. But for some reason, I view it as kind of like a boxing match where I want to get clean shots. But honestly, sometimes that's not productive for the conversation or the relationship. I'm trying, but I get very analytical, right? Because then I get into this intellectual mode where I'm like, okay, let's just go...
But I think it's a great thing for the podcast. Like in the context of doing a podcast, I think it's great what you do because you want to break it down and you really want to illustrate your point, which is great, I think, for not only for us listening to you talk, but as being part of the conversation here in the studio with you, I find a lot of benefit in doing that.
You're doing that sometimes. Again, it's situational because you probably don't want to do it at work all the time. No. Yeah, exactly. Which can happen. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's so funny. We're going back to the prosecutor in you, right? Right. Prosecutor. Right.
Talking about the three personalities. I'm a preacher. You're the politician. Eric's the prosecutor. And you just want to prosecute. You just want to give that closing argument. You want the closing argument. You want the last word. So you're just like, okay, you say your piece. I'll give you as much time as you want. Say your piece. But here I come. That's funny. It's good. I like that. I like that. It helps you adjust. Because what's the intention? What's the point behind all this stuff? Is that...
You want to have better social interactions. You want, I mean, and what is a good social interaction? You want to make other people feel better, right? It's not just about you. You want to have more productive conversations. You want to advance the agenda collectively of what you're trying to accomplish. And so all of this stuff is really important. Let's analyze for a quick second on why do you think people do that?
Like the whole idea of interjecting, not letting people finish or crushing the opponent. You know what I mean? Quote unquote. Yeah.
Like why do you think that happens? Do you think it's an insecurity? Do you think it's a constant battle to never lose? Is it like, what do you think it is? - I think a lot of those two things are mixed into it. It's like, I don't wanna lose. I don't wanna lose this argument. It's impatience. It's a lot of things. Yeah, I think it's because you wanna make your point. When you have-- - Why do you wanna make your point?
I don't know. Why do you want to have sex? Right? Like, I think it's just... Just want to? It's just a human urge, right? It's a human urge? Yeah, it's a human urge. To want to make a point? In the context of a debate? Yeah. Well... Absolutely. Okay. You want to defend your own opinions because you are committed and you are defensive about your own opinions and your own ideology that people get very passionate and emotional about that kind of stuff. And I feel like when you have a bullet in the chamber loaded...
We can't wait to pull that trigger. We can't wait to land that shot like Eric said. It's that win-loss mentality, right? Yes. It's a win-loss mentality, but I don't know if the sense of urgency is necessarily a win-loss mentality. The sense of urgency to do it, I think, is just it feels uncomfortable because I feel like when you know you have a point, it feels uncomfortable to...
to hold that in. And the longer you hold that in, the more uncomfortable it gets, where you're just like, oh, I want to say it, I want to say it, I want to say it, I want to land that point. Here it goes. But that's also a personality trait, because not everybody's like that. Not everybody's like that. Yeah.
Yeah. But if you watch enough arguments between people, you find out a lot of people are like that because people are screaming over each other all the time. That is such a great question, right? And what's the implication? Think about this. What's the implication of Howie's question of like, why do we need to make a point? Why do we need to be right? Because it's not just making a point because you're not going to make stupid points. Like, you think you're right. Right.
