Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
What's up, everyone? Hope you all had a great 10-1 holiday for those that work in China. And if you don't, I hope the last couple of weeks have been treating you well. Today's episode, there's no guest. It's Howie, Eric, and I, and we have a discussion about motivation. But not your usual feel-good motivation therapy kind of talk.
We discuss more about intrinsic and biological motivation. In other words, we debate what is the stronger natural motivator. Is it pleasure or fear? Is it reward or punishment? From its roots in our early evolution to now in everyday life, how does this wide spectrum of motivation, both negative and positive, play a role in shaping our behaviors? Most of it probably subconscious.
At the end of the day, all action might be traced back to some primal source of seeking of pleasure or avoidance of pain or consequence, which is what we mean by fear. And of course, pleasure and pain take many different forms, both psychological to physical or emotional.
And that's what we talk about today. So agree or disagree. Hope you enjoy the conversation between the three of us. We're back. Welcome to The Honest Drink. Boom. I just don't like it.
Oh shit, yes penalty you missed the last episode and we did talk about a penalty system because you talk about on camera No
Then it doesn't count. We didn't talk about the penalty system on camera. We talked about our dismay with you missing the last episode. Yeah, but that's off camera. It doesn't count. No, no. We talked about that on camera. Actually, off camera is... We talked about that on camera. Did you really? We talked about you quite a bit. Did you really? I look forward to seeing that release so I can see what the hell you guys talk about. It's okay. We'll make you drink first. Yeah, so he does... So we're going to hit this up again because we didn't really dive too deep into it last episode. We didn't really drink that much. And I thought this was a great whiskey.
So I had a lot of pleasure. You brought this from Italy from your last trip? Actually, I got it in Barcelona, but close enough. Howie did ask quite a few questions knowing that he would be drinking, so I think he knows what's going to happen.
Okay, so obviously we're not going to do a full glass. I was thinking full glass because it was quite a severe crime to miss an episode. I think it's quite severe. But just a little shot. And for kind of a minor reason, too. Yeah, the real penalty for him is not the drinking. It's the red face. Yeah. Because his vanity is his biggest weakness. And bring it on. And I think the other kind of...
layer we can add in is that like the penalty doesn't deserve like the good whiskey like we'll get all this whiskey we get like like fucking I love how you already said we should give him because you know it's going to be me most of the time clearly it could be me I'm a guy as well it's gender neutral
But, you know, we could have like Jaeger, whatever, right? It could be anything. Okay, I'll get some. And we'll modulate them out. Like we're not going to give him a full glass. Him, I mean. Well, it depends on the severity of the crime. That's right. Right? So, but, you know, what do you guys think? What do you think is more motivating for you guys? Like having a penalty system where it's like a punishment or a reward incentive system?
You know, what would be what would have a stronger motivation for you? I think coming up from an Asian household, it would be more punishment as opposed to reward. Right. Yeah. It goes back to the age old question. Like, what is more what is a more powerful motivator? Pleasure or fear? And I tend to think fear. I think it goes back to, you know, I'm reading the one listening to the book.
The Laws of Human Nature. You're getting into Robert Greene? Yeah. Oh, great. That's the latest one. Yeah, so I'm a little bit into that book right now. It just started last week. And in it, they talk about kind of like the roots of how we developed emotion and particularly fear in the first place. Right? And it all goes back to like the earliest simple organisms, right?
It wasn't fear because emotion was never, hasn't, wasn't created in early life form, right? But it was just a simple survival tool. Like if you sense danger, you move away. It's just a simple reaction, right? And it wasn't until later, until organisms become, became more complex and became into animals and developed cognitive functions that that survival system prolonged and expanded into emotion. And that emotion was primarily fear.
Fear was the main driver because fear kept you safe. It kept you from getting eaten alive, right? It kept you from, you know, the weather or other natural phenomenon that would have killed you. So I think fear is much more innate in our biology than pleasure, right? It's the argument. Why do you say pleasure rather than reward or incentive? Those are two different things. No, it's the same thing. Because ultimately, that's a pleasure. Because by getting a reward...
What's the feeling of getting a reward? Pleasure. If, you know, in early humans, the reward was food, right? Shelter. That provided comfort, right? So comfort ultimately equals, boils down to pleasure. So you don't mean like hedonistic pleasure. You mean a positive feeling is what you're saying. Yeah, you don't have to look at pleasure in such like a narrow, you know, frame of mind, right? It's quite narrow-minded.
No, no, but like just to just to see like, you know, but just to think of pleasure as like everyone like orgies and like drinking wine and like, you know, eating grapes and it's like fucking all day. I mean, that's not that's not like pleasure is a very fundamental and wide encompasses a lot of things, you know, most most like the simplest thing like eating. That's a pleasure. That's a reward system, you know.
Having warmth in front of a fire, shelter from the elements, that's pleasure. So like I said before, I think a generalization of what I just said as being Asian, we come up from probably more of a fear system as opposed to growing up in America. I mean, I'm assuming that maybe some of your friends that are non-Asian tend to have more of a reward system maybe.
that's a generalization that I can say when I grew up that I witnessed. Well, that's more new school, right? Like you said, a lot of white families don't believe in punishment. They believe in reward system. A generalization. But that is a new thing. It's a new school. We shouldn't necessarily categorize this as an ethnic thing because traditional –
Midwest. Yeah, maybe they were not. You know, it's like, you know, like, I mean, there's like spare the rods, whatever, you know, don't spare the rod, whatever it is, right? I mean, it was pretty brutal, I think. It was, but I think it's pretty safe to say that Asian households, even back then in general, were a little more disciplinarian. I mean, obviously you have your outliers, you know, and all across ethnic groups. But I think in general, if you were to stereotype Asian
It's a pretty safe stereotype, I believe, that Asian parents were just a lot more disciplinary. Well, my household obviously was an outlier, as you know. However, it really depends on the times. When I talk to my friends here who were raised in China, they find it surprising that I went through that. So they aren't able to connect with that type of upbringing. And so...
There is some ethnic element to it, but it's also very much the period of time, I believe. And I don't know about this whole punishment system because, as you guys all know, it didn't really work on me. Actually, it caused severe damage. Well, that's because maybe your parents went too far with the punishment system. You know, I think it's still a delicate line, a balancing act, right? Mm-hmm.
In terms of having a balance of reward and punishment, just so it's not all one-sided and that there is a flip side to it. So maybe your parents, from what you tell me, your parents may have went just too far with it. Is the flip side to reward punishment necessarily? Well, if you're just taking, if you look at it as a spectrum and just take the two polar ends, yeah.
I guess so. I mean, what else would it be? Is there something in the middle? There's definitely something. That's actually the spectrum, right? There's definitely degrees in the middle. But I'm just talking about the two polar ends, just for the sake of argument, right? Just like the two most extremes, right, would be, I guess, you know, the reward and punishment system.
