Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
And then I got to thinking, well, what are the tormentors that keep coming back? These old friends that keep coming back into our lives, but we really don't want them to come back. - Yeah. And we call them old friends 'cause like we're familiar with them in a way. I mean, I think as we get mature, as we get wiser, as we work on ourselves,
They get less and less. But for some people, maybe they get more and more. Yeah, totally. It's helpful to talk about them. And I was thinking like these old friends, like you and I are old friends. Yeah, well, friends is a strong word for our relationship. Well, I don't know. You'll listen to the episode to find out if we actually really are one-on-one friends. Either way, our friendship is pretty awkward, me and you. Despite how close we are, it's...
It's probably the most awkward friendship I have with anybody. Is it? Yeah, and I would expect probably the same with you. I think you're just awkward with most people. All right. Anyway, without further ado, here we go. ♪
I'm just looking at my... I was looking at some of my notes here. And this is from September. I forgot about this. And it's like, Nightmare of Unstoppable Monster. Fear of repeating tragic patterns. Wait, wait, wait. When is this from? From last month. That was you taking notes about yourself? Me just capturing...
some of my thoughts and sometimes when i wake up and i have a dream like i'll jot it down so in this particular case and i vaguely remember it it was like the nightmare of an unstoppable monster tormenting me wait when did that thought come to you was that a dream yeah this was a dream so you woke up in the middle of the night yeah from a dream or a nightmare and then you jotted that down yeah
Because sometimes you forget. It was a nightmare, apparently, because I captured it. And I vaguely remember. And I can't, it was because it was such an interesting and vivid image. Do you remember the dream? Well, it's just a monster chasing me. Really? Yeah. What do you think that means? Do you believe in like dreams having meanings? Sort of, yeah. Why not? What do you think that meant?
I don't believe they have meanings in terms of predicting the future. I think they have meaning in terms of that's what's on your mind, right? These are things that are like maybe impacting you. Well, the second part of the phrase is there's just one line and it was nightmare of an unstoppable monster. And I remember trying to...
describe in my mind what that monster looked like, but I couldn't quite remember. But it was basically some type of monster. And then the second line was fear of repeating tragic patterns. What are these tragic patterns you're afraid of? Maybe they're mistakes that you think you're making every day, but then you're so used to them, you don't even know you're making them. And then there's something that disrupts your thinking like a dream, or like you wake up in the middle of the night, and then some of the chemicals in your head have been
shifted and shaken around. And then you wake up and you're like, wow, I've been doing that like every day for like years. And then you have this kind of mini panic attack. - So do you think that dream is almost like a moment of subconscious clarity?
could be or maybe it's not a clarity it's like a subconscious um warning because i have these from time to time then i wake up and then i'm like oh you know you're not flawed right but in that moment you're like i have some serious character flaws so i don't know some people tell me i shouldn't be so hard on myself then i have these dreams and i'm like you know that monster might be me
It's like me chasing myself. You know? Yeah, like the real you. Yeah, the real you. The one you've been suppressing this whole time. Totally. Yeah. Well, cheers, man. Cheers. Yeah. Starting...
Kind of a dark way to start this show. It's kind of rare me and you get to sit down like this, just me and you, to do an episode. Last one, we did one, just me and Howie talked about UFOs and stuff. Yeah. But it's good to check in with you. Yeah, but I don't think we should force it, right? I think it's just about checking in with each other. Yeah. Seeing what's what. Yeah. Okay, well, do you want to go first or do you want me to go first? What do you mean? Well, how are you doing? Just having a conversation. Okay.
You overthink everything, man. That's what you do. Everything is like a thing for you. Well, that's my old friend. That's like my old friend that shows that I have these old friends and some of them are assholes and they've been friends with them for like my whole life. And then they just come knocking, right? And they just barge right in and they're like, hey, how's it going? And I'm like, I know you.
So when you refer to these old friends, are you talking about your saboteurs, demons, things like that? Yeah, saboteurs. Saboteurs? Yeah. Are they all bad? Or you have some good old friends? Oh, that's a good question. Because it's funny, like, because, like, obviously friend is a term of endearment, but we're using it kind of, like, jokingly, right? Like an old friend, like, oh, here's this asshole coming again, like a friend, right? I think there are good ones, too. And...
I got this idea because I was doing some mindfulness on this app, like the 10% Happier. And they were using this one technique, right? Like when you have these patterns of thinking that keep tormenting you, they had this one really nice line. It was like, hello, old friend, I know you. So then at least you know that they're sabotaging you, right? Like that you're aware that this is happening. Because sometimes if you get mad or you have self-doubt,
or you're stressed out, you don't realize that it's actually happening. And then you're unable to do anything about it because you don't know it's going on, right? The awareness of it in the moment. Yeah, the awareness I think really helps. Because then you're like, oh, okay, I've seen this thing before. I know this old friend. They've come before. And I know what that outcome is, right? You've experienced it before. But sometimes in the moment, I think you really, you panic a little bit. So one of the techniques is when you catch something
that you're having a moment and it could be like maybe an emotional outburst or something like that. You say, oh, hello, old friend. Or at least internally, you're saying, hello, old friend, here you are. No, you're like, hey, old friend. And people are like, well, Howie would do that. Yeah, Howie would speak out. Howie actually has these old friends that are with him like every day. He doesn't need awareness. He knows they're there. He hears them in his head.
But yeah, so you say, hello, old friend. I know you. And I'm still trying to kind of decide whether this works or not. I don't know too much about meditation, but the little I do know, they're like, you know, when you're first starting out and you're meditating, because the whole kind of goal of meditation is to
Be free of thoughts, right? Kind of have like be like a blank page space where you don't have thoughts. But like it's impossible to not have thoughts come in, especially when you're first starting. So a technique that I've heard about was when these thoughts come in, it's not like you're trying to block them out.
Let them come in. Acknowledge it and then let it go. And then another thought comes in, here you are, let it pass through, right? Instead of trying to just like block it out and shield it out all at once because you're just never going to do that. So it's about acknowledging and letting it go. Acknowledge and let it go. Is that kind of similar to...
being like, oh, hello, old friend, there you are. And then like letting it go and letting the moment pass and maybe you can calm down and, or, you know, whatever the context is. I would, I think so. I think that makes sense. I want to go back to your earlier comment and you said that it's kind of like not being hijacked, like by your thoughts. So I think the, what I've learned and I'm, I'm still trying to piece it all together because there's different versions, right? Like,
what Sam Harris says or what Dan Harris says or all these different people. So I'm trying to experience this on my own and come to my own conclusion. And some of the things that resonate with me are, well, first of all, you're not trying to block or stop anything.
Because having thoughts and emotions and feelings is part of being human. What you are trying to do is make sure that one of these things doesn't just like completely hijack your system so your whole system freezes. And so like there's a soundtrack that's playing that
And imagine like someone turns the volume up a little bit. Have you ever had this situation where like, you know, you're listening to something, you need the volume to go down, but someone calls or the doorbell rings and you kind of panic. And then all of a sudden you turn it like way up by accident. And then, you know, you flip it the wrong way. And all of a sudden it's like, you can't get it off. Right. It's like blaring and stuff like that. And I think sometimes,
something comes into your brain and then it just takes over your whole system. And the more you try to get rid of it, it like gets even stronger. Can you give like a personal example of that just so I can like understand what you're saying a little more? Because I kind of get it on the surface, but I don't really truly understand. Like, what do you mean by the volume and it going up? And, you know, like I don't really understand the reference. Well, I think like one obvious one like is doubt. Right.
and like self-doubt. And there's like lots of reasons that drive that. But have you ever been in a situation where you wanted to perform at a very high level or you wanted to do something well, or there was certain expectations?
