Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
There are certain things that we kind of frame in an East versus West, and these are false sort of frameworks. I think you go to a new country and you're a guest, but you don't realize that sometimes. And there's a little bit of arrogance and you go in like, "Okay, China should be this way. China should be this way. China should be this way." I remember stopping in my tracks and being like, "When did this happen?"
I'm on the subway and the sea of people open up. Because censorship, it's all about control, right? It's all about control. This podcast is never gonna actually make it on air. So we've spent all this time. Let's say this whole production gets shut down. Then we know. But if it doesn't, then we know. So we got today, Nikka whiskey. You brought this to my place a long time ago. Yeah, I think I... When was this?
I was coming back from Japan. Oh, I think this was a trip where I went snowboarding. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I completely... I mean, obviously, it couldn't have tasted that bad. There's like, you know, we finished more than half, well, about half of it. Yeah, I don't really remember what it tasted like. I have no idea. I totally forgot. We'll find out today. I just like the bottle.
Well, that's why I bought it, because there's a samurai head on it. That's the only reason why I bought it, I have no idea. And you can actually keep the shoulder, like the armor on and just take the head off to pour it. I mean, a lot of thought went into this, clearly.
And I don't remember it being that expensive or that cheap either. It was like, I think it was something along the lines of like 100 bucks US or like 80 bucks US. Something like that, around that. And I bet like 50 of those dollars went into like making this. Yeah. Because this is heavy. This is like heavy duty. It's like good materials, like good quality. It's not like, you know. Show that to the camera. This right here. So this time right here. On here. And honestly, that just shows. I hope I'm pronouncing this right. Nikka whiskey.
We tried it a long time ago, completely forgot how it is. We're gonna try it again today. I'm gonna let you know. Let's try it. Superb whiskey aged in wood guaranteed by our own experts. Okay, whatever. And it's a Japanese whiskey. Gold and gold. Yeah. I'm gonna take this shit off. I have tried Japanese whiskey before. There is Habiki, right? What's the other one? Yamazaki. Yamazaki. Yep.
A lot of my friends rave about it. They swear by it. So I tried it. It wasn't bad, but I wasn't a huge, huge fan of it, to be honest. It does taste a little different. I think it still depends on the year and which barrel.
you drink out of but like I think in general the Japanese whiskeys that we tried because a couple times we had to be together yeah um we tried the Hibiki we tried the Yamazaki as well um I just feel like it has this has a bit more of a of a a general smokier feel but I don't know try it cheers oh it smells ripe oh it's not smoky at all I'll try that smoky
It's kinda sweet. I was about to say that. A little nectar-y, if I will. Right? You know what whiskey I still can't really get my head around? It's Kavalan. Taiwanese one? Yeah. I mean, it won all these awards, right? It's rated, it was like number one best whiskey or something for that year, or whatever it was. I tried it, not a huge fan, to be honest. To be completely honest with you. Why?
I don't know. I didn't really enjoy the taste. I don't really know why. See, again, I don't really know enough about whiskeys. I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to whiskey. But just when I tried it, I don't know. It didn't taste as good. Like, this tastes better to me. So the cost of this is $125. $125? Yep. As far as whiskeys go, that's not cheap. You bought it retail, right? At a store? At an airport. Airport.
I got it. Wow, so even at an airport, so that's not cheap at all. I mean, Howie just wants to sort of show that, you know, he doesn't skimp on his whiskeys. No, I'm just trying to find more information about it right now. So on, I don't know how legit this website is, but there's ratings on it. Perfect five-star rating. What's the site called?
The Wine Spot? The Wine Spot? It's for curated whiskey. Clearly experts. It's a Napa Valley website dedicated to Japanese whiskey. He was just looking up the price. Okay, Howie. You don't buy the cheap stuff. We know. Well, here in Shanghai, I saw a Macallan 30 for a 65,000 RMB. Wow.
You got to wonder if you get that, if it's even real. Yeah. I mean, like you think it's real, but there's always that kind of thought in the back of your head. They have a $10,000 bottle just waiting for you. Yeah. Right. Like who's, who's, who's, who's keeping the inventory of that. Right. Yeah. So I think we should have some homework. We should all, we should look at,
or look up the standards of how to talk about whiskey right um start expanding our vocabulary a little bit so when people say this is very peaty what does that mean you know it smells it tastes smoky so pd is is equivalent to that's right tasting smoky yeah smoky so i so i have a uh okay
So I have a slightly different perspective than Howie, right? Okay. And you guys know I love using Google and Wikipedia and searching online for resources, right? Yeah, you do. I met this entrepreneur guy recently. What?
The way he learns is that whatever he's trying to learn, he just finds the expert on that. And it's more of like a human connection. I feel like with whiskey, I'd love to get Kevin. We could probably just go out with him. You know what? Yeah, we should raise the bar even higher. Because eventually, obviously, we've talked about this. We want to start getting expert guests on the show in all different types of subjects and just have discussions and ask them questions. It's kind of like...
Just nurture our curiosity about different subjects, right? I mean, we talk about whiskey all the time. We start off every show with a new bottle of whiskey. Anyway, we should try to find a real whiskey expert in Shanghai. You know what we should do next time? Maybe not the very next time, but when we're ready, we should do a whiskey tasting on this podcast.
That'd be great. Yeah. With an expert. And we'll just get a bunch of different whiskeys. We'll do a whisky. We'll have just like a whole episode just on like just having tasting different whiskeys. Yeah. With an expert there. And we can keep asking them questions and just learn stuff. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good. We should do that. But see, living in a place like Shanghai, it's in Asia, it's pretty, it's a really good hub to meet a lot of different interesting people, I think. Right? After all the years we spent here. Yeah. Right? It's really like, that's what I love about
living here because you get a lot of people whether they're transient you know whether they're coming going or they're expats and they're just kind of living here long term like us right um you get a lot of people from a lot of different walks of life coming in and out of this this kind of asian hub that we're in right from all over the west and obviously all over asia you know and there's you get that in cities like obviously like new york and la too but i just feel it's different here
I feel the network is a little more accessible here than it is back in the States. I don't know. Maybe it's just because we've been here for so long. Well, I think the expat community in general in Shanghai, as compared to, let's say, New York, I would say it's more robust here. Because, for example, being from New York, I mean, yeah, we meet people from Europe and...
whatever, but mostly it's just from different states. Yeah, right. So it's still Americans or maybe some Canadians or whatever, but like, you know, spattering of French or spattering of British or whatever, but like, it's not as like really diverse as in Shanghai, where literally you're meeting people from all over Asia, from Europe,
Australia, New Zealand. Yeah. You know, it's just more robust. Africa, like... Yeah, a lot of Africans. Yeah. A lot of Europeans, a lot of French, obviously. A lot of shitload of Australians. I just think it's more robust in general. So that might be the reason why you feel like it's a different vibe. Yeah. That's number one. Number two, I think you saying that it's a transient city, how it's positive because you can meet a lot of different type of people. But I think it's like...
