#131. Beef
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We back at it, we back at it, at it, at a new studio. Eric is here, finally. He's found. We found you, Eric. Yeah, leave the door. You showed up. Yeah, leave the door open next time, all right? It feels good to be back. It feels like a reunion. Yeah. It does feel like a reunion. Because we almost thought we lost Eric for a second there. Yeah, did you guys secretly wash my cup in the toilet? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Damn it! I didn't think of doing that! We put little nails and pins under your seat. Exactly. Yeah. Wait till you leave this. No, so basically what I got from today is that Eric really thinks the worst of us. Yeah, we get into that. He thinks we're just like conniving, scheming pranksters. They're always out to get them. Aren't you? Maybe. Maybe. We'll see. All right, well, let's get into it. Anyway, without further ado, here we go. Woo!

Yeah, cheers, guys. Come on. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. All right, guys. So this is like the first time we're actually sitting down and talking to each other in our new studio. That's still a work in progress, but at least we're getting it to a place where we're able to record now. We're getting there. Last weekend was a little snafu. We were playing a little Where's Waldo.

Good thing we're able to mend our differences and misunderstandings and come together like adults here today. Actually, Eric has no idea. So we ended up recording anyway, just randomly recording some random topics. And we're just like, we're keeping our phones on standby just in case. And plus the door open just in case you were to pop by and call because we couldn't reach you. And so we're like, we don't know where Eric is. I hope he's okay. Okay.

You know, it was really funny though, because I feel like this is one of those like come full circle moments of the podcast. Because in our earlier episodes, back when we were, you know, recording out of my apartment, you know, we also had like these like blow ups, you know, like borderline friendship ending fights. Remember that one time, like Eric was about to storm out too. We walked out to the elevator. Because you yelled at him. Actually, I don't really remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then, you know, that was like years ago. And then we're still like having these moments now, but we're in a new place and the podcast has come a long way since then as well. So I just feel like it's funny because it's almost charming in a way for us. It's cyclical. It's okay.

Well, what are the reflections that we've had this time? You mean since back then? No, well, yeah. Like how these things transpire, like the degree of emotion, that kind of stuff. Have we learned anything? At first it was more, well, should we, let's, if we're talking about this, let's explain to the listeners what happened.

So it's so juvenile though. It is very juvenile. It's extremely juvenile. Howie? Why bring my name into this? So last weekend we were supposed to meet to record an episode. Howie and I got here early to the studio to set up. And as we were setting up, we were playing music. And apparently Eric came to the door and was knocking on the door. We didn't hear him.

But as he was knocking on the door, we just never answered the door. So he got very upset because he rushed over from a very far place. And it was really hot. You text us to ask us if we are at the studio. It was like, okay. Yeah, I reply with an okay. But what I meant was the kind of hand gesture, the okay hand gesture to signify, yeah, we're here. And then I actually texted right after that because I wasn't even...

I didn't even read the text. Because we were so busy setting up. Because I was setting up the Wi-Fi and then Justin's like, send the password to the group chat or something. And I'm like, okay. And I just sent the password to the group chat. I didn't even look at your message until later. And then, so Eric never ends up showing up. Oh, so this thing here. Yeah.

Okay, that's so funny. Because that's all we have to go by. Because we have no other... But why did you send the password? I was building out the Wi-Fi. It wasn't my... Okay. He was head behind the refrigerator trying to connect the Wi-Fi. We were all busy, man. It wasn't like we were just sitting here looking at your text being like, we're not going to open the door. We're all moving around, sweating our balls off.

Okay, so anyway, you're knocking on the door, we never answer, and then you just disappear, and then we can't get a hold of you. So at first, it was a little bit of frustration. I'll speak for myself. At first, it was just frustration, like, where the hell is Eric? He's late. We said one o'clock, blah, blah, blah. So at first, it was a little bit of frustration. Then as half an hour became like an hour over an hour, then it became a little confusion. I was like, okay. Okay.

And then it became a lot of confusion when we tried to call you and you wouldn't answer. And then that's when it started. And then it became like two hours and then you wouldn't answer. Like both Howie and I both tried to call you. You wouldn't answer.

And then that's for me when I turned to Howie, because he wasn't, his mind wasn't even going there yet. My mind was like, oh, is Eric okay? You think something happened? Like that's logically where my mind, because to me at the time there was no other- We were going to call in. Yeah, there was no other rational explanation for what happened. Yeah, it didn't make sense to us. But maybe like two hours later you responded, oh, I was at the studio. I knocked and you guys didn't open, so I left.

But then we were thinking, if that was the case, it'd be totally reasonable to assume we didn't hear you knocking. And then you would have just called one of us or texted, be like, hey, I'm outside, open the door. It would have been like, you know, something simple like that, but that never happened. So...

So anyway, my mind automatically started assuming like, oh, is he okay? Did something happen to him on his way here? Did he lose his phone? Like- Yeah, the accident happened. Yeah, it was more about like your safety at that point. So that's like when me and Howie, we recorded an episode anyway, but I don't know if he'll make the final cut of the episode, but we were talking in the beginning. We're like, this is kind of a weird vibe because we don't know if, like we were worried. We were honestly worried about you. Literally, that was in the back of my mind. Like while we're having a conversation, I'm like, I really hope nothing fucking happened.

in it. Because then it would be just fucking ridiculous that we're just talking here. Little did we know he was just very angry with us. So from our perspective, it was just both weird, confusing, and worrying.

So that's to answer your question. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and it makes sense, right? Because these things, when you don't have all the information, and then you jump to conclusions. And water under the bridge. Let's move forward. So does that mean that we should maybe, the way we're communicating with each other needs to change?

be upgraded a bit. Is that what it means? Because you have not communicated with us about the issues before with waiting so that we even had an idea of that was getting built up. But I just think it's one of those things that happened because of multiple things coming together. And my reflection on this one is actually that you guys are really nice.

That was my only reflection on this one. It wasn't any judgment on it. I was just like, oh, you guys were one, working through and building up the studio. And then two, it was like slightly ironic that the way that things came across. And then three, you showed care later on. So maybe I should just think more positively about you guys.

Yeah, I'm just curious. But you're so brutal towards each other too because you guys have a different dynamic. Remember, we were talking about this the other week. You guys can send literally the most brutal things to each other. It's like, oh, I guess your career is over. Just really brutal stuff and then be like, no, that's just how we talk to each other. Okay, I get it.

So you guys have your own little weird thing. So, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked about the whole Jersey like humor and stuff like that, right? But I'm just... I was just listening to this and I was really thinking about just in terms of behavior, in terms of emotional behavior. Because personally, I'm trying to work on myself as well, especially this year. I've been...

going through my own stuff and trying to figure out, I guess maintain a better standard of behavior in general. And when you're saying, because what Justin was saying about the whole ignoring this whole week and how that was not only causing Justin and I to talk amongst ourselves, to be like, what is going on? We have no idea. We're trying to like guess and we were worrying. And then you on your side, because you were already upset about this whole situation, continuing the cold shoulder treatment.

Hold on. But it wasn't, it wasn't, I wouldn't characterize it as like culture. Cause like during the week, sometimes often we don't text each other. And I acknowledge, I said, I was there at blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you said something in the chat and that was on a Sunday. So in a sense, yeah,

That conversation wasn't like, I just didn't respond. And then during the week, we didn't have any conversation. You know, if you asked me in the time, was I still irritated? Probably because I didn't know what the hell was going on. But I don't think that I just like gave everyone a cold shoulder. Like, because I had not acknowledged, right? In the text, I took a nap. You called. I woke up. I think I texted something like, no, I showed up and I went home. No one was there. I went home. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's totally factual from my perception, right? Because I really didn't think anyone was there. Yeah, but we also called you like a billion times. No, twice. No, there's multiple. But that's whatever. So anyway, the point I'm trying to get at is the communication, right? Is there ever a point for anybody in any situation where,

to give cold shoulder, to be extra distant or to make that distinction. Well, it goes back to emotional neglect that we were talking about with Steve. Well, isn't cold shoulder just a form of emotional neglect? Maybe. Is that what he said? No, he didn't say cold shoulder. We were talking about the topic of emotional neglect. And I think giving someone the cold shoulder is just a decisive act of...

- Yeah. - Of the Muslim neglect. Like I'm not gonna partake in this with you, you know? - Yeah, yeah, exactly.

- I do it all the time. - And so that's why I thought the wifi password was like the ultimate like prank slash emotional neglect thing, right? Which maybe if I thought about it more deeply, like you wouldn't do that, it would be stupid. But then it just shows sometimes what I think about the three of us, not just you two, of me. Like, yeah, we would do, maybe like, I don't know, it's hard to say 'cause we are pretty childish sometimes.

