#8. Audrey Villegas: The C*nt's Corner
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Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Honest Drink Podcast. We're back at it once again with

Today's episode, we have a very special guest. She is a very accomplished chef from New York City. She has worked under Thomas Keller, Gordon Ramsay. She has worked in restaurants such as Per Se, the London Gordon Ramsay, Reset, The Gander, and she has been a career chef. She has toughed it out in the grueling and brutal restaurant industry of New York City. And she has...

A lot of incredible stories. She's one of the toughest people I know. I respect her a lot. So today we talked about a bunch of things. She shared a lot of stories, a lot of insights into the New York kitchen world. We talked about, you know, the toxic kitchen environments, drug use,

We talked about even the Me Too movement and the PC culture and how that has affected her role as a female authority figure over a very male-dominated industry. And we got into a whole bunch of other shenanigans and chopped it up a bunch. So without further ado, please welcome Audrey Villegas.

So today we're gonna drink the Shilas 18 year. I got this in Japan last time I was there. I just got back.

And you can only get this whiskey in Japan at that specific airport. I was told. So I'm gonna try it. I know you like shiwas, right? Yeah. What do you usually drink, Audrey? What's your drink of choice? I really just like vodka and gin. Oh, not a whiskey person? But I'll try it. Why not? So do you never drink whiskey or do you just tend not to drink whiskey?

No, it was back like a few years ago. I just got piss drunk when I was in college and Jameson what? Jameson shots. Not even shots. I'll get you. No, no, no. Like those party cups, but half of them because you were young and 21. Straight down. And I was like, I'm not drunk. I'm not drunk.

And then back in New York, when you were cooks, you would go to this bar, and of course, it's all connections. You know the bartender, you feed them, blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden, after my two, after like jug two martinis in about an hour, this guy, one of my bartenders was like doing that to the bartender and just Jameson shots.

And you're not drunk, but you still keep going. And all of a sudden, you ended up in the trash. In the trash? You ended up in the trash? What does that mean? Fell in the trash. You just fell in the trash? No, everybody was like, okay, so we're fine. Chef's drunk. Chef's drunk. Chef needs to go home. Chef being you. Yeah. I just live a few blocks away from the bar. So I was like, okay, just walk her home.

i was waiting it's trash day already it's like it's trash it's like around three o'clock i don't even know what happened it's back in the day it's like the happiest days of my life actually so um was waiting for it and i kind of like slipped i was like cleaning in the post and i slipped and i went in the trash like

So you actually fell in the trash? I fell in the trash. Like halfway though, halfway. Because you were so drunk. It was the summer. I remember it was summer as well. It was disgusting. Summer trash in New York is not a good thing. That's a terrible thing. Terrible thing. Terrible thing. So the next day, I smelled. I was like, I woke up. It's like, what is that on my skirt? I was like, it's the trash. It was disgusting. It was fun. It was a fun night. Was that the last time you drank whiskey?

Really? So how many years ago was that? That was like, wait, what was that? 2011. You haven't drank whiskey in eight years? Yeah, I don't do whiskey anymore. And then you get older, it's kind of like, oh God. So we about to get fucked up. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hide all the trash cans. Wait, wait, wait. You can't do that. You can't because I'm not from here.

So here's what we do, Audrey. In the beginning of each episode, we always try a different bottle of whiskey. And because we're all trying to develop our own taste for whiskey and knowledge and palate for whiskey, because we don't really know anything about whiskey either.

So we try one each episode, and we try to learn by drinking whiskey, and we try to decipher it. Analyzing. Yeah, we try to grow our palate a little bit. Try to refine our palate. We're very unscientific. Okay. So we're just saying, do we like it? Is it complex? We're just trying to comment on it. It's pretty light, is it?

I love that. It's pretty light, isn't it? No, because the thing is, I don't really know. It's been like eight years and it's really not my drink. I try to stay away from bourbon, the brown stuff, except for tequila. And then I do like wines, vodka, and gin. I don't even like rum. This has got a little bit of a bite to it, I feel. I think it's a little bit sweeter than the other ones where we've had, at least recently that I had. I think it's very sweet.

It's smooth though. It's smooth. That's why I feel that I'm okay with it because it's a little sweet. It's not as like punchy in the face. That'll happen later. Oh, is it gonna happen later?

So those are the good ones, the smooth ones. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I think it depends on... But that's the irony that we talked about, right? Like, water is smooth. Yeah, you're talking about, like, why wouldn't you just drink a cocktail or a juice, like a Snapple. But those are the kind of drinks that you have to do it neat. Because if not, it's just a waste of time. Not like a drop of ice, nothing. It's just neat. Yeah.

because you get the taste of the purity of it. So that's why. So, Audrey, let me ask you this. When it comes to drinking, right, whether it's whiskey or any other alcohol, in your experience, like chefs, right, because chefs can be very temperamental. They're all characters. Some of them are crazy, right? What do they usually do to kind of

relieve stress like after work or is it just alcohol like it is they drink a lot is that rumor true every chef is an alcoholic I know but that's so cliche though but is it really true like alcoholic druggies name it you've got it

Yeah, especially if you're in your younger years. I remember. Okay, I work at Ramsay. I work at Per Se at Ramsay. These are high-end restaurants in New York City. Okay, so usually if you work in high-end restaurants, international, everybody wants to get in there, even if it's for free. Okay, so my first taste of it coming from California. I went to Per Se. These guys, all English guys, all Europeans.

like they're not used to working 10 hours 12 hours a day in the city they don't know what to do with their lives okay so that's why they started drinking and these guys they drink they used to like work 18 six days straight so as a normal person like with normal health you cannot

possibly do that for a year without nonstop. Can't sustain it. Can't sustain it, no matter what. So that's why they tend to do like a little trunks here and there. When we were younger, that was like the thing in the kitchen, okay? I got to Ramsey. Ramsey, definitely international, okay?

Now from 10 to 12 per se, Ramsey now, because we're in the union, it dropped down to like eight. Now they didn't really know what to do with their lives. What do you mean? Eight hours. Oh, okay. Eight hours. Because in Europe, except for France, especially if you're in England, in London, the hours are like long. They're like 16 to 18 and six days a week.

I mean, that's just like how it is. And in the kitchen environment, nonetheless. In the kitchen environment. You're not sitting in the office. Yeah, no, no, no. In the kitchen environment, you're on your feet, and then you're doing stuff all the time. So when I was at Ramsey International, everybody, all the European guys there, now their workload got cut down to eight hours. Like half. Half. They didn't know what to do. First six months, oh, my God. I just remember my chefs were going to the—

Because these guys are getting in trouble in the bar. They're like knocking each other, like they're getting into fights. So I remember like this Swedish guy, two English guys, and one American guy got into a fight.

Don't know what happened, but I just remember like they called my chef like my head chef right like before that says that Oh, is this your guys? Oh, they're here and blah blah blah blah You have to pick them they couldn't some of them they couldn't handle it because of that But I just remember like the dishwashers they supply those guys drugs. What kind of drugs are we talking about? Okay, so

It's very, very close to me because I work with a lot of druggies. Okay. I do. I do. Yeah, I work with a lot of them. Okay. So what was that drug that, like... Meth? No, not meth. Speed? Kind of like speedish, but not really. Is that cocaine? Crystal? Cocaine? Oh, sure. Cocaine, yeah, right? Or like a...

She's definitely been the drugs in the back. No, no, no, definitely. It's like I remember like one of my sous chefs, he's English. His eyes are always like lit up. So they're high while they're working in the kitchen. Yes, yeah. And it's helping them to like keep them like focused. Oh, no, but some people are like that. My last sous chef, my last sous chef before I opened, I opened a restaurant and my last sous chef, I love him. He was my cook before when I was at Reset and he was my sous chef.

I fired him because he was on drugs. And I said, a couple of years later, I saw him in the lawyer's side. And I just felt that, oh, this is destiny. I love him because he was a good employee. I was a good cook. And he knows my style. And he knows how I do things. And I said, OK, you know what? Maybe this is the opportunity. Since he's clean, maybe this is destiny that maybe he should open the restaurant with me.

Called him up, said, da-da-da. He was very honest with me. He said, Chef, I'm glad I'm telling you that I just got out of rehab. When you saw me three months ago, I was in a bad place. But I'm done doing this, this, this, and that. If you want me, I'll be forever thankful. So he was good for a year and a half. Like, really good. Like, really good. No drugs. Gained weight. Usually, like, druggies are like that.

Because there is no addiction anymore. Yeah, they gain weight when they're sober. They gain weight so much. So, like, this guy was, like, typical, all-American, all-American football from Jersey, big guy, comes from a football family. And he's, like, really good. So for a year and a half, he was like that. He was, like, so big, huge, huge. And all of a sudden, we opened a restaurant. We opened a restaurant in Long Island. So we're all together for six months every day.

Every day, I'm like doing the menus and he was just there to help open the restaurants. For some reason, something clicked. Two weeks into opening a restaurant, the chef owner pulled me. I said, he's using again. I said, come on. Like, how do you know? Because Jesse, which is the chef owner, was a big druggie as well. Name all the drugs, he done it. Done it, he's using again. For me, it was like, you know, I think I was just like in denial about it because...

first of all we were like working non-stop non-stop opening a restaurant is not a joke it's like it's really non-stop i was like stressing like the menus especially it's where we're not in the city anymore we're like you know in long island like people there are like rich trashy rich so so it's kind of it's very trashy rich it's like i just couldn't so i said are you from long island no you're not from long island wait where wait where what's up

I'm sorry for everybody that's listening. No, you were spot on. You were spot on. No, oh my God. You were spot on. No, so see, I live in Oyster Bay. Oh, wow. That's where I was. I was literally born in Oyster Bay Hospital.

Trashy rich. It's so funny. This is crazy, right? It's crazy. It's crazy. That's funny. The whole six degrees of separation thing is just collapsed. No, but the thing is, though, with Hicksville, though, for some reason, when I moved there, it's kind of like, oh, I thought it was just going to be the blackest person there, which I was in Oyster Bay. Mm-hmm.