And then like you make a little bit of a mistake or as you're doing this, rather than just being in the flow of things, just being natural and being relaxed, you start thinking about it. And there's another, there's like, as you're doing something, there's another voice in your head that's like telling you that you're not doing a good job. Like it happens to me on the podcast all the time, especially in the beginning, right? Where you're just like, oh, is this interesting? And then you're just like,
you've got all these other voices in your head that are going on and then of course you're gonna be distracted and then it get louder and louder and louder. They then impact your performance
And then it's a downward spiral. Yeah, it's a downward spiral. That's why I think we perform at our best when we're relaxed and loose and not thinking about it. Because if you're thinking about what you're actually doing right now, then you are taking a lot of the mental energy and focus away from the tasks that you actually want to do well. Like it's like you're sabotaging yourself. It's like if you were running, but then you like tied...
one foot behind your back. It's like, no, there's... Yeah. Or you can try to not think of it as a performance at all. Right. Because the moment you frame it as, oh, this is a performance...
then it's like, okay, lights, camera, action, go, right? And then you're like, uh, right? And then the expectations are super high. Yeah. Because you're framing it like you've got to deliver something. Yeah. Rather than you experiencing the joy and the curiosity and the discovery of that thing. Or in the context of the podcast, because you used that as an example, like,
Like instead of like we're performing, it's more like we're just having a conversation. And that's the state of mind I've always tried to put myself in. And I get it, you know, sometimes because like, you know, we're human, right? So we know people are listening. We know the cameras and microphones are on and we want to make it interesting, right? We want to make it the conversation to be something people want to listen to. So that's just human, right? And no one can really deny that. No one who's publishing content
can really deny that that's in the back of their mind. Or for some people, right in front of them. Well, it was in the back of my mind in this episode because the dynamic changed. When the three of us, when Howie's here, and then oftentimes our guests come
then it's really easy to shift the focus to outside of yourself. - Because we're all sharing the weight. - Right. - Right, we're all distributing the weight amongst like, let's say four or three people. - Totally. - But now there's two people, each of us have to carry more weight. - Right, and we wanna come up with something novel and original. Whereas if like you bring on a guest,
By definition, there's something not, because we don't know that person. Yeah. No, but why is it though? Because this is an honest question, right? Because this isn't the first time we've talked about this. How come, because like intellectually, we know that putting pressure on ourselves to let's say, quote unquote, perform reduces the quality of the performance. We know that. Why do you think it's so hard for us to
to change that then? We're not even us, like just people in general. Well, I think first of all, to that last point you made, that this is part of the human condition. It's not just us. And in fact, everyone goes through this experience and we see it most with athletes because- I don't know if we see it most with athletes. I think we see it most obviously with athletes.
because that's like the most, the sports analogy is always going to be like the clearest, most understandable analogy, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I mean it in both ways. One is I think we notice it most because they're on stage and there's a score involved so you can see their level of performance. So that is the clearest. So just in terms of all things being equal, you can observe it. I think the second piece is that
there's more pressure with athletes, right? So then they're put into these circumstances more often. But yeah, why? Like why do people get into their own head, right? And where they think so much, I think it's the pressure, it's the expectation. It's gotta do with like what others expect. So when you reflect in the beginning of this conversation, you were talking about the dream and the monster chasing you.
Do you think that monster is this like crushing weight of expectation that you're always trying to- I think there's more than one monster. Mm.
So I don't, do you ever have dreams about monsters? Like Anne has dreams about monsters from time to time. Not like literal monsters, no. Not that I really remember. At least not since I was a child. Okay. I think Anne and I literally have dreams about like monsters, like how you would, how anyone would think about a monster, like in a film or something like that, right? Like I can't give you the, I can't remember. That's gotta be scary. It is pretty scary. Yeah, I can't. That's some weird thing. I can't,
totally describe it but I think the word monster is a pretty accurate description I think there are more than one monster you know stepping outside of that that manifestation like what are the thing what are the monsters that torment you do you have monsters that torment you like what torments you what old friends pop up from time to time the way you're asking me these questions just like I
You're like, oh, like we've talked about this before. How do you still have this fucking problem? Like what's wrong with you? No, no, no, no. Like, you know, I was just, I don't know. Okay. If I came across that way, I'm sorry. I'm just joking. Yeah. But I was meaning it more in terms of the podcast, right? Like, yeah, man, I don't know. I haven't thought about it in a while, but of course, of course I have things that torment me. I think if I'm really to reflect about it, I think, I think it's two things that really torment me. One is similar to you. It's expectation. Yeah.
But it's more like expectation of like who I was supposed to be. And I feel like the me now, the actual me is pretty far away from what I thought I would be or could be. Maybe even far away from what my parents thought.
I should be. And to me, if I'm being honest, it's a little disappointing. I'm not disappointed with my life. I have a great life. I live a very privileged life. I have wonderful people in my life. But it's weird because it just feels like, oh, I wasn't, I didn't think I'd be here. I didn't think I, I didn't, I didn't, this wasn't,
And I know that's kind of silly to say, but there's a little bit of disappointment in that for me. And then I think the second thing that torments me most is time. As we get older, time seems to move faster. And the people you care most about, some of them, their time left is gone.
getting shorter. And there's all sorts of implications with that. Not just that they might not be in your life anymore, but it's like, you feel like maybe there's all these unresolved things, unresolved thoughts and feelings that you have not communicated with them in some way or another. And that you struggle, even knowing that fact, you struggle to communicate that even still in the present. And
It's this, I don't know, it's this weird thing of not knowing what to do about it as time is slipping away. That kind of gets at me. Those are the two things that really come to mind. I don't know if you can really relate to that. I'm very curious about them. And I think that I can relate to them personally.
both right without knowing the specifics because what you're saying is quite i think it's universal yeah yeah like i would think so if you if you like and i i appreciate the um the distinction right you're not saying that like you didn't live up to expectations or you know i think you're saying something even more subtle than that you're saying that like in many ways your life is great and to get to this point wasn't easy but
And at the same time, like how it played out was different than what those things were. I'm curious, like what, like where did those expectations come from and why are they so important to you? If I'm being honest, I don't know how important they are to me actually. Well, if you said they torment you. Yeah, they torment me, I think, and I'm thinking about this in real time, right? So I'm trying to process this. I think they torment me the most because of maybe how other people make me feel.
may see me or view the difference between me and the expectation, right?
And it's not just anybody. I think it's certain people that I really care about. And I think that's what gets at me. If I was in a vacuum all alone without, let's say, friends and family around me, I don't think I'd be that tormented with who I am today. I think I'd be pretty, I wouldn't say proud. I'd be, to a certain level,
Obviously you're never gonna be fully content. You always wanna achieve better. But I wouldn't be so tormented about it. I think it's the expectations that maybe other people had for me and the feeling that maybe I let those people down. I think that's what's really at the center of it. - It's interesting 'cause like,
I recently was reading a book around like how emotions impact certain states that you have. And there was a reference to the words guilt and shame. And those are both like terrible feelings. And the takeaway that I had at a very high level was that guilt is when you let, you feel like you let people down. And then shame is like when you just think you're a bad person. So like shame is like even worse than guilt.