Think about the implication of that is that that's driving like all the conflict, all the shit in the US between the different sides is because I think you're wrong and I'm right. That's, it's actually like one of the root causes. And I don't know the answer to that. The one thing that I've thought about though was for some reason, the need for certainty. I must've read that somewhere, right? Like that, that theme of like,
Human beings need for certainty for some reason. I don't know why. And then that causes the need for us then to always have a point of view on something, even on a topic we have no idea about. Like we have no context, no information. And then people get into all kinds of struggles and arguments and conflict. And then that's where things are falling apart in society back home. Yeah. Now that I think about it,
I retract my previous statement. I think it is totally about the whole win-loss mentality. I think you're absolutely right. Because I think why it feels so uncomfortable when you have a point, it feels uncomfortable to not say it as quickly as possible, is because between two opposing sides,
It's our nature to want to shut the other side down as soon as possible. It's a defense mechanism. It's a defense mechanism. It's defending your ideology. And to basic human nature, the only way to do that is not necessarily to make your point, but it's to shut the other side down. It's to silence the other side and discredit the other side. And to what Eric was saying, obviously we see that playing out
in all facets of society, right? - That's the biggest problem. - So it's not so much that here is like I'm arguing my point, it's more I'm arguing my point to disprove your point. And that's the ultimate goal. - That's the point. - Yeah, that's the point, is to disprove your point. And the quicker I can do that, the better I feel about my own thinking. - And to go back to Blueprint and Nicholas Christakis,
this goes back to our need to identify, are you with me or are you not with me? Yeah. In group, out group, right? Because that is then a defense mechanism. Like, are you the enemy or are you my friend? So doesn't it feel like that, not to get too political, we can back off after I say this, but in the States, you know, what's happening with the whole division politically, ideologically, like,
There is no end. I feel like there's no end and it's only going to get worse. There's no end at all. And this even goes back to an earlier episode we did, just me and you, Howie, was like the revolution will not be televised. And we were talking about, at that time, it was the George Floyd murder. And we were just saying like,
And we were, I think our discussion kind of ended up trying to be like, okay, well, how can we make the most utopian society? Like what are the necessary parameters in order to get everyone to get along? And I think at the end, we concluded that there is no such thing. You can't do anything. It's because even if we addressed social inequality, even if we addressed race and made everyone the same race or whatever, right?
People would always find, human nature in us would always find something, something to be divided over. And yeah, it's just like... It's funny because that idea of a utopia can only be achieved theoretically and also paradoxically through separation.
You know what I mean? And the whole idea of... That was always your argument. Right? It's like the whole idea of this utopia is like, well, we all are together, loving, and stuff like that. But the only way to achieve that is if we are all like that. And all the people who are not like that get on the other side. Which becomes... It's like a paradox, right? It's a funny thing. The argument, and this even goes back to a comment I made earlier in this episode, is
is that part of getting people to get along is to, and this is going to sound terrible,
This is going to sound terrible, but from a purely scientific, psychological point of view in terms of what we're discussing here is actually to remove diversity. Because when you remove diversity, everyone is the same. Everyone is the uniform. Everyone conforms. Everyone has the same mindset, blah, blah, blah, blah. Same belief system, same prejudices, etc.
And then, okay, well then everyone gets along. And that was kind of like the working hypothesis. But even if that was the case, even those people who are the same in almost every way will end up finding things to be divided over amongst themselves. Eventually. Eventually. And probably rather quickly, you know? So...
So there is no getting rid of that, no matter what you do. Because there's always competition. No matter how similar you are, ultimately, it's a competition for resources. Everything then goes back to the biological imperative of needing to evolve our differences so that we gain a survival advantage.
We're going down such a rabbit hole right now, but I want to continue this because I'm locked and looted and it's my human kind of defense mechanism or urge to keep going with this because I love what you're saying. Okay? I'm not... What I'm saying is it goes so much deeper. Can I say one thing? Like, is that... What if I told you that from question one, when you wanted to expand the conversation to broader society, that I already foresaw that this would happen and that...
I then managed all my responses to get you to that point. And now we're having the conversation you want to have. Now it was total fucking luck. I kind of forgot what I was going to say. What did you say? I was just saying the biological imperative of us needing to fight for resources. Yeah, and survival advantage. That is true. When there is a finite resource,
number of resources, human society is going to fight over that. And it goes back to a podcast you recommended with your undivided attention. And this guest was talking about that and he was saying that a lot. He was talking about- Daniel and a very long name. Yeah, very long last name. He was talking about finite resources and the world is literally a finite resource, right? Everything on this planet is a finite resource.