Me and all these white people, and then there's like a little Honduran community, like where the restaurant was. Okay? And all the Asians are in Hicksville. So that restaurant was in Oyster Bay? Yes. That's right next to Hicksville. Yes. So Sayaset, Hicksville. Is that like a nice part of town there? Well, what? Oyster Bay. Yes. Where the restaurant was. You know, like they were saying, this is like the pitch to me, like moving to Long Island. This is like the Gatsby.

The, what do you call that? The golden something. Like, something. The golden era? The golden era. So, this is, a lot of people, they're very rich. When I say rich, it's rich. Okay. Like, trashy rich. Not like Manhattan, like socialite rich. But what do you mean by trashy rich? Like new money? Adjectives, go. Okay. Trashy rich. Meaning, they will, even though you're rich, you will complain that your wine is not up to here. Because they're used to that.

Okay, so they're old money rich. Like their parents were rich and their parents before them were rich. Old money rich, old money rich, old money rich. Not new. So they got rich through like the Industrial Revolution. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Even though Oyster Bay is owned by this Chinese magnate. Oyster Bay is owned, this Chinese guy owns the whole Oyster Bay. I knew that because when we were talking about real estate. Why can't we be like that? Like real estate, everybody was like, oh, who owns that? Who owns that? Oh, this Chinese guy.

So I was just talking about you about this Chinese and Taiwanese investor. So there's a lot of like Asians in Oyster Bay. Actually not Oyster Bay, but in Long Island. It's just, it's so funny. Now. Now. I don't know when you were there. When I grew up. But the thing is in Hicksville. I was the only Chinese kid in school. Really? The thing is in Hicksville, there's a lot of Koreans.

Let's get back to the story. We're like all ADD here. I know you got ADD like crazy. So wait. So he started using again. He started using again. And then the owner and everyone, y'all found out. No, it's just that he ran out of money three months later.

So money meaning he was lying to the wife that I was paying rent. So what happened? Was he a partner in this restaurant? No, no, no. He was just my sous chef. Okay. So it was like, you know, lying to the wife that I was paying rent, blah, blah, blah. So he talked to Jesse because Jesse said that he ran out of money already. So he asked Jesse for help. So now Jesse sorted out, like, the whole, like, the facility. So he went to the facility, blah, blah, blah, blah. Six weeks later...

He's out. But the thing is, the problem with that though, the problem with the drugs is that the parents, the parents are actually not helping him. Because now I heard that the parents are paying for his rent.

While he's doing something in... So they're enabling him. Yeah, enabling him. That's just enabling him. You cannot do that. I'm imagining him as an adult, though. Is he not an adult? He is, but... Yeah, no, not really. Not because when you... But yeah, when you're a drug addict, it doesn't matter if you're an adult. Yeah, you're a drug addict, no matter what. I remember when we were at Reset, like my...

dishwasher were supplying him pills. Xanax, Perksick, and all that stuff. I knew this for a fact because I would like see like bags. So it's all like uppers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all like uppers. But now with this one. Wait, is Xanax a downer or an upper? I'm not sure, but it's just that I just doesn't want to, there's like, and I'm not sure. It's a whole other language for me. I'm not really sure. Well, I do pop Xanax when I fly.

Well, it helps you go to sleep, right? Yeah. So that's a downer. It calms you down, right? It calms you down. And then, yeah, I think so. So what do you think it is about working in the kitchen environment that's so intense? It's stressful. It's stressful. It's stressful. Imagine, like, you have to be perfect for, like, a certain amount of time. And if this is not perfect...

So let's just say you give me something and it's not perfect. The whole entire time will be fucked. Well, I know. I know from experience. I know. It's just the stress of it. But in New York, in the New York kitchens, in the city, is it a whole... Do they take that to a whole different level? Yes, of course. Especially like 10 years ago. Now it's like whatever. But 10 years ago, yes, everybody was good. 10 years ago, it's like even the family. Even like family families or like the food that we eat.

at a certain time. So each station cooks something. The family meal? Family meal. Even that is like... Well, they have that at every restaurant. So when I used to work in LA, it was like that. But I'm thinking New York must be even more intense. No, no.

When I'm talking about family, can I just put salad? It has to be something because if not, everyone's going to make fun of you. Yeah, it's got to be good. That's the meal for the day for everyone. Everybody's good, so you take time to do that. But it just has to be perfect, especially in high-end restaurants like Berset and Gordon Ramsay. It takes time. So to clarify...

For everybody here, family meal is the meal that all the staff eat. And it's made by one of the chefs, one of the cooks. One of the cooks or like... So usually they rotate through the cooks. Like, you know, today this person makes the family meal, next day another person makes the family meal.

So, and everyone is, depending on that meal, that's their meal to eat, you know what I mean? It's not just for fun, it's really for food. So if you make a shitty family meal, the other chefs, the other cooks get really pissed because, you know, that's what they do. That's the only, because that's the only time that they eat. The only two, like, I remember, like, most chefs are like this in the morning. Quark, which is like, you know, a big jug of coffee. And that's it, and water all day.

That's how they supplement everything. So imagine that. It's like, how bad is that? So you don't eat anything. You have coffee. Probably like five cups a day. And then you just realize. And everyone's in a pissy mood already. Because no one really wants to be there. And you just realize at 10 p.m. that you haven't eaten anything. It's just a banana. And then you just be like, fuck it. It's okay. Let's go to the pub. And you just jug beer.

But I feel like for my, okay, so I was never a cook, but I was a waiter in restaurants. And whenever we had the family meal, basically if we were slammed that day, family meal was really basic. If it was like a little bit more like controlled environment, family meal was pretty good. Yeah. That's why it sucks being the person to have to make family meal because you have to make family meal while you're still prepping your stations.

- Yeah, you don't stop. - Other people aren't gonna prep your station for you. - Yeah, you don't stop. - You're still responsible for all the things you're normally responsible for. And prepping your station usually takes up all your time anyway. And on top of that, you have to watch over the meal, you have to do everything, and then you have to pressure people like you. - Because if you're not ready,

You go down. You will go down. It's more like organizations. You will go down. I always tell my cooks that if you're not ready, you will go down. Sack of shit. So what was it like working at a Gordon Ramsay restaurant?

It's intense. Was he on site ever? He was. The first six months he was there because it was his first restaurant. Because, you know, I think he was popular before he even opened a restaurant in the States. That was in 2006. Was this per se or just random? Quarter ransom. Quarter ransom. Okay. So he was even, like, yeah, I remember, like, I don't know. So when did you start that job? Seven. Oh, seven. Okay. They started because, okay, I started six months after they opened.

Okay? Because I was a per se prior to that. That was his first restaurant before and after getting famous in America. Hell's Kitchen. I think Hell's Kitchen was like a year before. The show, right? The show. The show. I'm not sure like what year Hell's Kitchen was, but I remember the London, New York was his first restaurant.

So what was the environment like? It's intense because these English guys, imagine, that's what they used to. I remember seeing Gordon Ramsay and Mace. There's two restaurants, okay? Mace is their casual restaurant, and Gordon Ramsay is the fine dining one. You'll just see the Europeans and the Asians on Gordon Ramsay. And then the prison- The Americans. The Americans. The prisoner looking. The prisoner looking, like the exes.

The ex-con looking, the tattooed ones, everything was on Ramsay. You see that. I didn't realize that. Oh, the Asians are working the fine dining. Because I just see it. It's like all this Europeans and then us. I remember it like me.

There's two Koreans the Korean which is my that's funny. It's like so stereotypical But is that stereotype true because it really is a stereotype that Asian chefs are just a lot more like like precise Oh, yeah, definitely. I only hire Asian people if I can really So in your experience you found that to be true? I'm Filipino. Yes. I'm Filipino It's just so funny because my my I had a Korean cook and then my sous chef

Curtis. So sometimes like this fucking white guys are like just like tormenting my kid. And I was kind of like, fuck you guys. Nobody touch him. Nobody fucking touch him. I was kind of like, you better get the Asian privilege again. You're like, I always protected that. So there was an Asian privilege. Yeah. No, with me, yes, because the fact of the matter is they're good workers.

They tell them what, and they know what I want. But where are they from? Like, really from Korea? Korea, China. They're not like, like, like, they're really from Korea. Or are they like American born? No, no, no, no, no. I don't know. No, no, no, no, no. If you're a bit American. Totally different. Don't you think? Totally different. Yeah, like, like, Howie was like lazy as fuck. No, totally different. See, the thing is, it's totally different now. The American, the American Chinese. You eat two family meals a day. Totally different. American Chinese, American Korean, totally fucking different.

Totally different from like this. So you feel that's an accurate stereotype. It is. It is an accurate. No, no, no. It is very accurate. It's very accurate because you like talk, I talk to like my old bosses or like my friends that are bosses now. They're like, what the fuck are all these Asian guys anymore? Like Asian kids anymore. Like we don't see them anymore in New York. Nothing. None of this. Before 10 years ago, everybody has this like

Asian girl, like, peeling fava beans, like, downstairs, like a ninja. It's, what do they call it? In school where, you know, the minorities get...

can get into school was affirmative action so it's like almost like affirmative action um for asians because you know i say that because i think i feel the very fact that i was asian is the whole reason why i even got a job at providence in the first place yes we're in culinary so for you guys who don't know me audrey and i went to culinary school together right so we've known each other for a very long time

And I was one of the few students at that time that was in culinary school but also working in a real restaurant at the same time. And Providence of all restaurants, which was like super, it was like the most fine dining. And I think the only reason why I got that job, because I don't know how the hell I got that job, right? I'm like, in culinary school, I'm like, I just went in. I just walked into the kitchen one day and talked to the chef. And I'm like, look, you know, can I get a job here?

And he looked at me, he's like, he looks at me, he's like, come back Tuesday. And I'm like, okay, come back Tuesday, boom. I start working right away. And you know, back in the day, like about, like what, 14 years ago, those are like really intense. That wasn't an easy position to get. I found that out, I was naive because I didn't know how,

how coveted that position was until afterwards. - It is intense. Those are the staff that, oh, just because you apply, I'm not gonna take you. But now it's like, whatever, now. Now you can get any jobs anywhere in New York, LA, San Francisco. - With that background, right? - With that, with that? Like if you-- - Yeah, that's what he-- - No, no, no, no, no. 14 years ago, you will never-- - Michael Cimarusti was the chef then. He was on like Iron Chef and all these things. So I remember the first thing he said to me

On Tuesday when I went back, what he said to me was like, "Look, if you do well here, I know the pay is shit, but if you do well here, you bust your ass."