In that sense, yes, but also it's, I think it's a mixed bag because you have the negative side because, you know, I've been here for what? Since 2007. So it's almost 12 years. Oh, Jesus. Almost 12 years now. And, you know, I think one of the reasons why we're close is because we're still here. Yeah. You know what I mean? And because it's so easy. We have so many friends that have left, you know, and even more that I can think back when I first moved here that I thought I was getting close to some other people and all of a sudden they're gone. Yeah.
transient city you know people do you think do you think people because it's such a transient city when you meet new people they kind of like don't even really bother to make an effort to kind of really build a bond with you because they know like you know you might be leaving soon or they might be leaving soon do you feel that way i don't i don't i feel it's interesting right i i would agree with some of how he's um his thoughts here i think
The first thing is that when you think about a city like Shanghai, probably a lot of people, I mean, for our listeners, people all around the world have heard of Shanghai, have seen it in the news, have an impression of Shanghai, but may not have had a chance to visit. In New York, in L.A.,
You know, it's a bit more conventional. Yeah. Right. And so when you go to New York, when you go to L.A., you're just sort of absorbing the culture and the atmosphere. But I think in Shanghai, we're actually contributing and we're building the culture here a little bit. And of course, you have 100 percent. Of course, there's, you know, the I mean, all of the historical elements of China are
But China is changing and the culture is changing. So I think when I go to New York, I'm kind of just like, it's New York. It's static. It's incredible. It's cool. It's matured already. It's matured. It's there. Whereas Shanghai, it's going through that developmental stage. And we've been here through that developmental stage. Help, you know, people like everyone here is help shaping what it is. And yeah,
At the same time we're shaping Shanghai, we're being shaped. So I feel like it's a living, sort of evolving kind of place. And we're part of that evolution. Whereas I think when we visit New York, it's sort of like, okay, we experience it, we leave, and that's it. So I think that's the interesting thing about Shanghai is that we're growing and evolving with it. And we're actually helping to build things. Like a lot of our friends, they've started different businesses.
you know, businesses out here, restaurants and all kinds of different things. So we see, you know, a changing before our eyes. I think that's really interesting. I think, I think that's really true. It's, you know, I've never really thought about that way. It's like, not only is it shaping us, but we're helping to shape it as well because it's a developing city. It has the luxury of being shaped. You know, when, when, when we go to cities like, you know, go back to New York and
or Los Angeles or London or any of the major heritage cities, they're already fully matured. They've been that way for centuries already. And they are what they are. Well, I mean, they've been around for centuries and they've matured already to a full grown status where you can go back 10 years from now and still relatively the same. I mean, it's not much has changed.
you know hong kong is another example of those type of cities but in shanghai just like our friends you know jerry and phil who were visiting back you know they were only gone for two years you know some less yeah and they come back they're really and they're like they're like oh my god like and we don't really notice these changes because we're here every day but it's changing so rapidly both like with its infrastructure and its culture right so it's going through a developmental phase that
is only going to happen once in history before it becomes like a New York and it is what it is and the change is going to happen, you know, very incrementally and very slowly then after it's matured, right? So, I mean, that's definitely really interesting and I think that's true. You know, one thing I've never really asked you guys or like really talked about before, I kind of know but not really, is like how did you guys come to be here in the first place?
You know, like what brought us all to Shanghai, right? Like individually. Like with you, Eric, like what brought you here in the first place? So I've probably been here, I guess, the longest. First time I was out here. How many years so far? Say that again. God, I can't even do the math anymore. I think first time I was out here was in 2002. Spent a little bit of time and then I moved out here in 2003. Okay. So the Wild West days. Yeah, Wild East days. Wild East. Wild, wild east. Yeah.
And, you know, I don't like I think when I reflect back, I don't think I really appreciated it. You know, I appreciate it more now. I came out for work. So there was a project and they asked everyone in the company who speaks, you know, Mandarin. And with my broken Mandarin, I passed that test.
and they sent me out here. What were you doing at that time? I was working for a tech company. So they needed someone to kind of come out here and connect with the teams out here and help them launch some new tech. But how was your Mandarin at that time? Was it just passable or was it pretty good already?
My Mandarin back then was terrible. Really? It was awful. Well, I think that's the same for all of us. I mean, it was terrible. I think his Mandarin is the best in all of us right now. Now, yeah. I mean, it was terrible. I mean, I could barely communicate.
you know but it's all relative right like compared to everyone else i mean i could you know i could say like you went to chinese school back in the day and so right did we all go to chinese did you go to chinese school back in the day and i failed on weekends i failed i played basketball i hated it i disappointed my father or because i failed in the class for white kids so it was horrible
But, you know, it was I was the only one that could even, you know, kind of say, how are you? Thank you. You know, and so they sent me out. That's all of us, right? You know, so I mean, I don't there's no there was no master plan.
There was no sort of like foreshadowing of China's going to be the place to be or Shanghai is going to be like really a hotbed of innovation and like across all industries. So what was what was that like one turning point when you got here where you were like, oh, I'm staying? Or did you even have that kind of thought? Was it like a decision like, oh, I'm staying here. This is the place to be right now. I think it was the reverse of that.
I think it was people were like, how long are you going to stay? And, you know, my response was always like, I don't know, probably leave next year. Okay. You know, and then one thing leads to another. And I think you somehow end up getting integrated into the environment here and you meet people and, you know, and there wasn't any kind of master plan. Like, I hate to say it. Well, you just kind of like formed a comfort level here and we're just kind of stuck around. I think...
When I kind of reflect, and I don't know if it was a comfort level, I almost think it's because there were challenges and there were uncomfortable things that made me want to stay. It was almost the opposite. It was like there's something changing. It's always different. I'm really uncomfortable. There's a million things to complain about. And yet at the same time, I don't want to be anywhere else. You know? I completely understand. Because when people...
You know, one of the reasons, one of the things I always say is when people like, because obviously there are a lot of things to complain about living in China in general, right? Coming from the West, right? There's a lot of things, there's a lot of inconveniences here. There's a lot of little things, right? That kind of rub you the wrong way. But what I always say to people is the kind of Shanghai, it's rough around the edges, right?