Obviously, there's degrees of... I'm wondering if there's other ways where it mixes or there's maybe not that notion of punishment and you're looking at more some type of accountability or some type of practical iterative approach where...
not necessarily punishment, but maybe like the feedback loop is built into the experience rather than it being such an external. Well, let's talk about that because if there's a feedback loop, what are you feeding back? Ultimately, you're going to be feeding back some sort of reward or some sort of punishment. Otherwise, just to keep the discipline. You can make it where, for example, a certain situation where let's say it's grades. We're talking about growing up, right? Grades.
You get straight A's or straight B's or whatever, you get a reward, right? You don't get that, you get punished, for example, that punishment system and reward system, right? But what if you don't set it up like that? You set it up where it's somehow, I mean, I don't have the answer, but somehow where it's like the normal, right? So like straight A's is normal, like straight B's is normal or whatever is normal. There is no reward. There is no punishment. It's just, that's normal. Like you're not punished.
being normal or you're not working. So, okay, let's say the habit of working hard, the doing your homework. I mean, that's all normal. So let's say B would, let's take a argument. Let's say B is the normal. So there's no reward or punishment if you get a B. That's expected. Okay. So what happens if you get an A plus or what happens if you get a D? It's like, okay, well then it'd be like, well, look, you did a great job. You put in the extra effort, which equaled that high
higher grade. And that higher grade is going to bring you whatever in the future. It's not about now the immediate. I think it's not about now the immediate pleasure. It's more about building this mentality that what I'm doing as a child, what the child is doing is
a standard, right? It's normal. It's not like, oh, you're doing extra, you're doing above and beyond, so you're going to get rewarded. It's more like work. So in work, we might not use the notion of punishment, generally speaking. So you go through your work, you do a great job, maybe you get some recognition for that. You don't do a good job, then you're
you know, you get it. There's a conversation like, how can I support you? But it's positive. So perhaps because there's a connotation of reward punishments, like positive, negative, but what if it's both positive? What if it's just that if you do a great job, it's like, what else can you do? How can you help other people? What can you continue to do? And then if you don't do a good job,
It's a little bit more about understanding in the context. You got to catch up. But it's like, why did you have a difficult time doing this? Look, I honestly, personally, I agree with you guys. I understand it completely. But what we're saying, what you guys are saying is just it's still a form of reward and punishment, just different degrees. It's not severe reward. It's not like outright like, oh, here's a car or I'm going to punch you in the face as a punishment.
So like if the feedback system is, let's say going back to grades or going to work, if the person does well, employee does well on a certain project, just the mere fact that your superiors come down and say, like, that was a great job, do more of this, that is a form of reward. That is a form of reward.
a pleasure feedback, is that encouragement, is that positive recognition, that is a pleasure, right? And the opposite of that, even if it's a constructive criticism and they're very kind of more laid back about, okay, you did a terrible job, but we still believe in you, you can do this and that. Well, even though they're presenting it in a positive way,
that's to the employee who did a bad job, that's still a sense of punishment because that's not a conversation, that's not a position you wanted to be in in the first place. So you're going to feel a little sense of maybe shame or...
or, you know, or disappointment or whatever it is, even it could be very slight. But again, we're talking about a spectrum. So not everything needs to be on the extreme levels, but everything will skew one way or another. So positive reinforcement, that's pleasure. That plays on the pleasure principle. So the employer or the student, they want to feel that way again. So it motivates them to get better grades or to do better at work. They want that positive reinforcement.
Now, having a stern talk with you about your performance that's maybe lacking, right? Even though it might be an understanding talk, that skews on the spectrum of, you know, trending towards a punishment where you don't want to be in that position again. Because you know that too many of those talks in a row will ultimately get you fired, right? So, it's still reward and punishment. One of the books I read last year that was...
popular and it was translated in many languages was called The Courage to be Disliked. It was written in Japan. And the premise of that book is that a lot of times part of the problem is that we seek to please people.
So we go through our whole lives and we're always trying to please others and our behaviors are motivated by how we want others to perceive us and part of the premise of the book and it goes back to some of the earlier psychology from Adler, which is that you should do things for yourself and that the person that, you know, the parent or the boss or whatever it is that's responsible for
for working with you, it's not really a parent-child relationship or a boss-employee relationship where everything is driven by this external motivation. You want to get to the point where 90% of it is driven by internal motivation, and then the person is framing things in a little bit different way. Then you would frame it. It wouldn't be reward and punishment. It would be more about, you know, support if necessary, and, you know, or some type of support. And so I
I work in an environment where it's really not framed. Like, I grew up in an environment where it's framed in terms of reward and punishment. It was extremely ineffective and it was very harmful and, you know, it was difficult. And then I work for a few places and I've been in an environment where it's much more of this different framework. And I feel it's much more effective. So I think
um there is that framework of reward and punishment and then of course incentives drive people but the notion of like you needing to please someone and that being the motivating force to create behavioral change is something that that i um think there are alternatives to that i think there are absolutely alternatives to that but i think most people are kind of wired that way right that you know whether we whether i think we notice it or not there's always a form of
pleasure or fear or punishment or reward at play. Even if it's unnoticeable. Even just going through our daily lives. Even by ourselves without any external... So do you think we can unwire ourselves? Because part of the hypothesis from...
Robert Greene or if you think about all of, I mean, this line of research is quite common, right? He's just the next person to write about it. But it's, you know, in the last 20 or 30 years, a lot of people have done this research where how do we sort of unwire ourselves a little bit? You know, like Daniel Kahneman with the two systems that are working in your head. Do you think we can unwire ourselves? Or what is the premise of laws of nature? We can unwire ourselves or we exploit that particular circuitry
inside of us to make it work for us better. I think the second, I think it's understanding that that circuitry is not something we just came up with now. That is why hardwired into our very evolution in biology. I don't think there's a way to completely unwire, but I think that what we can do is understand that there is such a system at play.
and to help manipulate that to motivate yourself the best and most healthiest way you can, right? So I think no matter what we do, there's always some sort of, it all goes back to the roots of motivation, right? So to me, the very core of any motivation, no matter how big or small, is either something you fear, you want to avoid or not do, so you motivate yourself to do something about it, or it's something you want to attain or achieve,
Right. So you motivate yourself to achieve it. So by achieving it, that's the pleasure principle, because if something you want to achieve, it's going to be something that ultimately it might make you better. Like, let's say I want to lose weight. I want to be healthier. I want to do better at my work. Well, what does that ultimately end up to? It makes you happier. Right.
Right. It'll make you better. It'll make you happier. And what does that ultimately boil down to after that? Well, that's that's the pleasure principle at work, because if being healthier didn't make you happier, if losing weight didn't make you happier, if being better at your job didn't make you happier, wasn't sort of a pleasure, you wouldn't really be looking to achieve it. Yeah, I think also it's not just about one way.