An education here will lend you any kitchen job in the world. You will have your own podcast one day. Wait, how much does it pay? It's like if you work for Apple, you can go anywhere. That was shitty. Yeah, it was around seven something. Hey, that was like my thing. So my first job, oh my God, per se, I was crying. Imagine, okay, I didn't realize what I was getting to. I was 23.

"Dad, I'm moving to New York. I got an internship." It's either Chicago, it's either Trotters or Persitt. I said, "But I really wanted to go to New York." I said, "Dad, I got an internship in New York. I'm moving." My dad, "Why New York? Why can't you just be here?" I was kind of like, "I really want New York." Dad was kind of like, "Whatever. I'm not going to do anything." Try not to whisper with Dad. "Oh, I'm not going to help you." I was like, "I'm not going to help you. I'm not going to do anything. Imagine, 23, blah, blah, blah." "So I moved to New York." I said, "I knew that I was going to come back. I wasn't going to come back."

I got a room in Harlem, 110 Central Park North. Okay? At least there's a window. There's a window. Twin bed.

I was crying. It was not that nice at that time, right? No. At that time, it was still pretty... And I have to admit, remember, I underestimated you. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was like New York. Because you grew up here. It's kind of like New York. Because we went to culinary school in California together, right? And so, and then in class, she would turn to me. She's like, you know, I'm going to get a job in New York. I'm going to do all this.

And I'm like, and I just, and I looked at her. I remember at that time. And then I'm like, I looked at you and told you like, look, you're not going to make it in New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I told you dead to your eye. I looked big in the eye. I'm like, you're not going to make it in New York. You're going to get killed in New York. And I said, I told her, this motherfucker thinks that I cannot make it to New York. Like, watch. No, because you came from, you grew up in Orange County, right? You grew up in Orange County. I'm like, this Orange County Cali girl, man. You're going to go to a New York kitchen, especially as a female, right? Like, you're going to go there and then.

I'm like, you're going to get murdered there. And then now, all these years later, you're very successful there. You end up running the kitchens. Yeah. And you're in charge of all these men who are under you.

So what was that journey like? Especially, I think, as a woman going over there, especially in the kitchen scene, it's very masculine. You know, now with all this Me Too, feminism, whatever that's not, I never really thought about that because I was just doing my job. Because in the beginning, I was always like, yes, chef, yes, chef, put your head down and do the work. Because that's what the norm. And I never really get out of that norm, but it's just that...

I know what I want. And then I didn't really work hard to get where I was. It's just that the talent that I had speak, it's speak for itself and everything just fell into my lap. So did you, I never really like work hard. It's just that like this bosses of my Ramsey were like, they call, used to call me pumpkin. I don't know. It's like, call me pumpkin. I just, did you find that sweet or offensive? Well, I was green. Imagine from orange. Like it's just the US European guys. Like,

They're like showing me attention. Like this guys, okay? I would just tell you about background about my bosses. Like this boss, Josh Emmett, he's very successful right now in New Zealand. He has a MasterChef in New Zealand. Very like celebrity-ish in New Zealand. Usually like every year, all of Ramsay's like heads will come to New York and do something. Like, you know, kind of like a meeting. For some reason...

I don't know how, one day I was hanging out with one of my sous chefs and then Josh called this sous chef and then said, do you want to meet us? It's kind of like, oh, but I'm with Audrey. Okay, sure. Bring her along. So, like, I was just hanging out with all this, like, Jason Adephan was there as well. Okay. Okay? All these big chefs were, like, used, like, Ramsey used to, like, one of Ramsey's head chefs and we would just go to strip clubs. Imagine. So they just took you to strip clubs. It was a coma. It was a coma.

And I was just hanging out for some reason with my sous chef. I was a cook. Were you the only girl? Yes. And they were like saying, we're in the cab. They were like, pumpkin, we don't talk about this, okay? I was like, yeah, of course. Me? Of course I'm not going to talk about this. Bye.

look at you in the kitchen tomorrow. No. Of course. I was like... So they just took you in like one of the boys. Yes. All the time. All the time. So that's why our relationship, like, that's why I think, like, Josh and I, which is my boss, our relationship started. He always, like, he always favored. Not because of, like, you know, I'm a girl and I'm, like, sweet and whatnot. Just because I think he saw something in me as well. If I was dog shit...

He will never, they will never give me attention. Your character and talent prove it. Yes, I don't think if I was talk shit and I was just like, la la la la, and I'm just like doing this thing, I don't think they will give me attention. I think you were also just tough enough to be in that kind of environment. Like even if people were in that same shoes as you, where maybe they didn't feel any like upright like sexism or it wasn't, you know, they were liked, right?

But that's still just a really tough environment. You have to have a really thick skin just to be there. Oh, super. But the thing is that, the thing is when I was there, just like saying, that was like my first year in New York, 2007. After being like, I'm not going to say it. After being like, it was like really hard per se. It was like really hard. These people are like, the cooks, they're like, they're snobby and they will never help you because you were just on the cunt corner with them.

They call me. The what? The cunt's corner. The cunt's corner. Because you're a female? No, no, no. Just because you were at the bottom pit. If you're an intern. They don't care about you. You're like untouchable. Yeah. You're doing garmage. Not even garmage. You don't touch the line. You were in the back. You weren't even on the line. No, not even on the line. You're not even. You were prep.

Doing prep? Yes, doing prep but on a different, on a low side. Oh wow. Like super low. Prep on the low side? Like low. How does it even get low? Like garlic cutting or... Or dishwashing? Or like what are you doing? No, no, no. Your chervil, like this herb needs to be perfect. The tip of the chives need to be like perfectly like one inch. They all need to be the same length. Same, same length. So it's kind of like, like it's very jockish.

Right? And then hazing a little bit, right? They're always hazing the new people. And then they make you do, it's like a train, it's very hierarchical. Of course. Like military. It comes from a military background. The positions, the sous-chef, all the hierarchy in the kitchen comes directly from military. And you don't even talk to the sous-chefs. You talk to the

the sous chef that was in charge of that little corner. We don't talk to the chef, but I, you know, I mean, I got that internship from New York, so I just wrote, like, oh, this, this, and that. So it's like, okay, come to New York. So I came to New York 2006? No, six, something like that. No, six, yeah. It was 06, right? I think it was about that time you moved to New York. Yeah, it was about that time. So 06, and then I came in one month, I checked it out, and the chef was like, okay, fine, you start working.

And that was it. Two months later after graduation, like I know two months later, I moved to New York and just that was it. But three months and I lasted four months in the company. So after my internship...

It was like really tough. Imagine that. I was not used to it. And then you really scrub the tiles, the floors, everything. Everything. It was like really tough for like a girl who didn't have any experience and didn't know what's really happening in New York City. Plus, I didn't... I wasn't used to walking. And everywhere you walk in New York City. And then the room was like...

Half of this. It's a closet, yeah. Half of this. And then there's like a little fake closet. And at least there's a window. And then a twin bed. So I was crying every day. Of course. You got lucky you got a window. I know. That's why I was like thinking. But it was a fake room. Yeah. It was a fake room because the lady had a big living room. So she just divided another room. So she rents that room and then the other room.

Okay, so we pay her rent, plus she gets an additional $600 a month on top of that. You know, I didn't realize that before, but she was nice. I will never survive New York without her.

So was it just like a combination of just being homesick and tough living? Homesick, yes, yes. And then having to go into the kitchen every day? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And plus the fact that I just didn't want to. I would never cry to my dad because my dad would say, just come home. And then I told you so. I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to be like that. I didn't want to be like that. But I stuck it up. And then a friend of mine said that, hey, Ramsey's opening. Ramsey's opening.

a restaurant maybe you should you should you should apply there my friend is there imagine i was getting paid 60 hours a week okay 300 after tax that's nothing yeah and my rent was like 8.50 dollars an hour i know my rent was like that's like starting cooks like my rent was eight of this all right like you know what like that's it like i saved up money but so what do you think

Pushed you through all that like what what kept you motivated because most people would have quit. Yeah Yeah, definitely Ramsey came along Ramsey over in the 1850 1850 and at this thing and then now how long were you at Ramsey for three years? And then so where did you just start you start off just as a line cut? Yeah, I was in the cunt corner. No, no, not even a line cook You don't just start as a lanko. Okay, you're way and come on now. No, no, no, you just start as a line cook So you're in the bottom bottom

So you're in the corner, like, picking herbs and whatnot. Like, asking all the chefs if they need anything else. That's what you do. So I did that for two months. Two months I did that. And then I got promoted. I got promoted to entremet. Entremet is the vegetables. But I'm not a cook. I'm just a girl that pots all. Wow, so they were very well-staffed there.

Because I never worked in a kitchen where as a cook you had support from like you had your own interns basically. Like giving you pods and picking herbs for you. That was unheard of. The thing is with the setup at Ramsey was that the vegetable, the entremet, picks up everything. So he or she needs a backup. So I'm like the barback for him for some reason.

He, like, that main cook, like, fought for me. He's like, no, I think Audrey's great, blah, blah, blah. Two months in there, I got promoted to fish, like, yeah, poissonnier. I got promoted. Fish prep or on the line? No, fish cook on the line. Didn't know anything.

But that's strange. Why would they put you at fish? Fish is usually the last position. Fish is usually the last line position they usually put you towards. Because it's one of the more delicate meats to work with. Yeah, definitely. And it's very easy to overcook or undercook. So you have to really know what you're doing. I'm telling you, okay? This is like me, one, two. Two Asians. Me and this other girl, Korean girl. Two girls and one Asian boy. The Asian boy always gets yelled at.

Poor kid. I got yelled at a lot. Poor kid. Poor kid was kind of like, go home, get the fuck home. You've like, you've got to fuck off. But of course, you're strong. You just don't go home like that. Of course, if you go home, you're like a pussy. They don't do that. I went home. You don't, you don't, you're like, I'm going home.