But those kind of like the roughness around those edges are kind of what gives it its charm. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like you're not going to experience these things really anywhere else in the States, right? Or in a lot of the kind of like more developed Western world, I guess. But it's kind of these things that really give it its charm, especially back in the day, especially in the early 2000s, right? Yeah. When it was like really the wild, wild East. Those are the things that we miss now. And we miss having that kind of,
culture around you know i mean i know when i'm living here it's not shanghai is not nearly as fun as it was you know i got here in 09 right and even then it's like compared to now 10 years it's not as it's not it's a huge shift completely different lifestyle and i think the charm is that it's easy to back home in the u.s to take things for granted and things are at a very uh comfortable sort of
level and the things that make you uncomfortable here they change and so it is really rough around the edges but what's really really fascinating is that there might be a hundred things that are rough around the edges and then one day you wake up you go out on the street and you see something and someone decided that they wanted to change something and make it better and that one thing gives you surprise and delight whereas if you were surrounded by all that back home
You wouldn't even notice. You take it for granted. You totally take it for granted. So it's almost like those sort of subtle hardships that you see every day. The appreciation. You appreciate when something different happens, when someone decides, I want to make this better. And I think over time I saw that the energy in the city and what people wanted to do, they wanted to make things better and they wanted to change. And people are open-minded and people who come here, and I think that's why we bond here,
Whereas you might meet people in other cities and you may not have those connections. I actually think it's easier to make a connection here because people who come here, they wouldn't have come here if they weren't open-minded. They wouldn't come here if they were like, you know what, I think there's something else. So let me ask you this because out of the three of us, you came to Shanghai the earliest. You've been here the longest.
What would you say, if you had to choose one thing, what would you say was kind of like the single biggest change between when you first got here and now? So I'll name a couple of things that I think we can all acknowledge have changed. So...
The hardware of the city, just the infrastructure has changed. The skyline has changed. When I arrived, and I can't remember exactly, there's probably, I'm guessing, two subway lines.
And now there's almost 20 and it crisscrosses the city. Well, now public transportation here is so convenient. So that's one obvious change. But I don't think it's the biggest change. Another obvious change is that the skyline of the city, the number of buildings. I think one third of the world's skyscrapers at one point were all in Shanghai. So as far as you can go out on any line, it looks the same. It looks like...
probably the most modern city. When I arrived, there was probably two places you could get a good burger. And now you can get better burgers here than probably anywhere else in the world. To me, that could be one of the biggest changes of all. It's just the F&B, you know, the food and beverage scene here alone has changed. And there are so many things that if we really kind of reflected on, you know, you could all list down as has changed.
Those aren't the biggest changes. The biggest change for me, and this is just, you know, I think it's by, by, by far the biggest change is the mindset of people here. And so, you know, when I arrived, it was sort of how you would expect China or a place like China, you know, deep in Asia to be. And, you know, after, you know, all that time has elapsed, the biggest change has been the people, the people are, you know, um,
They're super open-minded. They embrace ideas faster than anyone else. They're innovating. You know, I remember when I arrived, I wouldn't say that people here were the most polite in the world. Now some of the most polite people in the world are here. And so I think the people aspect is really what surprised me the most is like how quickly people can change, how quickly the influence of people
you know, social media and the influence of like international culture has been able to come in and kind of mix. And so now I think it's fascinating that you see innovation coming out of China. That is sort of a blend, you know, and it's, I think for so many years we saw a lot of sort of imitation, but now I think there's like incredible ideas coming. So it's really the, the, the energy level and sort of like the, the overall, um,
Change in perspective, I think, is the biggest change. So like socially and culturally, you would say. Absolutely. It's funny you say that because I agree. I actually agree with that analysis. But it's funny because you have a lot of people saying that Shanghai is developing so quick hardware-wise, infrastructurally, that the culture is having trouble keeping up with the pace of development socially. People are having trouble keeping up.
but i think i don't i don't i don't really find that the case i think outside of shanghai yes but in shanghai i think i think it's keeping up if not maybe even faster than it is changing you know yeah it's the structure i think it's changed a lot yeah the mindset go with what you're saying because i i i clearly remember i've been here since 2007 in like 2010 or 11. i remember like
taking the subway and already the changes, I mean, obviously skyscrapers, all that stuff in 2010, 2011 already big changes. Right. And then I remember at that time, that was a big topic was the hardware is changing. It's kind of software keep up, but the software is not. Yeah. And you still have these impolite people and blah, blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff. Right. The, the, the service was bad still and stuff like that. But yeah,
Let's fast forward a couple more years. Like, let's say the past couple years. I remember stopping in my tracks and being like, when did this happen? I'm on the subway and the sea of people open up to let people get off the train. And before it was like running backs, like charging in. Of course, you still get that once in a while. You get down in the three-point stands and ready to rush out of the subway. But now it's like...
And it's like, oh, I'm not. I mean, once in a while it'll happen. But in general, people are waiting now. And I don't know when that happened. But it has happened. You know? And even driving. Before, it was like people cutting everyone off. And, like, now I'm sitting in the car and I'm not going to throw up. Like. Well, it's still pretty bad sometimes. But compared to five years ago. You want to shed a tear. Five years ago.
In five years, the mentality of a whole city has changed. That's incredible, right? And I think it's just going to get better. I had a very similar tear-shed moment, and this was...
about like maybe like a year and a half, two years ago. It was pretty recently actually, like two years ago. Like, you know, pretty much along the lines of what you said. And for me, that moment was I was, you know, in the subway, right? I had gotten out of the subway, so we're getting out, you know, you take the escalators up. And for the first time in my experience in Shanghai, I saw everyone who was standing on the escalator line up to the right,
And there was an open passage to the left for people who want to walk up the escalators, right?
And I literally almost shed a tear. I'm like, I'm so proud. I'm so proud because I've never seen that in Shanghai before. Before, everyone's standing everywhere. They have no regard for anyone that wants to walk past them. They don't have that concept, right? So, first time I saw literally everyone line up standing on the right and people who are walking walk on the left. And I was just like, I was so proud. I'm like, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. But...
Going back to can software keep up with the hardware, I feel like it has caught up. I feel like the hardware is still getting developed, but not as quickly as it used to be. It's slowed down a bit. That's why it feels like the software has caught up a bit. I think software being the mentality of the people. This is really interesting. I'll share some of the feelings I had. I'll share two things. One of the things is that
I used to travel around Asia quite a bit. So, you know, I'd be in Korea, I'd be in Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, India, Philippines, etc. And I distinctly remember there was a hierarchy.