And then when you mentioned this, right, I don't like the good thing. I think the silver lining is that you don't feel shame because in many ways, I think you consider all the things that you've done and where you are in life. And I see so many positive things that you should be proud of, right? Use that word proud. Cause like, I think a lot of us are proud of you for what,
The things that you're doing and the things that you continue to do. And it sounds like you're carrying a lot of guilt because that's exactly what letting people down is. Because you just said, right, like you're kind of more or less content, like things are pretty good. But it feels like by letting others down, that's really tormenting you. Yeah. I don't know. I kind of like that distinction between shame and guilt, right? Like the idea of...
letting others down as guilt and kind of letting yourself down as shame, right? When you're shameful, you're like, "Oh, that's not who I am." You know, like, "Oh, you know, that's..." You're disappointed in yourself, so you're ashamed.
When you kind of let other people down, that's when you're guilty. Yeah. When you feel guilt. Well, when I, even when I hear the, um, the words guilt and shame, like shame just like makes me look right. It's like, I'm like, Oh, cause like I'm ashamed of who I am. Like it's like your identity. It's, and it's also like your identity. Whereas guilt is not about your identity. Guilt is about something you've done.
- Yeah, because I don't know, maybe other people feel different, but for me, I've never felt like guilt. I've never felt like self guilt. You know, like that feeling has never existed for me. It would be shame. I would never feel like guilty about something I did to myself.
But I would feel very guilty about something maybe I did to someone else, right? So wait, you've never felt, so you felt guilt, but like not shame in general? Or have you felt shame? No, no, obviously I felt both of those before. I'm saying I've never felt self-guilt in terms of I've never done something to myself that I felt guilty. I would never classify as guilt.
Guilt only comes when it's something I did to somebody else. Then I feel guilty. But if I did something to myself, I wouldn't feel guilty about it. I might feel ashamed about it, but I would never feel guilty about something. I think that lots of things probably more, they more fall like when it's external, right? Like what you're saying, the guilt. But I do feel like sometimes I feel guilty if I've eaten something that's unhealthy or something. And I've done that to myself. No, but see, for me, that's shame.
No, no, it's not shame. No. Like, I feel like if I, if I binged at like after a hard night's drinking, you know, two o'clock in the morning on like chili cheese fries, right? Like, like, like I feel ashamed about that. Okay. I don't feel guilty about it.
I want to draw a distinction. I think there's a distinction. I want to draw a distinction because I also think that there is, you can have guilt of something you've done and you can have shame if that becomes like a pattern and then like you have an issue with your own identity. So for instance, for me,
In general, at this point in my life, I eat relatively healthy. So I don't have any shame aspects because I generally keep it under control. But from time to time, even weekly, I'll have like a bad meal and I've trained myself to
to focus on my health. So at this point, I'll feel a little bit guilty. I don't feel any shame though. Okay, but I understand you're saying guilty, but is that guilt that you're describing about like, let's say, binging or pigging out, right? What you shouldn't have. This feeling of guilt you have towards yourself, does that guilt feel the same as if you were to
let's say, do something bad to somebody else. I don't know, like you betrayed somebody or you said something really mean to somebody in the moment that you regretted later saying, right? Like, are those two equivalent things? No, no.
Well, okay. So let me go in terms of magnitude, just in terms of the quality of the guilt. You know what I'm saying? They might be different. Well, let me, let me address that. I'll address your question. I think they're different. I can't like put a finger on how they're different, but I do want to put a difference on guilt and shame. So you can feel guilty about doing something to yourself. You can feel guilty about doing something to others, but,
I think the distinction is that shame is like then when you think that you're a bad person. So for instance, like, okay, I ate all this shit and it's like, oh, it's because I'm a loser, right? And it's like, because I have no, so I'm a really bad person, but I don't feel that way in terms of some of these habits.
But when it comes to like letting other people down or I see repeated behaviors, like going back to the monster where you over time, you maybe you stop noticing these things. Everyone has a personality. Everyone impacts others in a certain way.
We all know people that impact others in maybe like a negative way where people will talk about that person behind their back. But that person's not like oftentimes aware of that because if they were aware of that, they'd probably go and fix it. So I have that, I guess, anxiety or fear is that I'm like doing something where...
It's impacting people in a negative way, but I'm not even aware of it. Right. And then I feel like that's a potential source of shame because that means like, I'm like a bad person. Don't we all do that though?
Of course. We all have blind spots. I think. That impact other people. I think. I think. And then I think like it impacts different people differently, right? So like some people like are comfortable enough in their own skin. And so it doesn't shatter their world or something. Or they don't go around thinking about this every day, right? And I would say by, you know, in large part, I feel like I just function better.
at a normal level, especially as I've just gained better understanding of myself and others and gained more life experience. But at the same time, like occasionally I'll wonder and be like, oh, is there something I'm really missing out on?
And I think there's some guilt or shame or whatever you want to call it that's associated with that. Well, let me ask you an honest question. How much would you truly want to know, right? Like what you're missing out on, you know what I'm saying? Because it's one thing, like when you don't know, it's like that boogeyman, right? Because you don't know and you think it's out there. But then sometimes at the same time, you also don't want to know the real truth because that hurts too. Totally, totally. And then everyone has different kind of levels of,
or abilities to handle criticism and feedback and the hard truth. And it always hurts, but some people are even more kind of like sensitive to it. Like honest question. I'm not saying I have something locked and loaded to like throw at you. I'm just saying like how much would you really want to know? Like if I were to right now and be like, okay, Eric, here are all the things I've never told you that I'm
I feel you do that really negatively affect our relationship or my feelings towards you. Like, what if I was feeling right now? Oh, I see. How much, like, in your heart of hearts, how much would you really want to know? And if you did, how well would you think you can take it? Okay, well, thanks for asking the question, giving me an opportunity to respond to this ax that you've been grinding, right? And this is like a perpetual theme of the show. I think deep down, we all know that we love each other a lot.
Otherwise, we wouldn't put up with each other, but we like to like, sha, wushang, right? It'd be like, oh, you actually, I think you're a total fucking dick, right? But it's like, look, if I was that big of an asshole, would you still be, would we still be doing a show together? It's like, no, right? So you have to use your common sense, but that fear, that anxiety is obviously there. I would say in general that I want to know. I'm actually known...
in the work environment, and this is only really in the context of work, right? So I want to distinguish that. It's not like at work you sometimes separate like your personal and your work a little bit. But there is, you know, if you're a total asshole in your personal life, it might bleed into work. Or just your personality bleeds into it. Right, right, right. Because you are who you are. Right, but it's not exactly the same thing. So there are elements of your personality that could impact your work, you know, persona. Yeah.
And there's a lot about just your performance and your competency and all that stuff, right? Like how well you do. And I would say in those regards, like I'm generally considered someone that is really open to feedback. I want to know because I want to get better. And I don't want to be surprised. I don't want to go through my life and then one day be like, oh, you totally suck. It's like, no, tell me where I'm not like meeting standards now so I can work on it every day.
And I think if you work on it every day, then you won't be surprised because no one wants to get their performance review after a year and be like, oh, I thought it was awesome. When there's nothing you can do about it anymore. And there's two things, right? One is you don't want the shock because no one wants to be negatively surprised. And then two is you can actually work on these things. So I don't know. I think I took a lot of things kind of as an identity or a fixed static thing earlier in my life because I think maybe...