I fucking went home. I got up out of there real quick. No, no, no. You don't do that. You don't do that. Of course, you have to like... Okay, see you later. I don't like, you know, you have to prove... Watch cartoons. I moved to fucking Shanghai, motherfucker. I got as far away as I was like, what? You have to prove that you're like strong. You have to prove that you're strong. So now, it's so different now. So now, they're pitting us together. Two Asian girls. We're both good. Mm-hmm.

She's the only one that I get insecure about. She's the only one. She's a friend. But she's the only one I get insecure about. She's precise. She's like those girls that are like, like precise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Precise. Korean girl. Precise. Does she take notes? Like that girl in our culinary class. What was her name? Oh.

That real alpha girl that had to be the best at everything, you know her? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot her name. Whatever the name is. She's not cooking anymore, is she? I don't know. I don't fucking know. I think I'm the only one who's cooking. Oh, and Thai. So she's like precise. And you get insecure like that. You're like 24. Then it's like, oh, yeah, I usually did this better. So the sous chef's like, I usually did this better. So you shouldn't cook meat better. So like, so...

She was in the past with the chefs and I was in fish and she was just there. She was just like a ninja. She was just like, she's like really precise. She's like,

Now it gets mental now because you're young, you want to prove to your boss that you're better than anybody else. Now it gets mental. So what happened? Did that push you? Did you move past Phish? Yeah, of course. I moved past Phish. So what was the next position? Saucier. Saucier, which is sweet. Of course I moved past Phish.

But I'm just saying, so if she cuts this fish like that precise in that amount of time, oh, I should do it better in this X amount of time. So you have to do it quicker and better. Quicker and better and cleaner.

So that's what's the thing. That actually was a big deal because that will actually, that made me better in butchering meat, butchering fish. That just made you better. Well, but the thing is back then, like that, you know, I mean, it's tough because you guys are friends.

And they're pitting you against each other. But it was, like, all healthy. So what happened at the end? At the end... You won out. No, at the end, she had to, like, leave Ramsey because she had to deal with her visa. She's on a student working visa. And now she went to another restaurant in the United States of America. Did you call immigration on her?

"No, we were friends." You called her a Gratia? No, I did not call her a Gratia. Every night she'd take her knives and just like... Make them really dull. Make them all dull and stuff. And it's like, "Yes, um, yeah, I think, uh, there's a Korean..." No, but they're intense like that. Asians, Asian like cooks are intense like that. Yeah, Asians are definitely the more competitive of the bunch. Oh, very, very, very. And they won't comp-- they, they, they'll-- and if there's another Asian in the vicinity, they'll compete with that other Asian first. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Because they know that the white people are--

like dog shit it sucks yeah Providence there was two other Asians there with me and then they were always competing against me I'm like and I wasn't like trying to compete with them like I was just like trying to like just like you know just like do my work and just you know do whatever and just make my books I was very naive at that time right and then they were almost like really competitive and I didn't chop and staring yeah I didn't I didn't understand where that aggression was coming from I really didn't

And they would even do things intentionally at that time to sabotage me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. To make me look bad in front of the other cooks. Of course, of course. And that's what really rubbed me the wrong way. And there was one moment where I had a blowout with this one Asian guy. And in front of Samarusti. In front of, you know, the chef, right? And I just blew up at him. What did he do?

I was in a locker, right? We're in the fridge in a big walk-in. And then I was... I forget what I was preparing, but...

And then he said something, and it was a big, it was an accumulation of a lot of things that he had done previously. Right? And I just blew up, and we just started screaming at each other. And then the chef was just like, look at me. He was like, okay, guys, it's cool. And we just went back. But ultimately, it just, it was just a very, I felt it was just a very toxic environment. Yeah, it's very toxic. Like most kitchens are, I think. It is, it is. It is a very toxic environment. You know what I tell my cooks now? It's just, guys, it's not rocket science. It's just cooking. Enjoy it. Because I've been to a toxic environment.

And I don't want that. I remember all of us were just popitating because we're late. I was like, oh, my God, it's 530 and it's the start of the shift and we're not ready yet. So that's what it is. Well, that's the thing now, though, because I think in the past, because...

The culinary arts and being a chef and the F&B scene have become so famous now, right? There's so many documentaries about it. It's like a popular thing now, right? It's a trendy thing to be a chef in a restaurant. Oh, yeah, definitely. Whereas several years ago, several decades ago, it was not. It was not. It was a shitty job and all that. It was a shitty job. But now it's like high profile, right? Prestigious. Prestigious. There you go. And it's trendy. It's cool, right? It's hip. It's hip.

And now, before when I was coming up, a lot of these young chefs, they felt like,

When they got their own kitchen and had to manage their own people, they felt like they had to make it almost a toxic environment to be like a legitimate chef, right? Definitely. They had this mentality like, if I'm not like the worst person to you in the kitchen and it's not a toxic environment, I'm not doing my job as a legitimate chef. Yes. Because all the famous chefs that came before them, all the big names were...

were like legendary in terms of how tyrannical they were, right? And how like there was a dictatorship, it was like crazy, there was all these crazy stories. Exactly, right? So everyone felt like they had to live up to that. But that's not true. I think more and more now, a lot of younger chefs are coming up now thinking like, well, the environment doesn't have to be like that. It can actually be a pleasant environment and we can still be very productive and very good. Yeah, that was like what I did. That was like what I did in 2011 when I first like handled my kitchen. I was kind of like, I don't want this.

because it was like a tough kitchen. Like those kitchens are tough, but you cannot just yell at them just because they're not ready. Just trying to explain to him that what's the consequence of you not prepping at a certain time and you're not finishing it. Because if not, you're just going to go down. Of course, there's occasionally a yell at them occasionally, but that's just occasion. I always like to tell them a briefing before the service starts. Okay, 5.30, 10, I'm the boss.

I'm sorry if I yell at you, but after that, we're all friends. I usually do that. I usually do that. Oh, my God. The reset was a small kitchen. I'll be like, you fucking useless piece of shit. Where is it? I let them cry, but at 10 o'clock, we would go to the bar near reset, and it would all be good. And everybody was like, oh, my God, the chef just called her a useless piece of shit.

Until now, so they're friends, they're all friends. - So funny. - They're all now, they were telling me, my old coxswain always tell them, "Oh, did she call you a useless piece of shit already?" I was like, "Oh, no, no, not yet." But because that was it. I was young and I was in this environment, as much as I wanted to control my anger,

I have something to prove. It's like if they weren't called a useless position, they weren't initiated yet. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Well, this goes back to our previous podcast where we talked about what's the better motivator, right? Like, so when you were running a kitchen, right, is, were you more about, like, punishing people who underperformed or incentivizing people to overachieve? Like, where did you lean more towards in terms of running kitchen staff? Well, like,

Not like, neither then, neither. I don't think I punish people because they suck or give them incentives because they're good. At the end of the day, like, neither. Well, you had to motivate people. Like, I have to motivate people. Like, I always, like, this is my always thing. Like, I would pull them aside at the end of the night. It's like, what did you do wrong? Why did I yell at you about this time? I'm just trying to explain it to them. Imagine I was 28.

I didn't know shit. I was just like, everything that I've learned was from the yelling, throwing pans and whatnot. But now, because I'm a little bit mature back then, I was kind of like, okay, so what's the best way to do this? I still yell. I will still yell at you. But let me, let me like, let me like,

Put this in a very, very mature way for a 21-year-old, why I yelled at you. So you were trying to relate? Yeah, relate to them. Like something's like, okay, because you know what? Back in the day, I was telling them back in the day, if you did that to my old boss, you'll be out. Well, do you think the people under you, if you were to put yourself in their shoes, they're performing out of...

fear of not getting yelled at? Or are they performing out of, they know that they're going to get some sort of, you know, reward or some sort of... Both, both, both. Like, were they trying to please you or were they trying not just to be yelled at? Both, both, both, both, both. But the thing is, I guess, the thing is, saying to the cook that, hey, good job, good job, it was a really good job, goes a long way.

they will make you feel better it will make you like really feel better especially coming from because it's rare in the kitchen it's just really rare in the kitchen everyone will give you anything i was like always like say like thanks guys thanks for thanks guys thanks for the uh uh thanks for a good service something like it goes a long way because but that's everyone but when you single someone out and tell them they did a good job that goes a really long way that doesn't happen yeah that yeah that was that's powerful it's powerful because like imagine like when you were the you know

The cook. The C's corner. Right. Yeah. And so you don't know what the fuck's going on, right? And people are yelling and getting scared. Then you get even more nervous. And you're trying to bust your ass. You're trying to observe everyone else do the job. And then you're trying to get better. And then maybe one day you have a good day and you cut that shit, you know, whatever, the herbs in a pretty good way. And you've been trying. Yeah.

Right? You've been trying. So then the guy who really knows his shit, who has decision-making authority, comes over, sees you do it in the right way, and says, damn, like, that's pretty fucking good. And that's all he has to say. But you've just put in, like, three weeks of effort, and then that connects the dot with that. And then you're like, oh, like, I'm actually not that bad at what I do. And this guy thinks I'm good. And then, bam, like, that's probably worth, like, two weeks of hard work. Yeah.

Absolutely. And so it's not even about incentivizing or punishing, although that happens in the natural course of things. It's about connecting the progress of what you're doing to the success of the kitchen or to the expertise of the head chef. And then you kind of look at him as a mentor, I suppose. And then if you see them as a mentor, you're just going to work harder. If you're just a dick tyrant...

then they're just going to do shit because they're afraid of you. But if you're a good mentor, they will go through walls with you. Yeah, yeah, there you go. See, that's the difference, though. Good point, good point. See, I'm trying to do that. I'm trying to be their mentor, not trying to be a tyrant. I'm not trying to be, like, the general. I'm trying to be their friend in a way that...

That, I like that though. This is like what I like in my kitchen. I teach them how to do stuff. That's why I like that kid. The kid is like, the kid has been in America for four years. The Korean kid. Barely knows English, but can speak English. Didn't have any experience and whatnot. So this fucking white dudes that are like 41 that are my cooks in Long Island, we're like tormenting him. I see it.

I see it. But like how were they coming? Like this guy was kind of like whatever so when we were cleaning instead of like saying they would share like soap he would just like grab it to him and he was just like just bullying. Bullying. It's kind of like I pulled the white guy and said dude what the fuck?