There's a hierarchy in terms of your expectations of what that experience would look like. So about 10 years ago, I would fly to India. I was in India probably 10, 15, 20 times that year. And so there's sort of like, of course, there's a certain charm in all of these countries. But in terms of
the level of service, the level of infrastructure, going from China to India, there was definitely a difference. And so when I come back to China, there would be a feeling of relief that things would work in the same way. At the same time, when I go back home every year, so I try to get back once or twice a year back to the States,
There would be a sense of relief because the infrastructure, just everything, the familiarity and how everything worked was so much more seamless in the U.S. This was 10 years ago. Now, fast forward now, probably the last two or three years, right, coinciding with sort of the parting of the seas on the subway, right?
You know, when I go back to the U.S. and come back and go back and forth, I don't experience that sort of culture shock or reverse culture shock as much. There's much more parity. And in fact, I almost feel like the service here is
In China. It's better. It's better. Oh, in many ways. In many ways. You know, it's interesting because like Taiwan, Japan, these used to be sort of the gold standard. These are the places you want to go. These are the places where you'd be like, I really want a vacation in these places because everything is just so smooth.
And I don't know when it was, but at some point, I feel like we are really blessed and we're really lucky that, you know, China, not just Shanghai, I travel all across, you know, now my role sort of takes me all around China. And I just, I love experiencing the culture.
way things have changed in each of these cities in their own individual way. And it's incredible, right? Like you feel that human connection. I feel like we came in with these Western, you know, I think you go to a new country and you're a guest, but you don't realize that sometimes. And there's a little bit of arrogance and you go in like, okay, China should be this way. China should be this way. China should be this way. China's had 5,000 years of history. It's been, you know, it's been China for a long time. And I think we have these expectations that,
And maybe they're not fair. We try to compare. Yeah, because we try to compare it to, you know, Western worlds who come from a completely different history. And we bring in a lot of baggage. We bring a lot of expectations. Biases as well. Biases. I would say that one of the things I enjoy most, and if I had to say why am I still in China, it's the human connection.
which I never thought, you know, I never thought that this was something that would kind of keep me here. It's the human connection. It's kind of seeing like how people are growing and changing and learning. So the learning agility of people in China is probably better than anywhere else in the world. It's incredible. It is absolutely phenomenal. The learning agility, the ability to adapt, ability to adapt. Yeah.
It's funny, when you both brought up something you both mentioned was service. And how we always thought China used to... There's a lot of truth in it. It used to have this stigma of really bad service. And this didn't compare to West. But now, it's a whole different ballgame. And it's an observation that I've made in terms of just when it comes to common service, like when you go to a restaurant or something like that.
the tipping culture, right? So in the West we come from a tipping culture, but in Asia, it's a non-tipping culture. No matter where you go in Asia, as a whole, it's not a tipping. You can choose to tip at certain places, but on a whole, you're not required to tip like you are in the States or in Europe. And so no matter where you can go, Southeast Asia, China, Korea, Taiwan, Japan, it's not a tipping culture.
And it's weird because you actually get better service in these regions. All these kind of countries besides China, historically, that we listed, were all known for their great service. Thailand, Korea, Japan, Taiwan. These are all places that are known for excellent service. Singapore. Yet they never adopted a tipping culture. Whereas in the West...
especially in the states it's huge on tipping it's it's very reliant on tips and you know right now they're getting ridiculous start at 20 right bare minimum 20 right which is infuriating it's infuriating that if the service is terrible you get 15 yeah and if the service is growing up growing up in the states it used to be 15 was like what you give for a great service you know i mean
And now, now like if you go to New York or like Manhattan, like 20% is like bare minimum. Like if you give anything lower than 20%, like they'll give you a look like what the fuck, you know? And, and you know what's most infuriating to me are taxis. You have to tip for a taxi. I don't know what the tip is for. Okay. A server at a restaurant, they're working hard. They're providing good service. I tip them. I think, great, I'll tip you. If you give good service, I'll tip you. No problem.
But for a taxi, I don't know what I'm tipping for because I'm paying you a fare to get me from point A to point B. That's what the fare is for. What am I tipping you for?
And in New York, you have to tip a tax driver 20%, basically, on top of the fare for what? You know? So anyway, I'm getting off track. But the whole point is, you know, like, the only reason why I'm bringing this up is because it reminds me of a debate I used to have, an observation I made. Because we both lived on both sides of the fence, right? Both lived in the West and the United States in particular. And we both spent a lot of time living in Asia and traveling around Asia.
And the differences I see is like, you know, I don't think the tipping system really works that well. Right. Because if you look at all the places with really the best service in terms of on a whole region wise, I'm not talking individual restaurants. I'm talking in regions. They're all they're all like usually in Asia, the best services. So that could be something to do with like culturally. Maybe people's mindset here are just more like service oriented restaurants.
But it could be a lot to do with the fact that they don't have to think to work for the tip. I don't know. Because it's kind of counterintuitive. You think tipping would make the service better. But then you look at the actual facts and your observations, and it's not necessarily the case. It's like, I think it's culture. Because even something as simple, I'm speaking in particular to China, is
Coming from America, we are programmed to say thank you for everything. I find myself saying it way too much now. Right? Like, thanks, thanks, xiexie, you know, stuff like that. And then a common response from service people or anybody, really, is like, why are you thanking me? This is what I'm supposed to do. Yeah.
This is my job description. Like, I am doing my job. My job is to serve you to the best of my ability. You know, as let's say a waiter, right? My job is to get you your food, explain the food, you know, whatever, give you the bill, you know, clear the table. That's my job, you know, and I'm going to do it to the best of my ability. So why are you thinking of me?
You know, so it's like, so what do you think is better? Because, right, there's two schools of thought, right? One is, you know, the more you say thank you, the more pleasant you might seem on a daily basis and, you know, case by case basis to people more frequently. But on the other side is that like, well, maybe in the West, you know, because we say thank you so willy nilly for every little thing, every thank you, thank you. We don't even think about it. It comes out instinctually like as like just a reaction. I'll say thank you without even knowing I said thank you. You know what I mean?