I think it's also about, it's just like language, right? It's learning to speak the language of the person. So for example, maybe motivation. I know, I know, and I'm turning red in your line. I'm not laughing about that. So now we are. I'm laughing at the fact that he's trying to appear intellectual. Clearly, Justin and I are more well-read and knowledgeable. And now he's trying to... He's like jumping in from the side. The whole time we're talking, he's just saying like, okay, well, what's the best thing? He's trying to triangulate because he knows that if he contradicts us, then we can come back at it.
him with some other stuff and then he's like but if he agrees then maybe he's trying to please us so he's trying to figure out his angle a little bit oh I love Gilby and he's giving even if he hadn't drank any he would have been red anyways just based on his self consciousness at this point we're just giving you shit so can I say my point now so basically you have to understand the motivation of the person
Right. So some people are motivated for, for example, financial. I'm talking from a work environment, for example. So maybe some people are motivated by financial. Some people are motivated by, let's say, emotional. Right. Let's say your own personal goal or endeavors. Some people are maybe, you know, motivated by society, how your work environment is viewing you. Right. So depending on what type of person you are, that's what's going to motivate you. Right. So just like
For example, me, it's not really as much about financial, for example, right? So if someone's going to throw a lot of money at me and be like, dude, if you do this, you're going to get all this money. As opposed to, you know, the boss comes in and is like, yo...
You're going to get this really, this amazing project that I know you really want if you can do this right. That's going to motivate me, not that money, right? So it still depends on the person, right? So it's still based on reward, right? But it's about the right language to speak with the person to... Exactly. Everyone's pleasure principle and fears are going to be different. People are going to fear different things. People are going to find pleasure in different things. So it's about finding what...
Strikes you plays on your fear and reward and pleasure principle more, right? So you're not as motivated Let's say by money because that doesn't ultimately make you as happy as let's say you achieving a certain status in your career or Accomplishing certain things right so that plays more on that on your pleasure principle. So we're having to we're having the same conversation We're just talking about two different things
Right now you're talking about like real world practical kind of examples. All I'm saying is I agree. I'm saying is all the underlying circuitry hardwired into our biology, into our evolution is the fact that there is a pleasure and fear system. There's a spectrum there and all our motivation, I think is,
is tied into that somehow. Now, everyone's fears and pleasure principle are going to be different, right? But it's still the, you know, pleasure and fear. You know what I'm saying? It's all hardwired into us. There's no avoiding it. It's just manipulating it to work for you or to work for others. It's a great idea. And I had, you know, some of those same thoughts because clearly there is some type of circuitry or a core operating system or whatever it is that
your human behaviors. Clearly, I mean, all the research shows that, but there are different nuances, right? I mean, none of us are experts on that, but let's say that there's some clear...
And that's why you see people are able to create groups and then form beliefs and all that stuff. Right. But what that circuitry is and then how much we can influence the circuitry. Because if you look at like, let's say hardware, like a device, there is software that runs on it. There's apps that runs on it. Right. So I think the premise is that we do have hard wiring and we do have circuitry and we have to kind of figure out what that biological circuitry is. And there is that basic element of fight or flight.
you know, like for humans, right? We all sort of have the very origin. Yeah. That's very origin. So there's like this core basic operating system, but then we end up building layers on top of that culture, culture, like upbringing, nurture, it's like nature versus nurture. Then you get these, you know, these concentric circles. Then you, it's like, it is important. I totally agree. We need to understand a little bit more about the biological basis behind the circuitry. But then as we build on top of that, it's,
you know, then there's things beyond that. Like there's like, like we had a conversation in one of our previous podcasts about happiness and, and,
Does that drive us? Right. And or meaning, does that drive us or responsibility? So there's a lot of things. It may all boil down to that, you know, that fundamental circuitry. But there's so many layers on top. And then that's where the conversation gets a little bit complicated. It's a little bit more nuanced. Right. Isn't it? We're not animals like there are other layers of our operating system that have been built based on just culture. So essentially what you have is you have the ancient biological system.
circuitry, which is like your core operating system that can't change. It's like the hardware. But on top of that, you have layers of software, which is your culture. It's growing up as Asian American, whatever it is in a certain period of time, it's all part of the culture. And then on top of that, you have your apps. And I think where you have flexibility in terms of designing things and changing things is kind of the app. Some of the basic circuitry is going to be the same, right? When I run, I feel more motivated. I feel more meaning.
That's based on my biological circuitry. So probably the premise there is once you understand the circuitry, then you can design apps that tap into it a little bit better. But I think it's a very good point that you bring up about the circuitry itself cannot be changed, but you can change what's on top of the circuitry. Yeah. You put it in a very way, the base and ancient circuitry, but...
Through the complexities of being human and living in the world and culture and interactions with other people, it becomes very complex and very dynamic. Yeah. And then if you think about...
Like all the successful people throughout time, maybe through trial and error or maybe through tradition, have figured out ways to tap into the circuitry. And it's only in the last, I don't know, 50 years where scientists have been able to then do the research to validate that. So in essence, like all the successful people, the Egyptians, the Chinese, the Europeans, right?
you know, could be trial and error or it could be like that family culture where they figure it out. Like these are the things that make you happy. These are the things that make you successful. And then we're lucky that in the last 50 years, scientists have been able to go into the brain and do all this testing, you know, and then people like Robert Green can then tap into that research and then create versions of that, that disseminate that, that common and into common knowledge essentially. Right. So it's quite interesting.
So if you guys, let's say you have, you run your own company and you have your own employees, what kind of culture in terms of, in regards specifically to motivation, right? Would you try to instill in your own company and your own people? All right, Mr. Businessman.
Me? Mr. Businessman. Well, that's why you couldn't make the last podcast. Yeah. Well, you know, let's just give our thoughts. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be crazy or profound, but it's just like, because if you run a company and you have employees, no matter how big of a or small of a company you are, you're going to have to motivate your people. Well, okay. So the best way I can personally relate to that is less on the business side, but more on, let's say, a film set. Right? Because...
when shooting something you have i mean as a director you have to sort of oversee a lot of different uh heads of departments right and working together to you know create the end goal and one of the things is i mean i guess it's a school of thought uh is to create this standard right this uh overall ambience on set that you know as you lead everybody
everyone can have their own space to explore their own expertise, but at the same time have a concrete vision to be able to lead, right? So it's having that balance, but also everyone's different. So working with different, for example, heads of departments, cinematographer, professional designers, they all have very different personalities. And so for me, it's more about, you know, judging what kind of person they are. Are they more about like
Some of them are like, okay, so what's your vision? Let me see what I can do to make it happen. Other people are like, just tell me what to do and I will...