And I include myself in that equation, right? Like I could totally see myself like, yeah, let's fuck with Howie because we're in a different frame of mind. And then maybe Howie's in a more fragile state or whatever. Right. I can totally see you two guys like, let's fuck with this guy. But then I'm already like pissed off from before. Yeah. And to be fair, it's totally within the realm of possibilities, right?

that it would be a prank, I guess. Well, now we know. I think that's the key. Yeah, we can move on. We've been harping on this for 45 minutes already? Yeah, I don't think anyone wants to say that. We just needed to talk it out. But it's funny, though. Well, it's not funny, but it's like...

In a way, this is kind of like where the show started, was just like us working out like all these issues emotionally we had with each other. Well, I, okay, I will say this, and I'll include myself when I say this. I think human beings can be really petty too. Yes. You know? And if you think about us, if this is the worst that we can do to each other, then I think we're really good friends because when you watch like TV shows, they're fucking bad.

you know, the misunderstanding, like a lot of TV shows are all about misunderstandings between people who, and then it has these crazy consequences. Like the whole premise of the show is there was a misunderstanding, like Desperate Housewives, like motherfuckers like die and shit. Right? Yeah. So if this is like the extreme of that, then we just need to be a little bit more mindful, you know? But I think that,

I probably should be less petty with things. Well, it's actually, it brings me, it brings up a thought in terms of culturally speaking. Do you think some cultures are just on the whole more petty than other cultures? Because with these like little acts of maybe impoliteness, right? Or are these little faux pas and etiquette,

Do you think some cultures react more strongly to those than other cultures? Because I get the sense and I could be completely wrong, but living in China for so long, I feel like I've had a few instances already where these like little things where I feel like if we were in the States, it wouldn't even have registered.

But it registers here a little bit in terms of these little slights that people perceive from you in terms of you weren't respectful enough to this person. You didn't show that hierarchy enough. You didn't show that, you know, just the respect, right? Or authority. And it registers and people kind of hold it in a little bit. Like they remember that a little bit more, I feel, than maybe in the States where we grew up sometimes. Yeah.

I could be wrong. Like people are pretty petty in the States too. I just feel like it's maybe not as much of a cultural thing. I think it's two-sided.

I think if you wanna look at it like at a broad cultural level, then that, I mean, that one's a little bit harder to, you know, to- - Well, just from your own personal experiences living in both countries, like how do you feel about it? - I feel like North Asian cultures in general, I think you might be able to see examples where there are certain norms and if those norms are, you know, violated, then there's like a lot of consequences to it. I think there's certain traditions, certain norms, right? Certain expectations, like between different generations of people, between different classes of people,

So I think the older the culture is, like you probably have some of these expectations and I think it's very individual. I think if you're a person that might have negativity bias, which I think I often have, like I know my family there, sometimes we have this tendency and it's a survival mechanism as well, right? Then maybe these, then you'll perceive certain things. I was reading about this actually, it's ironic and it's called fundamental attribution bias.

It's one of the, it's like a well-known phenomenon in psychology. What does that mean? And what fundamental attribution bias, and I'll describe it in layman's terms because that's the only way I can describe it. Well, that's the only way we can understand it. Yeah, well, no, but what I'm saying is like the listeners can check the accuracy of it, right? But my understanding is that

It's like when you see some type of behavior, many of us have this tendency to attribute it to the motives or the choice of that individual when sometimes that behavior is actually a result of the environment. So here's an example. You know, you see some person down the street maybe yelling at his car or something like that. Angrily. Yeah, or just emotionally. And you're like, oh, he's crazy or she's crazy. Like it's a psycho behavior.

But the reality is maybe like there's a baby in the car and the person accidentally locked the keys into the car. So fundamental attribution bias is like there's a perfectly reasonable explanation, right, of why the door isn't open, right?

but then your tendency is to attribute it to that person's motive or behavior. That person's fucking with you. Yes, or whatever it is. And it's like, there's this negative thing. Oh, it's great because it fits perfectly into what we were just saying. So you're attributing it to this particular person and maybe they're trying to do this on purpose, but the reality is that

anyone in that situation would have behaved in a similar way. And if you think about fundamental, if you really think about it, it's like the fucking root of all human evil. Like it's why wars get started, right? It's why like all kinds of conflict and misunderstandings happen is because like the way we look at things when it's on another person is different. There's another bias called, I think it's called actor something bias. And so essentially it's like, if you're observing a situation where,

then you're observing all of the people and the dynamic of the people and why they're behaving a certain way. But if you're the actual person in the situation, you're only observing the situation itself and you don't see the different angles to it. So then how you attribute behaviors is like, so you see a group of people and they're a bunch of idiots or they're bad people.

But when you are doing something, you're just actually processing the actual situation itself. So like putting yourself in another person's shoes. It's almost like you got the worst seat in the house in terms of... Exactly. It's the worst seat in the house. Exactly. It is very much the worst seat of the house. The way I like to view it is that

If you were in that person's situation, you would have done the same thing. But when you're viewing it, you just say that person's a dick. You have all these judgments. Yes, they're a bad person. And I think that's sort of like, and a reflection of this situation where I was sort of touched a little bit was that you guys viewed it in a kind of like, oh, is he okay kind of thing. I could have viewed it like, are these two guys okay?

But I didn't. I was like, these guys are fucking with me. So I don't want to overly defend myself, right? So I would say that you guys behave fairly maturely. But it is a sign that you guys have so many instances of immaturity in the past. Along with my own immaturity that came together and made me think this way. Because you guys, you surprised me at your maturity this time. Which is saying something. Right? Which is saying something.

So, so, so anyways, it's. But it's true, right? Like you were, what is it called? Fundamental attribution bias. And you're right. Like that is the human condition, isn't it? Yeah. Part of it. Part of it. And then actor observer bias. Something that's called actor observer is the other one. But I would say it's, it's a big chunk of it. Yeah. Because that's how do we perceive the world and all, all our judgments of right and wrong morality, right?

Everything stems from how we perceive things to be unfolding and how we process that.

And it's all skewed and biased to some extent. All of it. Like, it can't not be. What is that scientific experiment? It's like the very act of observing something, you alter it. Yeah, because you're adding in your own, you're adding in, you're filling all the gaps of information that is not given to you. And those gaps of information are 100% biased based off of your own experiences or your own experiences.

Or what happened to you that day. Yeah, sure. It's so fickle like that. Howie Spot on, you described that in such a, I think it's such an insightful way. There are missing pieces of information and it's like a choose your own adventure or whatever the book is. And that actually makes all the difference in the world. And then you fill in all that information with your own subjective stuff. Now here, and here's another distinction, right? And I think it's this actor observer bias, right?

which is that you guys were like busy doing all this stuff. Like you were happy, you were doing your things. So whatever you're gonna fill in the gaps in, in this mode is gonna be shaped by your state of mind. And then I was like unhappy. So then naturally I'm gonna fill in the gaps with negative information. So the actor observer bias, I think it's related. It says here, it's the tendency to attribute the behavior of others to their internal causes,

while attributing our own behavior to external causes. So we're never fair, right? So actor-observer bias is connected to the fundamental attribution bias. Well, it's also the fundamental concept of we're always the main character in our own movies, right? So the laws of physics work differently around us than for other people.

Brilliant. And the second part of this is exactly what you just said. In other words, actors explain their own behavior differently than how an observer would explain the same behavior. That's why it's called the actor-observer bias. And it's linked to the fundamental attribution bias because in the fundamental attribution bias, then we're the observer and that other person is the actor and we attribute their behaviors to their bad character.