So a thank you almost kind of loses its meaning. Yeah. Right. So in China here, I feel weird because a lot of things I want to say thank you and I'll feel like I'm being rude by not saying thank you. But that's kind of the norm here. Right. But I think when people actually do say thank you here, especially the locals, they really mean it. They mean it. Because like you really did something for them and they're like, thank you. You know what I mean? Whereas it's not just kind of willy nilly kind of like throwing out thank yous left and right.
I don't know. It retains maybe more meaning that way. I think this overall topic that we're kind of exploring of just living here and having a Western background, it's like, I think one thing I'm starting to realize is that we've changed living here.
Just like you mentioned before, when you first came here, you came with baggage. You came with, you know, China needs to be like this or you can't be doing things like that, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But like we've been here for over 10 years, all of us. And we realized that, no, it's not so black and white, you know, and we challenge our own way of thinking. Yeah. You know, like things that we are, you know, programmed to be like, thank you all the time.
You start to question, is it necessary to say thank you for everything? Or do you say thank you when you really mean it? Even like the idea of relationships, right? In the West, I love you, right? Is a very common, like, you know, always telling your significant other, I love you, I love you, I love you. And one thing that I got with Vivi is she's like, why do you always have to say it? It's like,
there's no meaning to it. And I'm like, you're right. Maybe you're right. And it's like all of a sudden, like randomly, these once in a while moments come out. It's like, whoa, like the impact becomes a lot more strong. And just in general, that's how it is right here. Just when you're saying something, if you're doing something, there's meaning behind it, which is interesting. Yeah, my take on this is that when I thought about this, is that, you know, there is that reflex to say, thank you, she's in me.
And, you know, I've noticed that reflex in others as well. But my reflection is that, you know, I find the value in being able to pause in the moment to say it. And so for me, it's not just, it's no longer just a reflex. It's something that I try to be consistent about. And the intentionality of being consistent and, you know, saying thank you. Because throughout the day, there are lots of, I think we're not actually as grateful as we need to be.
There's so many things that happen throughout the day that would not be possible without others. And if you really reflect on your life anywhere, that's true. It's really just a lack of awareness. And once you have that awareness and you realize that everyone you're interacting with is a human being that has just as many feelings and sort of intentions as you do, then that thank you takes on a different meaning. So I'm...
very big believer in thank you it makes a big impact on me when people say thank you but i also try to be specific and say i'm you know thank you for doing this thank you for this i work as part of you know my in my sort of day job our culture is very much about thank you and recognition um
And then going back to the tipping, I think that if we create a culture where tipping is purely a financial incentive, then the result ultimately will be that you only get good service and probably not even really humanly impactful service when you tip well. And so, you know, I kind of lean towards that.
Making sure that people get that positive recognition and that gratitude emotionally. And then that the economic model of the service provider and the relationship between the service provider and that individual is a healthy enough one. So I'm willing to pay more, but I'd rather it be constructed and integrated into the relationship.
price of the overall service yeah i'd rather pay more at the restaurant i'd rather pay more at the hotel and i'd rather that organization take care of its employees and build a great culture yeah i think that's the thing i think a lot of it has to do whether it's a tipping culture or a system or not has to do with the hiring right so i think in the west where people know um you know if you come in and you're applying for a job as a waiter or any service position
And they know that your job is heavily, predominantly reliant on the tips you get to make an income. I think they're going to scrutinize less in terms of, oh, your people skills. Because whether you're going to eat or not is going to be based on how well you're going to be earning tips.
So that's on you almost. So they put that on you almost because like the tips are that's on you. You know, I mean, I'm going to pay you a base salary, like a free agent. Exactly. I'm going to pay you a base salary. But however well you perform, that's on you because you're going to be motivated to make those tips. So they feel less of a burden to kind of or less of a need to be like really kind of run through people and how well they would fit for that position. Whereas here, because there isn't a tipping culture, I think the employers are
Are going to take a lot more seriously the people they hire for these service positions because they know it's not tipping culture They know they have to hire someone who kind of really fits the bill who really would be you know Friendly or you know would be if we're talking about waiters would really fit the bill to be a great waiter at their particular establishment so they would take the employer would take a lot more seriously the hiring process and
Whereas in the West, maybe for service positions, they take it a little less seriously because they know that you're going to have you're going to be self-motivated to make tips. So they kind of put that responsibility on you versus shouldering that responsibility for themselves. You know what I mean? Well, I don't know. I think there's I mean, just the interview process in general for restaurants. I mean, I used to wait tables back in New York.
I mean, they're still looking for the right personality for the type of restaurant that you have. I mean, I've worked at a very fancy restaurant before. And I mean, yeah, it's like you have a standard. You have to look a certain way and you have to talk a certain way. And, you know, otherwise it doesn't matter what kind of experience you have, you know. Yeah, I think there is...
But I think it's more cosmetic in the West. Like you said, they have to look a certain way. You have to, you know, like, you know, come across a certain way, I guess. But I don't know. I think here it's, it's less cosmetic and it's more just about like, you know, your actual performance. Right. And the West is more about, I think just based on your experience and your resume. When I reflect on this particular question, I've thought about this before and, you know, um,
Then I, you know, obviously we can't say for sure, but I, I do, you know, I'm a stickler for customer service, right? I'm probably the toughest customer. So there's something that I'm passionate about.
And I say, okay, well, what's changed in the last couple of years? Like, why has service standard... Why has it gone from, like, one of the worst places in the world? Why has it gone from a place where I'm literally furious on a daily basis, right? You used to be furious on a daily basis. Especially with cab drivers. It's like a fist of fury, right? And then now I'm kind of like... I mean, it's like, kumbaya, like, you know, every single day. And I think about it, and I think, like, there's a couple of things. I think, number one, I work with a lot of...
you know, people who were born in the 90s or, you know, 80s, 90s. And I think that they've had more of a chance to experience the very services and products that they may be offering. And I think there was a point in, you know, 10, 15 years ago where we were trying to experience something that wasn't common in China. That was a Western sort of type of experience. And these things have been ubiquitous.
And China has grown and changed and developed so that there are incredible experiences in China. The kids that have grown up in the last 20, 30 years are experiencing these things. They're traveling. They're getting out of the country. They're experiencing. So when then they are on the other end of it trying to offer these types of services, there is a certain level of empathy and understanding. They've tried the food. They've tried the whatever it is, the international cuisine, which...
10, 15 years ago, they hadn't experienced. So I think there is that sort of connection there. And I think the second piece is that you are talking about the biggest economy in the world. It's brutally competitive.