I will just do it, right? And then to the best of my ability. So it's about like finding that balance of what do they really want? Are they here because they feel like they want to contribute or are they here because they're just, it's a job and they just want to do their job right, you know? So I think that should be able to relate to a work environment as well. So if you're running a company, it's about, okay, so the people that are working with you
what are their motivations? Like what's going to really make them tick and what's going to really give them that drive to perform. Right. So it's like finding that balance and then putting that effort to, you know, try to dig in and find, find out what, what motivates them. I agree. And I, but I, that's speaking more ideally, right. I think in terms of,
Because no one is going to have 100% success rate when it comes to hiring. You're going to do your best you can to find the best and most self-motivated people that fit your company's needs the best you can. Everyone's going to try their best.
No one's going to be perfect at it. And you're going to get employees that are going to need more motivating than others. Or you're just going to get downright bad ones, right? You're going to fuck up and you might hire someone who you thought was really good but turned out to be really bad or, you know, just not really underperforming, right? And that's going to happen more than once, right? So is it, do you think it's almost impossible to escape some sort of
punishment system. I mean, I think the reward system is understood. There needs to be positive incentives, positive reinforcement in any culture. I think that's understood. I think we all agree on that. But where I see a lot of companies going now, especially like kind of like the new school, younger culture, young generation companies and culture is that they're kind of almost trying to get rid of
any sort of punishment system at all and trying to be just all positive and all uplifting and just, you know, everything is great. Just if you do a bad job, we're going to pick you up and do it. But do you think that's just being too idealistic or do you or is there an inescapable form of punishment for people who do underperform?
Who do fall behind or people who are very good in the beginning? But through the years when we got more and more complacent and their performance are started slip So what do you do about that? Right? Because you can't just go you don't want to just go and just at the very sight of any kind of under performance You just go left and right firing people. You know, that's just good. That's that's not an ideal situation for you or them Yeah, I feel like um
I feel like recently I've been reading a lot about the ancient Romans and Greeks and I feel like Justin's really into this punishment system. It's like underperformers, you know, it's death.
No, no. See, you're exaggerating. I'm not really into the punishment system because, you know, running a company, I've been there before. And so I've always I struggled with the towing the line or walking that tightrope in terms of delicately trying to build a culture where.
It was an environment where people look forward to going to and felt positive about. But meanwhile, there were consequences if you didn't perform well, you know, multiple times in a row. You know, I mean, I'm always I consider myself too lenient. Right. Because growing up, going back to what you were talking about before, you know, my parents always told me I was I always worked too hard to try to please other people.
That's one really big criticism they've always had of me, that I was always trying to please other people. And so through the years, I had to really kind of watch myself and try to balance myself in terms of not always thinking about the other person first and trying to please other people and to think about myself a little bit more. And I think I've done that. So trying to build a culture in terms of motivating people properly,
I only bring this up because that is something I struggled with myself when I was running the company. You have great employees, you have okay employees, and then you have some employees that just are underperforming. But before you go ahead and just fire them willy-nilly, you give them a chance. I almost gave people second chances. But what happens when they keep underperforming? Or you see them, before they start, you see them falling towards that direction. There has to be some sort of
motivation other than just positive and reinforcement where they know there are real consequences. Totally agree. I think that the positive reinforcement is what doesn't that is not what sustains the culture. What sustains the culture is the feeling of peak performance and achievement as a group. So
The team growing, achieving things, setting goals, making progress, all of that is what drives that positive feeling. It's not the superficial, like, oh, you did a great job, the pat on the back, that type of interaction. It's the actual work and it's the impact and it's the results that you're driving, the performance that you create that drives the positive feeling. Now, inevitably, in certain environments, you're going to have people that are underperforming for a variety of different reasons because it could be
It could be a lack of skill. It could be a personal difficulty in the broader context of their life. Work is just one slice. And that's where we want to support these people as best as possible. But if there needs to be action that's taken to...
drive the team forward at the expense of, let's say this particular compassion for this individual, then there's a balance there. And it really boils down to taking an emotion out of it. So I think what it is, is that you try to build like, I totally agree, like this touchy feeling, everyone's happy.
no, it's about performance. The performance of the team, the achievement, the growth, the day-to-day camaraderie is based on achievement. And if that camaraderie is based on the right reasons, not based on hanging out and having fun and goofing off, but it's actually based on success. Real, tangible results. Then that drives the team forward. Of course you want to
be mindful of creating activities that are fun. So it's not like there's a balance, right? Like, so we're not working 18 hours a day and we're like relentless and then we'll become like mercenaries. No, you know, then you have to draw the line, but it's all about a little bit of balance. And so, you know, for me, a great team is about, it's all about achievement and performance, but it's the performance that drives the satisfaction. So if you want to call that pleasure and you want to call that reinforcement, it's, it's about, um,
I improve my skill so I could achieve better results. I work better with my team members so I could achieve better results. You can put this in any framework, right? Because it's the team thing. So it's a combination. Like there has to be personal incentives. Like some people care about making a little bit more money. Like you have to take care of people's lives in a way. You can't divorce the team from the life. So like I could be in this great environment, but I don't get paid. Well,
eventually that's not going to work out. So, you know, and people don't necessarily need to need to be on a team forever. Just look at sports teams. Maybe you have four years with that team and that was the perfect timing to be with the team. Right. But there are certain core, I think themes like growth, achievement, performance, having fun, you know,
Keeping things sort of lighthearted, even in very serious context, and then accountability. It's like if you're not performing, there's no emotion in it, right? It's like, okay, this particular, okay, John, you know, like, we really want to support you. We've had this conversation. You're really struggling. We know why you're struggling. This is not the best place for you.
so there's no emotion so i think once you divorce that negativity and negative emotion that person's actually better off because then they can go to a place that's better for them like they're actually suffering here yeah they're suffering here so i don't think it's like in good times we're happy and bad times we're unhappy it should be in good times we're vigilant about things becoming potentially bad and in bad times we're optimistic that we can make things better
But you have to establish that standard first to find the right people to fit that. Yes. Because otherwise, if you're forcing the fit, then it's not going to work. That's leadership, right? So then that's a different philosophy. So, look, if you're inheriting a team or you're part of a team, then you have to build that incrementally. And you have to have that team taste some of those elements to build the culture. So because you don't have the culture from day one. So they taste parts of the element. They're like, oh, this is the culture I want.
you're building your own team okay you call the shots and then you build that culture but knowing that when you bring people in they're going to change the culture the only thing that won't change is the fact that there is change to these things but easier said than done yeah for sure well let's let's do a little mental exercise here and let's take the example of um
like delivery people, like Wai Mai people, right? Let's take Erle Ma or Dian Ping or Sherpas. My heroes. So let's say you're running that organization. And so you have hundreds, if not thousands of delivery people working for you. And these aren't always going to be the most educated people. And you're going to have so many different types.