See, I think we have gotten smarter because we basically were talking about this exact premise in our old, really old episode, The Worst Seat in the House. Yes. But we weren't able to talk about it in this kind of depth. Well, at least you've gotten smarter. No, no, no. You guys just, you guys literally just, no, I'm actually blown away because Howie just, you and Howie just...

in your own words, describe this thing. And then I'm like looking at the actual scientific description and you guys like nailed it. I think another important thing to point out with this, going back to what Howie said about filling in the gaps, I think the significant thing to point out is that

In my opinion, those gaps are so much more than what we know. Like going back to the idea of we don't know so much more than we do know. So it's not just like, oh, every now and then there's some gaps we need to fill in. No, the majority of all of it are gaps. And like the little speckles...

in this void are little things that we actually know, you know? So it's like, we don't know anything. I don't know how you guys got so fucking smart because this goes back to like, seriously, that was brilliant. This goes back to Morgan Housel. Morgan Housel wrote the psychology of money, like some other stuff. He's a pretty brilliant writer, right? Many years he worked for the Motley Fool and then he came out with this book and it's sold like millions and millions of copies. Like he's a pretty influential, you know, writer and thinker these days, right? Like popular stuff. But he writes in his book and he says, you know,

Basically, we know 0.000000001% of the world, but we think we know 80%. And that's where everything gets fucked up. And that's exactly what you said. We know the speckles, but the majority of things are the gaps. And so not only do we fill in the gaps, it's not like we're just filling in little details. Like we got the whole story fucking wrong. Yeah. Right? I got the whole fucking story wrong. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Like the entire narrative is wrong. Like the characters are right. Well, the characters, the pranksters. But that's the speckle. I was also hedging. And even that was a little bit off. Because we do like to fuck with each other. And there's an ego thing too, because none of us like to be pranked on. So I'm like, I ain't going to be pranked on by these motherfuckers. I'm just going to go home. That's like my ultimate like fucking, you know, mic drop. Like nuclear bomb. It's like see you never, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was see you never for like the entire week, dude. Did you like the see you never? And then I was just like, but that was an olive branch. That was my olive branch, dude. But because of everything that had transpired prior, I didn't know how to take it. Exactly. So see, now you know how I feel. So I didn't know if you were serious or joking. But I didn't know if you guys were serious or joking. And I feel like you purposely left it ambiguous just to fuck back with us. All right, all right. My bad, my bad. I think like I didn't want to lose because I know you guys are pranksters.

Isn't that funny though? I'm glad we learned something from this. Or at least hopefully I did. But Anne did also, did not disagree with me. But she did also say that,

don't let the see you never um wait so what happened you you you went home and then you showed and you were like these motherfuckers yeah and then she was like like all of the kind of like these fucking these fucking juvenile because she she already thinks you guys are a bunch of like she loves you guys but she thinks they're juveniles but then when i said okay i'm gonna say i'm gonna send a little joke see you never and she's like don't let that one sit

she said as soon as they say something just like you know just say oh i you know sorry yeah yeah she's like don't let that sit these are your friends she did say that but she but she did think so that's how little she thinks of you guys that you guys actually were pranking me when's the last time we pranked you it's been a while i think like a real i haven't pranked you in a while

I think it's more just the stuff on the show, right? Like just the making fun of that. Like, like, well, yeah, like, like we'd be the type that would do that. Yeah. Okay. But you know, that's the negativity bias too, right? That's just like one time a million years ago, a saber tooth tiger came out and maybe like chased one of my ancestors. And I'm still thinking that way. It's like, you know what I'm saying? It's like, like,

One time there was a Shang, like, in the prairies. They were fucking, like, sit-in or something. One time one of your ancestors got pranked. And forever, down his bloodline, they will never be pranked again. They have, like, a natural aversion to pranking. That's funny, though. That's funny. But, yeah. Like, I mean, look. In all honesty, that's what I kind of love about, you know, kind of the episodes we do together is just...

You know, not everything we talk about is necessarily for the listeners in a way. Like some stuff is just like us hashing things out. And I think nine times out of 10, whenever we do that, there's always some underlying lesson in there. Oh, yeah. That we can pull from it that everyone can learn from, you know, including along with us as we're learning it ourselves.

And it's not just learning it because I feel like all these concepts we kind of know, but it's about practicing them in the moment. And that's what is so slippery. It gets away from you because emotions run high.

And it's really tough to control your emotions sometimes. Yeah. Really, really tough. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it goes back. That is the human condition, right? Like we all, we're all emotional beings and it drives us. It decides so much of how we see each other, how we treat each other, how we treat ourselves. And it's hard to escape. It's really hard to escape. But step one is always being mindful of it.

and acknowledging it at least that it's there. Well, and think about this, right? If you know that fundamental attribution bias is like out there, like if you know that this is a fundamental characteristic of human beings, then the next time this happens, you kind of run through and be like, okay, well, could I be, I mean, could this be an instance of me just making shit up in my head, filling in the gaps? Yeah.

And then just take a note, right? That's why I like to kind of keep track of things. If they're one time, two time, three times, I assume the benefit of the doubt, I don't get burned. Then maybe I can draw a lesson from it too. I have a question. So when you face these type of situations, and I'm going back to the example you gave of the person seeing yelling or something to the car, right? And you watching that and being like, that guy's crazy.

Generally speaking, if you're not able to fill in the gaps and you can only work on assumptions and you understand this bias that you're talking about and being able to maybe question some of these gaps that you're filling in, maybe they are incorrect. Maybe it's not meant to be so, I guess, precise in your own perspective.

But on the flip side, if you're able to fill in the gap just by asking certain questions or approaching or adding communication, then like, why don't we do it? Right. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. So in that moment, yes, you filled in the gaps. You get these motherfucking pranksters, you know, and I'm going to, all this stuff already has accumulated from the past weeks. I'm out. That's it. Right. They're fucking with me. I'm out. I'm tired of this. That next step could have been, okay, stop. Hold on.

Well, if they are in there, maybe let me just find out for sure because they're fucking with me and I'm not going to take it. Before I launch the nukes, let me just make sure that my target is aligned before I launch the nukes. But play this one out, right? And then you find out and then all of a sudden the door opens like, ta-da!

You know what's funny? Because next week we are actually going to prank him. But you know the funny thing is that... And then he'll be like, they were never. Yeah, exactly. Not after this conversation. That's when we do it. I remember listening to Daniel Kahneman on a podcast a few years ago. I can't remember who was interviewing him. And I mean, he basically was the one that came up with like human beings are not rational, right? He did all these studies and...

all that stuff. And then I remember in the end, I have to find this, but he basically said it's hopeless. He's like, even if you know all this shit, it's like human beings are so irrational and emotional in the moment that in that moment, you won't be able to change your behavior. He's like, he was pessimistic about it. He's like, yeah, we do all this study. We hope that we can be mindful in the moment. He's like, but I don't think we will.

He's like, I can't even do it. He like this motherfucker, like he invented all this shit. He's a godfather. Yeah. And he's just like, yeah, I'm terrible at this shit too. Cause you're so wrapped up in the moment. The thing is you have to catch yourself before. So in other words, you have to communicate better beforehand. When you said come at one or blah, blah, blah, blah, right? I should have just been less lazy before.

You know what I mean? Like, oh, we'll be there. You're going to be there. You're going to be there and over-communicate in the very, very beginning. And I've done this like on the subway, right? Because it's easy to get confrontational of some people bumping on stuff. I try to just stay away from, like I try to do things before, right? I've always said- You're like the Hulk. You stay away from like crazy, noisy environments because you don't want to start into them. You're Bruce Banner. You're literally Bruce Banner. Because like if you look at a scale of one to 10 in terms of blowing up,

When you hit five or six, you will go to 10 like that. But when you're at a two, you can stop yourself from getting to a five. And so I think like it's really like the only thing you can do is like completely plan things in a way where you reduce the risk. But once you get in the situation, no one, I'm not going to be thinking about fucking fundamental attribution, but I'm like, that guy's a motherfucking dumbass.

Dumbass. Yeah. And another thing with Daniel Kahneman is like, he studies history a lot, right? Because a lot of his lessons are like based on historical cycles as well. So another reason why he might be so pessimistic about this whole thing in terms of our ability to really harness this and,

be better is that just look at the whole history of humanity. Like we really haven't changed that much. In terms of like our being and the way we treat each other, like human behavior itself, like sure, we have cars, we have buildings, we have internet, we got AI now. But our fundamental interactions and relationships, that's why Shakespeare lives on because Shakespeare

the fundamental tragedy of who we are as humankind, the way that the fundamental stories that are able to be told are still the same. There's still those same human stories just told in different ways. So we really haven't really changed.

But our environment has. And that's what I think when push comes to shove, maybe we're still similar. We're the same, right? But we human beings have recognized this. And so then we've created nations, we've created laws, we've created like nuclear weapon proliferation treaties. We've deescalated in that same way, like going from two to five, five to eight or

or five, you know, five to 10, we've deescalated ourselves in a way so that we've created an environment that's much more civil. Cause I imagine, right. And it's hard, like it's hard for us to say, cause again, I think we're, we're filling in the gaps with maybe without knowledge. I don't know how people treated each other 50 years ago, a hundred years ago, whatever. Right. But I imagine people are more civil now because like the environment it's cleaner. We don't like fucking spit all over the place. Right. Shit all over the place.