The way I was raised was all about your identity. And then I think over time, as I've worked in different places and met a lot of smart and really helpful people, I realized that everyone's on a journey and growing. And there was that shift in my thinking. Because like my parents were totally just about absolute standards. It's like if you don't, you know, like you're eight years old and you're like, yeah, if you don't get a perfect score in your SAT, you're fucked.
I'm like, uh, I'm like eight, you know? It was like, if you're PSAT, you scored this shit, you're done. Your whole life, you're done. Like that's very Asian, right? If you fail at any point, they project it into like your entire future. So they were using like scare tactics.
right? I don't know if they scare you. I don't know if they were using scare tactics. I just think that's how, like there was so much pressure and stress in terms of being an immigrant and, and all that stuff that like, that was just survival for them, right? There's no, well, do you, okay. And I think I already know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Do you think the reason why I said scare tactics is, do you think they truly believed that,
Okay, if you didn't score this test, you truly fucked? Yes. Or do you think they were exaggerating just to kind of press the sense of urgency in you to study better? I think it was a combination. Because parents do that too. Yeah, yeah. I don't think they were like that sophisticated, right? I think a lot of them, I think it was both, but I think a lot of it was just like when you are on the brink of sort of your life going in different directions during, in their circumstances, being immigrants-
you know, not having grown up in a wealthy country like the, even in the US, there's like the depression and all this stuff, right? I think sometimes like they just have to simplify things and be like, you've got to go after every scrap. Going back to this idea of scare tactics, there are, we talked about this in a previous show, I think, like the carrot and the stick and some of the
the differences we had growing up in different cultures and even generalizing to like Asian versus Western. And I think like, you can't just look at like geography. You also have to look at time. Cause if you, if you flip back like a hundred years and,
you know, the US, they're way less liberal than China is even now. Yes. Right? 100%. Like Anne's parents were like hella liberal, like as liberal as any Western family. And we forget that all the time. Yeah. We forget that like
Kind of a lot of societies take the same path. We're just at different stages on that path. And we like to take these snapshots of what it is today and make all our judgments based on that. And it's just like, this is not, it's not accurate and it's unfair. We forget all the other factors, right? We, we, we like simplify to one factor, like where you're from, but really it's like where you're from, who your family is, like the actual family,
parents that you have and their grandparents and their parents and all that stuff, the timing, there's so many different factors, but we like to sort of generalize. Now I'm going to generalize. But I think Asian parents from a certain era, they used, if you want to call them scare tactics, but essentially what they said was like, here are a few different outcomes. Now, rather than highlighting the desirability and the appeal of a good outcome and encouraging you
They use the reverse approach, right? And they basically said like, if you don't do these things, then this negative thing is going to happen to you. It's kind of like two sides of the same coin. Different people respond in different ways. Some people respond like they really respond to like getting a kick in the ass.
I learned over time that I'm not, I do respond that way sometimes, but I prefer to be motivated and encouraged and recognized. And I don't like that pressure, although I can perform. And then what has ended up happening is I've internalized it. If I had people around me, like these old friends, like let's go back to that, and they were like negative and beating me up all the time, I would like rebel. Like I can't even deal with that shit. I would just run.
However, I still do that to myself. So when you look at some of the habits that I built out and routines, it's still like motivated by scare tactics. So rather than me like...
finding the joy in something sometimes. It's more if I haven't worked out today, I'll just start thinking negative thoughts. I'm like, you fucking loser. You're gonna get this and that. You're gonna get heart disease. You better work out or you just wasted your whole day. So there's certain things I still use those pressure tactics on myself, although I would not take that from any other person. And I've said this before, look at the people around me. I've built a whole community network environment
of positive and encouraging people that are like good hearted. You know what I'm saying? Because I think I was exposed to enough harsh things growing up that I just don't like that kind of food kind of thing, right?
I gravitate, but I still do that to myself inside. So all of these old friends that we're talking about, they're inside of me, they're in me. I can't get rid of them sometimes. - I wonder if all motivation can be boiled down to a root emotion of fear. If you strip everything away layer after layer, do you think all motivation can be boiled down to some sort of fear? - My immediate response would be no.
I think that like without being super well-versed in like brain chemistry, I think that there are parts of your brain, the higher level parts of their brain that respond to other things and fear like your amygdala and certain things that there's certainly a
a very, very consistent response that most people have. But I think there's many different types of motivation. And we use this sort of technical term. If you read about this stuff, it's called valence. And if you think about valence, it's like in chemistry, you use valence like a positive charge or a negative charge.
psychology my understanding is that valence has like you can have positive negative valence so certain things can have a positive valence meaning that they appeal to you like you want to go do them like you want to go to Disneyland I don't think there's any fear in like Disneyland right that's like you go to Disneyland and you're like wow I'm excited and I think that's what we're talking about when we get on the show is like when we're really joyed to do something I think joy is one motivator like
And then there's another thing with the negative valence, which is fear. And then different people in positions of power, like your parents, based on how they were raised, right? Remember Steve Shi? And so they might employ different motivating things. Because everyone who's in a position of power wants to get the people that they control to do something, right?
And it can be very positive intent. Like my parents wanted the best for me. And I think overall they did, you know, I'm very grateful. At the same time, they used a lot of negative valence things. I don't like that shit. I don't want to do that. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Like what about you and, you know, you're a kid, right?
What about? Do you use scare tactics? He just turned one. What scare tactics would you use right now? No, some people, I don't know. He literally just turned one years old. He's only been alive for one year. I can't imagine how he's using scare tactics. What kind of scare tactics am I using? I don't know. Who knows? No, but I just think going back to the motivation thing, I think motivation is a very complex and layered thing.
emotion if you were to really break down. Is it an emotion? Well, not an emotion. I guess a feeling. I don't know how you would describe it. I think on the surface, some motivations can look very simple and look very basic. I'm motivated to do well in my job. I'm motivated to lose weight. I'm motivated to exercise more. Whatever your motivation is, right?
Wait, hold on, hold on. There's different degrees. Well, I want to maybe put a finer point on it, right? So like losing weight or these things, I think that's the outcome. And the actual motivation or the motivating factor, right?
I think that's something, it's separate. Yeah, and I agree with that. Like there's an outcome, and then there's like the actual emotion or a feeling or whatever it is. That's why I feel it's more complicated than we think, and it's more layered than we think, right? Because even your example of like, oh, I want to go to Disneyland, right? I knew you were just...
using that as just like a random example. - But we all have our Disneyland. - I understand that. - I'm arguing that there is something that we all, like when I was thinking about coming to the show today and I thought Howie was coming, I didn't know that I was just gonna be stuck with this awkward conversation with you. I was excited.
And then I thought, I was like, oh, all the comments you made about let's make sure that we have fun on the show. We never want it to feel like it's a burden or an onus or whatever. And it just rang so true to me. It's like, we've set up this environment. It's pretty chill. And it's like the three of us are friendship that I really enjoy. Because you and I or me. So you only enjoy the three of us friendship, not the two of us friendship? Yeah.
It's like my experience with us is generally with the three of us. And if anything, outside of that, the second most is like me and Howie. So I actually feel in general the most comfortable with the three of us, but I also feel reasonably comfortable with Howie one-on-one. And the least comfortable with just me and you. Relatively speaking. But like more comfortable with you than like 99.99% of the planet, right? Yeah.