What do you think would be the best mode of it? Do you think your company would perform better if, let's say, you took away any sort of consequence or punishment for late deliveries or missing deliveries, and instead you just built in just purely higher incentive programs for...
Bring deliveries on time, you know, or do you think the current way in which if they're late or something, actually they get deducted, right? They get deducted money, for example, if they underperform. Where is the balancing act with that in terms of that specific example? When you're looking at delivery people, you know, you're looking at people that are working really, really hard, that are really grinding, that are really...
there's a high level of motivation. They're doing something that probably you don't need necessarily like higher education for it. Right. So like, I think you first have to start with understanding this population of people and really value and understand that you provide a really important skillset at the same time. Intellectually, it's not the most demanding skillset. It's more of this consistency. And so you have to really understand where these people are coming from, um,
and what their background is. And in China, there's a whole massive industry. Like, you know, maybe many of these people probably come from external provinces there, you know, so like really understanding what their incentive system is and you have to build a strong incentive system, then punishment, whatever you want to call it. Like, you know, there has to be accountability because, you know, when I talked to, um, I value delivery people a lot because it changes my life for the positive. Um, I really value that. And,
And I, you know, and while I'll never really understand sort of their world necessarily, I do try to interact and things like that just to understand a little bit and how they do it. And I typically ask them, like, how do you deliver things on time? Because the services in China are amazing. How do you deliver on time? And how do you do this in a very nice way? Because in the last couple of years, I used to have really poor experiences and it was difficult. And now I feel like...
they're very polite. Not only do you get your stuff on time, but there's a human interaction, a human connection to it, you know? And they're working really- Especially like, like Meituan or something like that. Oh yeah, it's amazing. Their delivery guys are really polite. Yeah, or whatever packages. And so I asked them like, man, like you, what you do is really hard. So yes, please. I value them as people.
You know, they're delivering 200 packets a day, but they're doing it in a network, right? And they're doing it in a tube. So you see the same guy over and over and over. So they're like, oh, no problem. I can do 200, et cetera. So I'm digressing a little bit, but kind of understanding them. And so I think it's really about building a positive incentive system where if you're not delivering on the targets, like you can call it punishment or you can just say that I'm withholding incentives from you.
So the system, the actual concrete specific impact to their bottom line is the same. But if you create a culture of fear, like the taxi system in Beijing, as it was 10 years ago, where you woke up every morning and you owed the company 10,000 RMB, you get a certain result.
And if you change that system and say, okay, like if you deliver this experience and you do this and you do this and you do this, you can get this. People feel much more motivated. So, um,
Is it a punishment system, a reward system? Ultimately, it's how you frame it. But I've seen that evolution, right? From 10 years in Beijing, taking the tax season, it was like incredibly bad to now, you know, there's a very, very different system in place. And you can see how the mechanisms they put in place, the training. Because if it's all punishment, you probably won't train them very much.
much. It's basically like, this is your responsibility. If you fuck up, these are the consequences. But if you change the structure and you say, you know what, we're in this together, we have to succeed together, then, okay,
I'm going to provide these resources for you. So then you look at those DD drivers or whatever, and it's like, yeah, we get training all the time. And I'm like, how do you think? And they're like, ah, it's still a lot of pressure. It's a grind, but the training is really good. It really helps us. Like they tell us exactly what we need to say to you. And we found that if I say that to you, you will get pissed off less. I'm like, great. You know, but that's their reward system. That's their reward system. So like, however you want to frame it,
The framing piece is the most important piece probably rather than like, you know, what do you what like the nomenclature you want to call it? That's sort of my perspective on that piece. But I think you have to treat everyone as a human being. You have to understand their motivations. And then if it's a very sort of rudimentary, menial kind of thing where the skill set is completely replaceable, then you really have to look at an incentive basis to
If it's a higher level system where, you know, everyone's like a banker, then it's more about personal growth, right? There's much more intellectual, mental, team, that kind of thing that goes into it. You know, so it's probably different for different audiences, but it's still ultimately related to their needs, right?
fundamentally, if you want your company's needs to be met, you have to integrate them with the individual's needs. Well, something you just said kind of brings up a good point. And it's interesting to think about in terms of
Okay, so you have two, let's say we have two different examples. So one is, let's say the job, the role, this job is, let's say you say it's a skill that's very easily replaceable. Right? So it's a very low standard of skill. You don't need a degree, you don't need expertise, you don't need experience, anyone can do it. Right? So there's plenty of, there's a big pool of people to replace that person if that person doesn't do well. Meanwhile, you have other job skills where it's very specific.
So you need someone that has a very strong expertise or experience or has to, you know, it's harder to find and replace this person. Well, don't you think it's for the very replaceable job? Don't you think that it would naturally be more of a consequence kind of punishment? I'm using punishment, but, you know, it's not I'm not saying like, you know, you're really going to.
it can be different degrees of punishment. But wouldn't it skew more towards a sort of punishment and consequence system because that guy is so much more replaceable? And for the guy that's less replaceable, or woman that's less replaceable, wouldn't it be skewed more towards an incentive, stronger incentives versus punishment because that guy is less replaceable? I think it's a combination though, right? It's like, I think one cannot be without the other. It's like you need that punishment and reward system because if you think of it from a broader perspective,
The punishment system, if you're, let's go back to the delivery guy. So it's like, okay, so if I'm not delivering within a timeframe, I'll get deducted for whatever because of the amount of time.
Then maybe from that person's point of view, they're just like, okay, well, I'm just going to tabudu, right? Like, I'm just going to make sure that I'm right on time. It's not about, like, even faster. It doesn't matter because I'm not getting incentive if I'm getting faster. I'm just going to make sure that I'm there in time. That's all I care about because I don't want that punishment, right? But with the incentive, it's like, okay, well, if I'm, like, quicker by five minutes or ten minutes, then, like, whoa, I get even better or…
I'm being more polite. I'm saying thank you. I get even more incentive. Then it becomes like that it's not just about the punishment system. It's about the incentive of achieving or gaining through putting more effort. So you have to have both because if you only have incentive, then you don't have that
that punishment that you're calling right to to go against you know what i mean well i guess it comes down to how strong of an incentive but that's a great point because and it's like that's a really great point because if what your expectation is is you just want the minimum and you're okay with the minimum like you're building the fucking pyramids you just need a hundred thousand people to do it then fine it could be a completely punishment system you don't do it you die
Like seriously, like that's happened in history. But every, almost every great achievement in history was off the backs of people suffering. For sure. For sure. And, but if, if what you want is like a little bit more than that and say, okay, my expectation is that I want to have some, you know, upside to it, then it requires that other system. I think the other angle, and I think it's a great question that you ask is that,
The fact that people are replaceable doesn't mean it's an easier human resource problem. In fact, if I have this population of highly educated people, it might be easier to create loyalty, job satisfaction and long term tenure so that even though they're more highly skilled and they're very difficult to find, maybe I find them and then they're there forever.