I think my grandpa was saying back in the day that like people were quite,

you know, not very civil, didn't have very good manners. So I think like over time we've developed better manners in part due to like the environments that we're in, right? We're indoors now, we're not outdoors. You can't be yelling in a library, that kind of stuff. So I imagine that human beings are a little bit more civil, but I would agree with you that like, there's still a lot of treachery and jealousy and betrayal and a lot of these things that still happen. I agree. I'm pretty sure I can...

say with a certain degree of confidence that yes we are more civil now than we were in the past but it's also that idea of you using that scale one to two two to five five to eight and i think maybe like let's say anything under a three or a five whatever scale you're on there is this veil of civility

politeness, etiquette, because that's just how society is run today. I mean, you're not going to go around being a total prick and asshole and get very far, I feel.

But emotionally, when we tick past the five, when all that shit just goes out the window, don't we revert back to our barbarian ways? Like some people get violent. That's obviously still a very normal thing for a lot of people to turn to violence to solve their anger problems. They hit things, they break things, they fight people, you know, and it gets even worse for some people. So we revert back to that animalistic way.

that I'm sure has existed since the time when we existed. - I might not be speaking from complete scientific accuracy, but I would then guess that the parts of your brain that are responsible for you reacting in those ways, they still exist.

'Cause like we never outgrew that kind of stuff. And at the same time, like there are other parts of our more advanced part of our brain, like the cortex or whatever, right? And these things like as Kahneman describes kind of have the system one, metaphorically system one, system two,

And like sometimes your system two doesn't kick in because the system one is like the default mode. Right. So when you get really, really emotional, you activate all these things. It's hard for you to be rational about things. Like if this was not the case, then scientists would be the most rational motherfuckers in the world. But scientists get divorced. Yeah. Right. Scientists get into fights. Scientists gets into nasty arguments. Yeah. So it's almost like we've developed all these more advanced capabilities, but to actually use them, you have to,

You have to be in a state where your system one isn't like taking over, like hijacking your whole system. Yeah. And it brings into question like between, are we just faking, are we just faking like the everyday behavior and the real us comes out when, when we do lose control, like that is the real us by nature. And we are just suppressing that because we need to conform to

to societal norms, to interactions, right? And so that is just us actively suppressing that on a day-to-day basis to be, you know, quote-unquote the normal us. But that's not, that's the fake us in reality. And the real us is the underlying. Well, do you remember- It's just another part of you, that's what I think. It's just like what you were saying, that-

First of all, evolution, in terms of the society that we live in right now and the environment that we live in right now, not enough time has passed evolutionary for us to get into the next stage of evolutionary advancement, right? So, of course, we're still stuck with these almost primordial reactions and instincts because we're not used to it. We haven't had enough time yet. But maybe the most evolved evolution

fathomable version of humankind still has that like that's what i'm saying like that maybe we will never outgrow that because it's not to be outgrown in the first place and i don't know i take it back to like modern day example right like just a thought experiment and you we can see little glimpses of this maybe playing out in different parts of the world in different times in history is when when shit really hits the fan the societal norms and rules that we go by during like

normal times and peace times and when everything's normal, they hold it in place, right? But I've always said, I think society is always hanging on this thread.

And the minute that veil of control or that veil of security goes away, how do we really act then? Like, let's say, like, you know, the movie The Purge or whatever, right? It's just, let's say today there were no rewards for being kind and respectful and driving and following the rules of the road, right? Like,

And you could just literally Wild West, you do whatever you want. There's no rules otherwise to penalize you for that. Would we all still just be acting? Would everyone just be reacting and acting in the same normal way? Or would it be like every man for himself? - No, it'd be chaos. Because like Howie's saying, not enough time has gone by for our circuitry to differ that much from the people 100,000 years ago. The only difference is education.

Right? It's education. It's society. It's like the rules. It's like everything, right? We've talked about this as well. It's like, we know how to do like nothing. I can press a couple of buttons on my phone right now, literally. And I have language, right? I can basically ask for what I need, but I can't produce anything that I need. Yeah. There's a really funny standup comic. I think Nate Bargetzi or something. He did a whole bit about this and he's saying exactly what you're saying, Eric, is like we...

Okay, his whole bit was on the premise of if he could time travel and if he was able to go back in time, he probably couldn't convince anybody that he was from the future because he wouldn't know how to do any of it. He would just seem like a crazy person, but he wouldn't be able to prove any of it because he wouldn't be able to do any of it himself. And it's the same idea of like,

Throw me out into the woods with nothing. How long before I have internet? You know, like it's, we don't know how any of this shit works. We're just consumers. Yeah. We don't know how any of this shit around us that we take for granted works. This wifi in the studio, these microphones that we're talking into right now, like how does it actually work? Can we build one ourselves? Like if we were just left alone in the wilderness? No, we couldn't. In fact, we can't even do the basic stuff.

Like we can't fashion like an arrow, right? We can't start fire. Like we would go back and be like, this person is fucking dumb. We would be even more behind than the people in the past. Yeah. Because at least they have those skills because they have to survive. Totally. We would just be like completely useless to them. Yeah. Yeah. But do they know how to Google search? Do they know how to Google search? Yeah, but how would you prove that concept, right? No, I'm not joking.

Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. We went back in time. We couldn't convince anybody. And he had to continue with his bit. And then the people would ask him, okay, then who's the next president? And he'd be like, uh, you wouldn't even know that, right? So... He's like looking for his phone. He wants to search. That's funny. But emotion...

is also important. This other part of how we respond to things is also important because like emotion actually makes life enjoyable. Like it gives you the reason to do everything you do. - The flavor, right? - Yeah. Like emotion allows you to, like getting mad or getting angry, all these things are useful in the right context.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, it's the spice and flavor to life, right? Without it, what are we doing? We're just surviving. Yeah, I don't know. What are you thinking, Howie? I feel like Howie is tapping into his more advanced parts of his mind right now. No, seriously. I feel like he's been quite articulate recently. He's been working on it. What the fuck?

Thank you. No, we can't do that. I'm actually just being more mindful of the conversation. That's rude. That's rude. Yeah, I'm just being more mindful of the conversation. He's like at another level right now. He's like, oh, you guys are, yeah, no, I've already advanced. I don't have those issues anymore. How we, I feel when we first started off this show, not this episode, but the podcast, Eric was the one clearly with like the most issues to work through. Yeah.

Now I feel Howie is the one with the more issues to work through. Like I'm more concerned about Howie. As I storm away. As you storm away. As I storm away from this dude, I was like, fuck these guys. It's like, oh, you want to play this game? I'm going home. That's like the most childish. I'm taking my ball and leaving the playground. I mean, and literally I live like 10 minutes from here. I came from really far. I came from like 45 minutes away.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Like literally, I came from like Hong Chao and I was like, I came a long fucking way. It was a journey. Like back in the day, it would be like, yeah, I came from like Beijing. Like, can you imagine you came from Beijing to see your friends and then the door was closed because they were like- And then you storm. They were taking a shit. You storm back. And they were taking a shit and then you go back to Beijing and then like two years later, you get a letter in the mail. It's like, hey, where are you? We're expecting you. We made like Hong Shao Rou for you.

But even before that, like going into this whole topic of like emotions, right? And letting the emotions get the best of you. Off air, we were talking about this one time. Eric was saying, he was like, hey, have you guys watched Beef? The show Beef? And I hadn't watched that at that time. And I was like, oh, is it any good? He's like, it's amazing. And Howie was like, eh, I'm not really into it. It's okay. So I watched it. I finished it.

It's fucking amazing. Yeah, yeah. It's such a- He's like, Howie is like fucking Zen master these days. Look at him. Like, I mean, he's literally, he's sitting- Well, he feels no emotion. He's like a suture pose. Like he's literally on, by the way, he's on the ground right now. You know, he's got this like- He's just like complete Tom Paine, right? Yeah, when Franklin, oh, that's what I was gonna say. When Franklin said, basically Buddha figured all this shit out. He was a smart motherfucker. Like he's like studied from the best, right? He figured it all out. Like Howie's been studying him ever since, you know?

So while Justin and I are petty, you know, we're basically petty people and we watch things like Beef. No, Beef was a really, really good show. The acting, the writing, I thought was all superb. Okay, here's an honest take is that when it comes to like all like Asian American kind of cast movies and shows,

I've always been a little biased against them just because like crazy rich Asians, like I just, I couldn't even finish that movie. I did. I really didn't like it. And as with most of these things, as I'm watching it, I'm just very aware. Oh, this is just like playing on this whole Asian American theme and they're doing it for the sake of that.