And because just amongst the dynamic. But like, here's the funny thing. You and I have, we've actually never hung out alone hard.
hardly ever. Like, have we ever had like lunch or dinner together? Because our friendship is, I don't know, like, it's like we're really, really close. Like, I've said this so many times. It's like, I don't know why I always felt connected with you, but we weren't actually that close, even when I was in Beijing. But it was just... We never did like the typical thing. No, we never did the typical things, right? We never played basketball together. Like, I've done stuff with Howie, right? And then I've been through like some personal situations where, you know, like...
like back in the day, like, you know, something you break up with a girlfriend and be like, first person I would call would be Howie. And he is very empathetic and he's very experienced in that kind of stuff. Right. And then we all know that like, you're very private in certain ways. And so it's like, it's really weird. Like our friendship, like I would consider you one of my closest friends. And at the same time, we don't actually hang out alone that much. And then now. It's a strange dynamic. Yeah. And, and we have to like, and I don't know how, and I would guess that you don't have that many, like you and Howie are,
I think are the most comfortable one-on-one relatively. So I don't know how many people that you have that are like one-on-one friends. Like, do you have a lot of one-on-one friends? I don't. Exactly. Right. We know that about you. Not anymore. Yeah. Like, I mean, in America you did. Yeah. But I don't think it's, again, going back to your, your, your, your concept of geography, not isolating just geography, but also including timing. Um,
I don't think it's an America or China issue. I just think as we get older, or at least as I got older, I had less and less one-on-one friends. That's a funny term too, right? The one-on-one friends. But it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. And I totally get what you're saying. Because we can all say, oh yeah, I have a bunch of friends. But how many of them
are truly one-on-one friends. One-on-one friends, meaning like you spend one-on-one time together routinely and it's like totally comfortable. And like you do it out of like, because you purely want to be there. That's like when you're at your most vulnerable, like think about it, right? Like you have to call or whatever this person or text and then be like, let's go do something. And then you have to hang out. Just me. Yeah. And let's like, you have to commit to that time.
That's like, it's so easy to hang out in a group. Yeah, exactly. Right? And you can have like acquaintances that are not like friend friends, but like you're friendly with them, you know, but you would also include maybe in that broader friend circle, right?
but that's not a one-on-one friend, right? And most one-on-one friends, like a real one-on-one friend, it doesn't feel like a burden. It's like you actually want to hang out. It's like totally comfortable, right? It strips you down to your most essential emotions. And if there's any level of discomfort, you're not gonna be like, you know, go out. Well, the whole one-on-one friend concept removes, gets rid of all the bullshit and pretext. Because like you can set up a meeting with somebody
And then it's like, oh, like, you know, there's maybe an agenda there. A true one-on-one friend, like there's no agenda, there's no pretext, and it's just we're hanging out. Totally. And you can hang out and just literally do nothing. And then it's totally, you're still hanging out. Like you don't even have to use the podcast to get me to hang out with you. You know what I'm saying? So then. So let me, wait, so let me throw the question back at you. How many one-on-one friends would you say you have? Do you have a lot? I would say I have a decent amount. Like that's my personality.
I wouldn't say I have millions and millions, but I would say I feel quite comfortable in general and I have quite a few one-on-one friends. But not the most, but definitely not the least. Yeah. I mean, if I just had to throw out a random number, I would say 10 or, I mean, for sure at least 10, but I'd have to think about it. - Yeah, okay, okay. I wanna get back to something though that you pointed out
And I totally agree. And I think it was a very honest take from you in terms of the dynamic between us three and the comfort level of like, when like we're most comfortable when it's us three, your second most comfortable when it's just you and Howie and your last least most comfortable within the dynamic context of us three, which is me and you. But if that's like gold, silver and bronze, then it's still like, you know, you'll get a medal. You're still on the podium, right? Yeah. I totally get it. And yeah,
I think I would, to be honest, I would probably feel the same way. But that's, but the way I see it is that that's why I actually value and cherish these one-on-one moments like we're having right now even more. You know, like my one-on-ones, like if we were to, if I was to do a podcast, just me and Howie,
Like, yeah, it's fun. But to be honest, I kind of take it for granted because it's like, okay, yeah, we can just like, we can just riff on anything and you know, it will be whatever. With you, I actually take these moments and be like, oh, like this is good. Like I really want to have these like next two hours just be me and you because we hardly, we never really get to do this. So, which makes me like kind of just value the space a little more.
I don't mean to get cheesy on you, but I really feel that way. So that's why I see that in that sense, where it's more special to me. And I think that's powerful too, because then you don't have to view the relationship through the lens of some kind of slight awkwardness or anything like that. Well, I think there's two things, right? That one is then you
you don't have to view the relationship in this way that highlights some of the unfamiliarity or the strangeness. And I think too is that because we are very close in general, the one-on-one dynamic piece is just one dynamic of a friendship, but trust, respect, admiration, care, love, all that stuff is part of it. So then I think how often do you get an opportunity to build a relationship?
because like you don't really you're not aware of it you like for instance like you're already a one-on-one friend but like that courtship that courtship part is kind of like laughing
Oh, I don't know. And we take it for granted sometimes, right? The courtship part. It's like sometimes you get to a level where you're so close to someone, you just take that courtship for granted, right? Yeah. And I think like, you know, I think that's probably a complaint my wife would probably have is that like, I don't really like, I'm not like romantic anymore. I don't like woo her enough. Yeah. Because it's like, we've been together for so long. It's like, all right, like, I don't feel like I have to do this, but that's
That's not the point. And I should be doing these things because that's part of like maintaining a healthy marriage, a healthy relationship. Yeah. It's where you should be investing your time because you know it's going to work because you have a one-on-one relationship. So you should just keep milking it and go to the bank and wooing this person because that relationship already exists and you can even like make it stronger. So you shouldn't just, no relationship should be static if you care about it. You should always be making it stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger.
Agreed. Right? Yeah. Well, maybe one day we'll actually like go out and, you know, have a bite. But we'll start with like lunch. Like dinner's a bit intimate. Yeah.
- Wait, how did we get to like demons or what torments us to this? - To like one-on-one courtship, it's so funny. But these are the most awesome relationships. This is like, I mean, let's talk about this one-on-one thing, right? What makes it a one-on-one relationship or what's a sign of a one-on-one? Okay, here's a sign of a one-on-one relationship. So you're traveling, so this person lives in another city, used to live in the same place, became friends, close friends, had lots of good memories together, war stories.
And then you travel to their city. And the first thing you do is you text them and call them before you get there. Not when you get there. Because when you get there, then it's like they're not really a one-on-one friend. You're just bored.
before you even go, you're like, oh, I've got to make sure I call this person. And I have to meet them because meeting them is actually, if I don't meet them, then I've wasted my trip in a way. That's a one-on-one friend. I think the way I used to describe one-on-one friends is like if they called you and be like, I need to stay at your house for two weeks. And you would be like, okay, no problem.