But even when there aren't finite resources to argue over, I think it's our human nature. That's the argument I'm making. It's our human nature to be divided. It's not actually our human nature always to be united. It is in a way because we need to create tribes. We need to create communities. But like what David Amersager said before is the in-group, right? There is a human nature to create the in-group, the tribe. So there is a unity there.
But the very definition of creating an in-group means that there is an out-group as well. Yeah. They're tied together. They can't, they don't exist, an in-group doesn't exist in a vacuum without an out-group. So they're also, and that argument is, it is also our human nature to also create that out-group, which is our human nature to be divided. One cannot exist without the other. But hold on, but like this is, but then the reason that we want to create that out-group is,
Because resources are always finite. And it's not just in a very simple terms like, okay, food resources. Because once you have food resources, there are other things that you're vying for because you've satisfied that base layer. Let's say it's mates.
mating with other, or whatever it is, shelter. And so there's always something to fight for because then there also is this notion of climbing the hierarchy because hierarchy is just something that is ubiquitous in human civilization. So regardless of whether or not you have this layer of things, infinite resources, then people are after the next thing and the next thing and the next thing, and there's always going to be sort of this competition. So competition in a way seems to be
a core feature of living human organisms.
But I could, like, this is the kind of stuff where, like, some of our Ha Ha Monster episodes, it's like we should have one where we just, like, totally just go off the rails. And then we bring in an expert to kind of, like, set us straight. Yeah. Like on the next one. I love it. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I don't know. I wonder if we're that far off because when we bring the guests on the show, they don't, like, a lot of times they're like, oh, you're right, Justin. Or you're right, Howie. Yeah.
We get that a lot, right? Because we're so smart. Maybe it's because of the free whiskey.
No, but we do that a lot. Like in our own episodes, Haha Monsters, when we have guests on, we revisit a lot of the topics we discuss just amongst ourselves and get their take on it as well. Well, it also goes to show who we actually are as people because we always come and be like, let's just be casual. Let's just talk about whatever. But we always fucking go down to these more deeper topics, you know, about the human condition, about history, about mankind, about space.
whatever, right? And that's what we always fall back onto. And honestly, for anyone that's listening, we really don't intend to do these things. If you were to listen to our conversations with each other before we start recording, we're always being like, hey, let's not go down that road. Let's not go down that path. Let's not talk about division. Let's keep it lighthearted. Yeah, let's not talk about society and division and politics. Let's not talk about any of that. Let's just have a fun, happy episode. But
Every time, inevitably, we go down this path. Somehow. Go down this path. The pre-chatter is always light, right? And then we get on and then we're like, okay, it's about to go down. It's about to go down. But I just, I feel that says a lot because it's like the elephant in the room in a way where that kind of is the...
human condition in like this early stages of this new millennium that we're in. And it's really kind of ridiculous in many ways.
I have a question that I want to ask to the audience. Um, and I would love to hear some feedback. Um, so based off of this episode right now, we kind of stuck around this one. We meandered around this one topic of answering this personality type question. Yeah. Right. And we, and then we just, just went with it. Right. Um,
Do you guys like that? Do you guys like us just riffing on that kind of stuff? Or would it be interesting to have many different types of questions that we just go in and out, in and out, in and out to talk about? So we hit up a lot of different, let's say, common questions.
ideologies, you know, news, entertainment, stuff like that. I mean, you know, that kind of stuff. We've never done that before. Like deep versus shallow. Yeah. We go like deep, right? We go and we just pound that rock and pound that rock. But would it be funner if we just kind of were a little bit more surface level? I think it'd be funner. I think it'd be funner. The...
Funner is a word, man. Like, your grammar is shit, dude. Funner is not a word. Yes, it is. Is it really? I'll look it up. Look it up right now. Motherfucker. Is it? Is funner a word? If funner is a word, you're drinking. Okay. Okay? Is batter a word? It'd be batter. Batter. It'd be so much batter. It is a word, right? Batter? Comparative adjective, funner. Really? Boom, folks. I didn't know that. Look at that. I learned something today. The, uh...