It is absolutely brutally competitive. And if you don't raise the bar, step up your game, you're not going to be in business. And so I think those two factors, I think, you know, sort of the first one is unique to China in a way, just it's like where it is in terms of how it's grown because no sort of no country the size of China has grown
had such accelerated growth and development in such a short period of time. But the second is just, I think it's a, this is just the market dynamic. Any country eventually you get to a point where there's a lot of competition, um, and you have to deliver that, that level, you know? And so I think those are two things that I see that have positively impacted what we experience on a, on a day to day basis. Um,
And, you know, the hiring piece is then coupled with how you manage people. And if you look at like the companies like Didi and, you know, these other companies, they're actually innovative in their management practices now. So whereas 10, 20 years ago, we're looking to the West for their management practices. China's leading the world. So it's the it's again, it's the innovation piece. It's like it's interesting how bipolar it is.
10, 15 years ago, we're like, China is so far behind. There's so much the stigma. And now it's like they can't do anything wrong anymore. So it is incredible that such a massive place of people could change so quickly. I think that goes back. I don't mean to cut you off, but I think that goes back to what you said about competition. Because now, more than ever before in China's history, all the... China needs to compete on an international stage now.
All the companies here, all the major companies here coming up need to really compete in the brutal international market. Right. So the reason why I think one of the main drivers, I think why a lot of these Chinese companies are becoming really kind of innovative in terms of like management practices and, you know, just people, people management personnel is that because they had a
a crop of people that were not kind of up to snuff in that regard. They had to really take drastic measures to find innovative ways to kind of get people to work well, to start thinking correctly, you know, in benefit of the company, right? So it was kind of like a forced process.
Because through the market competition, they were forced to make these big changes. They had to find innovative ways because they couldn't keep going on the way they were because they didn't have the kind of right material to work with back then. So they had to figure out a way. How do we give people who are sub qualified in many aspects to be qualified or to to work, you know, in benefit of our company?
So they had to find out, like, they had to think outside the box, so to speak, to find, to kind of force, because they have to, they're under pressure of competing internationally now, you know? Yeah. I think another way to look at it is the, just, there was a lack of baggage in a way. I mean, they were starting from scratch. There was an interesting question posed to Lee Kai-Fu, who is, you know, was the formal, like, Microsoft, Apple, Microsoft, Google executive, right?
Led Microsoft, led Google in China, right? He's quite sort of, you know, well-known figure in the high-tech world. And the question was posed to him recently, and it was like, who's going to win the battle of AI, artificial intelligence? Is it going to be the US? Is it going to be China? You know, and...
I think his answer was interesting. His answer was that he felt China was going to win, not necessarily because it had more talented people, more innovative, better systems. You know, I mean, you could argue that the U.S. has better systems, better methodologies, but there's just a much more dense system.
concentrated sort of population of people that can compete. And it's the competition. It's the, you know, the drive, the competition, the energy. And so when you have more experiments happening, the result of those scientific experiments are going to lead you to success. And just by the sheer mass of people
what's happening in China, he believed that AI would eventually here surpass what's in the US, even though the methodologies arguably are better in the US. I can see that. And I think in many ways, you know, not necessarily pertaining to AI, but in many ways, that's already happening. Yeah. And it's not just AI. AI is just sort of one category. It could be anything that we don't know what the future looks like. Well, just think about the convenience of
a lifestyle here in Shanghai versus, you know, even back in New York, right? It's... So what do you... Let me ask you this, Justin. What do you carry now when you leave the house? What do you have... Like on my person? Yeah, yeah. Do you have... Like I know you used to have a man purse, but you've kind of gotten rid of it. I never had a man purse. That was Howie, sorry. That's me. No kidding. So obviously I'll carry my keys.
My phone, of course. A transit card. Okay. So you're still kind of in the dark ages. That's weird. You don't use Apple Pay? Let me answer this. I don't carry keys because I have thumbprint to get into the... Okay, well, I guess I'm still living in the dark ages because I use a key to open my fucking door. Okay, I'm sorry. No subway card because...
I use the phone. Yeah. Wait, how do you do that by the way? Because people were telling me not, but I don't want to like tie my transit card to like my phone. Is it just through Alipay or how is it? No, Apple Wallet. Oh, you just do it on your phone? Yeah. No, because I'm doing it purposely. I like to have it separate, right? Because you have money on your transit card and if I happen to lose my phone, I want to still be able to like get around. How often do you lose your phone?
Not that often. I don't really use my phone. But just in case. You know what I'm saying? There you go. Okay. But yeah. Can I get away with just kind of going, just having my phone on me? Yeah. For months on end going out here? Yes. I haven't carried cash in my wallet.
for about five, six months now. You're way behind. It's been two years by the way. Yeah, you carry cash in your wallet? I only use my wallet. I don't carry cash in two years. There's only two reasons why I have a wallet. One is out of habit, you know, because I grew up carrying a wallet. And two is just to kind of hold my credit cards and stuff like that. Yeah. Right? It's the only... I don't have any actual cash in my wallet. I haven't for... So you haven't had cash in your wallet for two years? Two years. So here's... Okay, so here's... This is what's interesting, right? So because...
I get it. Like when we go out, when we actually leave the house in the morning, we're going to be gone for, you know, let's say 10, 20 hours or I'm going on a business trip. You want to be prepared. So you may bring other things. Right. But if I go out for a run, I know that I'm going to come back home in a couple of hours. Right. And so when I go out for a run, I just bring my phone. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. And I'm like,
I know that on that run, if I need something, I'll be able to go into any convenience store anywhere and I'll be able to just use my phone. I'll be able to use Alipay, Apple wallet, whatever it is and get anything that I need if I need it. So there's no sense of insecurity. Yeah.
Although I know that if I go out through the day, I might bring my wallet with ID and other types of things. But I think the true... But that's not the case. We're talking about bare essentials, right? Like, what are the essentials on a day-to-day basis that you have to have? Because the other periphery stuff changes. Like, if you're going to a meeting, you need to bring a laptop. That's right. But that's not essentials. But the running in the morning is that litmus test of bare essentials. True.
And it's your phone. Your phone. That's right. So Roy Lee, you guys remember Roy? Yeah. Okay. So Roy was just in town. Okay. He's been out of China. You know, he lived here for quite a while. He came, you know, way back in the day. He was here up until probably eight, nine years ago. And he came back and, you know, Roy was like more China than anyone. Right. I mean, you know, the guy, he was deeply embedded in society here. He's been living in SF. He's gotten a little soft. Right. So he comes back. Yeah.