What the fuck? You can't just do that. I said, you can't do that. You can't do that. Even though everybody knows that I protect him. Like, you can't just do that. That's just like foul. Like, what's the problem? It has to be something. Intimidation. Yeah. It has to be something. It has to be. It's not the kid because the kid is just the kid.

The kid is like the kid. It has to be something. It's like, oh, chef, I'm sorry. I'm sorry if I did that. I know, I was like, you know, it was like a foul, foul, foul, foul moment for me. But, you know, I'm just like stressed. Okay, but you cannot do that to him. You just can't. You know, you just can't. It's just bullying. That's the only thing that I hate about. Like, I never, never, never wanted anybody to feel bullied in my kitchen. Ever. Ever, ever. Because I've been through it and I don't never want it. And it changed the next day.

And then, you know, this kid was like, you know, like he barely speaks English. Who changed, the kid or the people that were bullying him? No, the bully, the good. He's 41. So you had to talk with him? Yeah, I got to talk to him. That dude's probably a dad. It's like, do you want your fucking kids to be bullied out of school? Yeah, he was like, and I was fucking, like, it's kind of like, yo, dude, give it a break. It's like, why would you do that? Just little things like that that like really annoys me. Which is like part of,

Of the norm in the kitchen. Like, you know, like, you know. Bullying always comes from insecurity. Yeah, yeah, of course. Or frustration. Speaking of bullies, okay. Mm-hmm.

What did you find? Did you find any difference between Gordon Ramsay's TV personality versus, like, the real him in a kitchen when there's no cameras? Yeah, of course. He was super nice. He was super nice. He was super nice. It's just that it's like all the facade. It's just like a front. It's a front. Makes sense. So his TV personality, him being, like, a crazy guy, like, yelling at everyone, like that, you never saw any of that in the kitchens? Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Yeah.

The guys though, his head, they yelled. Especially when we have a... Because in the kitchen, we have a... So this is the kitchen. Chef's table is right here. And then the whole kitchen. So the chef's table, like, they rented the chef's table for the $3,000 for like 10 people. Which is like 10 years ago. And then so, we serve them there. So chef's table, like, sees everything. Obviously, if there's a chef's table...

You know, it's all VIP. No, it's not all VIP. If you pay $3,000 for that night. You're a VIP. Yeah, a little bit VIP. But I was kind of saying that, okay, here we go. It's like, oh, fuck. We hate it every time there's a chef's table because that means the bosses will act out.

It's kind of like they will yell at you for no reason. It's like they have to put on a show for that. I said, ah, fuck my life. It's like you're living in a fishbowl at that time. It's like, you useless piece of shit. Yeah, yeah. Do that this year again.

I know, they do. They do. You piece of shit. They do that. They do that. Like, they would yell at me. I remember, like, one time I was at Entrepreneur. Pumpkin! They were, like, they were yelling at me. I was kind of like, you okay? I was like, yeah, of course. It's like, that's the charm of it, I said. They were, like, you know, very careful about it. But it was back in the day. Imagine back in the day, there's no Me Too yet. There's no being a feminist and all that bullshit yet. Oh, it wasn't as dangerous to be a guy. It wasn't dangerous as a guy. Now you do that? Fuck that.

Yeah, I'm curious because you brought up the whole Me Too thing. And I'm just curious because I feel like we're in a bubble here in China. And what's happening... What do you mean? So Me Too, the movement. The Me Too thing is non-existent here. You told me about that. Yeah. So there's no... There's not that kind of sensitivity here as... Not at all.

Really? Yeah, like America is ultra sensitive right now, right? So ultra sensitive. It's like extreme. Extreme. Where like, politically correct, it's like ultra PC culture right now. You know what? That's just like, see the thing is, I think everyone can do this. It's a witch hunt now. It's kind of like, now it's like too much. Now it's too much. Now it's too much. Now it's too much. Now it's too much.

Now it's too much. I used to think I was one of the most liberal people I knew. Now I feel like I'm like the most middle. Now I feel like I'm conservative. Yeah, you know, like, you know what? Like, it's good in a way, but it's bad in a way. It's kind of like, get out of here. It's like, it's, I mean. Is it really like walking on eggshells? Oh, especially now. Is it really? Even coming from a woman's perspective? Yes. You cannot just do that. Let's just say, like for a playful.

If I, like, touch your ass like that, I can't do that because I'm a boss. You can't do that. But I'm just saying. I'm just saying, like, you, like, being an asshole, you know all this stuff. It's kind of like, oh, yeah. But do you think it would be the same? But I'm not getting... The thing is, I'm not going to get sued because I don't have a name, but Jesse will. Yeah, because they're targets. This is what's happening. Not Maury Batali. This is what's happening with John Besch. John Besch is this New Orleans chef. Pretty big. Like, you know, because, you know, New Orleans chef. So...

That's not necessarily did the whole thing. It's just that I'm John Bash and you're my chefs. And you torment the hostess and the waitress. But I see it, but I don't stop it.

Now, you, waitress, sue him. But since I'm the big name, I get sued. You go down. I go down. All the headlines are about you. Yes, all the headlines are about you. So now, because of you. So it's almost as if you directly were tormenting them. So now, because you, what you sued him and what you did affects me and my corporation. And now, everybody's like, fuck. But Tally, definitely a pick. Because I saw it.

You saw it? I saw it. What do you mean? I remember when we were at Spotted Pig 13 years ago. It was the hottest day. Spotted Pig. Yeah, have you been? Yeah, delicious. Back in the day? Because Spotted Pig is two blocks from Merced, so we were always there. So Batali, which is like Mac and Waitresses and stuff.

He was a superstar. Like with his disgusting hair and orange flip slippers. Did he really wear the Crocs around? Yes, yes, yes. And his shorts. So back in the day, Babo was like big shit. Like 13 years ago. 13 years ago. So we would go to Spotted Pig. You can't get into Spotted Pig. It's just that we get in because it's like 12 and 30 and that's the thing. You can't even get into Babo. No, you can't. You can't. So you see fucking...

at the Mario Batali. It was just like macking and like just harassing people. It was all good because he was a superstar chef. Everybody knew about it. - But how was he like macking or harassing? - Like he was just like grabbing like the waitresses

So he was just, that's pretty intense. No, no, no. So he wasn't just hitting on girls. No, no, no. He was actually harassing them. Actually touching. Actually touching. Oh, so that's, but that's, that's possible. See, that's why he got in trouble. That's why he got in trouble. So that's why he got in trouble. So especially, like, So you saw this? Yes. With your own eyes? Yes, back in the day. Like, because you don't,

you don't know any... These chefs are untouchable. Yeah, they're untouchable. But I agree with that. Like, that's crossing the line. Yeah, for sure. But I feel like verbal flirting and stuff like that, what's wrong with that? No, no, but let me ask you. Not that this... I'm not defending. I'm just curious. Okay. Like, so when you saw him do these things, like, let's say, grab a girl's ass or... Who were these people? Were they staff or... Staff, staff, staff. So how were these... And they were females, right? Yeah. So how were they reacting to it? They were like...

Nothing. Like nothing happened. Like, ah! Was it like a nervous, kind of like they were afraid to do anything so they just didn't accept it? Or were they genuinely like into it? No, it wasn't into it. It's more like, oh, you touched my ass. Like, ah! Like, and push. Like inside, inside. So they were clearly, so they were clearly uncomfortable with it. This old guy, if you're 23. Inside, they're like, that filthy pig. And they're like, ah! You know, and

You know, and then they go home. Because you're a superstar. Yeah, because they're just a waitress. Because she needs her job. She's fucking Mara Batali. You're a 23-year-old in the hottest restaurant at that time with this hottest chef at that time. In New York City. In New York City. You make probably 400 or 300 a night. And back in the day. Yeah. That's killing it. Yeah.

$300, $400 a shift? That's killing it. We cannot afford to lose that. But that was the thing. That was the thing with it. I mean, plus, Spotify has three floors. First, second, third. The third is like the private one. Jay-Z owned it and, you know, April Bloomfield and whatnot. So all these fucking things happened in the third floor. Ooh. Have you ever been up to the third floor when it was popular? No, because it's not public.

But you heard a lot of stories. Yeah, I have a lot of stories. What kind of stories did you hear? Because I have a lot of chefs. It's like, this is the thing. That, you know, they do drugs up there. They, the waitresses. They get girls up there. Yeah, they go up there. Especially all this, like, fucking pigget. I know this for a fact. In a restaurant. In a restaurant. I know this for a fact because I work with a lot of them. It's like a kizzle. I work with a lot of them. I work with a lot of them. And now they're very, very careful about it.

Of course, I mean, I feel like it's that shit. Oh my god, you can't do anything about it. No, they're absolute targets now. They're being hunted. They cannot, like, do anything. And some of them rightfully so, but then you get a lot of collateral damage or people who aren't really, like, guilty-guilty, you know? Yeah, you know, like the comedian, Azar. Azzy Azar. Azzy Azar. So that's one of the things that's like, come on now. It was like a date. It was a date. It was a date. Well, like, so...

First of all, there's a whole range of behaviors. It's not like black and white. There's a whole range of behaviors. And on the extreme, you have the really bad stuff, like the Bill Cosbys or the people that just should go away for life, right? And there's a whole range. And then the question is that

With this movement, you're going to get collateral damage. You're going to get innocent people or you're going to get people who are on the, you know, who are maybe... Because it's a wide range, right? So, like, they're clearly, like, not this person, but they're over here. But then that means that all of these people here are afraid to do the previous bad stuff. So then the question is, is the collateral damage worth, like...

changing the entire culture and then what happens if it shifts too far and then you start the number of people you persecute is more than the previous regime who persecuted these women and then it's like this tug of war. Well, either way you have victims, right? So, in the original way the victims are the women that are being harassed so those are the victims. Yes. If you go swing two other side maybe they get saved but then you have collateral damage and those become the victims. So, you're just replacing one victim for another victim. But,

The previous level of victim-ness or whatever-hood is far exceeds these guys. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. I mean, because every girl is harassed. Think about if you're... Sure. And I'm not understating the...

the severity of that. But I'm saying like, I think it's just as bad if you're an innocent guy and all of a sudden publicly, very publicly, your entire image and reputation and career and your relationship with your family gets completely ruined because people think you're this pervert or this, this, this rapist or whoever, when you haven't done that now, now everyone is alienating themselves along with your family. It's unacceptable, but you can count on your hand.

probably a few hundred people who have been crucified like that, whereas there's probably millions of women who've suffered. So, like, you're talking millions of women who have suffered some kind of, you know, harassment and, you know, a hundred, if not a few thousand males. So, I mean, at this point in time, it's very clear where it doesn't make it right. It's not justified. But if you just look at the amount of victims on each side, it's not even comparable.