And it's not a human resources issue at all. In fact, the harder problem to deal with is hiring 1,000 call center agents where I can't provide them that emotional and mental incentive, and I have to operate by a punishment-based system.
That's true. Because punishment system is like, okay, you're out. And then I got to find another person. So just because a, in an industry, something's more replaceable doesn't mean that the ultimate outcome of staffing that in a sustainable way is easier. No, no, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, which is, I'm absolutely not making a claim that it's easier at all. I'm just saying that with a more replaceable job, it's easier to,
If you just wanted the bare minimum, it's easier to just scoot towards the consequences. But maybe we don't think that way. And maybe what we've seen and what I... Okay. As a customer, what I've seen, because I talk to...
I engage with a lot of the people that provide services to me and the reason I do is because I spend a lot of time with them and I spend a lot of time with them and I'm all about loyalty and I'm like okay I'm going to spend my time with this organization if they can prove to deliver and I'm always interested in understanding their human nature right like like Robert Green but like from a very practical like I'm going to engage so I've talked to hundreds I'm
Literally hundreds of people in different service industries. And I understand what motivates you. Because one day when I'm dealing with someone similar, I want to be able to provide positive feedback.
energy into their life and so my sort of like value system is like When you know, I have a short few sometimes is that when I am mindful? I try to provide positive energy because a little bit of positive energy because we interact with hundreds of people a day So everybody has that mindset the world's a better place if everyone's an asshole the world's a worse place And you talk to these people and they really work better
better on a positive incentive system i think what it is is that you set like three or four ground rules which is like you do this you're fired right like there is some like absolute black and white there's very clear expectations very clear expectations and it's like this is the expectation and then you set up an incentive like exactly what how he's saying right so you have a bottom line
and people who can't meet the bottom line for whatever reason, then you don't need to invest inordinate resources for that. It's not effective. It's not efficient. It's not good. And then on top of that, you build an incentive system, a positive incentive system where people don't want to cheat. You know, you don't want motherfuckers like come in your house and then you get a message saying the food's already delivered.
And, you know, like you get a message, the food's already delivered, motherfucker hasn't delivered your food. Right? Like that doesn't... Because they just want to avoid that. Because the punishment. The punishment. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Because I think just like you're expounding on, it's like you have to have that comparison. Yeah. Because if you only focus on that negative, that punishment, then you're only going to get the lowest standard. Yeah.
Right? Yeah. Well, so like...
It's really interesting because your work deals all about outcomes. People think, okay, so Howie does artistic foo-foo shit, right? But actually, Howie delivers incredible products to major corporations or whatever it is, but with an artistic sensibility. You deal with all kinds of teams, and there's our ad hoc teams, right? They're not long-term employees. They're ad hoc teams. You deal with the whole crew. You got to deliver this. The client wants this, blah, blah, blah.
blah, right? What are some of your experiences? Like, what does that look like for you? Cause you're hiring all these people, but in an ad hoc basis, how do you motivate them in a short term? Um,
you know, when they don't even work for you. 'Cause like, that accountability is right there. Motherfucker doesn't do the job. You can't even fire them. - Yeah, you can't even fire them. You're very , right? You're very reactive in terms of your position because you have a project that has a deadline that you need to deliver to a customer right then and there. So you're kind of outsourcing a lot of work as well during that. Everyone needs to come together and they're not your direct employees, right?
So that's a good question. So is punishment, like going back to Justin's original, the broader framework, pleasure versus punishment, what is it? Well, I guess it's different for what I do because, for example, in our industry, everything is about word of mouth, right? Cobain. So there are certain types of positions in a production that...
I tend to always go back to, right? It's usually heads of departments because I've worked with them. There's a good chemistry and I want to continue that because I know how hard it is to find the right chemistry.
So there's, for example, each head department, there's a couple of people in each department that I like to work with. And depending on the schedule, I will choose between them. But there are times where they're all not available. Right. So then what do you do? Because you want, like you said, I need to deliver a certain product within a certain time frame. I need a guarantee that's going to happen.
So then you trickle down, you go to the next person, which is usually the producer. And I trust them. I'm like, look, I'm my main crew. They're unavailable. Who have you worked with that you can trust him? And then they'll give me options. And then I'll look at the, I'll look at their, you know, I'll, I'll look at their experience, what they've done in the past. I'm like, okay, I think their judgment is pretty good. And then,
Maybe we can try it. Right. And that happens all the time. And then we try it. And of course, there are times where I come back and, you know, and later on, I'd be like, dude, that did not work. Right. That was horrible. But that's where I go back to my own abilities where I know that I have to step up and kind of take control and be more micro.
you know, if I have to. Because that's the beauty of teamwork is like, I don't need to be micro if I trust in you and we just work together to get to that goal. But if you're not picking up your weight and you're not delivering to the ability that I think we should be doing, we as a team should be doing,
Then I need to be micro. Then I need to step in and trust in my own abilities. That's how it works. I love that. So let's go to the culture aspect a little bit because you two work for obviously very different companies in very different industries, right? So you're in a smaller company. It's much more creative. You guys are doing media and you guys are creating content, really.
you work, we're not going to say the name of your company, but you work for a very large company. And I would have to gather, though it is a creative space, I would imagine it's much more corporate than, you know, what company. I'm just a robot. You know that, right? This is actually, I didn't send, I'm actually working right now, Justin. I sent my robot. This is a hologram? No, no, they've cloned me. I'm actually working. I don't take any time off. I sent the clone. Okay.
No, but I'm interested to hear from you guys, like, what are the biggest differences in culture? Or even what are the similarities in culture that you guys may share in terms of a very small, kind of more grassroots, creative company versus a huge, large, more corporate, international, you know, entity? No comment.
No, but we're talking about culturally. Because I've done both, right? I used to work in a big corporation in the past, and I've also done the small companies. So the biggest difference, which I think is pretty universal in conversations with other people, is inner company politics, right? So what does that mean? It means the relationships between...
different people within your own department, within other departments, the teamwork of working with other departments and stuff like that. The politics of everyone trying to... It's not necessarily one-up each other, but...
- But look good in the eyes of the superiors. - In a selfish way. - The competition. - Exactly, the competition within that. So smaller companies, you'll have it in a certain way, but because a smaller company, let's say the leadership role is a lot more hands on, so it's a lot more about how good that leader is to deliver whatever you're trying to do.
But in a bigger corporation, you have many different leadership roles that are maybe sometimes fighting each other. So then it's like the people underneath that is like, okay, well then...