Beef was the first show where that didn't like even register for me. It wasn't like, oh, this is an Asian American. No, this is just a good show, period. And the whole kind of Asian American gimmick or virtue signaling or whatever it is, it didn't even register because the writing was so good. The acting was so real. And it just seemed like really natural. And it was just a really, really good show. And I loved it all. Yeah. Yeah.

- Yeah, and tell everyone what beef is about. That's a hard one, right? - Yeah, it's a hard one because it's deep, right? It gets pretty deep, but I think on the surface, it's about two people who get into a road rage incident with each other, two strangers, they're both Asian, and that one incident

somehow links them to kind of retaliate against each other for like a long time right and in different ways because well we shouldn't spoil it but like it's not just like retaliate and escalating they're actually quite clever and they're very devious so then they start they're just trying to fuck each other yeah they're trying to fuck each other but they're smart right it's not like they're just like okay i'm gonna go like burn your house down

then they find other ways and they get to know each other's communities of people and then their lives start getting intertwined and that becomes the complexity of it who's the is it Stephen Young how do you say his name Yun Yun the guy from Walking Dead he's so awesome I didn't

Huge fan of his. I didn't know he had those acting chops. He's really good. Because all I knew him from before that was from The Walking Dead. And like he didn't, I don't think he got like, you can't really tell someone's real acting chops from that show, especially his part, his role, his character. Yeah.

This show, I was blown away. Oh yeah. He's legitimately a real good actor. Well, he was in Minari. He was in Minari, which is another movie about like a bunch of like Korean people moving to like some- Yeah, yeah. But I didn't watch that. State. Oh, you didn't watch Minari? No. Is it good? That was pretty good. Yeah. Really? Good film. Yeah. I didn't know- Just the angst that he had, you know? I didn't know he can act like that, man. Yeah, he's amazing. The angst that he had. And it's so real because to me it's relatable, even though I'm not Korean, because I lived in LA and-

and I had a lot of Korean friends and I would spend a lot of time in K-town. I even lived in Koreatown for quite a while.

The way it portrays like how their lives are, like that's real. It's realistic. And the way they interact, the way they, it's so real. Did you find you could relate to it also like being, you know, like a flavor of Asian? Absolutely. Absolutely. Like you saw yourself in it, even though they're like. Absolutely. I saw myself like I could have totally been a character in that show. Yeah. Right? Like absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I've been watching some Korean stuff recently. Like the church guy. Yeah. They casted that so well. Dude, that guy was like, I know pricks like that. Yes. You know? Yes. And they look exactly like that too, you know? Like these little pretty boy Asians. Yeah. Yeah. And so devious, right? So under the surface pretentious.

So manipulative. And internally condescending. Yes. Like you, like I'm better than you. They'll never say that. But the moment they can't handle a reality where you're like achieving more than them. Yeah. And so Asians are very competitive like that. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And, you know, if they're better than you, that's what they want to be better than you. And then they can kind of like, you know, use their superiority to,

And then be kind. But as soon as they get threatened, right? And like in this case, then those, the claws come out. Exactly. I think you put it the best last time when we discussed the show, when you told me you started watching it after Eric's recommendation. Yeah.

This show is not putting Asian stereotypical tropes in the forefront to help tell the story. And like you said, it's just a good story. Yeah, exactly. You just used the way, hold on, you just used the word trope? Damn, dog. Like somebody, wow, trope. What does trope even mean? I don't know why you even point that out. So...

He's so happy on the inside. Not at all. He's like, I threw that out there. Like, it was nothing. I threw that dime out there. Dude, you're making it sound like I'm an airhead. Am I a fucking airhead, you idiot? So...

See, Eric can be so mean. I know, I know. Whatever. No, he... Roll my eyes. And he's like the one thinking like we're the mean guys, like we're the assholes. That's right. Like he's the victim. Meanwhile, the reality, like the actual objective truth is like he's the one who was dogging on us. He's that Catholic dude. No, no. That you're talking about. No. Right? You guys are like... The minute somebody... You guys are gaslighting. You guys are the masters of gaslighting. You know what gaslighting is, right? It's like doing what you're doing now. Oh.

So anyway, because I do have an issue. I feel like I'm similar to how you are when you watch films that are predominantly Asian, especially Asian American. I hate it when they put the Asian stereotypical tropes in the forefront, even if it's not about racism, because that's usually the first trope, which is, oh, you ching ching, chang chang, you know, that kind of stuff. I have no interest in anything like that.

So that's one thing I do appreciate about Beef. And I did not not like it. I liked it. I was hooked on it for a while, and then I got busy for a second, so I stopped watching it. But...

Yeah, that's definitely one thing that stood out to me was the fact that it was just good storytelling. It was a good story. It was not harping on them being Asians in America. Yeah, exactly. That wasn't the impetus of the show. Like, oh, we're going to make an Asian-American show. Did he just say impetus? Oh, wow. So good. So good. So good. So good. So good. Okay, sorry. Go ahead.

No, man. That's what I really like. But that's like, and it took me reflecting back on the show to be like, oh, I didn't even think once that this was like, oh, an quote unquote Asian American show. I was just hooked on the show. And that's when you know it's truly good. I feel like my perception of you guys is rooted in more like 2009 or 2010. And obviously, time is not standing still. You guys study and read. For some reason, I just think when we don't meet, you guys are just fucking like...

you know, not self-improving at all. We're just jerking each other off. But I want to throw something out there. I want to get your take on it. So like I see this like, so I'm trying to think, right? Because there's this reaction that we have like when you are...

part of sub-minority or minority or whatever, right? Like a lot of us are, we're not main, you know, mainstream sort of race maybe in a place, right? So like, okay. So I feel like there's different progression of filmmaking or entertainment. Okay. So like if you take like, you know, Asian or black or Hispanic, whatever it is, right?

Anytime you're not mainstream, the first layer is like actually the racist trope stuff when you're being portrayed as a tool of the mainstream race. And so you saw like some of those Bruce Lee films, whatever, like you have blackface, like just really bad stuff. Right. And so that was like the initial depiction. You're basically getting it's the portrayal of your race and

from the dominant race. And then times evolve and then you get like a more positive version, but it's still...

The dominant race. So like the Cosby show or something or different strokes or something like that. Right. So it's a little bit better because at least you're not just shitting on your race. Right. Yeah. But it's still not good because it's not really you. Like the Asian guy is still the nerdy kid or still the doctor. Yeah. Yeah. Or even like a step up like when you have your own show like Cosby show.

And I don't want to comment on Bill Cosby and the shit that he did, but just in general. You're a hero, Bill Cosby. But it's like the model race. So then you have the model race, but it's still from the point of view, right? And then things like evolve and maybe I'm skipping some steps. And then you have like crazy rich Asians, right? Which is like, okay, that group of people is making their own shit, right?

right? And then they have pull. They've succeeded in the mainstream world, right? Like, so they have enough pull in Hollywood, whatever, but they're still playing in that mainstream world. And then they start portraying themselves, but they're basically just doing their version of the mainstream stuff. Yeah. Well, it's still playing on the Asian stereotype, except the Asian stereotype has changed throughout the years where Asians have a lot of money now. Right. And they're out there spending and they're rich. Yeah. And so it's just playing off of that stereotype instead of

old stereotypes in the in and it's still copying though there's i yes there is that piece where it is somewhat distinctive to the asian race but then it's you're just taking hollywood stuff that would traditionally have been made of rich people and then creating an asian version like my mom was like i mean maybe this was not most politically correct but my mom was like basically it was just like a bunch of asian people trying to be white people you know something like that right

So then you have that. And then you get like, I don't know, fresh off the boat and stuff like that, right? So you get a little bit more real now. It's like, okay, now it's like the challenges, the struggles, right? It's a little bit- Because they're at least acknowledging it. Yes, yes, right? But then you still cast like, you know, a Korean as the Chinese person, the Chinese as the Japanese, you know, it's still not totally accurate. And then I feel like you have beef, right?

which is like, it stands on its own, right? It doesn't matter who was in it, if it's all black people, all Hispanic people, all white people, whatever, that story is just well written. It stands on its own. And it's,

It's really starting to explore the nuances of being that particular race in a way where it's universal so that white people can watch it and be like, oh, I see myself in that. Right. And I think that's like true evolution. Yeah. The plot is not centric to them being Asian. Yes. And that's the biggest difference between those other films. The plot is not centric. Impetus! Yeah.