It's clearly not comparable. Yeah, but that's why it's a movement. I just feel that some women are like doing this out of spite. Yeah, well for sure. It becomes a weapon. It becomes a weapon. Because you're going to have women there exploiting this. Yeah, there you go. So, of course. So that's why some of them are like, some of the articles are out there, like

You're going to have the Jussie Smollett's of the world. You know what I mean? You're going to have that shit. Okay, so I'm just saying this John Besch thing. He didn't actually do anything. His people did something. I'm not saying that he's completely innocent, but the fact of the matter is he lost everything. So it went too far in this particular instance. It went too far. He's not Bill Cosby. He's not Mario Batali. It's just that he did it. I'm not saying condemned because nothing really happened.

I don't think anybody got raped or whatnot. It's just that. It's just a little playful thing in the kitchen, which has been happening for a long time. But now nobody can touch anything. Like another thing, Ken Friedman. Ken Friedman is the owner of Spotted Pig. He's the one that's really disgusting. That's why Spotted Pig is not Spotted Pig anymore.

because of that. They lost everything. They're the one that actually touching, like really like grabbing. And then I like threatening the women. They're like, if it wasn't for me, you'd be like gone. I'm going to blacklist you for being a transgender and whatever. There you go. So those are the things. It's not like, okay, okay. It's not like Weinstein needs to like really go to jail for like what he did because he raped someone.

Well he's the poster boy of... He's the poster boy of... But you know, of course, he's a f... Come on now. He's a rich white guy. Nothing will happen to me. What will happen to him. Nothing. What do you think what's happening right now? Well he's never gonna rebound from this. Never gonna rebound, but he is filthy rich.

He can like live off like his like money right now. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Like this is like my- And he'll still be able to do things behind the scenes. Yes, exactly. You don't really know. This is what I'm saying. This is what I'm telling you. This is what I'm telling you. This rich white kid, white dudes, there's nothing gonna happen to them. My cook was like telling me, come on, chef. They're rich white dudes. Nothing's gonna happen to them.

Especially what's happening right now. I'm going to shift from the kitchen to the education. It's what's happening with paying universities right now. They found this whole university admission scandal. USC, Yale, Stanford. Let's be real here. They're like rich white people.

They're probably going to get some sort of... Well, there's also rich Asian people. Asian people. Yeah, you're right. How about the Chinese? Well, see, I think they're making a story out of something that's always been happening. Always been happening. And will continue to happen. No, no, no. The thing is... As long as people have money and there's people that want money, it's going to continue to happen. You know what's wrong with this? This thing won. They paid the middle guy. There's a middle guy in between all of them. So there's a business being made. There's an industry out of it. Come on. Kushner. Kushner.

Kushner's father, which is Kushner's father, Jared Kushner's father, donated $1.5 billion to Harvard so that the two kids can get in there. It happens all the time. But it's just that. For some reason, Aunt Becky and Phyllis Lee Hoffman paid a middle guy to get in their kids to a fake scholarship to USC. It was like a rowing gig. But the kids never rowed before.

But that's like really like to the extent of it. Come on. But you know what's funny? It's like USC of all schools. Like I went to USC, right? So it's just like...

Like, if you're going to have to pay money to get into a school, why won't you pick something better than USC? Exactly! Like, I went to USC. Like, if you're going to pay all this money, like, pick Princeton or something. No, but USC is good. No, USC is good. It's fun. And it's good, but come on, if you're going to pay money, if you're going to bribe someone, if you're going to commit a crime to get into college, why not pick the best college? It better be fucking Stanford.

No, that's what it is. But not even Stanford. No, but Stanford, like Columbia, Stanford, Yale, Harvard. New Mexico State. New Mexico State. Tufts College. But let me ask you this, Audrey. Going back to our previous conversation, because I want to ask you this. We're talking a lot, like, for example, like the Me Too movement, right? So a lot of it, obviously, the brunt of it is focused on...

male dominance over females, right? But you were in a unique position as a chef because you were a female in a position of authority over others, right? So did the Me Too movement affect you in terms of

how you thought about maybe your own behavior or things? Were you more on edge in how like you had to behave? Not on edge, not on edge. It's more of like I'm more aware of the fact that I cannot touch your ass. Do you think the consequences would have been the same though? Let's say you slapped a guy on the ass. Do you think the fallout of that would have been the same as if you were a male? Probably not. Just because I'm a

But there's still the fear and the example and then it just becomes fear in general. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's just say it's totally different because they know me and they know that I'm not like that. Let's just say I'm like a disgusting pig touching a woman's ass. They're totally different. But the thing is the fear is like you're like, okay, if someone wants to take you down for whatever reason, completely unrelated reason. Yeah, they will use that. They would use that as a weapon. So you're still careful.

So you still have to alter your behaviors, even though you know that the chances are not as bad. Like for the guy, they're just like, okay, I can't do it. Unless they're like, unless they're like, unless they're addicted to that shit, which probably some guys are, they're not going to do it. But then the women think twice about it.

Why did you look at Howie when you said "addicted to that shit"? You're like, "addicted to that shit"? Something some guys are? And you look directly at Howie. No, for sure! Addicted is like, "some guys are"? But for sure in your industry, you did do that as well. I wasn't even aware. Did I do that? Did I just do that? Why would I do something like that? That's why I asked. Subconsciously. Was it obvious? That was obvious. I'm just fucking around. You know what I'm saying? Especially in your industry, you're high up. You're a director. There's a lot of this interest wanting to get into your pants and whatnot.

You know what? I'm just saying this. I'm not saying because. I'm just saying this because out of experience, not that I did it like myself per se, but women are like vicious. They know what they're doing. So let's just say you're the big boss and I know what I want if I'm vicious like that. I know what I want and I know where your situation is. And I'll climb that in order for me to win. And you're taking the temperature of the environment right now. Yes, yes, yes. Everything is ultra-PCA. And you can play it both ways. Yes.

You can actually play both sides. Think about it. You can. You can play the conventional angle. You can. And then you can just turn around and be like, why are you doing this to me? Yeah, exactly. Why did you grab my ass? Exactly. So I'm just saying, so Louis is just saying that you're a big time director, which you are. And then I just want to get into that. Even though I know that you're married.

But I know you. I know you. How do you know? But you know especially because he's married. He has more to lose. Exactly. So you can even be more vicious. But I know you're weak. Men are weak. Men are weak? Men are weak. Men are weak and stupid. Sorry. But sometimes when it comes to that, it's like that. Oh, when it comes to sex? Yeah, it comes to that. And I can manipulate you in the way that I want. If I can. If I can. There aren't many women like that. Exactly. But...

Obviously we know there are women like that, but have you ever actually come in first-hand contact or seen an example of that yourself? Yes. My kitchen, yes. You have? Yeah. Of girls manipulating the situation like that? Yes, yes, yes. Being extra flirty. Flirty, flirty, like you're at the bar. But no, you can be flirty, but being flirty with the intention of baiting you so I can trap you. Yes, yes. Really? Yeah. My chef at Ramsey got sued for sexual harassment because of that. He was an ex-boyfriend, actually.

Of yours. Yes. So it was like that. You didn't sue him, right? No, I didn't sue him. And that would be... I'm like, yo, I should totally sue you, right? Now I got my own restaurant. That's actually great, but fucked up. But no, no, no. So this girl just sued him, saying that he was making a move, but not really.

But he lost. But the girl wanted... Not...the girl... So was it a settlement or something? No, no, no. The girl didn't want to sue him. The girl wanted to sue the name, which is Gordon Ramsay. This is what I'm telling you. Like that the restaurant would let this kind of environment happen. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But it didn't happen. So that's a whole other level. It's just that...Ramsey is just like...Ramsey has a bunch of lawyers and a team to do that. This poor guy doesn't have anything.

They'll just let him go down. Or not escape go, because he is the GOAT.

Yeah, it's the usual, like, you know, like the corporation mall or whatever. But I've seen it. I've seen it. Of course. Just let it happen. They do it all the time. All the time. But it's just that, do you really want to be that? Do you really, do I really want to be that guy, that girl that, like, slept with you and ruined your marriage? So that's what takes us back to the whole Me Too, like, movement, right? So going back to someone like Weinstein, I mean, I'm not, 100%, I'm not supporting his behavior. But I'm just saying, like...

Part of that behavior probably stems from knowing that there are X amount of females that came onto him, you know, that tried to work their way up and he allowed it and thinking that, well, if that happened over here, maybe it could happen over here. Well, you feel like he got conditioned to behave that way? Well, I think it's just like a, not necessarily conditioned, but maybe because of other people's behavior, he may think a certain way towards the women that are not privy to that kind of behavior.

I think he's just a dog.

Disclaimer, we don't condone any of this stuff 100%. 100% don't condone it. Support the women who were harassed. So anyways, just to disclaimer. In case this ever gets published. I don't want to get fucking taken down. None of us are saying anything that condones it. We're just trying to analyze. All I'm trying to do is analyze. That's what people do. They analyze and they get taken down. So you just got to be careful.

What are you afraid of? I am afraid. No, but I'm just saying. This guy's high profile. This guy's high profile. Everyone wants to see him. He works for a high profile company. Wait, how high profile are you? I take care of the fish right now. No, but I'm just saying that he's right. He's right. But at the same time, you know there's some girls who wanted to climb that mountain.

And it will do everything to climb that. You know, there are some girls like that and there's some girls... That's why it's kind of like...