We're at a restaurant and he's like, man, it's like really changed here. Right. And we go and we pay the bill. And all of a sudden we just use, you know, like contactless payment. We use our phones, Alipay, whatever. He literally looked at it and he was like, I swear to God, I saw a farmer flash between my eyes. Yeah. Like he just saw a UFO, right? What? What happened? Like he just saw alien technology right in front of his eyes. Literally like he went back to the 1950s. So he had no idea. He had no idea. And it freaked him out. What? Yeah.
It totally freaked him out and he was like, whoa. And there was this sort of level of discomfort and it was just kind of like, what? And there you go, right? So things have changed. They've changed so quickly. But it's hard to keep up. It is hard to keep up. But other states, I mean, they have Apple Pay and stuff. But Apple Pay in the States is not nearly as widely used. Like literally everybody and every vendor here.
uses the phone every single one that's right no matter how big or small literally every single one like i pay my utilities for the phone i every single one every single thing you can possibly think of them buying movie tickets to your groceries to to shopping at you know uh you know whatever store to buy clothes and it only takes like two clicks so like it's the smartphone paradigm
It's the smartphone paradigm where you only have to do one or two clicks. And it's the ubiquity of it, right? Everything you do can be implemented in five seconds or less. And I think that's what's shocking. But how seamless and consistent everything... It's not a one-off. It's not like I can do this easily, but everything else is difficult. It is that everything can be done through a single interface. Which is...
Actually, when you really think about it, it's not easy. I mean, it's not just the technology. It's getting every place in China to adopt the same technology. Adoption. Yeah. Adoption. So I think there's something about China in terms of this mix of command and capitalism that has allowed it to move faster. Because in some ways in China, people can't. They don't have an option.
When we say this needs to happen, we want to build a road here, it happens. So it's this perfect mix of like open-minded, but then also like I can implement everything simultaneously and somebody can make that call. Whereas like if you were in India or in the US, there's no one that could make that singular call. Yeah, it's like capitalism, but without the bureaucracy that you have to go through. Yeah, that's a great way of describing it. So everything like kind of just gets done.
Like once it's, you know, once it's, once there's a mission to do it, it just gets done. There's, there's very little red tape or this and that kind of holding away. There's, you know, you know, you're not like debating over years to kind of like build a bridge or a highway where it just gets stuck there. Like it just gets done, you know what I mean? And yeah, I mean, it can be, it can be a little daunting and scary in a way at times, but you know, the growth and kind of success that we have the benefit of,
kind of getting here is really in a large part due to the fact that it's an authoritarian country that's capitalist all at the same time. You know what I'm saying? And like you said, it's a very good combination of both.
What are the downsides? Yeah, I feel like, I mean, people, let's say even in America or in the West, right? I mean, they'll hear us talk about this, and I'm pretty sure they'll automatically think about the negatives, right? Yeah, they're like bullshit. They're like, you're internet censored, you know what I mean? Well, not even about that. Like, okay, so...
Everyone's using Alipay and WeChat Pay, right? We use that for subways, for transportation, for buying food, for paying bills, everything. It's getting tracked, right? The company or the government has access to it. You have no privacy. It's obvious that WeChat's getting monitored. It's obvious. All that stuff, right? So that's going to be the Western argument. But for us, we never talk about that kind of stuff because we don't really care.
Exactly. WeChat is getting monitored. You know that this podcast is never going to actually make it on air. We've spent all this time. We've spent the last one hour on something that's never going to actually be heard by anyone. Here's my question. Having said that, why do you not care? Well, personally, I think the whole kind of privacy issue is not something that I really care about because I don't
I don't really care because I don't really have anything to... that I really want to hold... that I really care if someone is watching. Like, if my emails... if someone's looking at my emails...
You're just going to find normal kind of emails in there. You're not going to find anything of any value or incriminating to me in any way. So it wouldn't affect me in any way if the government was looking at my WeChat or looking at my emails. It wouldn't affect my lifestyle. You know what my biggest fear is?
But you know what my biggest fear is? My biggest fear is that tomorrow Justin just disappears. He's locked up forever. The only reason we don't care is we don't see the implications. The actual monitoring of this is invisible. It's what actually happens if someone monitors it. Something's only going to happen to you if you're doing something. Wow, that's naive.
That's so naive. That's not true. Because... So you're assuming that... That unless you do something wrong, you won't get busted. So like there's...
Like you have that assumption. No, not in every case. But I think that there are so many people, if they are monitoring, there are so many people to monitor that they don't have the resources to go after every single little thing that you're doing. They're going to go after things that are on a priority for them, whoever they are, right? They're going to want things on priority. So they're going to do their due diligence because they have limited resources in terms of there's so many freaking people, right? So if they're monitoring everybody,
they're going to go after people that are actually making a case to be to be monitored or caught because they have to direct and devote resources to do that and you know that tomorrow they're going to round up all the people that have made podcasts about this because you know well this is worried about this would be the true test wouldn't it so we know that if this particular let's say this particular episode gets shut down right
Then that would be... Not this particular episode. This... Or this whole thing. This whole production. Let's say this whole production gets shut down. Then we know. But if it doesn't, then we know. You know what I mean? So I'm willing to try. That's the Nika whiskey talking, but cheers. Cheers, cheers, cheers. Cheers. You know? Because, I don't know, I felt... You know, it could be coming from a partially naive standpoint, but I just felt like I've been living here and not...
I cannot recall a single instance living here where I felt I was, I had to like, oh, I can't do that because I'm in China. Oh, I can't. I've lived here exactly how I would have lived back in the States. If not, even even more free in a lot of ways, culturally speaking. Right. So I've never had any kind of intrusion on my lifestyle that I felt like,
I was inhibited or I had my hands tied or I had to be careful or I couldn't do something or I was kind of oppressed in any way just by living my own life. I've never felt an instance of that. And I'm not like a completely square person either. You know what I mean? I have my share of fun. So I've never felt that. Even though I know it's there, I'm not denying that it's there. I know it's there.
But it's never had a material impact on my life living here that I've noticed anyway. This reminds me of Joe Pantaleona in The Matrix. Which one? Who's that? Who's Joe? The guy with the glasses and he's the guy that kind of turns on...
Oh, ignorance is bliss. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, no, it's not ignorance is bliss. Because ignorance is not knowing or denying that it's there. If you know it's there. He knows it's there. He just wants that steak. No, but he wants it to be erased from his mind so he wouldn't know it's there. Because remember that conversation, he's eating that steak. He's like, wash me clean, put me back in the matrix so that I don't know anything about the matrix. I don't know the matrix even exists.