I'm seeing all this, but then what about you? I'm going to fight you too then. It becomes almost like... More of the politics. That's where the politics come in because then it's like, okay, who's the alpha? Who's going to be really taking the reins? And then, okay, well then another alpha, am I going to step back and become a beta and follow you? Or am I going to know? You have to listen to me.
it becomes a lot more complicated. Well, do you think it has more, obviously I think it's a little bit of both, but do you think it has more to do with the sheer size and type of company once it becomes a big corporation versus just the type of people that tend to work for a big company versus, let's say, work for a creative startup? You know what I mean? The mentality and character of those type of people who choose different career paths and different companies to go to
may inherently just be different to begin with. So maybe there's less politics in, you know, what the company you're working in now versus, you know, a bigger company you were working at before. I think it's a combination. I think it's the type of field, right? So I've never been in a type of company where it's 100% corporate. So that attracts a different type of personnel and different type of mindset coming in, in general. I'm generalizing, but in general.
So I don't know what it's like on that side. So in the bigger companies that I've worked with where like thousands of people, there are those more corporate type of people in it, but I didn't have to work with them. I work with more of the creative side or like,
semi-creative side. So even then, it's like, it's about touting your creative abilities. It's about, you know, I need to get those projects. So you need to listen to me. You need to give me that chance. That type of dog-eat-dog. As opposed to hitting numbers or like...
You know, like, I'm just assuming that world is like that because I don't work in that world. Well, they care less maybe about, like, the title on their name card. It's more emotional. Versus the creating. Yeah, it's, like, emotional and, like, logical. Like, logically, you should choose me because look at my numbers. As opposed to emotionally, like, you should choose me because I make content that makes people cry or I make content that makes people laugh or, like, I'm creative and, like, look at my shit. It looks beautiful.
I think it's a bit different. So what do you think coming from your side? I think that's great perspective. I think you share a lot of great perspective. I was thinking about that. I think it's more about the team than the company. It's about what your immediate network looks like. So it doesn't matter how big your company is, right? Because you're still working. I'm not working necessarily. If you work for a big company, you're not working with a whole...
you know, hundreds of thousands of people. You're working with that immediate network of people. So certainly the broader framework of the company will influence the culture of your team. But, you know, all the micro cultures within a company are going to be a little bit different. So speaking just generically, but, you know, in part from experience, if you work with a company that has a great culture, then the micro cultures have a higher chance of being successful because that's the broader culture. And then, you know,
it's really the people that you work with day in and day out right now if there needs to be bigger decisions that are made from time to time because you're not making huge decisions every day then you're gonna if you work in a big company you're gonna then press up against the dynamics of that bigger company and then it's sort of how does the structure work in that bigger company but for every big company the decision making for the bigger decisions are going to take a little bit more time because when you make a big decision the impact is so much bigger
So that's probably my perspective on that. So I don't think it's so much...
the size of the company necessarily. There's all these different factors that go into it. You just want to find the environment that really works for you. There can be like a great, great, great company that has an amazing culture in certain parts of the world and maybe not in another part of the world, you know, but I feel very lucky that, you know, the companies I work where I've had the opportunity to experience the different sort of dynamics. I work all small companies and,
my whole career and I work for one big company, you know, and then you learn from each of these experiences. I think I agree with what you said. And that's, that's a good, that's, I think that's a pretty accurate perspective to have. I think though that where the size of the company, let's say does come into play is in, in terms of fueling competition, I think that,
Whether it's a company or a country or anywhere, when there's more people involved, the more competition, it fuels more competition. When there's less people, it's just inherently less competitive. It can still be very competitive, but it's less competitive because there's less people competing. There's less people you need to worry about. In a small company, maybe I just need to worry about this guy.
So I'm competing with him. We're going at it back and forth. In a big company, you're competing with other people, talented people from all different directions. Just because there's more people, there's more roles.
But I guess on the flip side of that, in a bigger company, there's just more roles to fill. So there's more opportunities for people to move up versus a small company. There might just be that one position that you're fighting for. So even though there's less people, there's only that one slot. So maybe it becomes more intense that way. It cuts both ways, though. It definitely cuts both ways because, you know, like...
If you're in a smaller environment, things are a little bit more clear. There's like a little bit less people and you kind of know and there's clear expectations. You work in a big company and there might be a lot more dynamics involved. And I think...
It depends. It really depends. Probably the influencing factor is not so much the size of the company. It's actually what company it is. Yeah. So in terms of like the competition, right? So you have a large company, nothing is clear because there's like a massive bureaucracy. And so everything is like quite complicated. Or you can have like a massive company where things are very, very, very clear. So there's clear paths. And because there's generally more opportunities, right?
there is more room for advancement. I work in small companies where it's like, you know, you could quickly get around. So I think how quickly you can get around is more about the nature of the company than necessarily the size of the company. 100%. But I think in general, there are certain tendencies, right? So like you said, all companies are different. All cultures are different in every company. And every company is unique in its own way. But I think there are certain tendencies between if you took a sample size of, let's say, you know,
100 different large companies versus 100 different small companies you would get varying results for sure but i think you would you would see certain tendencies maybe i mean it'd be interesting interesting i don't know i think it's a great point you got to take sample sizes bigger sample sizes you can't look it out like so for you would you rather based on what you know right would you rather like based on that would you rather work for a big company or small company it would depend on the industry
I don't have a tendency either way, but it would depend on the industry. Let's say, for example... Delivery. That's his goal. No, well, if it was a delivery company... He's like, I want a big one, I want to be the CEO. If it was a delivery company, I probably want to work for a smaller company, actually. Really? Yeah. Why?
I don't know. It's just like, so like for a bigger cup, the bigger companies I would want to work for depends on the industry. So let's say I was in real estate, let's say commercial real estate, for example. I would want to work for a company that would help leverage my position. So a bigger company would have more recognition, more,
People would trust it more because it's a more recognizable name. It would have much more capital resources to help me do my job better. Right. So if my job was to try to get an investment coming in and I worked for a big company, right, very reputable company.
then I think it would be easier for me to pull that money in, for example. Is that what Jessica does? Yes, it is what she does. And for me to land those deals and for me to reach out and even cold call people because I'm coming from a reputable company. If I'm coming from a small, more startup company,
company and I'm in that same position I think the mountain is steeper for me the climb it's not impossible but it's steeper because then you have to educate people and bring awareness we're like oh I'm from this coming they're like who what company and you have to tell them oh we are this and this and this you would have to sell them on the company first before you sell them on yourself and
For a big company, once they know it, instantly they recognize it. Okay, now it's about you. What can you do for me? And then I'll have to sell myself. I wouldn't have to go through the extra process of trying to sell the company. So in addition to depending on a team, it depends on the role. Because, for instance, let's say that there is a...
real estate tech company because you know we now there's like fintech and there's like the prop tech right so let's say that okay i am working for a prop tech company and we're like trying to disrupt the industry as if we were ebay or amazon 20 years ago um then i would want to work for that smaller company because we're trying to disrupt prop tech right but let's say that i'm just a real estate agent trying to sell houses or trying to sell rental property um then you know i'm
I'm going to work for one of the big ones. Exactly. You know? Yeah. So, so like in addition to the actual team dynamic of the culture, small, big company, whatever, it's really the, the role that you have in that career that you have in that particular team. Yeah. Like what are you trying to achieve? So again, it's like big and small. I work for both.