I'm 50/50 when it comes to it. You know, I don't condone it, the rape things. Like, I think he needs to go to jail, he needs to, like, pay for what he did. So has Batali, because I've seen it. Like, in my own two eyes. But at the same time, there are guys like, best there are guys like, Aziz, Aziz, uh... Anziz Ansari? Aziz Ansari. Like, there's guys like that. They're like, it's a witch hunt. Well, that's why I think it's situational. You can't just...

you know, put a cover on all men or all men of power or whatever. Of course, that's what you don't do. But the thing is now, I mean, look, I think the general like thing that we can say is that any kind of victim is a bad victim.

Right? And they're definitely more in this realm. There's many, many, many, many more female victims than there are male because, I mean, that's just how things have been for a long time. And just because there is a very, very, very small number of male victims doesn't mean we should ignore the male victims. And at the same time, we do need to have the perspective to say that it's like a 1,000 to 1 ratio or 10,000 to 1 ratio. And we shouldn't overemphasize all victims are bad.

But it's like a 10,000 to one ratio. There's like 10,000 female victims for like, you know, one or two male victims, which doesn't condone the one or two male victims. But there's a perspective here. And the people that try to go either way to the extreme are, you know, like they're not doing a service, right? Because if we put all the attention on the one or two male victims, then, you know, then we are doing the 10,000 women a disservice. And if we put all the attention on

on the female victims, you know? Yeah. So tell me about this thing that you're saying that... Am I blocking it? No, stop. You're saying that the #MeToo movement here is like... It's non-existent. It didn't translate here. So for sure it's happening here. For sure, but not as a... The #MeToo movement itself isn't happening. The things that caused the #MeToo movement are happening here, of course.

But there's no culture of Me Too here. There's not that sense of culture. Let's just say... I'm in the kitchen and I get harassed. Nothing's gonna happen to the chef that harassed me. I don't know. Nothing's gonna happen. How about the big company? But it's not a witch hunt here. That's for sure. You know what I'm saying? Well, hold on. I think we have to apply some nuance to this. Okay. So...

There are probably lots, lots, lots more women that are being harassed in China. For sure. And there are less... And there probably aren't very many women who are manipulating the system either, like, generally speaking, because there is no movement. So it's just, you know, it's like... There's no ladders there for them to climb. Well, I mean...

All of this is nuanced, but there's really two things happening, right? Like all of the stuff that's happening is still happening. And maybe these companies are becoming more progressive. And at the same time, because there's not this crackdown, then there's probably less people that are exploiting this. Yeah. All I'm saying is there's no spotlight and there's no witch hunt like there is in the U.S. or less. What is happening is still happening for sure. Very rampant here. But it's not. There's no there's no witch hunt here for it.

So it's not that culture in terms of... Except for PC culture. There was one Chinese guy that was involved in this. But that was like, he was in the US. But talking about like, you know, because we're talking about Shanghai now. You're new to Shanghai. You just got here like a week ago, or whatever it was, right? So what's your whole perspective? Like you've been here for a week, obviously you don't know it yet, but what's your first impression? Like what do you see compared to New York?

It's just bigger. Bigger? Bigger. Bigger than New York, for sure. The pace is the same as New York, or even maybe faster. Faster. It's huge. Your metro system is perfect. Because I've been navigating it like a pro. That's so amazing. She's only been here, what, a week or two? I know! I always tell them. I always tell them, because the thing is, I'm really afraid to take a cab.

Just because from the airport. Okay, I paid 350. From Pudong to here? No, Pudong to where? To Huangpu. J-I-N-G-U-O

- Jian Guo. - Jian Guo. - Jian Guo. - Jian Guo. - Okay, so I stay there. - Was that the road? - Jian Guo and Ru Jian. - Rui Jin Lu. - Rui Jin Lu. - Yeah, that's Xu Hui. - But still, 350? I ripped off, sorry. - 350? - It should be like high twos. - It should have been like 250. - Yeah, mid to high twos. - So... - You gotta add in the 100. - That's me! So I'm just saying...

At least they didn't get real jacked because people would get really good jacked. I've heard people, like, it went, like, almost, like, a thousand. No! You know, like, so Japanese tourists, because in Japan, if you took the same distance, it would be, like, crazy.

crazy. So then, Japanese tourists come and they're also very polite and then they're just like, okay, 700 US. What the fuck? Yeah. And then the Japanese, they're just like, okay, it's expensive as hell in Japan. I went to Japan. I took a taxi from, I mistakenly took that taxi from the airport into the city of Osaka.

Oh, Jesus. And I was like, I was just looking at the media. Oh, my God. Yes, I know. What the fuck? What the fuck? Stop the car. What the fuck? We're on the highway. We can't stop the car. What the fuck? I know.

I know. It was hundreds of dollars. I know. Holy shit. And I'm like, what the fuck? It's so weird. So I got out and I got to the hotel and I asked, the first thing I did, because like once we open the door, the bellboy comes to like greet you. I'm like, that's the bellboy. I'm like, look at that fare. Is that, is that, is that fair? Is that right? You know what I mean? And the bellboy's like, yeah, like this cast, because they have different taxi companies in Japan and they have different tiers. So if you're like, some are very expensive, some are a little cheaper. Super!

I happened to jump into the really expensive one. That's what I thought about Japan. Everything in Japan was like, okay, for me, because I'm coming from New York, but the fucking cabs. Okay, I was like, okay, after I went to Kyoto, I stayed at Haneda, a hotel in front of the airport, because I was flying 6 a.m. going to New York. Literally see the airport and my plane. The cab, 20 bucks in front of the airport, in front of my hotel to the airport. It's like,

Like, the cap was, like, crazy. And I knew that from the fact that I was getting ripped off in Pudong, actually. Because I remember... But you didn't get ripped off that bad. Not bad, not bad, not bad, not bad. That's still in the vicinity of what you... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Not bad, not bad. That was kind of like the other time. You don't have to tip. He actually might have not ripped you off. He maybe just went the wrong way or just took the wrong way. So it's like $348. It's kind of like whatever, whatever. It's the normal. It's the normal. It's the normal cap. But I'm just saying, fuck. They don't speak any word of anything. So that's why now. But it's a good thing, though. Just in case I move here and I get a job here, I need to know everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But let me ask you, like, why Shanghai? Why come here? Because this is the second time you're uprooting your entire life, right? So the first time was from LA. It was Australia.

Well, the first one was from LA to New York, really, right? Yes. And so that was a big change, and that was really challenging for you, for all the stories you've told, right? So that was a time where you kind of just uprooted everything, went into a place that you've never been before, and just dove in headfirst, and just made your own way, right? Mm-hmm.

Now you're doing that like 10 years or a decade over a decade later You're deciding to do that again instead of going coast to coast you're going to another country going to another country and China of all places like when she's going to coast to coast Yeah, so so why yeah, what's the motivation? First of all Justin has a very very much influence in this but at the same time I've been going to Asia for like the last like what four years now and in

It's just striving. It's just advanced. It is. It's fucking advanced. And I've been to Europe, it's kind of like, what? Why would I go here? So the last time I met him in Taiwan, and I went to Vietnam, Taiwan, and Japan. It was kind of like, I was telling my friends. Excitement. Imagine this shit. Like, if I just learned the skills here. One step back, two step forward. That's what I always, like, think about.

So that's why after my trip last year from Vietnam, Japan, Taiwan, and I just realized I need to get out of New York because I've been there for 13 years. It's kind of like if I wanted to advance my career, it has to be something. New Europe is not going to do anything for me, except for Copenhagen because it's out there. But whatever. So my chances are in Asia a little bit higher.

than in Europe. But see, that's a trap you can fall in. I can. Don't fall into the trap of underestimating and thinking it's easier, any easier here than it is in New York. No, it's not. If anything, it would be harder because you have a language barrier to overcome, you have all these things to overcome. I'm not saying about the harder thing, I'm not saying about getting, the work is hard or the work is easier or harder. No, fucking no.

way. I feel that the work coming from New York and learning from all these European chefs, Asian people are

Like, the work is more harder. Because if the fact of the matter is, their standards are higher. Well, the expectations are different. The expectations are different. Like, here you're expected to do your 20 hours and, like... Yes. I'm not saying about that. I'm not saying about that. He just wants to hire a bunch of, like, Korean guys. No, no, no, no, no, no. Maybe, like, 50 Korean guys. Korean boy. They'll do the herbs. No, no, no, no. It's just, it's not that, like, that, you know. Like, I've talked to a lot of people that used to work in Asia. Like, I have a couple of...

like friends, we used to work at Ramsey, they work at Singapore, they're like the best. It's just because it's advanced. And I know that I have skill to prove it and the fact of the matter is if I stay here for a few years, - You can be anywhere. - And do something else, it's just my skills will be honed and it will be better for me. - So it really just boils down to a change of environment? - Yes, change of environment, I hate New York right now.

like i just can't be in new york what what do you think are going to be your biggest challenges here like like what about language language barrier language barrier for sure and work working visa for sure for sure because what the like why would they hire me from new york yeah the process of getting a working visa here has

has become even more complicated. Yes, especially now with what's happening with you as a child. You know you have to prove that you've never been to jail and stuff like that, right? Oh really? I didn't know. Because I'm changed because I lost my business visa. Okay. So I haven't been working for the past couple of years because I'm on a marriage visa.

Oh, because she's Chinese. Wink, wink. Wait, wait. So, um... Can't publish this episode. Yeah. So I'm getting back. I'm reapplying for my business visa. And I've realized... So wait, what's your citizenship? American. And how... Okay, it's like a marriage visa. So are you dual now or not yet? No, no, no, no. I can't get dual. I'm just... You know, my spouse is Chinese, so I can stay here. His partner is Chinese. Oh, that's what it is? I just have to, like...

Yeah, well, you can get hitched, yeah.

It's like America. It's kind of cool. Let's just get hitched and that's it. You're going to be looking for a Chinese husband now. Just pretend he's Korean. It's fine. But to get a business visa, there's a lot of things. First, you have to... It blew my mind. I literally had to bring my college diploma here. I haven't used my college diploma in how long? It's a lot. You have to get the certificate to show that legally you have never been to jail. You've never committed a crime.