That's a one-on-one friend. Yeah, that would qualify for a one-on-one for sure. Yeah, yeah. So now if I think about that definition, it's like 10 to 20. But of that 20, there are some that I might not have seen for a while. But that's a fraction of the definition to me because you're just...
you know you're using one kind of example no that's just one factor yeah like you have to have had like life experiences together you have to have maybe confided them in them in certain things like they know stuff about you maybe no one else happens to know because in that moment you spent enough time where you confided in them and then you know about them um you know there's a lot of different things that would factor sure but i don't see it as like there's this checklist right like
to me, it's just the feeling. It's a level of comfort you have with somebody. And obviously a lot of those things that might be on a quote unquote checklist will contribute to that level of comfort ultimately. But so I don't over complicate it. I just think of like, how comfortable am I really with this person? How close are we? Basically a one-on-one friend to me is someone that I can feel is like a sibling,
And with like a sibling, like a family member, you don't like need to like tiptoe around or walk on eggshells around them. There's not so much judgment, but that varies family to family for sure. But it's just like this, like I can just show up at your front door and it'll be fine. It'll be without any warning. It'll just be like, yeah, sure, come in. Well, I also think that's only part of it too, right? Of course, of course. Because I also think there's the joy piece of it that's,
that one-on-one friend where if there's something cool, you want to go do it with like this person. So you feel comfortable enough and you want to experience something so you have that shared experience and you can talk about it. I also think that like,
one-on-one friend doesn't necessarily mean like the true meaning of like, you know, super duper close friend. I think it's one property of it. So I'll give you a very strange way of looking at it. So imagine like, you know, we're on the Titanic or something like that, right? And I've only got like five life vests to pass out. And all these people that I know are down there and I can only say five, right?
Like you would be fucking up there, even though we're not like one-on-one hangout all the time, friends. I wouldn't hold that against you. Like you'd be up on, you would be like really high up on my list. I would be the fifth person who gave the life vest to him. Of the five life vests. Well, I don't know about that. I mean, I got a lot of one-on-one friends.
I'd be backup reserve. But even the one-on-one piece, right? But no, you would be super-duper high up there because I think other factors would factor into it, right? Like the trust that you have, the admiration, the spiritual connection, right? Like the fact that you feel comfortable hanging out with someone is a really good...
proxy for friendship. But sometimes like you just, you feel comfortable hanging out with someone just, I don't know, for whatever reason, the chemistry, but maybe you're not really that close. It could be the other way around. If you draw all these Venn diagrams, how they intersect can be very different. But it is an interesting topic.
And then I actually, you know, I've thought about this a little bit before, but in the last few years, like I created a list of people that I'm grateful for. So it's not exactly the same as a one-on-one friend because I have a lot of family in here.
But I do have a list in my journal of people from family to current friends to work friends to childhood friends. And I actually have a list, and it's actually called my gratitude list. And I actually don't reference this as much as I should. But I think it's important that you jot down some names and then really make the effort to stay in touch because I think that's part of...
joy and happiness and fulfillment in life is like not to spend all your time working on something and trying to achieve something, but actually just looking at all the people in your life and checking in with them and building a relationship and spending time with them.
But I actually have a list now that I'm looking at it. I have a list. Yeah. How many names do you have on that list? Well, it's got family. It's got, it's, you know, there's quite a few people in here and I'm looking at some of the, I'm like, oh my God, I haven't talked to that person in a couple of years. Right. And then, and then I see one name on here, like, like a girl that I knew since I was six years old.
And to her credit, we grew up in the same neighborhood, same school. But last few years, she's reached out and she's gone and visited my parents. And she's on my list. And I'm like, I'm really grateful that, you know, this person I knew for so long is still sort of, you know, like we were never really one-on-one friends, but I've known her the longest. And she recently like actually stopped by my parents' house. My mom was like,
My mom saw some stranger roll up. Luckily, it was a girl. And she was just like, I don't know you. She shut all the doors. This girl's like, hi, I know your son. And my mom's like, this is some scam. Some religious cult. Cheers, man. Yeah, cheers. Because I've been holding this in since the beginning because we started off with asking each other what torments us. Then you asked me.
I never got to ask you. Well, we didn't even unpack like your shit. Like the stuff that torments you is so strange. Yeah, but I mean, we need like multiple episodes. You need therapy. It's like, why do you like, okay, I'll just be. But I think you're trying to. Deflect. Deflect. I'm trying to use, I want, you know, sometimes it feels good to practice fundamental attribution error. Like it feels good. It's like, hey, I want to be judgmental. I just want to judge you. It's like, well, why do you let other people dictate your life, dude? No.
- No, I mostly don't. That's why if I let other people dictate my life, I wouldn't be sitting here right now doing a podcast. - No, I'm saying why do you let people like other people outside of kind of your own self torment you then? - And you don't? - I think that, well, I think there's a nuance.
I don't think that I let others torment me as much anymore. Like, but then I've just internalized their torment. And then it's just like, I just torment myself. You know what I'm saying? That's like, like, so if I think specifically, I don't know who you're referring to. Right. But like, if I think about my family, like,
I'm not tormented by my family, one iota. However, I think they did the ultimate inception and they just planted their expectation into me. So now I just torment myself. Isn't that kind of ironic? So what torments you now? Okay, so the old friends that torment me now, one is self-doubt sometimes of like not being good enough. Because like I've...
My programming, right? So like all that childhood torment then programmed me to have certain expectations of myself. So then now those are embedded in me. And I think I have high standards. So inevitably then, you know, you're always pushing yourself to get into a group or a club or a club.
or whatever where like there are expectations and then like you, again, you worry about... Are you validated? Yeah. Yeah, like or are you making, you know, mistakes and you don't belong? Yeah. So...
Yeah, I think that, like, I think, like, yeah, sometimes what torments me maybe is, like, that feeling of, do I really belong? Is that why, like, you have this habit, and we've talked about this before openly, is, like, having to qualify a lot of things, like, it's qualifiers. Maybe. It's connected. Because then you're connecting yourself with credibility and things like that. Yeah.
What else torments me? I think something that torments me after the fact is like this sometimes like hyper focus on myself. Like if I go out and I focus on others, I'll never regret it. Like I'll come back and be like, oh, that felt great. And it's only like in certain moments where I get so caught up in myself that later on I feel bad about it. And I'm like, you know, isn't that kind of very self-centered and kind of, you know, immature of me to do that.
Is it because like you're aware of some sort of tendency you have maybe in the past to focus too much on yourself? And so that's something you're actively trying to fight? Yeah. I mean, like all these...
you know voices right so yeah i think that would torment me and then time yeah for sure like just realizing that you don't have forever on earth and i think like also just like there's a lot of things that people want and sometimes what torments people is like this tension between everything that you want and then all of the energy they have to put into things to get there it's like sometimes you just want to chill you just want to go after all these things but that torments me too
Part of me wants to just like chill and the other part of me wants all these things and they come into conflict, like conflict every day, right? So then your motivation varies over time. Like I would want to just be like,
I think I'm pretty motivated. I get more and more motivated and I'm generally, people might consider me highly motivated. But I think there are times when I'm not motivated and that torments me. So then I'm trying to figure out how to motivate myself like 100% of the time, which is also not that healthy. Yeah, like being driven just by achievement and wanting to,
achieve things is also not good. Like even my vacations, right? You know, like I'm going on vacation. Like achieving for achieving sake? Or achieving because like who knows what's behind that? It's like a feeling of inadequacy, lack of security. Like I mean, like you said, it's very, very complex.
Where's all that shit coming from? And then you go back to mindfulness. And so I want to go back to that initial comment you made. So when I think about mindfulness and the things that resonate with me, it's being able to just be happy in the moment without...
turning up the volume on all kinds of different things. It's like in that moment, whatever is happening, you're able to fully appreciate and take in whatever is happening in that moment and just letting go of any type of judgment or need for control in that moment. That to me is like mindfulness. And I'm like terrible at it. I practice, I meditate every single day.