That's what he says, ignorance is bliss. Because he's tortured by the fact that he knows that the matrix is there. He's outside the matrix. He knows everything that's going on. He's making the case that he wants to be put back in the matrix, have this slate white clean, live a very successful life with being completely oblivious. And he's referring to that as ignorance is bliss. What we're referring to is, well, we know it's there. We know the matrix is there. But it just hasn't really had an actual effect.
impact on my life. I don't know. I can't speak for you guys, right? But for me, I've never felt restricted in any way living here for 10 years. That's just me. You know? The only thing, the only time I really felt that or I feel that is on the internet. You know? Because the internet is censored here. Right? So...
You know, there are certain sites. But they're like stupid sites anyway. It's not like, it's not really like, oh, I can't like do anything. And, you know, with VPN, we get around that very easily. If they get rid of VPN somehow. Well, yeah. If they get rid of VPN, then we have to move out of here. I don't know how I'm going to survive. It's a fair argument. It's a fair perspective. Yeah, it's not an argument. It's just my personal observation. It's a fair perspective. I mean, you know, these things are, you know...
Well, what happens now? What happens tomorrow? What happens in the future are all different things, you know? And so when you start looking at social credit ratings and how, you know, like if you frown a lot, there's cameras everywhere. If you frown a lot, you may be,
I mean, I frown a lot, right? I have my incidents on the subway. You get rated an angry person and then that affects your ability to access services across a lot of different realms, right? And so eventually... But what are you talking about though? Are you saying that's already happening right now? It's already happening.
So if you walk around the street and you frown a lot, you're going to... If you walk around the streets, every movement, every facial reaction is already being captured. Oh, no, I understand that. How that information then ultimately gets used to, hey, am I going to extend this person's visa? Am I going to... These are all things that are happening. But you don't think that's happening in the West, too? With counterterrorism and everything like that? The argument... You know, we're not debating what's happening in the West, right? We're talking about the...
the sort of the ubiquity of these things that are happening here, you know, and it's probably happening everywhere. But these are things that I think that, you know, I'm not going to be Joe Pantaleona, ignorance is bliss. I'm going to think about these things, you know? Yeah. So I just have my visa renewed. I have, I've been a good citizen for the last couple of years, you know, but, you know, like we'll see.
But let me ask you this, like of all the things that you've experienced here in China and done in China, what are the moments in your life where you felt like kind of you felt what you're talking about in terms of, you know, you were in danger in any way or of, of,
Any sort of... Like, when these things happen, it's not like it's gradual. It's like it's binary. It's like if you live in Venezuela and you live in these kind of totalitarian... I mean, these regimes exist. It's binary. It doesn't... It's not like, you know, it's slow, it's gradual. It's one or the other, right? And so I think that's what we're talking about. It's not like, you know...
Certain people face it, certain people don't face it, right? But there are all the conditions present that that could happen. And so that's always in the back of it. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think that's absolutely true. Yeah, that's absolutely true. It's just that in my personal lifestyle, it's never affected, I felt, at least noticeably. Yeah.
in any way that I would have behaved anyway. You know what I mean? That's just me. And I can't speak for everyone because some people may choose to do other things. But I've never had to kind of check my own behavior here because, you know, I felt that way. When I think about even us, right? When I think about, okay, well, let's say Howie wants to make a film about something. When I think about what's next in my life,
I want to create a company that does this. I want to help people, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Anytime these things conflict, right? You immediately have conflict.
a situation where two things are opposing each other whereas in the western world i think it's a much more subtle and the level of things happening there's much more flexibility so unless i'm directly opposing the you know the country's national interest here i think it's much more subtle how we could do i'm sure you've had to edit certain things and even the stuff that you do now yeah
Well, I think censorship is a whole different topic. You know, when we're not necessarily talking... Yeah, that's a whole different thing. It's all linked together because censorship, it's all about control, right? It's all about control. It's not... It's all the same thing. Whether it's like they want to control what I do here or here or here, it's all about control. So it takes on different forms, different names, censorship, whatever you want to call it. It's all... The purpose is the same, right? The purpose is the same. So...
So then it comes down to going back to what I just said. I mean, are you a willing player? You know, how do you feel about this? You know, especially living here. The biggest argument in the West is the freedom of your own rights and privacy and, you know, equality and blah, blah, blah. Right. But over here, I mean, these type of discussions don't really happen.
and you just kind of go with the flow and you just kind of live your life and it's almost like you're it's not ignorant to it it's just it's not for the general public it's not a priority it's not a priority yeah exactly yeah
Which I find it fascinating because when I first moved here, I was quite argumentative against people. And always debating people about the way they think, the way they live. Same here. It's like, how could you think this way or that way coming from the West? This is ridiculous. How can you accept a government being like this or censorship for that? But now, I just... I don't know. I feel like living here for a while... Maybe it's brainwash. Maybe I've been here for so long that I am...
I have been affected by the Chinese government and I am a good citizen. And like, we shouldn't view this as sort of one side of the other because it's, it's, it's, it's balanced, right? So first of all,
We shouldn't be naive about what it's like to live here and we shouldn't be naive about what it's like to be at home. Yeah. Right. There's there shouldn't be any naivety. There should be awareness. But the second thing is that whereas your sensitivity to privacy may have decreased, I can say that in the work and the work that I do.
99% of our customers are from China. They're from here. And their sensitivity to privacy is increasing. Is it? Oh, absolutely. And you notice it from them? I think so. I would agree. Well, we deal with the volume of customers. We work in sort of a consumer business, so the amount of customers we deal with is a lot, right? I mean, it's a lot. So the...
Even the use of data, if you think about it, like everyone has photos and has, you know, information and data and all this stuff. And privacy is important, not just in the context of the government, but do you want...
You're a competitor knowing about your stuff. Do you want other people knowing about the relationships you have? So I think there are certain things that we kind of frame in an East versus West, and these are false sort of frameworks. No one wants their personal photos online, period. So I think we look at things and we kind of create these false sort of premises. The reality is that everyone's using data. Everyone's having their life captured.
And no one wants their personal information put on the Internet. And that's the bottom line, right? And so then when this information is being collected for a different reason, but then somehow it's being compromised, these are things that we all worry about.
So I think it's actually just being really open and understanding sort of like these are issues that impact sort of everywhere. And that in the moment, you may not think these are important. It doesn't impact you. But at some point, it will impact you. And these are the things where you didn't see it happening. And then it's like all of a sudden, you know, I think those are the things that we should all do.