And so you have to get it from the police department or something. Because in China, like wherever you live, you have to register in the local police department. So they have your records and stuff like that. But in America, you don't do that. Right. It's like, so I've been like doing the research to figure out like, how am I going to get that stamp to show that? And where's my home? I haven't lived in America in like 12 years. Like, you know what I mean? Like, where do I even go? I don't even know what to do.

I think there's challenges everywhere. I think there's challenges in China. Clearly, there are certain things that make it difficult for any foreigner to live in any other foreign country. It's not just China. How long have you been here? I've been here a long time. More than 10 years. But I think if you're a foreigner going to any country, why should they make it easy for you unless you can offer something? I think going back to why...

you know, you're here is that there might be challenges or challenges everywhere, but the pace that you talked about of Asia and the, how things are changing and how things are growing is faster than anyone else, anywhere else in the world. Right. And, you know, if you think about, um, what the hell does that mean? I don't even know. I don't even know. Hand down.

Oh, hand down. But if you think about what you've observed in terms of the subway system. Oh my God, it's great. China's great. Like all these different things. I love it. It's cleaner. And you think about the pace of change in that.

And then you extrapolate that to food, to entertainment, to other things. Then the pace of what's happening in Shanghai is at least equal to the pace of what's changing and what's happening in New York.

I think it's far exceeds. Oh, my God. It's far exceeds. And so it's fine. Let's say that it's equal or it's more. So it makes sense to take on because then if you take on the new challenges here, you're going to learn from that experience. And it seems like you're quite excited about what you've seen so far. And you spent 13 years there. If you were going from here to like, you know, a very slow paced place, then it'd be a different reason. Totally. But you're actually accelerating. Yeah.

You gotta work through some things. I feel like you're taking on a bigger challenge now. It is, you know. Europe was one challenge, I think Chicago's even bigger. With more upside. Yeah, the thing is, just that, I just like saying, coming from Europe, it's like, this is totally a different beast. It is. This is totally a different beast. Even though I see a lot of foreigners and whatnot, it's like,

It's so hard. Like, if I actually, like, ended up moving here, I have to learn, like, a little bit of Mandarin for sure. Basics, yeah. Basic, basic, basic. But there's plenty of people here. If you want to work in the kitchens with, you know, with Chinese staff, you're going to have to. No, but not necessarily. But there's plenty of people here that I've met, even chefs.

that barely speak Chinese. Literally, all they can do is turn left, turn right. I want that. Thank you. I'm hungry. And that's it, right? But it depends. Like 10 phrases. It depends. And they've been here for 10 years. We didn't talk about your background, but just through the conversation,

I get the sense that you've been an executive chef or a quite significant chef, and you have a significant career. So if you were to come in, if you went to some small-ass restaurant, then maybe it would be a little bit more difficult. But if you went in and you went to a slightly more significant restaurant and then you have a staff, then you would probably have a layer of staff that could actually communicate with the local staff. So I don't think... If you were to come here in your first job...

out here, maybe that'd be kind of weird, right? Yeah, definitely. But like, I mean, from what you said, like going into New York and then like living in a tiny apartment with a fake window or a small window and then working for... Oh, once you first started out. Yeah, and then working for Ramsey, it's like, at this point, the upside is huge. China would just be like a mini Ramsey and then, you know, like you've already gone through...

like the whole Ramsay thing, right? So it's like to go through another Ramsay, it'd be like a mini Ramsay. Yeah, definitely. Well, you're given, but at the same time, 100% Eric, but at the same time, you're giving up a lot to come here. You're risking a lot to come here because you're giving up a cushy job

In terms of being a chef, right? In terms of being well-respected. Credibility. Wanted there. In terms of your position, coming from an executive chef position. Are you well-known in New York? Like, if I dropped your name, could I get into some restaurants? Some restaurants, yes. Because I'm going to New York next month. I just need to get in. Where do you want to go?

Where do you want to go? You have to tell me. We're trying to go to 14th Street Taco Bell. You have to tell me. I have to tell you. Yes, of course. To make your way in New York City up to an executive chef and to have your own restaurant and people wanting to partner with you and actually wanting to throw money behind you,

I mean, that's a dream come true for most people who want to get into the culinary industry and career, to make that a career. And now you're just like up and leaving all of that to come to Shanghai to take on a whole new daunting challenge. Is...

It's insane. Right? It's crazy. Where you can't utilize that cred that you built in New York. It doesn't. To a certain, like your resume is going to look good. For people who know what they're looking at, it's going to look very good here. But you don't have that same leverage. Of course. Right? Of course. And then the pay that you're, especially the pay that you're used to getting in New York is not going to translate over here. Of course. So, with all that, of course, I've thought about that. You've thought about that a lot. Of course!

She's thought about this for a long time. For a long time, for a long time. Not really for a long time. After I come back from my Asian trip like last year, after I trip out, it's like, what the fuck am I doing here? It's like, really, what the fuck am I doing here? It's like, one step back, two steps forward. So with all this, I know that I'm not going to get paid as much as I was in New York. And all this prestige is not going to be there. But at the same time, if I wanted to come back, all that knowledge and all that skills that I've gained from here...

We'll just make my stock go up. Also, this is just a guess, but the way China, but even more so Shanghai, is growing and moving towards, if you were to come here and establish yourself and invest X amount of years like you did in New York, let's call it 10, right? Mm-hmm.

Who knows? Maybe 10 years, Shanghai is the New York. You know what I mean? Yeah. You know what I mean? And, like, you've planted your feet here that New York was great. Shanghai, in that 10 years, you're, like, the shit. This is what... Okay, I'm just telling you this because a friend of mine, like, works at Google. She's, like, saying odds. Like, China will rule the world. I was kind of like, that's what I think as well. It's like, you know, that's why all this, like...

Tension between us and your tariffs and whatnot. That's the only reason why there's tension is because America's like yeah, they're It's huge and it's a lot of money involved and whatnot and then you're the president I don't know what this name but I just okay

It's like really like putting his foot down with Trump. That's why I was kind of like... He's a strong character. So you have to like... Just a little bit of things like the businesses, the Chinese businesses in the US are going to get affected by this. But in the long run, it will be good for Chinese people. And then it will really fuck the Americans with all the shit that's happening right now.

Yeah, it's going to be a big coming 10 years. You know, I think like just taking it like quite like just more at a practical level. So I've been here, you know, 10, 15 years. And in the very beginning... I'm sorry, but from where? From Texas. Oh, look at you. Yeah. And I'm not like any kind of food connoisseur, but I am a picky guy. I know what I like. To say the least. You have your standards. I have my standards. I like standards. And...

And when I first came out here, it was hard to even get a burger, you know? And you've been, we've known each other for like 10 years and you've seen me complain my share of terms of the restaurant quality, the service, the food, you know? And then like probably in the last two years. Yep.

How many times have you heard me say, oh my god, this restaurant is like the fucking best in the world. We constantly do that. And we're not even talking Chinese food. We're not talking Chinese food. We're talking Western food. And we're like, this is the best in the world. And this service is like way better. It's some amazing stuff. I do a little bit of traveling and I spend...

Just like anyone else, I was in Italy this year. And the last three years, I've been traveling a little bit more. So I've been to Charleston. I've been to Savannah. I've been to LA. I've been around Texas. I've been to Austin. I've been in Sydney, Japan. I've been to Italy, Florence. Barcelona. I mean, pretty regular, right? Every quarter. And it's finally got to the point where I've got to eat my words, man. I've got to eat my words. It's like whatever food you want here in Shanghai...

It's pretty damn good. It's crazy. It is literally crazy. I want to back up what you said because when we first met and we first hung out, all I did was talk shit about China. Talk shit about Shanghai. And China. It's a whole 180 now. It's crazy. But in the beginning, when you first got here, even when I first got here...

It was like that. It wasn't like you couldn't really get good westerns. There was like one Mexican or one to two Mexican restaurants. And the only like thing was like element fresh. Like that was the only thing. How specific it gets is like to me, this is I think this is litmus test is I'll have a particular thing. For instance, taco bar in Beijing. Because a lot of these are, they're run by a combination of Chinese staff and, you know, Western Americans or Asian Americans.

and you'll have something so the pulled pork melted cheese sandwich grilled sandwich and you have that particular sandwich and you say this is the best pulled pork melted cheese sandwich that can be made and it is the best I've ever had in my life and it is that good and so like I have a list I have to go there I have a list of like 10 things and then when people I recommend go there they're like this is pretty much the best but the other thing is that

China also has a very simple advantage. It has the best Chinese. Chinese food. Because it's fucking China. Yeah. So then I go to Country Kitchen, which we talked about on the last show. And it was like, I can get the best fucking sun-sheet, you know, hand-cut noodles anywhere.

that you can get on the planet. So then you're just like, okay, well, what is driving this? And what I realized was it's not tradition or anything, things that are normal factors. It's economic development. It's that when you have a place where you have people that want to pay money for stuff and it's growing and the industries are growing, then the people who do the best job of making that food, like you, for instance, will come.

We'll come to Shanghai. We'll come to China. And then there you go. And that's like, it's that simple. That's crazy. Well, Audrey, you definitely have your work cut out for you here. The competition is fierce. Fierce. It's okay. Honestly, you are...

one of, if not the toughest people I know in my life. I'm serious. I'm being dead serious with you right now because I ran my course with you trying to underestimate you.

He did. It's still an Asian thing, though. In culinary school, I underestimated you. He very did. I'm sorry. I know it's stereotypical, but Asian guys tend to do that. And I admit it. I did. And you've proved me wrong every single time. And for someone like you to have toughed it out and to have had the career that you have,

in the environment that you have and to be willing to take on the challenges that you're taking on now is, you're just one of the toughest people I know and it's incredibly inspiring. Don't cry, okay? I'm not gonna cry. I just need to get a working visa.

God damn it. I don't care about your words, I wanna work with you. Let's drink to that. Here, let's drink to that. Audrey, good luck in Shanghai. I wish you the best. Here's like getting something in Shanghai. And anything you need me or us to help you with, just let us know. Definitely. We do.

Cheers to that. Cheers to that. Cheers to breaking her whiskey drought. Yeah, whiskey drought. The first whiskey we had to like, what, 11 years? Ah, 11. And you didn't fall into any trash cans. Cheers.