But if you count up all the moments that I'm truly mindful, because meditating doesn't equate
to mindfulness. Mindfulness is a state that you can get to if you meditate. Like if you add up all, like I've meditated maybe like 30,000 minutes or something like that. I don't know, like maybe two or 3,000 times over the last few years. The number of seconds that I'm truly mindful is like a handful, you know? It's pathetic. Like I even track my mindfulness as like a KPI. Yeah.
How do you track mindfulness though? Well, now like fucking like, you know, the whole thing of self-tracking and like quantifying your results is like so common. There's millions of apps out there that connect to the health app on your phone. Like everything is connected. But that can track like when you're actually being mindful? No, it tracks your meditation, not when you're mindful. Yeah. So how do you track when you're mindful? Oh, that's just the feeling. It's just feeling like, oh, I'm being mindful right now.
Yeah. And you know it. Yeah. You know it. Because in that moment. Because that's the very definition of being mindful. Yeah. You feel. Yes. If you don't know you're being mindful, then you're not being mindful. Right. And if you don't feel it, it's like, because it's a nice moment.
Right. I mean, some people like, you know, they like, I don't know, Sam Harris will be like, oh, it's like freaking this and that. Right. But I think when you are mindful, you get close to that state. I think you do experience a little bit of joy because I'm always rushing. I think most people in modern society are just rushing or just trying to get through everything. It's like I'm always moving on to the next thing. I'm never just doing things to be in the moment. I think sometimes we're on the podcast. I think we're actually mindful.
If I have to think about when am I most mindful, it's two things. It's one when I'm running. Even when I'm running, I'm stressing out sometimes 'cause I'm like, oh, this kind of hurts. Or I need to get to 40 minutes, right? But I think maybe the podcast is the medium in my life where I get to mindfulness the most. - I'm certainly, I think, at my most mindful
on the podcast as well. Yeah. Just being happy with like whatever you're, that's happening in the moment without wanting to have a different moment. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Without thinking of the next moment. Yeah. Like, like cause we're, we're in here, there's phones off nowhere else to go. Yeah. We are like this, whatever is going to unfold is going to unfold in these couple hours and you're just buckling for the ride. I mean like,
There's no other thought than the conversation itself. Yeah. And I, the way I, and then also I think like the way I've heard mindfulness described or just in the state that you want to be in is also defined, like they define the opposite of it. Like what's not mindfulness, right? And what's not mindfulness is like, you're not content with this moment and you want a different outcome. Hmm.
Like I'll give you an example, right? Like let's say you're in a car and you're trying to get somewhere. Not being, being very not mindful is like you're stuck in traffic and you just want to fucking, you want that car to like teleport to where you need to go. That's like the opposite of mindfulness. You're so frustrated in the moment that you want something different. So I think it's like most of our lives we're not mindful and we know what that feels like.
But obviously you've studied this stuff much more than I have. My question is, in order to be mindful, is there, is the prerequisite that you have to be content with the moment? I think you have to accept it. I think acceptance. So there's a, but so there's a difference between,
There's a big difference between accepting and being content with something. - Yeah. - Right? Like you can not be content with it. Like I don't, I'm not happy about this, but I accept it. - Yeah. - And then you just live in it, but you're not content. Right? There's a difference there. - I think you make a super good point because they're obviously like very bad. There are many bad experiences and circumstances in life. And I think that mindfulness,
One goal of mindfulness is to make sure that things aren't worse than they need to be, right? So I agree with you. That you're not the one making it worse. Right. Through your own thoughts and feelings. 100%, yeah. So I think, absolutely. That's a really important point. Yeah, it's not about being just content. I think the argument then to maybe, let me kind of correct what I was saying earlier
Is that like in the modern world that we have lots of opportunities to be content, but because we don't accept the moment, we're actually like preventing ourselves from feeling that contentment. Because like we're not like poor or like, you know, starving and knock on wood, like our health is good and all that stuff. So most of us have an opportunity to have much more contentment
If we could practice mindfulness. Yeah. Right? And then it's even more important. Let's say you really are suffering, like things are really fucked up, then mindfulness arguably in those moments is even more important than in the good times because then you really need something to help you accept things. Yeah, it's cool to talk about mindfulness, right? There's like...
Like, think about it. - Well, here's the thing, because we've mentioned the term mindfulness so much on this show. - Yeah. - And to be honest, I always thought I kind of understood what it means, but I think today it's like, it's peeling back a layer of like, oh wait, like it's, maybe I don't really fully understand what it means, right? And I'm just taking the term for granted, like, oh, mindfulness, being in the moment, whatever, right? We threw out these catchphrases and we think we know what it means,
But what does it truly mean to be mindful, I think, takes a lot of reflection and thought.
to really kind of try to understand. And as you were talking before, a great visual came to my mind in terms of the kind of difference between being content with something and accepting something. And it's like the idea like we're all going to go through turbulent times. We're all going to have ups and downs in our life. We're not going to be able to prevent that. So it's kind of like
sitting on a boat and you're sitting on a boat imagine yourself sitting on a boat right and the waters can be calm one moment they can be choppy the next moment you can be in like a hurricane the next moment and there's literally nothing you can do about that because that's the ocean you're not going to control what the ocean does and the weather and all that
So you can either sit on the boat and accept it, or you can be like freaking out, running around on the boat, doing all these things that will have no effect on what the waves and the weather is doing.
But you're making your own experience a lot worse. I think maybe that is one way to kind of visualize it. I love it. I love it. I love it. There's a lot of significance to what you said. One thing I want to highlight as we're talking about this and gaining understanding, actually there's two things.
One is that you can talk about mindfulness and use the word mindfulness all you want without having any understanding of it. Okay. And you can have never been exposed to the word mindfulness, but actually have experienced it.
Yeah. If that makes sense, right? No, no, no. Because everyone can be mindful without actually having a formal introduction to what it is. But if you know what it is and you study it, it can help you understand maybe some of the conditions to get to that point so you can create those conditions more easily, right? So, okay, that's one. The second one, and I got this from Sam Harris, and I'm kind of just...
interpreting or sharing kind of a perspective is that like a lot of those meditation apps, I mean, this is like everywhere. It's like freaking yoga, right? Like everyone talks about mindfulness and a lot of them talk about the benefits of mindfulness. And I think a lot of times it's also important to understand outside of like the benefits of like health, because it gets positioned as like, if you do this, you get this benefit, but there's like a core intrinsic value of mindfulness is as a state, right?
like independent of the health benefits, independent of reducing stress. And that's what Sam Harris calls out is that like, this is a great state of being. Like it's like the optimal state of being. And then you get all these other benefits, right? The others are just kind of like additional perks you might get. But it's not the core essence. It's not like, like the core benefit is the mindfulness itself. Yes. And all these other things that come along with it just happen to be nice benefits
kind of add-ons that also come with it. - Or a result of that, right? It's the causal thing. It's almost like mindfulness is just the core condition of being human. Like it's like stripping away everything, you know, Buddha under that tree and then he just realizes that, okay, there's shit loads of fucking suffering. Like a core part of human condition is suffering. And like there's mindfulness, right? It's just like getting the core essence of being like human, like stripping away everything.