I don't know why I just jumped on impotence. I have no idea why I did that. I don't know. Impotent? Did you say impotent? Yeah. So that's why, like you said, it can stand on its own. I love what you said. Like, the race isn't central. And so the story stands on its own. And the nuance of the Asian characters, because there is a lot of nuance to the Asian character and depth.

that is not only unique and distinctive to those races because of the hardships of being immigrants, but done in a way that other races can relate to. I think, I hope at least, right? I think if you're white, if you're black, if you're Hispanic, and you could be like, I see that angst in myself. And we've always done that, right? Because we've watched mostly Caucasian actors because like, you know, we grew up in the

And we've grown to love those films and we see ourselves, our identity in that. And I think it's now backwards. It's like now it doesn't matter what color you are. And Asians finally have gotten to the point where it's like, we're not even really seeing the race anymore. And there's enough of us, like enough white or black or Hispanic people have grown up with Asian people that that identity no longer becomes marginalized. It's just like,

mainstream now. You know what I'm saying? It's an interesting concept too when you were talking about like, you know, we grew up with, when we grew up, we grew up with mostly like white actors, right? And we could relate to them. And we could, yeah, like I was like, I'm like relating to like Tom Cruise, you know? So it's like, yeah, it's reversed in a way. I also think, and this could be a controversial take, is that

The acting within the Asian American community has also leveled up in a way where it's like believable. I don't know. I feel like a lot of...

the previous Asian American acting that I would see, I don't know, it just like, it didn't feel believable to me. And this was really the first time watching Beef where I was like, I am totally bought in to their acting, to these characters. Like this is real to me. - I think that's chicken and egg. - Maybe, yeah, maybe, sure. Like it was the first time I was blown away. Not just like, oh, that's good. Like literally blown away.

by Asian Americans acting. And it wasn't just Steven. It wasn't just Ali Wong. The entire cast, they were really good. Ali Wong was so good. I thought David Cho was awesome in that. It just...

It just all worked for me. And I was like, wow. Which character was David Cho? The cousin. Stephen's cousin, the crazy guy. He was so good. The crazy guy that went to prison. He was so good. He was so gangster. He was awesome. I know people like that. Yeah, exactly, right? Just like really bad people. That's what makes us so relatable because we really know people like that. Yeah. And growing up in LA, I definitely knew people like that. Yeah.

And for him, it's even crazier because he's not an actor. He's not coming from an acting background. He's an artist. He paints and draws. And he stepped up and did this. I mean, I don't know. It was just like the acting. Like, yeah, we talk about we're giving all the roses to the writing, which is awesome. But without the acting, the writing would have never helped. I think the key is if you were to change the cast to an all-black cast, all-Hispanic cast, all-white cast, all-Indian cast...

it would still work. The story would still be good. Of course, you have a few nuances of Asian culture, like, you know, sprinkled in there, which is, I guess, interesting.

par for the course for the characters, right? Because they are Asian and living in America. But it's not, like I said before, it's not the main principle of the story. So that's what makes it, for me, also, I'm sure for you guys, the most enjoyable. It's not the main principle, yet it is also deeply embedded, which I think is like that balancing act. It's a fine line. It's like because of the neurosis of...

So I think essentially what they did was they took things that you can visualize and see so clearly in Asian culture, but then do it in a way where it's like every culture has that. I think that's what's brilliant about it. It is distinctively Asian at the same time. It's also universal, right? That neurosis, if you had like an all Jewish caste or all, you know, whatever caste, right? Like you could...

You could see those same elements that's like universally human. And then they, but the way they depicted it was through Asian people. Yeah. That's what made it so believable. Yeah. Oh, it's a great show. We probably shouldn't, we probably shouldn't harp on it too long because like for people that haven't watched it, they'd be like, what the hell are you guys talking about? I mean, what is it even called in Chinese? Like Niu Rou? Beef? Yeah. Is it? Is it called Niu Rou? I don't know. I haven't looked it up. I doubt it'd be called Niu Rou though. Right.

It would be called like jizhou or something. But there are, I mean, that's one good thing that's been happening in the past, I would say five to 10 years. You're seeing a lot more content, whether they're movies, TV shows, music,

exposure in general that have been more Asia-centric. Yeah. And I think that's good because it is normalizing the visual of having an Asian face on screen. And that's step one, right? That is the first step. I mean, that's all you can ask for. You can't just jump right into...

leading man, leading woman, Asian. Because I've also said this in the past, on a past episode, where I felt I was saying something a little bit controversial that might be kind of against my own value system. But when we were discussing, when we were talking about a lot of Asian Americans were very angry about the ratio of leading characters, especially from Asian male leading characters, and

And how little exposure and presence Asian males had in Hollywood. And I said something along the lines of, well, I mean, Asians only take about, what, like 8%, 10%, if even, of the whole population. Like, what do you expect? Are you expecting to have half the films to have an Asian lead male? That doesn't make sense. That's irrational to want that.

But I also think that it's the quality of the stories that are being told that probably is more important as opposed to the number of male leads or whatnot. Well, it starts with the leads first, right? Because once you have the Asian leads...

then the writing can pursue that and be like, okay, well, we need to write around these Asian leads. And it's just funny because when you talk to Chinese people about films in Hollywood, you'll never hear a Chinese person be like, yeah, I wish there was more Asians as a lead male. Really? No. They never say that. It's always like, well, how many Asians are in America? I mean...

It makes sense that, you know, kind of rationally what I just said. They just don't know. They don't understand growing up in America as Asians growing up in America what we had to face and what we had to kind of deal with. Well, I think they also consume it for something different because if they want an all Asian cast, like they've got plenty of that because like

the industry here is vibrant and booming as well. Yeah. I just watch a homegrown film. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think, you know, this point of like having fair expectations and knowing these things will change and improve over time. I think that's fair. And at the same time, I feel like, you know, it's nice to have more ensemble type casts and,

Because like movies shouldn't just be based on the demography of what the US looks like, right? Because if I made a basketball movie, then everyone in the movie would be a basketball player. And like, I mean, what percentage of people are basketball players, right? So I think there's a balance there, right? In some ways, I agree. Like if you look at the overall industry in Hollywood, you can't have every film having like 10 Asian people. There's just not enough of them.

And at the same time, I think you pick your spots too, right? Like you can have a film and I think Hollywood should be open and say, I want to give exposure to this group of people because of the chemistry or the ideas or the themes that can kind of form. And hopefully you see more and more of that. And what you see is that there are certain Asian characters that can then play a more prominent role. So even in the film, maybe there's only one or two Asian people, but then they play that central role, right?

I recently saw like, it was like Morning Show. I think in general, like on... The show Morning Show? Yeah, the Morning Show. The HBO show? Or the actual Morning Show? Morning Show. Like there's a show with Reese Witherspoon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jennifer Aniston. Yeah, yeah. And then like, it was like, it was one stark visual. And I know like there's a lot of minorities on the cast, but it's like...

like you see like the five or six main characters and all Caucasian. And then you see Greta Lee and then you see like this other, you know, black actress and they're like on the sides. Right. And it was just like, Oh, it was kind of a weird visual, you know, it felt like this show was a little bit, but sometimes it is that stark too. Right. We were just like, Oh, all the main historically it's been that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like stark where it's like all the main ones are Caucasian. And then you have like one, like,

I mean, it used to just be like if you were like the minority in a war film, you'd be the first to die, right? Or in a horror film. Yeah, like an Asian person would be the first, but a black person would be the second. Okay, so I have a question. Honestly, I'm not trying to stir any controversy. I'm just really curious what you guys think. Stir the pot. I know we mentioned this maybe in passing and maybe in previous episodes or maybe offline, I'm not sure. But there has been a trend in America where if you watch commercials or even TV shows now in terms of casting,

You need to have every minority represented. You're going to have sexuality represented, different types of sexuality. And if anything, it's getting pumped up even more where you can't have a general show without every representation in it. You see that trend happening. How do you guys feel about that? Do you feel like that every show needs to be that diverse or every commercial needs to have all the different representations represented? No. No.

I think when you force it, it just kind of loses its meaning and comes a little cheesy. No, I don't know. I don't know. I'm not, I was never so big on this whole kind of like having to have everything represented all the time. Is that what you're asking? Yeah, but that's, those are the kind of trends that are out there. Well, I like what Eric said. It was like picking, picking your moments. Do I want every show from now on to be all Asian leading cast? Like, no, I want a diversity.

But I enjoy and I appreciate the fact- How does one pick their moments though? I don't know. Okay. I don't know how one picks their moments. I'm just curious. What I'm saying is I think the progress, the trend is good in terms of before you'd be hard pressed to find any Asian American casted, like predominantly Asian American casted shows. That was step one. Step two was finding an Asian American casted show that was of any good.