Yeah. Yeah. So I don't have a preference either way. Again, it depends on the industry. So it's almost like you want to ask the question, like, if you want to be the VP of sales, would you rather be the VP of sales of a large company or a small company? Then it's more about what the dynamic of the day-to-day work is. Like, let's say it's the same industry. Yeah. Right? Because it's like some people are like, okay, I want to be the VP of sales of a company.
you know, for, I don't know, Microsoft or whatever, right? A big company. And then some people are like, no, screw that. That's bureaucracy, whatever. I want to be a VP of sales for a high-tech startup company. Well, I think that's where culture comes into play then. That's where the culture of the company plays such an important role of swinging. Because if you're on the fence, right? And let's say the salaries are about the same. So money is kind of out of the issue, right? Yeah.
And now it's a small company, it's a startup, but they're very ambitious. There's a lot of upside, right? They can disrupt the industry. There's a lot of potential there, but it's not unproven potential.
Then you have a big behemoth in the company, right? You want to be the VP of sales. Salary's about the same. Where would you choose? That's where I think precisely where culture comes into play in kind of swaying your decision. What culture would you rather be a part of? Pain or pleasure? Well, it's just like back in the day. I'll do pleasure. I'll do pleasure. Remember back in... I'll do all pain. I'll do Oban. Remember when we were doing Roxland back in the day where we were doing hiring, right? One of the first questions...
That I mean, we both kind of did, right? It's like, so, you know, we're a startup. Like, you know, you have other bigger fashion companies out there. Why us? Like, why would you come to a startup? Right? Yeah. And then so because some people would be like, well, you know, I want I want like, winning. You know, it's like, I want I want I want to be winning and stuff like that. And then I would reply with then this is not for you. You should leave. You know, at the end of the day, you should not be here.
And then other people would be like, "No, I want a challenge. "I want to learn. "I feel like I need to learn a lot. "I feel like I just need to get my hands dirty." - I want free clothes. - I'm like, "Damn."
This is for you because you're hungry. Yeah. Right? Yeah, you bring back a lot of memories because hiring, it was a pain in the ass, but it was a great learning experience at the same time. And it was fun in many ways. And yes, we both did precisely ask that question, whether we were hiring together or on our own. And from what I remember, there were a lot of...
interviews where the person was like really taken aback by that question because I think most of the interviews they go for in terms of trying to find jobs are
no matter how big or small the company is, the company is trying to sell themselves to the potential employee. Like, you know, we're this, we're so great, you know, you want to work here, right? Just to try, probably to drive a harder bargain with them, right? Make them really want to join. But we took a very opposite approach. We wanted to make sure we had the right mentality coming in, right? So very upfront, yeah, the first question, very upfront, we made it very clear, like, look,
We're in a nice office and everything, but we're a startup. We're starting up and we're building whatever department they were interviewing for. We were building that department. Right. You were one of the first hires. We always came at it that way. Right. This is the core team we're building right now. And why why would you want to work here? You know, we really it was an honest question. It's like, why would you want to work here?
And depending on their answer, we kind of realized what mentality they were coming from, what motivated them. And that, in a way, told us much more about that person than a lot of the generic interview questions would have. You know? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, those were good times. That was a big learning experience. Yeah. Which goes back to one of the reasons why I've ever since being in a big company, I
I have made the choice to stay slim in a smaller company. Okay. But what was... You know one way? Yeah. So, okay. So, back in New York, before I moved to China, I was in a bigger company. I was at MTV. And even though I was... Passive bragging again. Humble bragging. I'm not bragging. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. How are you bragging? It's called HB. It's not a proud thing. So, like...
I was in a big company. I was very, very focused on one show. And that's all we did. But then I realized. What was the show? But then I realized. It wasn't a big show. It was like some. It got canceled. Some shitty show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you even have a pilot or what?
So anyway, so it was very, we were very focused on this small little thing and everything was sort of set up to be a certain way. And you just, you know, you just hop in and you just do it. It wasn't very, what's the best way to describe it? It wasn't very exciting in a sense because it was still within this big world.
machine that was moving forward that I was just this little thing, just doing my little thing. It didn't really feel right. But then after that, working with smaller companies, every little thing that I did, whether it was as an assistant to leading, I felt like I really achieved something.
And that's what got me into staying slim with smaller companies. And even now with my own company, like, trying to keep it slim. Like, I don't want to have a big company. I want to have a small company because, like, I want everybody. You want everyone to be lean. Yeah. And I want everybody, when we're doing something, it's like, damn, we're celebrating together. It's not like, it's just us, a little department. You guys just, you guys are doing your own thing. No, we're all together. And, like, we're all just doing it together. Mm-hmm.
You know, when you go to the macro level, because there's always a macro level, and you say, like, you go to, like, the universe, and, like...
You know, we've been here less than a blink of an eye in billions and billions and billions of years. And you feel like you're helpless. And we're all in here. We're just like bugs. And then you go back and say, you know what? I could do something like local. There are people that I talk to, I meet, I engage with, I connect with every single day. I can make a difference in their lives, whether it's like politics or whatever it is. At some level, it's out of your control. And so it's always great. And so it's not like a size thing. It's just...
You look at what's in your control, the weather. No, it's not in my control. But carrying an umbrella, it's in my control. You go back to what's in your control and the people around you. It's all in your control. And there's a lot of positive energy around that. And then you decide, I want to impact these people. And you could be in a big company and you could impact that local presence, that team. So it's not so much like big, small, whatever, like long-term, short-term impact.
There is a certain level of resolution that you can zoom in on and you can make that impact. And that probably is the most, you know, that's the most amazing thing where you get that meeting that sustains you. I think that's also the trend these days for big companies is to whether they're doing it in reality or not.
more for marketing purposes, it's for big companies to act local, right? Big companies always want to act and behave like a startup. And that's been the trend for years now. And I think the lesson is it's not easy to do, especially for massive companies because they have so much at stake. But for us as individuals, we can act local. We can act at a level where we can...
create meaning like in our own lives on a day-to-day basis you know form real real relationships meaningful relationships whether they're fleeting relationships or just momentary it's relationship nonetheless and that could impact not only yourself but other people and people around i guess that's the most i'll drink to that cheers cheers cheers undefeated
We're good. Cheers again. Cheers again. Love it. I don't know if like, I think this will be an audio only podcast because I think Howie's face is going to blend right into that beautiful background. Am I really red still? Yeah.