I use three different apps. One is called Headspace. One is called 10% Happier and one is called Waking Up. And so like maybe like some people would know this, right? So I'm not trying to be technical for any, but Headspace is like a very popular app and they use a lot of cartoons. Your analogy of like the boat is,
is probably is similar to some of the analogies. They have like all these really crazy, cool analogies and they use cartoons. So animations in the app. And it's much, it's kind of like conceptual that way. So you can see like an ocean. I think there is one and they have like hundreds of animations. And that's like a lot of people, it appeals to people. The one that I learned when I started using it was like, it's the analogy that
Andy Puttycomb is the founder of the company. He says, imagine you're just sitting and there's like this cartoon visual. You're sitting there and then you see like a road of cars. So being mindful is just seeing all these cars pass by and then not going out and then running into the road. And then he says, but most of us, we see like one car and we just start chasing after it like a crazy person.
And these cars are like thoughts. And he says like, just step back. All these cars are like thoughts are going to come and go. And it's when we start chasing them that we like fuck ourselves up. So he has one certain approach to it. It's really interesting.
Now, 10% happier is much like he gets lots of different meditation teachers. They talk about compassion and empathy, and a lot of it links to work and life. So it becomes very personal. And then Sam Harris, he takes a very, and sometimes a very neuroscientific way of analyzing, okay, this is how the brain works. So it's very interesting. Everyone has different approaches. So I think going back to what you said, it's like you thought you might have understood this, but maybe you're not.
you realize that your understanding isn't quite as deep as you thought. I think that's really profound. I think it's like this beginner's mind. Like we'll never really know what it is. We just got to keep searching. Yeah. And I think that applies to almost everything. And this is something we've talked about repeatedly as well. It's like, we think we know, but we really don't.
Not at least to the depth that we think we do, right? Yeah, it just goes back to that example, like when I had Jamie Dixon on, right? And he was basically saying that like all matter can be perceived somewhere on the like electromagnetic spectrum. And he asked me to guess on the show, how much of the spectrum do we humans, can we humans perceive?
And I was like, oh yeah, very little, probably 20%. And he says it's actually 0.0035%. It just goes to show how much we really all don't know, but we think we know. And therein lies, I think...
Going back to the human condition thing and kind of conflict and misunderstanding, not just with each other, not just about the world, but like really with ourselves. I think that is a big causal factor of a lot of the shit we go through is that we think we know and we don't bother to question it and we live our lives operating on that. Yet our understanding is very shallow, you know?
I love that thought, and it's been articulated in different forms over probably most of humankind. The one that I love is from Mark Twain, the American author. And he has a point of view on this thing of the limits of our...
and what the implications are. And I love this, right? Because it talks about the impact. He says, it ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble.
It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. Yes, I remember that quote. I love that quote. Yes. It's not the fact that you don't know shit because we don't know shit, right? Like that's part of the problem. But the real problem is you think you know this shit, you actually don't. And then you live your life through that assumption. Yes. And then you get in trouble because that's not the reality. And that like these biases, right? What is a bias? A bias is you think you know, right?
But it's actually based on a false assumption. And what is human conflict? But two sides or multiple sides all having that and bumping up against each other. Now we get to the political part. Yeah. And in the Middle East, you know, it's like. And now is where we get. It's like. What side do you take? Yeah, exactly. So I'm reading about that and learning about it.
on that particular, you know, the conflict now in the Middle East. But what's interesting is there are some pretty interesting thinkers that start from the geographic map. It's like, well, let's not just look at like in the last 10 years who had this land and who was living there or even the last hundred years. Let's like, let's go from the very beginning. Let's zoom out. Yeah. Let's zoom out. Yeah, absolutely. We need to zoom out. I mean, we're not gonna. We're not gonna go. We're not gonna go there. We're not going there. But I just want to add to what you said
And this doesn't only apply to the current conflict, but applies to a lot of things. It goes back to this kind of reoccurring theme throughout this conversation today is about the dimension of time. And it's so, so important. And we forget that all the time. Because whenever we think of anything, I think the usual tendency is to start thinking about it
from kind of when you heard about the news. And it really, you have to understand history, you have to zoom out, you have to see the whole picture across the dimension of time and space to really get a better idea of what's happening. But no, we're just talking about like, okay, you know, whatever happened, you know, like, you know, a week or two ago, right? So it's like,
When you start it arbitrarily from that point of time, it's like you're missing out on 99% of the story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. A hundred percent. It's like you can't cherry pick the data because you're, you're basically cherry picking the data by being when you first heard about it. Yeah. Or, or like it can happen like geographically or from time or whatever it is. Essentially you're just taking a very small piece of data set that doesn't represent the
you know, the real issue. Yeah. And again, this applies to so many things that, you know, get politicized in this world. Even things that have nothing to do with politics, but like even understanding a person. Yeah. You don't, you don't under, you don't start gaining all your knowledge of the person from the day you met them. Yes. When,
When they're like 40-something years old. They didn't just become them that day. Yeah. They've been them their whole life. There's a whole story of how they became who they are the day you met them, right? Totally. I don't know. It's silly. It's silly. But there's a reason for it too, right? Because, okay, not to open up the can of worms, but...
you know, if we, again, if we go back to like what we're optimized to recognize, we're, you know, we're probably in some ways optimized to recognize danger. And like, like what happened 40 years ago, it doesn't matter if like you're that human being in the Savannah and there's like tigers everywhere. Yeah. Then you don't give a shit about like,
that tiger's been around for 20 years. The only thing that matters is the recency. And I think that might be one of the reasons why, as the world has changed, that we're still primed for recency when we should be looking at sort of the bigger picture. - That's a really good point. Recency bias, right? - Yeah, yeah. I wanna just share one quote, whether or not it's helpful and whether or not, like actually you might not give a shit in the context of what you're saying earlier, right? And some of your tormentors.
Because I believe that you should live according to what you want, not what others want. But if there are opportunities for you to be someone and work on things, I'll share with you a quote from George Eliot, the writer. It's this, it's never too late to become what you might have been. But I think...
what you might have been should come from you and not others. That's good. Mic drop. You're the king of mic drop. That was really good. I mean, I've always loved your quotes. You always had... Well, it's not mine. It's George Eliot's. No, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I don't mean your quotes, but I mean like the quotes that you say on this show from other people, right? But I've always loved them because every one of them is always like, yeah, that sums it up perfectly. Hey, chat GPT 4.0 is strong, man. Strong. Yeah, bore me somewhere with it. All right.
I just killed the bottle. Okay. No, that was fun. That was fun. I mean, we're like .5, you know, one-on-one friends, you know? Like, all right. We're .5 friends. Yeah, man. No, this is, I think, oh, okay, you downed it. I got it down. We don't need Howie. Howie who? Ha-ha who? That's why I always think I get deeper with you. I said that before we started recording. When we start vibing and we really go, I always get deeper with you.
You hear that? How we lamb? You turn everything into a competition. That's one of your things. That's one of your tormentors. Tormentors, yeah. All right, no more tormentors, okay? And what do we say? We say, hi, old friend. There you are. I know you. I know, I was like, hey, hi, old friend. I know you. I know you, yeah. I know you. All right, well, you're gonna keep running from that monster. Yeah. All right, let's wrap it up here today.
Let's do it. All right. All right, one-on-one friend. This is the start of a beautiful friendship. Well, we're like maybe 0.5, 0.8, 0.8. Yeah. Eight friends now. You know what? Let's end it this way. It's like, here's looking at you, kid. Wait, what? Like Humphrey Bogart, Casablanca. He's like, here's looking at you, kid. Cheers one more time. All right, man. I love you. All right. Love you, too. That's it for today. I'm Justin. And I'm an old friend.
Be good. Be well.