And that's, of course, subjective. But in my opinion, there weren't. And then to me, Beef is the first one that really stood out. I'm like, wow, this is a really good show. Can we have more shows like that? I'm all in. I'm all in. But I'm also going to be watching my Denzel Washingtons. I'm also going to be watching my Tom Cruises. I'm also going to be watching all these other shows that are...

you know, different cast. Like to me, that was never, that's, that's, that can't be the way you select shows, right? That can't be the forefront. It just has, is it a good show or not? Just, you know, regardless of who's, what race is in it. I get it. I get it. But when I, I guess I'm trying to dig a little deeper. I'm not talking about the leading roles, even per se. What I'm trying to get at is there is this, a recent article I read on one of the film trend sites. And there was this article about representation and,

And how you see a lot more, let's say, transsexuals, the whole spectrum getting represented. And how that's, you know, it's a very positive force. And a lot of people are behind that. But I saw the comment sections and I saw people being very negative towards that. So for me, without stating a place right now, I'm just curious, just having that conversation, like, is that...

something that you feel necessary because it almost feels like it's it's become necessary for production companies to be to be aware in their casting in their in the script writing right from the script writing process is like where's the transsexual we need a transsexual in there where's the black where's the asian you know you know etc etc that's why um yeah i was i was watching i was watching tv i think the other day and i was you know i was talking to my wife and i was

And I said this to her, I'm like, hey, have you noticed that every single show now has a queer storyline to it? And that was just an observation I was making, right? And I was like, did you notice that? Because growing up, that wasn't the case. It's purposeful. Yeah. So now literally every single show you watch, every single show, there's a queer storyline somewhere. Or at least definitely a character, for sure. Well, pretty much a storyline there. And I was like, wow, times have changed, right? I see that.

I don't know. I don't have any strong feelings about it. But yeah, like if it's forced in there and it doesn't fit the story, like it just seems sometimes it's forced in there for sure. You feel like it's forced? Yeah. Because sometimes it's like some shows I was watching, I can't recall the show. It just came out of left field. It's like, oh, okay. Like we're into this storyline now. And it wasn't just a character. It was like a whole storyline. Yeah.

It was like this whole ongoing storyline. And just, it just didn't, it just didn't feel like natural as part of the original storyline. I was like, oh, okay. If you feel like it's forced, why do you think it would be forced in there? Well, would you feel that? It just feels like, because every show is doing it. So it just feels like, oh, there is like this thing where like, okay, every show needs that. But would you feel that way if you had a different perspective? Because. I would feel that way. Okay. Let's say take queer out of the equation. Yeah.

And if it was just Asian, right? So replace it. So if every show now had to have, like if every show I was watching, there was some sort of Asian storyline going on, right? Some sort of Chinese storyline going on. I'd also feel the same way. I'm like, okay, okay. It just feels a little forest. Like, why are we doing this? I feel the exact same way. Hmm.

Because it just feels like they're doing it for the sake of doing it because they need to include it. Maybe it's just not done well. Maybe, maybe. I'm open to that possibility.

- My thoughts on-- - Maybe the writing is just not as good. - My thoughts on your original question, Howie, it's a complex, like I don't know if I have an answer, right? Like I don't even know if I'm thinking about it in the right way. But the thoughts that I have would be more about not what to have, but maybe the opposite of like what not to have, right? Which is like one,

I feel like we need to remove barriers of entry for anyone who is skilled at acting. So whether you're Asian or black or queer or whatever,

I feel like there's been a lot of barriers in place that kept these people from getting into the industry, from getting represented and from getting casted. And I think number one, we have to remove those things. So it's less about like the outcome and more about the process, right? Like if they're skilled people that want to do this kind of stuff, then they should be given an opportunity because these are people in society, right? Everyone is a part of society.

So I feel like that's one, removing these barriers. And then two is like just encouraging people because like long, if you have systemic sort of barriers long-term, then there might be certain people that just don't have access to these kinds of things. So there should be programs, right? Sometimes there has to be programs for people that are underrepresented and it has to be a balance, right? We don't want to force them into it, but there needs to be some counterbalance to give these people opportunity, right?

Right. I never like thought about acting and all that stuff, but maybe I would be good. Who knows? And then I think the third thing is like, you know, once you cast people based on the merit and the themes of the shows and all that stuff, then that these actual people are accurately portrayed. Right. And they're put in situations where they can succeed when they're not like outliers and stuff like that as well. Right. So that they can best sort of tell the part of the narrative. And then sometimes that narrative needs to be told. Like if you're,

I think it's a good thing that there are groups of people that now are representative because the more they show up, then the more mainstream it is. And then the more normalized. Yeah. And then it's like, and then it's just like, cause it is normal. We made it not normal. Like a hundred years ago, shit was like fucked up. Like if you weren't a certain race class, whatever you were D you were like basically denormalized. Yeah. Right. So it's not even a normalization thing. It's like you are normal to begin with.

And we're basically reversing the denormalization. You know what I'm saying? I mean, I know it's a subtle difference of normalizing versus like reversing denormalization, right? But we shouldn't have had that in the first place. So I have a question. Do you feel like, okay, let's say I was a, forget about me. Let's use an acclaimed director. Let's say Christopher Nolan, who just came out with Oppenheimer, right? I know Justin's favorite director of all time sits above Alfred Hitchcock. So Christopher Nolan comes in with the script.

And he's up to it. He's doing his casting. And he wants to script. It's a regular story. Let's say it's a love story. But he wants the whole cast to be white. And you have the studios coming in and be like, no, you can't have it all white. You got to throw in some black in there. You got to throw in some gays and all like the whole spectrum of people.

we need it to be more full and real. But Nolan comes in and says, but this is my vision. I envisioned this a certain way because it's set in a, you know, in a small town where it is predominantly a white town and, and it makes sense for the story. But, you know,

you have studios coming in being like, no, it has to be a certain way. Do you feel like those kinds of movies should be controlled or the, in terms of, well, you should give more opportunities for people and, and whatnot. Like I would say that fine line, my, my, my gut reaction would be number one. I would look at his portfolio of movies, right? Like it's like every movie he has is like super narrow. I would like be like, Hey, we're trying to sell more tickets. I think there's a commercial aspect of it as well. Right. I,

Ah, commercial. Well, commercial and audience in the sense that like, look at the demographics of the US. Like how we shoot movies should not just be based upon what people empower and have money want to do with the movies. They should relate to the audience, right? I would also look at all the other movies. If this person clearly shows sort of like bias or whatever, you know, then I don't know if you're Hollywood and funding these projects, you know, if they should get

priority and stuff like that. There was a, there's a guy named, what's his name? Jan, Jan Wenner or Jan Wenner. I think he's founded Rolling Stones and all this stuff, right? Media empire. And like, he wrote a book about like these, these legends and rock and roll, right? And it's all white. And he was interviewed by it.

And he was like, well, why are they all white and all men? And he was like, no, that's just my muse. That's my, you know, I don't think that Janis Joplin had this depth and all that stuff. And he was really skating this fine line, right? He was skating this fine line. I know he's probably not, I don't think he has a reputation of like having that kind of bias, but at the same time, how much of his bias is working into his personality

portrayal and his vision of things too. So I think it's a very complicated thing, but it shouldn't just be about race. Like if it's just about the superficial aspect of race, no one benefits from that. Or sexuality. Or sexuality, right? Because no one benefits from that because it's like, then you're just forcing an equation on people, right? You have to look at the real meaning and depth that this person want to depict their

whatever he's doing in a real way or is there actually bias in his thinking? Because there are certain stories that are just universal, right? You can have a love story that's not set in any town or whatever, then you can have in any cast. Like,

- Yeah. - Technically. - Yeah. - Right, technically you can have anybody cast. - It all starts with the writing. - Right. - Like it all starts with the writing. - Well, and they do that all the time. Like Shakespeare, like you can have an all black cast and it could be fine. Like Hamilton, I don't know, I mean. - Like what's the story you wanna tell? - Yeah, like why? - It all starts from there, right? It doesn't start from let's decide who are the actors and then we'll write the story around that. It starts with what's the story you wanna tell? And then we'll flesh out everything based on that story, right? What makes sense for that story?