No, I think it's good to have diversity, right? Like you say, we usually kind of end up going down rabbit holes and getting really deep with it. But I think like every now and then we have some shallow episodes, which we always try to do, but it never works out for us.
You know, because we're always trying to like, hey, let's have fun. What I'm trying to say is that maybe we can try one time to be a little bit more like those like radio shows where it's a little bit more like, you know, we have like five topics we're going to hit in this hour, 90 minutes, whatever. And we just kind of flow through it. He's just trying to be looser because he scored 47 on the test and he was unhappy. I'm trying to be tighter. No, looser. This is tighter. What I'm saying right now is tighter because it's actually under a structure.
As opposed to right now, which is loose. No. Define loose and tight then because I'm confused then. Loose. Okay. I think it would be looser because we wouldn't necessarily know what we're going to be talking about and it would be much more lighthearted and reactionary.
I don't know. Okay. I don't know. And I honestly, I don't care anymore. I really don't care. Let's tell people, let's tell people where they can find this quiz. And if they are so inclined to, uh, to go and take it for themselves, take it themselves, share your number.
In the comment section or if you want to write to us. So if you want to take this quiz, it's called the Mindset Quiz. How tight or loose are you? It's a quick quiz, only 20 questions, multiple choice. Go to michellegelfand.com. That's M-I-C-H-E-L-E.com.
G-E-L-F-A-N-D dot com. MichelleGelfand.com to take this mindset quiz. It's kind of fun just to see kind of where you land. And yeah, honestly, look, I feel like the biggest takeaway for me after this whole discussion and after taking this quiz is
It's not necessarily any judgment or anything you're going to do about being tight or loose. Because as we said, there's no right or wrong here. There's no good or bad. There's no badder or worse. Now I'm in my own head about if these are actually words. Anyway, but I feel like it's about going back to the idea of almost division. And it's funny how we got there because I feel like this is my main takeaway is that I feel a lot of the frictions...
between individuals, between cultures, between societies, between nations, between political parties, whatever. Podcast buddies. Podcast buddies. Is actually boils down to understanding that a lot of these frictions are actually frictions between tight and loose personalities. Tight and loose mindsets. Tight and loose mindsets. Like it really is.
If you look about a lot of, like I said, if we look at a lot of the misunderstandings between the US and China, frictions there, a lot of it actually is boiled down to a tight and loose mindset differential. A lot of individual relationships like me and Eric in the beginning was a lot of friction between tight and loose mindsets and that differential. A lot of
corporate cultures between companies or rivals or different teams of different things and is actually a differential between tight and loose mentalities and how they go about solving their problems or go about doing things that they're doing. There's a lot of that difference. And I feel like after taking this quiz, after having this conversation,
When I understand it now, I can approach a lot of things in a different way in terms of how I view it. And if I'm talking to somebody, if I'm working with a group, or if I'm viewing a different culture, if I'm viewing a different society, I can now apply this mindset and this framework to it and see if it applies, right? And see if like, oh, okay, are my opinions now being motivated because of this differential between tight and loose? Tight? Tight?
Or not. But it's a helpful tool, right? Like, it's a really helpful tool in that sense. Yeah. All right. I'm locked and loaded. Wait, hold on. Before you lock and load, just real quickly, just everybody name your scores. What was your score again, Justin? My score...
See, the numbers aren't going to mean anything to listeners, but the score is out of 100. I don't know if they'll take it. Okay, so just to give some context, the score is out of 100. Zero is you're extremely loose. It's the loosest you can be. 100 is the tightest you can be. I scored a 54 out of 100, which puts me in the moderately loose category. Well, we're all moderately loose. We're all, yes. I was 47, Howie.
And I was 46. Which is a total sham and lie. Yeah, total lie. You are not a 46. You are like a 200. Like 80. All right.
All right. Your Honor, jury, here are the closing arguments. Lock and loaded. Here are the closing arguments. I almost have to have the last word. And I almost have to have the last word. So we're almost competing for the last word, by the way. I know. I know. Imagine I had to be like that too. I know. It would be a shit show. I know. It would be a five-hour podcast. It would be fisticuffs. But hopefully I let others finish what they're saying. I loved, I loved, this was fun. Like it was really fun. And I loved like the commentary because it just helped me understand some of my own behaviors better.
And when we talk about these personality things, well, number one, it shows that we can take any topic and basically talk about it on Honest Drink, right? We could take any topic. You're really flexing there. Yeah. Flex on them, Eric. Flex on them. Any topic. Do you smell? What? Eric is cooking. But I think that like, okay, I've gotten the question. The way I'll frame this is that
I meet people sometimes out and about, and some people have heard about the show. And they've heard it from others, but they don't really know what it's about. And they ask me, oh, what's your show about? That's just the most obvious question. And sometimes I struggle, right? I'm like, oh, it's about whiskey drinking. It's about friends getting together. I have all these long-winded explanations. And so every show, I think...
I try to think about, well, what's this show really about? Because it's so meaningful to me and I know it's meaningful to you guys, right? We're going to hit our 100th episode probably in a couple of months. And so like my thoughts right now in this moment after this conversation is that we talk through things so that we can create a map. The reason we want to go deep, and I love to go surface on certain things sometimes to keep it fun,
But the reason we end up going deep is that we are all striving, the three of us, to find a map for us to look at the world outside of us because we don't just live within. To look at the external world and explain what our default reactions are.
explain what we do every day because we kind of go through the motions and really try to understand why we react the way we do. Like every single question on this thing was kind of like, this is your reaction to a certain situation. If you really break down, break it down and go deeper, it's like, this is why your, your childhood, your upbringing, all this stuff factors into it. And not only that, but understanding others and building empathy so that we can
understand each other and the world that we engage with because there's a lot of strife a lot of conflict a lot of bad shit and then build better responses ourselves starting with ourselves building better responses to everyone that we spend time with or interact with so that we can do our part in making the whole world sort of get along a little bit better i think this was like a great exercise so thanks justin for finding it uh you're very welcome eric
You're very welcome. He's like thinking right now. His mind is like, I want to get in the last word. Okay, are you done? Are you done? Okay, let me unload. No, that was well put, man. That was well put. Yeah, look, this idea of tight and loose applies to a lot of things. Even another...
discussion we can save for the future, I want to get a guest on about this actually, is a current hot topic in China, which is about the education reforms going on here. A huge issue right now, a lot of people are talking about. And, you know, I have my own opinions about that, and obviously there are different sides in this and different opinions, but you can also apply the whole tight and loose framework around this.
Which is very relevant. So the point is, it applies to so many things, and I'm just kind of realizing that now. When you put it that way, there's no right or wrong, and then you pass less judgment about it. You're like, oh, that's just a difference between the spectrum we fall on here in terms of our mentalities and our mindsets. And okay, and let's move on. Anyway, cheers, guys. Cheers, boys. Cheers. Cheers.
All right. Yeah, well, you mentioned this, Eric. We will be having our 100th episode coming up soon, relatively soon, which is a big milestone for us to reach 100. So I don't know if any of you out there have any ideas of...
What we should do for our 100th episode. Let us know. What should we do? You can email us, hit us up on Instagram, or put your suggestions in the comments section, depending on which platform you're using. And let us know. Or even in our WeChat group, you can join that and tell us in there. This is for the true fans who listen all the way through. Oh, yeah.
And let us know, because we're trying to brainstorm ideas for the 100th episode. We want to do something special. We want to do something. Yeah. And honestly, not many podcasts get to 100 episodes. Most of them don't. So...
it's a big milestone for us and yeah send us your suggestions because we want to know what you want to do because we wouldn't be doing this without you guys listening so much appreciated there and we kind of want to just hear what you have to say and what you want to hear for this very special 100th episode coming up right on anyway alright guys that's enough from me
Be good. Be well. I'm Justin. Yes. And I'm a little bit looser, Eric, than when the episode started. And I'm going to cut you off. I'm out. All right, guys. Be good. Be well. Peace. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.