But does that, and does anyone need to be a certain race? In other words, even if that original character was Caucasian, does the actual actor have to be Caucasian? Why? Wasn't that like- Little Mermaid? Yeah, Little Mermaid. I was going to say in the States, right? The Little Mermaid was like a big controversial thing, everyone, because they casted the Little Mermaid with an African-American-

girl, right? Yeah. She was really pretty, by the way. I don't even know how old she is. Maybe I shouldn't have said that. She's probably like 10. Okay, dude. No, but like

But I don't know. That was like a whole snap. This is a family rated show, Justin. But it was a whole like controversy, right? People were supposedly, I don't know. So that goes again with this whole like outrage culture thing. Like when people, when you read headlines like, oh, are you here on social media? Oh, people were outraged about like how many people actually are outraged about that? I don't know. Is it like a lot of people? Do a lot of people really give a shit?

Or does it just make for a good headline, right? Just a good talking point. But apparently, there were a lot of people outraged or criticizing the move of casting a black girl for the role of the Little Mermaid, in which the original Disney picture of the Little Mermaid was a white girl with red hair, right?

I think that's silly. That kind of shit. That's silly. Yeah, I don't care. That's silly. Well, and this is not absolute, but let me draw a comparison, right? So, like, this Disney character was, like, human-made, right? So, like, I don't think it really matters. But, like, if it was, like... The original was an animation. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. But if it was, like, freaking Genghis Khan or,

or like Ching Shih Huang, and then they put like, they put some, like a, Denzel Washington. No, they put like a female Hispanic actress, right? And then I would be like, well, I don't know, like why? Like you don't really. Well, because then that affects the actual story, right? Yeah, exactly. Because the Little Mermaid is a story that has nothing to do with race. Like it can literally be anybody, right? Yeah.

And so it doesn't matter. But yeah, like exactly what you said, the context matters, right? The context of the story absolutely matters. And that's why I keep talking about the writing, the story, because I think that is king or queen, however you want to put it. Like that decides everything else. But when context doesn't matter,

When it's a general story. Then it doesn't matter. Then I don't care. Then I don't care. And the other thing is that the directors sometimes get to choose the context, and that is power as well, right? So then you have, over time, people choosing contexts that put certain races into the position of power or prominence, and I think that can be an issue as well. But like from an objective point of view, isn't that also like...

censorship if we were to dictate what you put in isn't that also like that's that's a form of censorship isn't it i'm not advocating for or against i'm just saying isn't it though

It is. It is. No, it's censorship if the government does it. If it's like the studio that does it, that's not censorship. Well, the term censorship doesn't have to only apply to governments. No, but censorship meaning that there's like another authority that's controlling. Then the studio would be that authority because the studio is authority on all these major motion pictures. Yeah, I don't know if the studio can censor against itself, but. Well, they're censoring against the writing, right? Against the director's vision. Yeah.

I mean, that's a fine line, right? How much of this is like negotiating? Because the studio has the money to do it, right? I mean, I'm the producer. I got the money. You're the director. I could find another director. Yeah, I think a lot of it also comes down to, it's not just about the context of the story, the filmmaker, right? Or even like the head of the studios. I remember when I went back and did casting for the short film I did in New York back in like 2016. I mean, I wrote, I wanted the Asian actor.

The story has nothing to do with anything Asian at all. Zero, right? Zero. But I wanted an Asian cast. Why? Just because you wanted that represented in there because you're Asian? Yeah, because I like to see someone that I can... Identify with? Identify with, exactly. And I want to continue creating more spaces for Asians to be

scene right and i remember i did the casting and a lot of replies i got from other asians would be like wow so refreshing finally looking for asian lead even though it's like a no-name director doing a no-name short film but i was paying people i it was a paid gig that's what they were saying like it's a paid gig i also got headshots from people that are not asian and they're like just in case i know you're not looking for but just in case here i am african-american white i got i got a bunch

I was just thinking because I've made that decision. I made a clear, distinct decision to cast in this way with a story that had no contextual reason for me to cast Asian.

but that's what I wanted. So why not? So I'm just using that as an example and just making it a little bit bigger in all spectrums. If I was a white person, I just want to make a white film. Why? Well, I think here's the distinction and it's not a clear one, right? But the distinction for all of these things is that it's the power structure. If you're in a situation where you control all the power and then you limit it by race or by sex or whatever, that's the problem. That,

It's like sexual harassment, right? It's sexual harassment if like you are the boss of the person that you're harassing. When there is a power relationship and so that the, like, I mean, that's a bad, you know, I probably take that back because I had a bad metaphor, but, or bad analogy, but essentially there's a power element to it. And that's the key thing. Like if you're like a,

You're a Burmese person and you want a Burmese actor, right? Fine, right? Because you're not causing like problems because you don't control the whole film industry. You know, if you're like controlling the power and you're saying, no, I want a white person, which happened for...

a long, long, long period of time, then you're creating barriers for other people. And I think that's the difference. - Like your Columbia pictures or whatever, like a large film studio. - Yeah. - And yeah, I get that. - I mean, that's what racism essentially is, is like you have to have power in a certain way, or that's a key element. And then you do things that exclude other people.

Because if you have no power and you're the minority, you can't exclude people because you're the, by definition, the exception. You are the excluded. You are the excluded. Exactly. Yeah. Totally. Right. So I think these are things that are all nuanced, but like, I think we can, you can always find a way to think about them, but you have to really think deeply about them. You can't look at the surface. Yeah. I don't know. It's just, these are things that I don't really usually even think about. Like, I don't know. I don't even know if it's,

worth thinking about from that perspective. I think, look, I think art imitates life, right? The old saying. And as societies evolve, as cultures evolve, the art, which is, and entertainment is the form of art, is going to reflect that naturally in due course, right? Now, you can do certain things to try to speed that up or slow that down,

But it's going to happen either way, I feel, because that's just how it works. The stories we tell, the people that are there to tell those stories are going to naturally evolve with the society they're in. So now, as there are more Asian Americans who have grown up in the States, there are going to be more Asian American writers. There are going to be more Asian American directors. There are going to be more Asian American producers, writers.

people in power and that's gonna reflect and the art around that is gonna reflect that fact so I don't know I just think it's a natural course of things

I don't... That's why I was never really into forcing this or forcing that. I think it's going to happen anyway. But it's not completely only natural. I think there's two sides to it. I think that, like, whenever, like, these things shift, then the regime that's in place, sometimes, like... They're going to hold on to that. They'll hold on to it. Yeah, but they're going to try. They're always going to try. Yeah. But it's just a matter of time. Well, yeah. And it's that time sometimes because it's like... I mean...

If you look at people of color,

when were they able to like go to restaurants like everyone else? When were they able to ride in the front of the bus? And so, yeah, it was a matter of time if you're hopeful like that. But then what about all that time that was lost and all those people? Cause it's like multi-generational, right? So it's like, it won't even happen in your fucking lifetime. Unless you fight for it, right? Yeah, unless you fight. I mean like, you know, and if you go even further back, then we all know about like even worse stuff, right? It wasn't even about, can you go to the restaurant? It was like, you were the restaurant, you know? Like,

Okay. I don't know. Do we have our mojo back or are we kind of still searching for it? No, I like it. Cheers one more time. It's good to sit back down with you guys in our new space. Yeah. It's been taking longer than expected. I mean, we're like always- We really had to fight for this. Yeah. This didn't come naturally. We're always like just a small thread away from breaking up, you know, like the Beatles or something. I mean, that's what makes us so great though. Thanks.

Yeah, you're not going to pour some of my makeup. But I am like reading and learning about things where like we can talk about this in a future show where a lot of the behaviors that we have that are unwanted are

stem from our emotions and our ability or inability to manage short-term and long-term and regulate our emotions. And then this leads to poor decisions or other things. So I'm trying to figure out better ways to manage that. Keep that shit out. For the sake of all humanity, let's hope you get that under control. Howie seems to figure it out. He's all good. And one thing that I was...

I think that you weren't here. I was talking with Justin. I definitely did not do it in this show. But one thing I do want to get back into is how I usually am or how I used to be. And I don't know how you remember me as, Eric, but I've always been told I'm like a jokester. Yeah, goofy. I'm very goofy, right? And I'm just always making jokes and being stupid, right?

I kind of want to get that side of me back. It's a lot more fun. Yeah, I don't know where that side of you went for a long time now. It's been a while. You seem like a shell of yourself. Yeah. So anyway. That's a conversation for another time. It's something that is on my radar. I put it on my priority list to figure out why that has left me and how do I get back. You've gotten too smart for your own good. I think you just need to dumb things down a little bit. He sounds like ChachiPT.

He does. He's on. We need some more Jim Carrey. All right. That's it for today, folks. I'm Justin. I'm Howard. And I'm Peaceful Eric. Be good. Be well. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace.