#128. Steve Shi: A Few Rules For Life
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- What's up everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying this show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe.

All right, we got a really cool guest for you guys today. He is a highly influential Chinese psychotherapist with multiple degrees from the University of Toronto. He's been invited to speak at many of the country's top universities. In 2017, he was named one of China's top 50 most influential psychotherapists. He is the host of the popular Steve Suo podcast and was also the official Chinese translator for Jordan Peterson's book, 12 Rules of

for life. And we love talking about psychology and mental health here. So having an expert that's China-born, but Western educated on the show, we got the chance to discuss the Eastern and Western differences in culture that may affect one's own mental issues, aka generational parental trauma. That's right. Our guest offers a ton of practical advice. So whether you're trying to improve that relationship with your parents, navigate the stress of life in a

big city, or working on your own romantic relationship, we find out that once you take the opportunity to tap into your own trauma, it becomes a goldmine to learn from. So, without further ado, please give it up for Steve Shi. Steve Shi

All right, cheers, Steve. Cheers. Welcome to the show. Thank you. It's a fantastic space. Oh, man. Steve, man, this is a long time coming. Yes. Yeah, I remember you have a podcast yourself, right? Yes. It's called Steve's Soul. Steve's Soul. So Steve says...

Yeah, I remember when we were first connecting on WeChat, I think you asked me, like right off the bat, you asked me like, is your podcast inspired by Joe Rogan by any chance? Wait, who asked that? You did. Oh, really? Yeah. Why? Because I saw the setup and it was really familiar. You saw our YouTube videos? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw the YouTube videos. That's so funny. And then I got a little defensive. I'm like, yes, why?

but I don't really align with all his views because I didn't really know you at the time. And then you started laughing. You're like, bro, don't take it easy. I wasn't inspired by Joe Rogan too. Justin always has to do a disclaimer. I realized. I've gone back and listened to a couple of shows and he's always very defensive. Like, you guys all think I'm just like this Joe Rogan wannabe. It's like, no. I used to be. Not anymore. Yeah.

He's evolved, okay? Yeah. He's like, you guys get me all wrong. Yeah, but the studio, wait. No, he was... I'm not going to lie. He was a big inspiration to me in terms of the whole podcasting thing. Yeah. I think he was a big inspiration to a lot of people. I mean, he really set the bar. Yeah. You know, when I first listened to him...

It's so weird because podcasting is something... If you don't know about it, you don't know about it. But once you start listening to it, you're like, this is great. When do people ever sit down and talk like this? Especially with the smartphones, with the social media, Instagram, stuff like that. You never get such a long...

attention span from people so I was like I immediately I was like I was gonna do something in Chinese like this because we really need it here because people are really socially awkward and they're really afraid of you know opening up and just talk about serious topics because it's always like you know some

somebody says this and somebody says that, and then you get lost in the constant switching of topics. - Yeah, and then the whole idea of being uninterrupted is actually so rare. We don't think about that, but it's really rare in today's day and age of not being interrupted by anything for a period of time. - Yeah, and the other reason I resonated with this format is actually because I do a lot of psychotherapies and counseling, and in those sessions, you talk for 55 minutes,

And it's just like that. Like you get this, you get this goose, you get goosebumps sometimes when you talk about very deep topics without any interference. And that's like a wonderful experience, even though sometimes the stuff you talk about is painful, it's miserable, but yeah,

the sense of connection and intimacy is fantastic. And I was really surprised to find that experience outside of the counseling room, which is podcast. - It's really cathartic, yeah. We talk about this, we joke about this all the time on our show. It's like, this is our own personal therapy session. It really is. Just having people on the show and talking to them, this is therapy for us. - How do you define therapy?

The more academic version is that there's like different types of therapy. There is supportive therapy and educative therapy. And there is reconstructive therapy, which is the most typical one because you go through like a personality reconstruction process.

But for some people, they just need education or they need support. Like if I work with somebody who's going through grief, then that's supportive therapy. All they need is open ears and full attention and not any solution at all. But then there's people who, say, for example, grew up in a terrible family environment, then they definitely need some reconstruction about their self-perception and their...

The way they adjust their emotions and stuff like that. Is there a certain type of focus, type of therapy that you focus on? Yes, I focus on two things mostly. Personal growth, especially issues related to family, parents. And then I focus on interpersonal relationships, romantic relationships, and also friendship. I don't do couple therapy anymore because it's...

Yeah, I tried it. I actually went to a training program for that and I did it for a while and then I realized it's not my thing because I, you know, it's always like the guy is always like, oh, I'm okay. You know, it's my wife's problem. And I always get really, really...

pissed off like come on man you're here let's work so it's it's hard to balance because the guy will always feel like you're siding with the wife sometimes okay now this is not my thing i stick with the individual uh too much drama you know actually i have a question uh well maybe a statement in the question so firstly uh on our show historically speaking we've had a bunch of uh therapists um come on the show and they mainly are western background right and

I'm so excited because you were born in China, right? Chengdu, if I remember correctly. And I would love to like talk a little bit and dissect a little bit about how it is here, you know, with, especially with local Chinese, I'm expecting that is your main clientele. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just curious, like in terms of the local clientele, are there any type of trends or sort of specific types of, you know, traumas or something that you're really dealing with a lot? Yeah. Fantastic question. So, well,

Well, first of all, when I got to Shanghai in 2012,

this industry was still growing or kind of in the very primitive stage. I think psychology, mental health and psychotherapy only got popular after the social media boom in China. So you got WeChat, you got Weibo, you got all those platforms. And then people started spreading articles on psychology. So when I first got to Shanghai, I was trying to find a job and I couldn't find any. That's why I started my freelance career in private practice.

But the past couple of years, we see a huge growth in people's awareness of mental health issues. And you start to see portrayal of mental health problems in films, in TV shows and stuff like that. So that's good. That's good for us. But the other obstacle is that...

This industry relies heavily, heavily on people, practitioners, and there's a shortage of practitioners in China.

in China because it actually takes quite a bit of education to train a competent therapist. But there's very, very few good programs in China. So I think it's mostly people who went to the US or Canada and got trained there and they're coming back. Yeah, so that's one trend. So huge need, but a shortage of supply. The other trend I would say is actually related to the modern history of China.

Because, you know, in the 60s, in the 70s, it was a very turbulent time for Chinese. You know, the Cultural Revolution, the Great Leap Forward and stuff like that. So I think ideologically, it was a very oppressive time. And then the family structure and the family relationships was...

It was devastating for people's intimate relationships. And so when I work with clients who are in their, say, 20s or 30s, I always talk about

what their parents are like and what they've been through and whether there is a parallel between what their problems and their parents' problems and their experiences during the, you know, the 16th and 70s. And I always find something there. There's always historical trauma. There's always intergenerational trauma. Like for my own family, I'll use this as a case example. So,

My father's family was actually, well, my grandfather was a nationalist in the nationalist government, but he decided to stay after 49.

And you can imagine like how terrible it was for him, right? And then my mother's side, they were the OG in the communist party in Yan, like in the 30s, in 1930s. So they were like really OG in the communist parties. And then so when they got married together, there's a lot of differences because for my mother's side,

Like the whole family, their mentality is very orthodox. And it's the emphasis so much on obedience. And there's so little emotional expression. There's so little freedom in terms of what you can say and what you can do. I think back in the days, because people had to

they had to obey like a lot of social orders, regardless of their personal preferences. So from my mother's side, there's very little room for personal preferences. That's the main thing for her. And then from my father's side, because they went through so much trauma, they were prosecuted, the family was prosecuted, and they were really poor. They were so poor that at some point,

they only had one pair of pants at their house and whoever had to go out, they had to take turns. - Pants? - Pants. - Wow. - Yeah, that's how poor they were. Like in the, I think in the late seventies or early eighties. That's like, I'm not making this up. That's what happened, right? - So whoever left the house wore the pants? - Yeah, yeah. - Wow. - Yeah. And you know- - Well, what do they wear at home? Like undies? - I have no idea, but at some point- - What do you think of it? Like they're undies.

We shouldn't be laughing at that. No, I'm not. I'm sorry. It's fine. It's kind of... No, I'm sorry. It's okay. I shouldn't be joking. I just gave Eric the death stare. I was like, what are you laughing at? No, it's... We're sorry, Steve. No, no. It's the alcohol, right? No. No, it's okay. It's okay. Yeah. But yeah, so that's what he's been through. And so when they got together, they have entirely different perspectives on...

on life, on intimate relationships, on family, on education. And then so when I was growing up, like I feel really torn apart because they have very different, they have a lot of differences. It's a culture clash. Yes, yes, exactly. Maybe this is the reason when I went to Canada, like the cultural shock was mild or moderate for me because I was kind of used to, you know, always being caught up in two different sets of values and perspectives. So,

- When I work with clients, I see this situation all the time. Like whenever they have issues, I always trace back to their parents and you'll always see there's some sort of trauma and that leads to people being extremely insecure,

I mean, their parents are very controlling. And, you know, once you lose your sense of control over life or over reality, and that's when trouble starts, right? You will do everything you can to control, to feel safe. So you will push your kids, you will punish them, you will control them. You will micromanage every aspect of your family life. And then you will allow...

you will allow very little free-flowing, free flow of emotions and feelings. And it's always like...

right or wrong over being happy and being relaxed and being intimate. So that's like a very typical thing for my clientele in Chinese. Wait, so how did you, I mean, you seem, I mean, I don't know you that well, but like you seem to have turned out pretty well. Like how did you... He's like, I tricked you. He's like, I'm a mess. Like, how did you cope with it? And how did it affect you? And like, in what ways? This is actually why I got into psychotherapy in the first place to save myself.

I spent the last 15, 20 years working on myself. And at first it was really painful because the first time I started to think about all this was actually in Jordan Peterson's class.

because he's a U of T professor and I went to his class, personality and his transformations. And the assignment we had, typically we write essays, but the essay that we were given was actually a self-authoring exercise, which is basically you divide your life into seven different stages and you talk about events in those stages that had an impact on you.

after finishing that whole thing, I started to realize, okay, so there is like a narrative in my life and it's not a very healthy one. And I started to realize it's not me who's problematic, it's how I've been raised and it's how my parents have been raised, it's what they've been through that was problematic. So I started to kind of isolate who I am with all the contextual factors.

And that started at you taking Jordan Peterson's class? Yes. So he was actually there teaching the class? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this was way before he got viral. He got famous. Before he was famous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in that sense, I'm really thankful for him for providing that opportunity to kind of open up my awareness. But then after that, I spent the next maybe 10 years working on my relationship with my parents because they...

My dad was very controlling and very strict. And sometimes he was really rude to me. And you know how... Because you're all men, right? So you know how the father-son relationship is always really, really tricky. There's competition, there's jealousy, there's aggression. And then there's rebellion. Everything mixed up. I remember, I think...

maybe seven, eight years ago, there was a turning point in our relationship. So it was Chinese New Year. I went back to his house. He gave me a red envelope and a bunch of RMB just to celebrate.

We had some guests coming into our house, and one of them is a kid who's a few years younger than me. He was really well-dressed, you know, Burberry and stuff like that. But I was at home, so I was dressing like crappy clothes. So when they left, my dad was like, look at you. You look like a farmer or something.

And he said it in a very hostile, critical way. And I got so pissed. So I went to my room, I fetched the envelope, and I just splashed the money on his face. It was like, boom. Oh, damn. It was really, it was movie-like, right? Wait, how many years ago was this? Seven...

eight years ago such a bad boy so you're big so you were too big for him to beat you after that what were you I did that he was really shocked and so I went to my room and then after maybe five minutes he came over he apologized oh wow so that's the I think that's the first time I had a direct show of force and he kind of realized that you know he can't treat me like a small kid anymore

Yeah, but that was seven years ago. But before that, it was all like he was the big dog. I was the little kid. Did you get beat as a kid or did they not beat kids? A lot when I was small, but after I left for Canada, then they stopped because of the physical isolation. But that's the kind of struggle that you go through. You have to... But you were what? How old were you when you went to Canada? 17. So you got beat till you're 17? Yeah.

I'm just trying to see. Oh, okay. I got beat up. I'm competing against you. Eric's still getting beat to this day.

Really? I think I got beat up until maybe 13, 14. And then it was verbal abuse. Yeah. So it's like there's a lot of work, right? There's so many different aspects. And with my mom, it's a different situation because her emotional expression is very inhibited.

So it's hard to get to her. And whenever I look for emotional support from her, it's always very disappointing because she's always talking about what's the right thing to do. She always focuses on...

you know, the Chinese word for being right, I guess. Like principle. Principles or stuff like that. And emotionally, it's very aloof and distant. And that hurts me as well because, you know, we always have this instinct to cling to our moms for emotional support, but she's always rejecting me on that. But do you find that that's the...

I would say a stereotype of Chinese people in general, though, in terms of not really being able to open up emotionally. Do you think that is or am I off? I think it just has to do with the generation because I see now people are way more transparent and honest. I have a couple of podcast hosts. They did a show together. They're in their 40s and they cried on the show.

And people cried with them on the specific episode when they were talking about their fathers.

And, you know, they're way more transparent now. So I don't think it's the Chinese. It's the, you know, it's the national identity. I think it has to do with the historical context. Yeah. But obviously that's something that we can't really talk about openly in China. You know? Yeah. And every family, I think, obviously is going to be a little different, right? Like, I feel like not every, I don't know, like there's probably a lot of cases like what you went through for sure.

But not every family that came out of that era is also, I think, as intense or severe as what you're describing your family to be either, right? I have a biased sample, obviously, because people who don't come to me are probably the good ones. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Because if they're coming to you, there's a reason they're coming to you. Yes. Yes. So I've seen the, I guess, the worst part of the population and it's all the same. So your clients are mostly, okay, mostly Chinese, Chinese.

20s to 30s, well-educated young professionals, right? What is the most common issues you're seeing? Is there a pattern there? They always come to me with relationship issues.

- Like family relationships? - Romantic relationships. - Intimacy. - Oh, okay. - Because they always have issues connecting with their spouses or there's a terrible breakup. And that's actually something that's painful enough to motivate people to get help. Otherwise, you know. - Yeah. - Yeah. So they come in, they're like, "Okay, I've been through this terrible breakup and I'm really in pain. And so we'll work, we'll talk about what happened."

But as we go through how the client behaved in the relationship, there's always something that's related to their identity, the way they see themselves, and then how their parents treated them. So there's all... At first, I didn't see this connection. But after cases after cases, I start to see this link. Romantic relationship, self-relationship, and family relationship. It's always like this. Well, we can't escape where we're from, right? And how we're brought up. Because, yes, because...

Being in a relationship is very complicated. So you almost need like a script or like a guide, like a direction, right? You almost need like a book or a user's manual. But who provides you with that user's manual? It's always your parents. Unless you have your own, you spend extra time reading about other stuff. Like,

Unless there's a conscious effort to learn alternative mentalities. Otherwise, you're always unconsciously replicating how your parents treat each other. And when that happens, there's always a lot of parallels. So is it true that if people come from a broken home, they're far more likely to have a broken home themselves? And people who come from a well, healthy family environment also have broken homes?

healthy environments? I mean, there's exceptions, of course, but is that the general trend from the research? I think, I don't know about research, but like in my experiences, yes. So even if you have issues, but if you come from a relatively stable and peaceful home, then your issues will be less severe. So that's definitely like a buffering factor there. If you come from a broken home, yeah,

you'll end up with more difficulties in relationships. But if you can, like I say this to my clients all the time, if you can use this opportunity to reflect on what happened,

then you will turn that into a goldmine for yourself in terms of personal growth. Because that's what happened to me. All the issues in my home gave me so much material to reflect on, to think about. And then I learned so much from those things.

And then so that almost gives you like a boost in terms of your maturity process. Like an emotional toolbox too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're forced to create these tools to cope. But that has to be consciously done. Like it has to be a conscious process of self-reflection. And that makes sense in a way where, okay, it's like, let's say you come from like a stable home.

So then you don't have like trauma coming into it. Like nothing is necessarily broken. So you're starting from this place, but then if you get into a bad relationship or you have difficulties or you get into some kind of difficult situation, your stable home is not gonna save you from that.

Like you still have to figure out those problems, whatever they are. But if you come from a broken home and you're carrying trauma already, and then you're carrying maybe unhealthy influences, and then you get into the same thing, then it's gonna be worse. Because like you're coming from a weaker psychological position, you're marrying maybe negative behaviors. But the silver lining is that, like you're saying is that if you can build the self-awareness, you can get external help. Maybe the fact that you come from a broken thing

It's so painful that you actually go for help and then you'll be ahead of that other person. Yeah. You'll come out. It'll become a superpower. It'll become like kind of a superpower. Like you're forged through fire. So it's kind of like nature versus nurture. Like there's this element of like, there's a certain, I guess, level that you'll be in life in terms of your mental health or anything else. But then you have the ability to,

you know, to kind of move from that. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty much it. That's really cool. Yeah. There was something interesting you were saying like several minutes ago, how in people in these relationships, they kind of lose control on reality. What do you mean by that in terms of reality? I think what I mean was when people go through trauma, they will

they will form a twisted, a distorted perception of reality. So say for example, like for me, I grew up in the household where there's constant tension and conflicts. And the way my mom dealt with the conflicts was to walk away, to not say anything and to basically be passive aggressive.

And that was the norm for her. And so my perception of how we deal with issues in relationships is to walk away. So that became my norm. So when I got together with my wife, she started to realize, how come you don't give me any response at all? Why are you doing that? Because she comes from a family where... I'm exactly the same way. I shouldn't be that way. Is that bad? Yeah.

I always thought it was like, okay, because like, it's like, I don't want to, I don't want to keep escalating the situation by like arguing back. Right. And I would just walk away. It's definitely passive aggressive. I'll admit that it's definitely passive aggressive, but I feel like I'll just remove myself from this conversation. I think it's not even like, I'm, I wasn't even being like conscious of being passive aggressive. It's almost like,

This is how I grew up. This is what I grew up with. This is like the norm. So this is the only version of how things can go. What version did you get from your dad? And why did one play out more strongly? I'm kind of curious.

I think his version is he's always criticizing and he's always anxious, I guess, and very tense. And I also get that. I also have that. Like when things don't go my way, I get tense and I get critical. And then I have issues with my wife. And then she fights back and then I get...

I walk away or I just shut down. Yeah. At least in the first couple of, maybe first one or two years of our relationships, that's what happened. And then, so like this is, this is like probably like the worst version of it that you're telling us, right? Before, because now you treat people for it and then you have like, obviously some level of awareness. Yeah. Like how does it show up for you now? Like, do you find yourself like,

maybe going through this script and then you press pause or are you able to even see it before it comes and then like act differently?

Right now, I just pause and then I just think to myself, okay, you're doing this again, so do something different. And also, I had a lot of conversations with my wife in terms of what she's expecting and what's healthy for us. So it's almost like we have to rewrite, we have to create a new script for how we deal with things. So it's much better now. Very occasionally, the old habits come back.

But then once I become aware of it, I switch to a different mode. In terms of this conversation we're having right now, what would be some condensed advice you feel like you would give people who are also struggling with intimate relationship issues? One point that I think is very important because emotional neglect is very, very common in China.

So, say for example, when I walk away, when there's a conflict, I'm actually ignoring the fact that the other person is hurt or suffering and needs attention and help. But by walking away, by ignoring her, I'm denying that part of her. I'm neglecting her need for help. That's something that's always outside of my consciousness.

But once I start to think in that perspective, whenever I feel the urge to walk away, I always think about, wait, how about the other person? If I walk away, how is she going to feel? She's definitely going to be feeling, you know, she's being abandoned and deserted and ignored. And that's terrible.

And I had to remind myself being ignored is terrible. Like, because I was so used to being ignored that it doesn't feel painful anymore. But I have to remind myself, no, no, no, hold on. It is painful. Even though you don't feel it sometimes, it is. It's an objective fact that it's painful. So I have to keep reminding myself that. So, yeah. So once I start to, once I build that into my mentality, yeah.

I will feel more, I guess, pressure or guilt walking away and shutting down. And now I'll start to open up a little more. Steve, like, I feel like we're like brothers. Because...

Like, not only do I have like this, like the emotional neglect part of the behavior sometimes, but I also have like where I blow up. Right. And like, cause I think I, like I have a little bit of that, right? Two headed monster. Yeah. The two headed monster. Right. Cause I have like, I have both sides and so I could totally like, I know I blow up because that's a theme of the show, right? Like where, where over time, like you just don't know how to deal with stuff and then you kind of see how, um, you know, I kind of, I grew up in a family. It's like,

It was actually very emotional, you know, which is great because when I hear your side of the story, then it's like there's always a trade-off, right? But it was like very Chinese in that way, like very loud and emotional, like Italian style almost if you think about it. But then I just realized that I also have this where like sometimes I just walk away and then I get the feedback that like you really hurt me. You just walked away, right? And so it's like you're trying to inflict...

as much damage as you can, right? And so sometimes I inflict as much damage just by like yelling and whatever and saying mean things like what you're saying your dad does. And then sometimes I inflict damage by not saying anything and just walking away, right? And it's like, it's almost like you're trying to cause maximum damage because you are so hurt and you're just trying to lash out again. And you're lashing out, not just against the person, actually has nothing to do with them. You're lashing out because you grew up and you experienced a lot of this stuff.

And it's so interesting that in that moment, you're so focused on your own emotions that you don't know you're hurting the other person tremendously. And then they tell you later. I think it's because for people, it's better to get negative responses from others than no responses at all.

like people will feel worse if they're neglected so they would rather piss the other person off and then you have a fight and that's like it's a strong it's a negative but it's a very strong emotional stimulation and it's better than nothing so sometimes I can agree with you on that yeah so we do that all the time like you know everybody does that yeah I was just shaking my head the whole time and

Because I almost want to call my wife down here right now. I'm sitting here in a pool of my own guilt right now, honestly.

I'm not even joking. Let's call all our wives. I'm not even joking. I'm not even joking. So, Steve, we won't be like those guys that are like, I didn't do anything wrong. No, you've got some sensitive, vulnerable human beings here. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. I think that's also, I'm guessing that's also what doing podcasts have done for you guys, right? It's more, opens you up. Yeah, you're kind of forced to in a way, right? Yeah.

Well, that's one thing I just want to add to that because using Justin as an example here, if you know Justin from outside, he rarely talks about his feelings. He rarely opens up. He's kind of like, you know, emotionally neglectful. Yeah, he's like, yeah. But on the show, he's much more willing to open up and talk about his problems, talk about his issues, and

and be open and just be vulnerable. Yeah. And I think because you're kind of rewarded for being honest and open and transparent. Yeah. No, that is true. There is a reinforcement there.

Yeah, I mean, part of it is just kind of silly in the sense that like the show's called The Honest Drink, right? So we kind of have to be vulnerable. And that's kind of like how we started off the show in the first place. Like our very earliest episodes were about the midlife crisis. Oh, okay. And it kind of just grew into this thing where we talk about everything now. So yeah, I mean, like to start off the show, like I was saying, like this is like a therapy session. And that's how, that's a lot of how I view it because like,

It almost has to be that way for you to really start uncovering a lot of the really meaningful things in the discussion. Otherwise, your own is just talking really surface. Yeah. Otherwise, it's just all small talk. You know what's funny, Justin? It's like...

So before the show, sometimes we talk, but sometimes I don't feel like we talk at all. And then sometimes we'll get, I mean, we've known each other for more than 10 years, and then we've had different types of, I don't wanna call it conflict, but we just had different moments, right? And we're really good friends, but then there's these moments

And then it's like, I just, just thinking like, so if I really ever really want to talk to you and get you to talk, just do a show. You know what I'm saying? How do you not know that by now? How do you not know that by now? No, because like, you know, and I was like, I was like beating around the bush earlier. Cause like, like, cause I was like chatting with Howie before the show and he's like really talkative. And then you would like chime in, you know, once in a while to Buster Balls or something. And I was like, oh, did you sleep well last night? You know, whatever. And it's like, I just, no, you just...

uncovered it for me. So that's kind of his sort of thing. Yeah. We'll just throw on the mic, turn on the video camera. I didn't know it was like, even with us, I thought you were just kind of this, the strong, the strong silent type. No, because as Steve, as you're talking about this idea of like emotional neglect, like that really resonates with me because like, as I'm doing more self reflection on myself, like,

I think that's definitely something I'm guilty of. Like whether it's with my wife or even with my friends. And I don't know. I don't know why that is. I would definitely not blame myself. I would suggest that you don't blame yourself for being that way. Because I do think there's a very, very strong cultural or contextual...

environmental factor to it. This is actually something that I want to ask you guys about because you're all born in the US, but you're still, you know, you're Asians, right? So being in China and being in the US, do you, like, I'm curious if there's still this cultural, this common factor culturally where, like, neglect, I think that's something that's very typically East Asian because

because we're, we have this, we emphasize on family values, you know, we emphasize on sacrificing for your families. So it's almost like culturally we're rewarded for neglecting ourselves, our personal needs and we're rewarded

for sacrificing yourself for other people. So, I don't know, like culturally, I think there's like this reward system where the more you neglect yourself and live for others, the more you are... Yeah, because it's more of a communal mindset, right? Yes, yes. And also you add on the fact that the culture here is much more about means, like face and reputation, I think, is, you know, historically here is a very strong rooted kind of thing. And so culturally,

kind of being emotional and connecting makes you vulnerable in that way and you might not be willing to do that so much in public I guess yeah yeah and also just if you think too much about your personal needs your emotional needs that creates trouble for your family because then people will tend they will spend too much time it's like a burden on them yep a burden and like at least for me I think a lot of Chinese they feel really ashamed being a burden to their family do they do your do your clients express that

I think they're already at the stage where neglect is like the most rewarded, the most expected state that they don't think about it anymore. Because people grow up in houses where parents will always say, if you are being a good kid, if you're 懂事, 听话, if you're obedient, if you're... 孝顺. 孝顺, yeah. Like those words all imply...

they all imply this expectation that if you are ignored, it's for a good cause, it's for a good reason, and you should stick with it, you should be okay with it.

So people don't think about it, but if you dig into it, that's where the whole thing about neglect comes from. And that's where neglect is normalized. And you feel like it's okay. But once you get into your own relationship and you will see issues all over the place and they always go back to this. One thing I've always said, and I feel like I've mentioned this on the show. Personally, if I'm going to share something, so question.

Growing up, I felt my father was never really around, right? So I always had that thing towards him, this neglect, I would say. But he was doing his work, and so he was never really around. Even when he was around, it wasn't about me personally. It was more about him doing his other stuff. So I grew up holding that, a grudge, right? And it wasn't until after college that I kind of faced him and told him about it and broke it down and forgave him afterwards.

But because of that, the way I am with my kids now, I feel like I'm the opposite. Like, I need to be there as much as possible. You're compensating. Almost like compensating because I know how it made me feel. Right. And I don't want them to feel that. Right? So it's like this opposite thing happening. Like, yeah, people always say that. I've never become...

someone like my mom or my dad they always say that but they always end up like they end up kind of becoming that yes no really no well like sometimes like they they end up going back to that or they go so far to the other extreme that it's also not healthy because like they're rebelling against it so either like you just unconsciously mirror it which is a big issue because that's what steve is saying is like we're doing all these things there's these invisible scripts

There's these things that are just unspoken rules that have become norms in our mind. And it's like so cultural and even like traditions in our family. But then sometimes like, you know, you completely do the opposite. Like, I'm never going to do that. I'm like, you know, my parents, like they did X, Y, and Z. So I'm going to do the opposite. And that's like, could be a very bad thing too. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like if you're compensating, right, what happens is that

you think you're not neglecting your kids, but what you're really doing is you're compensating for your own issues that you actually start to ignore your kids. You know what I mean? Like what their true needs are. Yes. Yes. Because you are using...

Well, not like nothing personal. It's still early. Everything's still early. Yeah. It's too late, dude. It's game over. It's game over. I saw your kids and like, like they don't even, they look so. They don't stand a chance. They look, they look traumatized. Like they look so, they're like seven months old and they're traumatized. Yeah.

It's possible, right? Like you will use your kids as a, almost as a medium or as a tool for your personal conversation. Because this happens like with my clients, like some of their, say for example, there's a, if a woman, I mean, if a mother is neglected in her marriage or in her own house, and when she raises a daughter,

she will actually become very, very controlling because she's like, I'm going to give you all my attention. But

She's doing that not because this is good for the daughter, but because this makes her feel less painful. Yeah, it's satisfying her own need, right? And then when you overcompensate, something like in that example, you can become suffocating to your kid. Yes, yes. So the way I work, because my father was pretty much absent when I was a kid too. And then I also had this confrontation. But I think the way I worked this out was that...

I basically talked to him about what happened and why he was away and why he was absent and what he was thinking. And then I realized it's more complicated than that. It's not as if he had an option, but he didn't want to pay attention to me. So because our family was struggling economically in the earlier years of my life, so he had to work his ass off.

And then there's also the fact that he had a lot of trauma when he was a kid. And then there's also issues with my mother. So it's almost like by talking to him, by understanding what was going through in his mind, I realized that the neglect was not intentional, like not to the full extent. And then some parts of the neglect was inevitable.

And so I think that understanding really helped me see how there's always going to be some neglect. Some of the neglects are inevitable. And so you just have to live with it.

I will not, if I have kids, I will not try to give them my full attention all the time because it's impossible because being a parent is very hard. It's very challenging. So kids will be ignored to some extent and that's okay because that's the limitation of human beings. That's the limitation of being a parent. Well, that's also a time for them to grow and grow.

And build independence as well, right? So I ended up with this moderate, with this position in the middle. I don't like extreme neglect, but I don't suggest or propose or promote full attention, which is what happens to a lot of the Chinese parents right now. They're always with their kids. I have a nephew who's nine years old.

the parents and the grandparents they're like when he was playing they're always telling him which toy to play with don't do this don't do that it's starting already yeah yeah especially if you only have one child too yes because then all the attention is focused on one one focal point and you think that's not neglect but that is neglect because they're not asking the kid what he wants they're not giving him space to figure out what he wants to do right so it's so weird it's

It's a very dialectic relationship. And it makes total sense because like Justin used the same terminology that Steve just used. It's like by forcing like what you think is what they need and like you're forcing something, it's actually based on your own trauma. Then like the other person is not getting their needs. So neglect is not like either a presence or absence of something.

you know, like neglect, like, or it's not the absence of something. Neglect is actually when that person needs something in that particular thing, it's the absence of that. So you could be like totally overbearing. You could be with your kids 24 seven and they could totally be emotionally disconnected with you. And that's like a sort of a neglect. Yeah. Like on this topic, I'm just curious then if there's like one thing that

that we have to stop doing as like parents or friends or even as- - Husbands. - Husbands or as the son, like the word that comes to my mind, but I'm kind of curious for you is, is it like blame? Is blame like the thing that we have to stop doing?

Um, or is it like judge being judgmental or is it making assumptions? Like what gets us to the point where we're creating this, this negativity that's damaged continues the damage things after the damage has already happened. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good question. I think, um, I think Blaine, um,

is usually the starting point of a conversation. You start, like for me, I start blaming my dad. Being able to blame others for your pain is not entirely a bad thing because at least you're acknowledging that you're in pain, right? So I started talking to my dad by blaming him. But after blaming him, I didn't stop there.

Then I was thinking, okay, so now I blame you. So now I splash the money in your face. And now what? And then we talk. Like, what were you thinking? What was your mindset? What did you do with my education when I was a kid? What was going through your head when you look at me? So like that, the conversation that happens after, I think that's the most critical part. Because as someone who's blamed or as a victim,

it's almost like you have this tunnel vision, you only see your pain, you only see the parts that are bugging you, but you don't see other people's narratives, you don't see their stories. And I think the most helpful thing to do is to expand your vision, to expand your consciousness, to see things in the web of events and people, not in the sense of I'm the victim and that's a perpetrator.

Because if you think in that term, then you'll always be in pain, even though you're blaming that person, but you're always self-victimizing and that's not healthy. So when I talk to my clients, I always ask them to expand on their family history, who their parents are, what kind of people they are,

And to start humanize their parents. And so that they can see that, oh, my parents, they're just people. They're not gods. They're not, you know, omnipotent. They can't do everything perfect. Because, you know, when we blame people, sometimes we will have this assumption that you're supposed to be perfect. You're supposed to never make mistakes. Right? And that...

raises your expectations so high that you're constantly... Could it be the opposite as well, though? You just said that, okay, you're the parent, you're supposed to be perfect, but could it be the opposite as well? It's like, you suck. You know what I mean? Like the parents saying that to the kids? No, the kids saying that to the parents. Oh. Well, it's the same thing. If a kid says to the parent, you suck, like...

Obviously, there's very strong disappointments there. Why? Because it was very high. The standard there. The standard's there. It's like, you know, the way you put it is like omnipotent or like perfect. Or it's just simply the idea of like, you're the parent, you should be a good parent. Quote unquote, a good parent. Like, what is a good parent, right? We have this idea of what good is. And anything that kind of falls short of that, all of a sudden, it kind of just,

Where we say like, oh, you failed at being a parent almost. This is actually like a very natural phenomenon because if you think about it, when we were a little baby, right? Our parents are perfect. They provide you with everything. So we start off our lives

Feeling that there's two perfect parents taking care of us. But as we grow, our developmental needs become more and more complex. And our parents will start to fail us and disappoint us in different aspects. And then as you grow older, you will notice those disappointments. And you will start to think,

wait a minute, I used to believe you. I used to think you're perfect. And then that's when people start to struggle. But for me, it's like, no, like it's when you grow up, you should go through this transformation with your parents where they will come down from the altar of perfect God, a perfect parent, parental God. And you should start to see them as just normal, average people.

even vulnerable human beings. And that's good for you because that humanizes your parents and you will be able to abandon your expectations and you will stop feeling painful and frustrated all the time.

And then as you grow up, like you said, and then the scary thing that we all go through, or maybe some of us go through, is that then you're like 30 years old and then you're still the child, but like you're the child in environments where it doesn't serve you to be the child. Right. Your parents aren't even freaking there. So then like, and so then you, and then you're in a work environment and all these other people are coming into it with their own issues. Right. And then you start really struggling because you're going into it based on

everything that you went through with your parents, but then now you're in a much more complex environment. Yeah, no. Because for TA, transaction analysis, they talk about the adult state, right? Where you're being rational and you're mature. And that's the kind of relationship I help my clients achieve with their parents. Like you have to...

Basically, just be adults with your parents. But that's very difficult because the Chinese culture always expects you to be...

obedience and... - Xiaoshun. - Xiaoshun, right? Like that's the... - It's pounded into your head. - Yes, yes. - But like in China, there's like a meta state where like the society itself is like a parent ego type. So everyone's a child in this society. - Yeah, well it trickles down to all facets, right? And I think that, like, I don't know, but I think that also is a distinction between, let's say American culture and Chinese culture

I think in American culture, the parents raise the kid. The kid grows up and it's like, oh, you're a man now. Or you're an adult. You're a woman now. You're a strong, independent woman. Off you go. We can be friends now almost. Call me by my first name. Call me by my first name. I had a lot of friends in America that did. They called their parents by their first name. That was a huge contra shock for me. I can't imagine calling my parents by their first name. Because I would go to their house and I'd be like...

Oh, Mrs. Smith? They're like, no, Eric, call me Jane. I'm like, I can't even call my mom. I have to call my mother. I would always have to be like, oh, Mr. Mrs., right? And I can't even imagine calling my own parents by their first name. Even now, I can't even imagine that. Dude, my parents would still whoop my ass right now. They beat me. In Asian culture and Chinese culture,

Like no matter how old you get, if your parents are still around, there's always that hierarchy. You're always a child. There's always that position. There's always that hierarchy and position of adult-child relationship. That never changes. No. And the behaviors. And it's not just, it's not all like a negative thing, right? It's like I was talking to my mom today. My mom was doing stuff still as if I was like 10.

Like she's like, oh, I got to do this and I got to do this and I got to do this. My mom's best friend was in town and like I grew up and I knew this auntie. She's almost like my mom's sister. And like even, and she's such a sweet person. She's very different than my mom. But she was just like, she was like, oh.

I didn't come across the right way. I love you, mom. She's such a lovely person. Very different than my mom. No, my mom is also very lovely, but they're just very different because she's... My mom's more like anxious and all that stuff, more like kind of like your dad. And then this auntie is like, you know, a little bit more... I think she's just...

steps back a little bit but she keeps telling me it's like your mom is just so relieved that like finally you know you're married and all this stuff and she's like so she's like relaying the parent interpreting almost yeah like she's like kind of adult adult in a way right because that's how he treats like she like the way she raised her kids like like what she was talking about it and i know her kids as well

But she's like relaying the parent-child thing from my mom. It's like, oh, like, 终于放心了,你比较懂事, 你现在很听话。 Like all these things, right? It's like we're in freaking America. Meanwhile, you're like 40-something or something. I know. We're like in America and...

Like we're like living the same way that you do, right? So it's really, no, it's a cool thing too, that culture exists everywhere. Maybe that's just the safest way to express or to talk about things, you know, because I always had this sense that we live out our cultural scripts, right?

Exactly, because that's kind of the common agreements that we make with each other. So it's safe. Like for parents, it's safe to express your love for your kids in that sense. Always telling your kids to put on extra clothes because it's cold outside. Even though it's nagging, even though it's annoying. For the parents, it's almost like that's, in their mentality, that's the only way, that's the best way to express love, right? But what I always push for is

is more authentic and more spontaneous expression of love. You can express love in so many ways that if you stick to the family roles, you will be so limited and you will only have this one option. Say for example, one thing I talked to my dad that I think is very rare is death anxiety. - Death anxiety? - Yes, my dad has very strong death anxiety.

And if I'm a kid, I would never talk to my dad about death, right? Because that's sort of not very respectful and, you know, it's not jì lì, it's not a...

a good thing to talk about. Like, death is such a taboo in Chinese culture that you should never even think about your parents being dead. - They don't even bring it up. - Yes, yes. But for me, it's like, I see it and I see it in his behavior. And then so I, like, sometimes I'll just tell him, "Hey, let's talk about this." Right? And then he talks and then he gets so much, like, relief from being able to talk to me about it. - Who has that anxiety? - My dad.

He has anxiety that, like, he won't be around to see you. No, no, no. Like, about his own death. Because it's so funny because at one point, he was thinking about turning into a Christian, though he's never, ever...

spiritual person. He wants to be saved. Yeah, yeah. So I was like, why are you like getting to all this stuff? He's like, you know, because I thought it was ridiculous because I know him. He's never a spiritual person. That never happened, right? And then I was like, why, are you just curious? Are you just messing around? What is it? And then I start to realize, okay, he's actually thinking about what happens, you know, at

in his afterlife yeah because he's had friends and people he knows passing away like year after year that's trauma itself yeah yeah yeah so it's like this is my way of expressing my love I know there's a cultural taboo of not talking about death but hey he's

He's suffering from it. He's in pain, right? Why should I neglect him because of the cultural expectations? So I decided to come up with my own way of expressing my love and concern for him, which is to address what he really needs. But if I stick to the family values,

Never. This never happens. You know, I was talking about earlier how if you get the chance to really talk to them about what happened in their lives, then you will have more understanding, more compassion for who they are today. For my mom, it's the same thing. You know, like right now, my way of dealing with this is that I know her trauma. I know her history. And I know it's difficult for her. And right now, the way she's dealing with it, the way she's dealing with everything is,

To me, it's not the best way, but I would rather believe it to her. It's her best way. So then I respect that. So then I'll tell myself it's okay that sometimes she's not opening up to me because at least she feels safe. So even though I'm losing some of the stuff that I want, but that's okay. So

We have to live with disappointments and frustrations. Life is never perfect. You can't get everything you want, right? I have a question to ask you. I want to bring it back a little bit because you did mention about the expression of love and understanding the expression of love. So one thing that I've heard about, I don't know much about, but maybe you can answer, which is I think there's like three archetypes of love expression or maybe four. Okay.

Have you heard about this? Yeah. I don't know if I'm right or wrong. There's like the verbal, there's physical, there's like gift giving. I think there's five. Oh, there's five? Five languages of love. Yeah. Yeah. Is that something that you practice or you believe in? Because I feel like if that is true, that's a big thing, right? That's a way of communicating, right? Yeah. Is understanding that. I think it's a good way to understand love.

the differences in people's expressions. Like for my wife, it's mostly she needs verbal expression. For me, it's always like, I always do things for her. So sometimes she'll be like, "Do you really love me?" Like, "Yeah, of course I do." But like- - I don't say it, I just do it. - Yes, yes. Like I feel proud, like I do things for her, but she's like, "No, you gotta say it to me. You gotta tell me." - I totally get that. - You can never win in that game. There's never, you can never fully satisfy. - I think they just want, I think our wives want all five.

They just want all five. And a hidden sixth one that we don't know about. No, okay. I think this, in a way, I want to segue into

a little bit to your work translating Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life. And there's probably some connection here because as we're having this whole conversation, it keeps reminding me of that rule, the rule of, I forgot which rule it was in that book, but it was like, don't let your kids do anything that will make you dislike them. That was one of the rules. So I kept thinking about that, but let's first start off with what rules

What was your work translating his book? How did you get the opportunity to do that? And what was that like? Yeah. It's very, very accidental because I was reading the English version when it came out and I thought this is such a great book. And of course, it's Jordan Peterson. So I went to his, I took his classes in, I think, 2013-ish, 2014. Oh, no, no, sorry. No, 2006 and 2007.

in those two years. I took two of his classes. This was before he got famous and I really loved his lectures. He's very insightful and he talks a lot. He used to have a huge beard. Anyways, so after graduate, I came back to China. I stopped paying attention to him and then his book came out and then I read it. I was like, wow, this is fantastic. And it's the same sense of excitement and inspiration that I got from the class. So,

So I was like, I want to translate the book because I have a big Chinese audience. I want to introduce this book to him. So I basically posted on social media, hey, I'm looking to translate this book. Does anyone know which Chinese publisher signed the copyrights? And a friend saw this and he had a connection with the publisher who actually signed the Chinese copyright. And they're saying, oh, we already have a translator working on this.

but that guy is having a hard time because he thought it's some pop psychology book, but it's actually very, very difficult and deep. Jordan Peterson, I would imagine is very difficult to translate. I was like, okay, let me introduce myself. Wow. And then they ended up like dropping that translator and they signed the job to me.

That's grabbing the bull by its horns, man. Where did you post this message? That other translator must be so pissed. On WeChat, on Penguquan, and also on Weibo. So it's everywhere. Wow. Did the fact that you were actually a student of Jordan Peterson's once help in that? Definitely. Did he remember you at all? Did you ever get to meet him? No. No. Oh, wow. No. So I just went ahead and translated the whole thing.

And it was actually a very, very difficult process. Like it was painful for me. I'm sure. I stopped everything except a few clients and weekly podcasts, but everything else I stopped because it's a very long book and it's very difficult. Some parts of it is very difficult to translate. The Western religious aspects that he uses because he draws like his influences and he uses those stories to kind of

- I think even just the way he writes and talks is difficult to translate. - But you know the religious aspect of it, like I spent a lot of time translating that and a lot of it was not in the final work. 'Cause the publisher, they had to do a second editing and you're not allowed to talk about it. - Yes, because of censorship, because of all sorts of restrictions. - Too religious. - Oh, interesting. - A lot of the religious parts and also almost all the political parts were edited out.

Yeah. And people are writing online, this translator sucks. Oh, God. They were blaming it on you. Yeah. I was like, no. I translate everything word by word. Yeah. No. Yeah. I was like, whatever. You know, I just, that's got to suck. But how does context stay, like, how does his thought stay in context if you're taking out, like,

big chunks of subject matter like that yeah that's why the the chinese version is not as good as the english version like when people come to you i always say if you can read english read the original one because the chinese version is is definitely watered down what what is your like favorite i mean if we could say that there was one what was like your favorite rule of the 12 um i

I think it's not one rule. I think it's the underlying perspective that the world is consisted of chaos and order. And they related that to the yin and yang. And actually helped me get a better understanding of what yin and yang means, right? And how there's like this constant switching between yin and yang. And also the, you know, the boundary between the black and white order.

Like that's the path of life and that's the Tao and that's the meaning of life there, that you're always stepping one foot in the chaos and one foot in the order and you're the active agent that's always balancing the two elements of life. That's like a very, very interesting, like a fundamental way of looking at reality. Yeah, it reconciles.

like this, this tension. Yes. And I think it's really interesting. Then I, then I wonder, right? Like, I just thought of this, like, so what if like, you know, China is, is,

Like, what if China and the US are basically like yin and yang somehow? Without defining which one is yin and which one is yang, right? And then it's like, okay, like, who's the agent, right? That's going to put their... Maybe it's the honest drink. No, I'm just kidding. Who's the agent that's going to, like, bridge them together? Because then, like, it's such a perfect metaphor. There's, like, neither side's right or wrong. Absolutely. But, and...

Depending on the situation, depending on the time, maybe we need to listen to one more than the other in that moment. I think it's more like each country has got its own yin and yang, and that we have to do our own balancing and reconciliation. For me personally, because I don't get into politics too much, because my take on this is that I would rather spend my time trying to help and change one person than...

or an entire political system. It's more effective. Even though it's one person, like it's one person after another, I still think it's more effective than, you know, propaganda and trying to- Oh, for sure. It's much more rewarding because you can actually get to that one person. Yes. The transformation is more real to me. It's more solid to me. Yeah. Yeah. There was one rule. It's the rule, I think it's rule number two or three. It's,

Treat yourself like you are someone responsible for helping. - Right, right, it's the second, rule number two. - Right? Because I feel like we look at ourselves, I mean, I think some people view themselves as someone that needs to be helped by others, right? And that's more like the victim mentality. And then others might not even feel they need the help. And to view yourself as like this third person, how would I help that person?

I'd move mountains to try to help that person. But we don't always view ourselves like that. And it goes back to this idea of self-neglect that we were talking about too. So I think that line really resonated with me. I don't know how you felt like when you were reading that chapter. I think this is the...

This is the great benefits of cultural exchanges where individualistic values really helped because the Chinese culture is collectivistic. So people don't think in terms of individuals. So they don't think in terms of

the relationship I have with myself is also an interpersonal relationship. Like people don't think that way. They think- They don't even think of it as a- It's like so far away. Yeah. No, they don't even think of it as a relationship because like, how can I have a relationship with myself? That doesn't even make sense. You know, like, yeah. Because Chinese, like for Chinese, their identity is defined by the relationship with others. So you're, to a large extent, you're defined by how people see you and how people respond to you. But yourself is not-

a very important factor there, right? So that's the collectivistic, the more traditional Chinese view of the self. But what he was talking about is very individualistic. Like your self is also a person and you have this relationship with this person and the way you treat himself or herself

It's going to be very, very impactful on your well-being. So yeah, I agree with you in the sense that that's a very important message. And from that chapter, one thing that especially was memorable to me was how he was saying that

We're the only person who knows everything about ourselves, especially our dark sides, our flaws, and everything we can hate, we can possibly hate about ourselves. So it actually takes a lot of effort to love ourselves. Because you know this person, you know he's such an asshole sometimes. You know he has all these selfish impulses. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have all these selfish impulses. You have all these...

terrible flaws. And, and we have like so many excuses to hate ourselves. But then what he was saying was, even though you know all this, you still should try to help yourself and love yourself. And that takes effort, but you should still try to do it. Or even more of a reason to help you because like with all these flaws, you need the help. Yeah. Yeah. Because when other people love you, um,

they only see part of you. They don't see like all the darknesses in you, right? So it's easier for them to love you, but for you to love yourself, it's a more difficult challenge, but that's something you got to try your best. So, yeah. - Yeah. I think before we started recording, because I just want to stay on this whole Jordan Peterson thing for a second.

Before we started recording, you said you have mixed feelings about him. The way you feel about Jordan Peterson is very complicated. Can you elaborate on that? I think what he talks about in the context of psychotherapy and personal growth is very, very helpful. But politically, the stuff he talks about, if there's one thing I disagree with him, it's how he's making enemies.

with certain groups in certain camps. - He's very polarizing. - He's very polarizing. And that's something I disagree because like for me as a therapist, I see different people all the time. People who are different from me in every single aspect. But that's okay because if I try my best to be friendly, to be helpful, to be supportive,

Even though that person is very different, he can still grow. He can still live a better life. So you can almost say being a therapist, our instinct is not aggression or criticism, but love and support. That's my belief about how we can make the world better. But

Obviously, Jordan Peterson is not... But it's very antagonistic. He's very antagonistic. Is that some yin and yang stuff, though? Like, is that, like, where... I mean, I myself, like, feel like I've gone through some, you know, upbringing where, like, I feel like this just being loving and supporting and nurturing. Like, to me, like, I love that core value. But, like, is that enough? Like, do we need...

to challenge people sometimes? Do we need to put tension into the system, like for positive change to happen as well? Because like, if you just do, if you go to the extreme, like maybe there's a lot of positive, like at the individual level, yes. But when you look at the whole system collectively, do we need to put some like shocks into it so that the overall thing also improves? Yes. But I do think that,

Once I saw he started swearing at Justin Trudeau on Twitter, I think he's gone a little too far. Like, it's not... I think his ego has taken over. Yes. That's what it is. He lost himself. It's okay to challenge, but it's like he's taken it, like, he's crossed the line, is what you're saying. Well, he's reached a level of fame now. I mean, to some extent, it has to get to your head, right? A little bit. Yeah. At that level of fame, right? I feel because we can't escape our own experiences. So, what...

how he might be acting could also just be a reaction to a lot of the attacks he gets. I think it just speaks to the fact that how like social media is this uncontrollable monster where whoever gets into it, like you will lose control even over yourself, over how you think and how you feel. Because now that I think about it, if I was put in his position,

I'll probably, I don't know how I'm going to react. I don't think if I can still stick to the love and support principle. I would also probably be very defensive because at that point, when you're reading all that criticism, you think the whole world's coming down at you. Yeah, you think everybody hates you. Well, if your survival is being threatened and now it's not like necessarily physical survival like it was 10,000 years ago, but it's like survival in the sense of like,

who you are, your identity, your reputation, like all these things that we value now as our currency for like being human and that's at stake, then you're gonna fight back with everything. And so while we're seeing this as like, right, he's extreme or left, like, I mean, he's, you know, if he's being attacked in this way, he's like gonna, you know, he's gonna defend himself.

And he wasn't this antagonistic and intense. But I do... I'm imagining how... Because, you know, he has anxiety issues. He has depression. He has all the immune system issues. So I'm just imagining...

you know, we have this Chinese saying of 树大招风, right? If you're a huge tree, then you're, more wind's going to blow into you or something like that. I think it's just the fame. Like, the human brain is not designed to withstand criticisms and judgments from 10 million people. So I think he's,

Probably just, you know, like mentally he's taking it a lot. And so I do worry a little bit about his mental health and everything.

And maybe what we are seeing is just like how people react in a very, very stressed situation. But like before that, like he's definitely more chilled and he's definitely not this antagonistic. So I feel sad for him actually. Like he does have fame and he makes a lot of money, but there's always a trade-off, right? It's almost like you see all these other celebrities or famous people kind of –

you know, fall down from their, their mountain peak. Right. Because of fame and all that stuff. And you're like, Oh no, but he, but, but Jordan Peterson, Peterson is a famous psychologist and, Oh, he, she should be strong. You know, he should be able to withstand it. Nobody is, we're all human, right? We're all human. Nobody is immune. That's a good point. Yes. Well, this, this also connects to another fascinating, um, topic we we've discussed previously on this show too, is the idea of social media. And you were just mentioning that. Um,

I mean, there's no crazier place in the world for social media than China right now, I feel. So how, what's your view on... Wait, why do you say that? No, wait, say that again? No crazier place for social media than China? Why? I would... Just the sheer kind of reach and population and the way I feel a lot of kids here are

more consumed by social media and vulnerable to the effects of social media here are, I think, are at the top, like a youth vulnerability index. I think China would probably, obviously I don't have any real evidence to back this up. It's just a sense I get that China would probably be amongst the top of the world in terms of that index.

That makes sense to me in one way, right? So I get how you're sort of framing it. Because the way it first came across, I'm like, no, the US would be way more crazy. Because just the shit, the content itself. So from that perspective, I can totally see where you're coming from. Yeah, I think we're talking about two different things under the social media umbrella. Because I would agree, I think if you were to looking at content

Craziness. The craziness of the content. I think, yeah, much crazier in the States because there's not the same type of- It's the States because there's some crazy mofos out there. Yeah, there's crazy mofos and anyone can just post anything basically over there, right? So yeah, totally agree there. But there's a whole side of, you don't have to have crazy content for social media to

to have an unhealthy negative effect on you, right? It could just be very innocent, normal things. But I think the amount in which it consumes your life

If you're not getting exposed to as many things outside of social media, and then you have social media, so then it's like the proportion of impact on you is so much greater here, potentially. Maybe, yeah. So, I mean, I want to throw this over to Steve in terms of, you know, here in China, what do you see that social media has a role to play in terms of the whole mental health discussion, I guess?

I think the first thing that pops into my mind is cyberbullying. And people are really, really vulnerable to that. And also how social media exposed ourselves to all sorts of human flaws and craziness and dysfunctions in people's minds. Because when you're online, when you're anonymous, you can display whatever that's inside your personality.

And because we talked about how like the Chinese culture sort of promotes neglect, right? And neglect can breed a lot of dysfunctions. And I think nowadays what we see on Chinese social media is the result of that. A lot of people are neglected. So the parts of themselves become more violence or evil in a way. And once there's something...

if somebody comes across as deserving attacks and criticisms, then it's all crazy. It's like game over for you, right? Yeah, you'll get so much shit online that it pushes people to commit suicide. Have you had clients that you found were a little bit too caught up in the social media world that it literally affected their day-to-day?

During the lockdown last year. But that was not like on cyberbullying. It's more like, you know, people are watching stuff and reading stuff and they were experiencing what we call secondhand trauma. So you're being traumatized by other people's trauma. Like that happens. And also how...

because our culture is more collectivistic. So we're raised to be more conscious of other people's needs, how they see ourselves, how they judge us. And I think maybe culturally, the Chinese are probably more vulnerable to being on social media because then you're receiving so much response from other people, right? Like it's difficult to say, no, that's bullshit. I don't care what you think. Yeah. I have one thing I want to bring up. I brought this up once before in a previous episode, but...

I'm going to speak specifically from my field. So I work in filmmaking, right? And there's a site that people share their videos and stuff like that that they've done. And it's all... And you tag what you did. You're a director, you're a cinematographer, whatever, right? And it's mainly... The main user base are other creators. Now, what I found very interesting is comparatively, I guess the... This site is called Ximpiancang. So the...

closest equivalent would be in the West would be like a Vimeo where you also can be like, I'm the cinematographer. You can put yourself out there. Yeah. Like your work. Yeah. The point, what I'm trying to get at is, um, you'll find that on the comment section, obviously, you know, you have some great works out there and people will be like, wow, that was amazing. You are the man, all that stuff. But you get so much criticism, um,

So you get these couch critics, all these weird critiques that if you go on Vimeo where you also critique and you don't really critique, but you leave comments to other people's works, it's always like, oh, amazing job. If you don't have anything good to say, you don't say it. You don't really leave a comment on work.

Artistic endeavors do not get critiqued in a negative way because it's artistic. It could be an artistic choice. It could be just their abilities, they're growing, so you want to be supportive of them. But here, it's like these couch critics just come out in troves, just like, oh, that was ridiculous. Why would you even do that? That's horrible. Just ridiculous. Sounds like you're speaking from experience. No, no, no. Actually, I...

I'm not going to defend myself. I'm not going to fall into your trap. Okay, Jordan Peterson. This is all just a long-winded way of how we try to defend its own work. I'm going to be honest with you. I actually go on other people's and defend them. So you're a hero now. Virtue signaling now. So now you came from victim to hero. That was quick. There's no winning here. We're going through all the stages of neglect right now.

There's no winning here. But I do want to bring it up. So why? Why do you think that is happening more here? I think people are just doing that for emotional release and catharsis. Yeah, because I read a couple of articles on cyberbullying and why people are trolling others online and saying evil and hurtful stuff. And they actually did interviews of those people hiding behind those anonymous IDs. And also, I...

Sometimes when I received very hurtful messages, I would message them back. I'll be like, hey, do you want to talk a little bit? I want to get to know you. And then sometimes people will apologize. They'll be like, oh, I'm just having a bad day. So my way of thinking about this is at least whenever I try to talk to them or the couple of articles that I saw, the reason people are doing it is mostly because their life sucks and they have problems.

no social support and they're lonely and they're in pain, but they still want to feel connected to the world, right? But how do you feel connected? You talk to others, but if you say nice things to other people, nine out of 10 times, you will get no response. But if you say shit, if you say terrible things to people, nine out of 10 times, you will get some sort of fight back, some sort of justification or some sort of explanation. And that's how you get responses from other people. So it's almost like

People are neglected on the collective level that the only way you get attention is to hurt others so they can fight back. And then you will feel, oh, so I do exist. I exist. People are acknowledging my existence. And if you're like, I mean, if your life is not

So kind to you, which I mean, God, like this whole world is full of people like that. Right. Like, I mean, where it's really out of their control. Like if I have a bad day, like, I mean, it's just because my expectations are probably, you know, I like, there's no reason I'm just having a bad day because of me. Right. Like, cause like I'm lucky.

But I have to imagine there's so many people in the world where they have bad days just because like you have to really work hard to have a good day. Like you don't have enough to eat or you don't have a job or like, I mean, all kinds of shit, right? You have health issues. It's like, how can you be positive when the rest of your life is so difficult? Isn't the easiest way to kind of make yourself feel better is to lash out so that there's someone feeling worse than you, right? Like if you're feeling like shit and someone just put this fucking awesome video on,

I'm gonna be like, oh, your video sucks. Yeah. Right? Like,

Like, cause I'm like, I can't like, I'm like really hurting. So I want to put you down so that like, as bad as I'm hurting, there's another person. I know I'm not the worst. But there's a shared pain then. There's a sense of shared pain. It's shared pain too. Yeah. You sound like you're speaking from experience. Like I'm the one that goes onto our own site and I'm like, yeah, the host, the lead host of this show sucks. Oh, you're the guy. Yeah. I'm the guy. I like the co-host.

He's also Andy, so... No, that's an inside joke. Yeah, it's an inside joke. One of the fans. Shout out to Andy if you're listening. We know you're listening. Eric definitely knows you're listening. This goes back to kind of the whole social media conversation we're having, right? And I get the feeling and my concern is not only for...

Chinese people in general in this country, but you know, I'm a father now. I'm raising a kid here. My concern is I feel, and I could be dead wrong about this. Let me just say that first. But I get the sense that the Chinese youth as a whole here are more emotionally vulnerable. And that's not to say the youth are not emotionally vulnerable in America. They are very much so.

But I think in America, the culture is more brash, right? There's more ego. There's more individuality. There's more, I'm a content creator. I want to put myself out there. So you kind of know how to emotionally prepare yourself for feedback. Now, obviously, sometimes it gets out of hand and people suffer from that too. But I don't feel there's that same sense here.

obviously have exceptions, but on a whole, I feel people are more vulnerable here. And it goes back to what, even what you're saying in terms of that also connects to, you know, the historical trauma, the generational trauma, the lack of emotional like connection that a lot of Chinese people grow up with and that all cascades and compounds. And when you add the fuel of social media,

I think it's really easy for probably a lot of Chinese people to lose themselves in it and also lose that sense of reality going back to what we're talking about and really let it spiral out of control where psychologically it seems like it could have a much harsher toll on them here. I think if you compare the Chinese and the American young people,

They're facing like two different sets of risks and issues. My perception for the U.S. population, I'm not an expert, but I do think like the issue of drugs and substance abuse and also gun violence, those are like very real risks. I think for the Chinese, what I can say though is that I do observe this trend where young people's minds are becoming more and more fragile because the suicide rate is actually going up.

You're talking about here in China? In China, compared to, let's say, people in my generation. We do feel that young people in China nowadays are more fragile to some extent. And they're more emotionally vulnerable. They are more likely to have mental health issues. I think there was a report that came out in 2011.

- 2021 or, yeah, 2021 or 22, that basically says the percentage of a teenager suffering from severe depression is about 12.7% in China. - That's a lot. - 12.7% severe depression, meaning suicidal. - That's a lot. - That's a lot. - That's enormous. - Yeah, that's a national average. I'm not sure how accurate it is, but it's roughly-- - Where does it come from, what study?

I can give you the reference later, but I don't have it. Is it an international study or is it domestic? No, it's a national study. National study. I think it's like a...

It's a report on basically Chinese young people's mental health. So it was a Chinese study. Yeah, it's a Chinese study. What's interesting is because I was going to say, Justin, where are you getting this feeling from? Because I know that that's a big talking point in the States where the young generation is so fragile right now. It's like so fragile and the suicide rates are like, you know, through the roof. Depression is through the roof. Anxiety is through the roof in the States. So that's why I was thinking like, is it...

Is it really though? Like, is it maybe it's just like a global thing? Like again, I could be wrong, but it's just like everything that, a lot of things we've been talking about, I just feel build for more vulnerability. Also, you add on the lack of like, you know, talk, speaking out about mental health here is still relatively taboo. It's gotten, it's getting much better. I think it's trending in the right direction for sure. But compared to the States, you know, talking about mental health here is still less of,

I think a comfortable thing for a lot of people. And you add onto that, even what you said in the beginning is there's less resources to help people here in terms of mental health. So all that, you add all that, I think the vulnerability is pretty great here. I think like we have to separate these things. Like, so on one hand, like you're highlighting some of the factors that would,

make these things more prominent here. And at the same time, we have to be careful of like not assigning like probabilities to things, right? Because in the US, like how are we saying there's like all kinds of different factors. But if we, but so if your point is let's take a China lens to it,

- I'm just saying that's my concern. I don't know the accuracy of what I'm saying. - But either way, it's valid. - But I'm very concerned about it. - 'Cause in the US, you could make the same, you could even make a more prominent argument. But for the sake of us being in China and Steve having the expertise on this, it makes sense to take a China lens on it. - I think it's like vulnerability is the result. But different countries go through a different path, but the same result is vulnerabilities.

I think for the Chinese, for the younger generations, I think a prominent issue is actually the neglect and also consequently young people have much less self-determination and free will and freedom.

and psychological autonomy for themselves. And once you're like that, and once you're put in a stressful situation of being academically successful, then you're more likely to break, right? I think for the kids or the young generations in the US, they probably...

This was probably not a big issue. So they have other issues. They have other issues that result in fragility or vulnerability. But for the Chinese, I think we have this label called 空心病, so empty-hearted syndrome, which basically means that the young kids

In China, they were brought up always obeying to commands, orders from teachers and parents that they have no hearts, quote-unquote hearts. They don't know what they want. They don't know who they are. They don't know who they are, and they don't know where they want to go. Like when I was telling you guys about my nephew who's nine years old,

He was always being told which toys to play with. And imagine going through a life like that, everything being told, everything being laid out in front of you. You have no choices. You have no opportunity to exercise your freedom, to exercise your judgments. That's crazy in terms of psychological development. So that's how a lot of kids in China, they end up having this experience

this, this situation? Well, I'm curious, like, okay, like two things, right? So like one, so for one thing, like China, like culture, I mean, I don't know, you know, I'm not an expert, but like, I mean, it's has thousands of years of, of legacy and history. And so it survived for a long time, you know, maybe more so like contiguously than a lot of cultures. So if there's like all these factors in it, like how come like China is like survived for so long? And the second question is like,

a lot of these psychological, like these therapy, like all this stuff, like, I mean, it seems like it's, a lot of it was pioneered like in the West, right? Like, I mean, like Freud, Adler, Jung, and then in the US, I mean, there's a whole, I mean, there's just so many, right? It seems like they're the leaders there. But like what I've taken away from our conversation is that there's gotta be this, you know, local knowledge of like the exact problems. Cause like if I can imagine like for you and your issues, yeah, maybe like a US government

but

psychotherapists could get you to a certain point. But if they had someone like you helping, it would be so much faster. So like the questions are, one is like, how has China culture survived for so long if there's all these inherent issues? And then the second one is, are there like, is there like Chinese- Chinese equivalent? Yeah, like is there research done by like Chinese psychologists that are pioneering the field in ways that are coming up with the equivalent of positive psychology or transactional analysis, but like,

moving it in directions that are particularly relevant for here but on a scientific level because like why do we have to go to like the u.s like jordan peterson for instance like we take inspiration but like who are these people in china right right right um i think the first question is is a really good one because i think the chinese culture is more top down

So that's why the survival, because as a nation or as an ethnic group, if your culture is very top-down, it's very controlling, then as a group, it's very easy to mobilize. Like, let's say, for example, COVID. Yeah, you're led.

A lot of people here actually felt proud about how our government handled things. Oh, yeah. Well, we did. Yeah, they're like, this is very effective. Look at the world. Because we were completely normal for those couple years. Yes, yes. While the rest of the world was, you know, going crazy. Exactly. So it's more top-down, so it's easier to mobilize everybody collectively. But the price we pay for that is individuals are neglected. And sometimes individuals are just numbers. So...

Which one is better? I have no answer because the whole COVID situation did show how when there's like a group crisis, there's like a massive crisis. Maybe this is the better way to deal with it. So historically, we go through a lot of challenges, existential threats. Maybe this is the better way. But, you know, when we're at peaceful times, when we have to take care of ourselves, then we...

will realize this is you know this is difficult for individual so like I don't know it's complicated it's very very complicated but it's a very it's a valid question it deserves a lot of attention do you guys watch the film Wandering Moon?

A Wandering Earth. Yeah, I want to watch it. The second one? First and second. I haven't seen either. I want to. That's like on my number one on the list. I didn't see the new one though. I think that's a perfect illustration of the top-down system. How so? Well, you have this strong government that puts everything

all the resources into building something and that saves humanity even at the cost of a lot of individual lives i think that's that's like a very good uh reflection of uh the political mentality here yeah and that's so interesting because like

you know, you have hints of that and elements of that, right? Because like in the US, it's like, there is this often like military theme in the story. And it's like the whole country gets together, World War II, you know, and they industrialize and then they save the world and all that stuff, right? But like most American movies, they still protect the individual at the expense of the whole government.

So you constantly have that conflict. It's like, even like the freaking Avengers, it's like, okay, like Thanos wanted to do certain things, but like, I'm going to protect one person. And then what they, the way they twist the narrative is that ultimately saving that one person saved all of humanity. Yeah, yeah. Like would have gotten to the, whatever the villain was doing.

Can I make that's funny. I was thinking saving private Ryan. Yeah. That's also exactly like you never leave one person behind. Yeah. And also like to your second question about like local knowledge. I do think

a very clear difference in terms of people's clients' expectations is that for the Western clients, they probably think more in terms of I want to grow myself personally. For the Chinese clients,

more often their need for, their goals in therapy is to fit better into their social roles so that they can perform better as a mom, as a daughter, as a worker. Like fix the relationships. Yeah, so their identity, their self-perception is still defined by their relationship with others or their positions in society, not so much as me as a person, you know? So, yeah.

For me, as a Chinese psychotherapist, I think what I can do better is I have a better understanding of their background, of the history, of the environment they were brought up in. Like some of my clients, they're from the US or UK, like they're Chinese overseas, but they will see like Caucasian or other therapists from other cultures. And they will tell me that it takes much, much longer for them to understand what I'm saying. So I think the cultural familiarity, I think that's a strength there.

I think this may be the reason why our industry is growing faster in larger cities because people are coming in from all over the place. And they left their families. They left their support network. They're here by themselves. So they're all here whatsoever for it.

It's a more atomic society where individuals are more like atoms. They're just floating in space. Because of the traditional Chinese societies, we're all embedded in the very large family. So everything you need psychologically comes from the family, right? You don't need outside people to help you with your mental health. You have all these relatives who you're...

who you can call on for support but that system is breaking down in modern era in big cities because now like look at Shanghai it's a very capitalistic city right so we're used to outsourcing everything to outsiders commercial means yeah also I mean I've

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding, the idea of psychotherapy or psychiatry or anything like that in China, traditionally speaking, is only when you really go off the deep end. Like, you've gone crazy. Like, you've done some really crazy shit. So you have to go see mental health. Like when it's like crisis mode. Yeah. Am I correct? Yeah.

I think this points to a very deep question of how the differences in Western and Eastern philosophies, because for the West, they have this mind-body dualism. For the Chinese, it's like the mind and the body, the health of your heart and your body is not so much separated. So in Chinese medicine...

they don't talk so much about targeting mental health issues specifically. It's usually the body that's out of balance. So it's a more holistic kind of perception. So for Chinese tradition, it's more difficult to talk about mental health, mental issues specifically because there's no language for that. One example is how there's this...

You know the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual in DSM. That's the manual for diagnosis of all the mental health issues. It's like the Bible for all the issues. Yes. So in that book, there is a small part that lists all the cultural specific mental disorders in different cultures. And one of them that's only found in China is called Shenjin Shuai Ruo.

right? And it's basically depression, but it's a somatic form of depression commonly found in middle-aged women in China. And the complaints are usually stomachache, dizziness, and feeling low energy. So it's like, it's depression, but the

It's like physical elements. It's a physical element. And if a middle-aged Chinese woman tell people, I have depression, people will think, you're just unhappy, right? But if they say, oh, my stomach's not well, then people will take it seriously. They'll be like, oh, so let's take you to a doctor and see the, you know, take you to a hospital to see a doctor. So it's like the...

It's almost like the expression of illness in China is expected to be less... The mental issues and the physical issues are...

Forever linked. Are kind of linked and mixed together that it's actually easier for people to understand. So I think this is the reason why in China it's more difficult to talk about mental health issues. People are just not used to separating the two. And like there might be like some history to it that like I'm not super familiar with, but there's like a whole tradition. That's why like the Chinese medicine thing feels like more holistic. Yeah.

Like it's, it's feels a little bit more mystical. It's like, Oh, all this stuff is related to this balance and the yin yang. It's because there's this mental, like psychological aspect that's embedded in the body. But if you think about it the other way in the Western culture, like the body is the body. So yeah. Right. It's not related to your mind. It's like, you got some shit wrong with you. Then it's a virus or a bacteria. There's some scientific thing, but the reality is that maybe there is a mental element to it. And so like,

You got like, again, like I think we have to look at like Chinese and Western stuff together to kind of see that the cultural aspects heavily impact the implementation strategy of how they treat things. And so there probably isn't one best approach. There's like ways you can take from both, but we like to think of it as like, there's a dominant winning strategy. Like one is better than the other.

That statement can be said about a lot of things in the world today. You know, politics, culturally, aesthetically, you know, everything, you know. But we're trying to figure out the best, the winning approach. But why should there be a winning approach? There's no one way. You know, it's interesting. Right before you came here, I was just talking with Justin about personally wanting to find a therapist, right? Yeah.

And specifically saying... You found one. Well, it was funny because I was specifically saying is that I don't want to find a traditional Western therapist. I want to find somebody that is Chinese... You say dual language. ...but speaks English, you know, that can understand both sides. Because what I would share, I'm sure, only somebody that understands local Chinese culture, right? But also because my main language is English...

I can communicate correctly. You know what I mean? And I think it's, it's so interesting what you were, what we're talking about right now, even when the universe provides in mysterious ways. I'm going to call you later. I'm going to talk to you later. I was trying to butter him up and like, Steve's like, um, well, I actually don't handle that. Steve's like, I'm very selective about my clients. Yeah. I take back everything I said earlier. Um, no, but Steve, while we have you on your, on the show, because, um, I just thought of this, right? Well, you want to heal yourself right now?

No, no, no. It's a little bit... His stomach actually hurts right now. Justin's stomach hurts. He's a middle-aged woman. Sanjing Shirong. Okay. I want to pivot a little bit, right? And only because this is a topic we frequently talk about on this show. And we always talk about our perspective living here in China as ABCs, right? American-born Chinese...

And one of the things we talk about from that perspective is that we get this growing anxiety of we're kind of not really welcome fully anywhere, like whether it's America or here, because we're not fully really anywhere. We get a certain worry that maybe our status here as American born Chinese is less and less of a good thing. And I'm curious from your perspective,

how you see that and if you feel that same way about us. - The past couple of years, during the COVID, a lot of people ran, they say run, right? Which basically means they ran to other countries 'cause they were not happy with how things are done here.

And people were asking if I wanted to do the same thing. Because I had permanent residence of Canada back then. I gave it up. And they were like, do you want to go back? I'm like, maybe, maybe not. I don't know where I can go. Like, I was born in Chengdu. So I have the option of going back to Chengdu. But I don't know if I can go back there. Because my mentality is so different now. Culturally and mentally, I think I'm too different. But if I want to go back to Canada, no. If I want to stay...

in Shanghai, it's not my city. So I don't know if it's the same feeling that you have, but it's like- But culturally, you feel a little bit more comfortable here in Shanghai. Is that what you're trying to say? What I'm trying to say is like, I don't know where I belong. You feel like you have the whole- It feels the same way as Justin. So you're saying like, okay, we're ABC. We feel out of place, nowhere we're like, and then he's like relating. Yeah, yeah. I'm saying the same thing, yes. I'm kind of stuck in between everything

that there's no one thing that I can really relate to. So it's the same feeling. And I'm guessing it's not just for ABCs in Shanghai. I'm guessing it's for a lot of people because we live in a society where we have very high mobility. So people move from one place to another. Like, for example, if you come from a small town in China, now you move to Shanghai and...

Where do you go? You're already accustomed to this urban life in Shanghai and it's all fancy. You get coffee and cocktails and stuff like that. You can't go back, but you don't belong to Shanghai. This is not your city. You don't have anything here. You don't have a house here. You don't have your families here. So I think a lot of people feel stuck and out of place. And this also contributes to the emotional vulnerability here.

So I have no solutions. I have no answers because I'm going through the same thing. But I do think this is kind of the era of the time. The general sense, the general feeling of everybody at this time. This reminds me a little bit. So when you think about the geopolitical tensions...

Certainly, like we're reading this in the media all the time and it's like the last few years have just been brutal. It's been really, really brutal. And we're reading mostly Western media, so it can be really, really one-sided. And we're also getting the perspective how the Chinese government is reacting. So what we're seeing all the time is this polarization between the two governments.

And so I can't help but think that we're impacted by that. Like we're shaped by that. And then we wonder, it's like, well, if the two governments hate each other, what does that mean for us? Like, I see this a lot. And like, just, there's a lot of, I mean, even in work environments, like, you know, anyone who works for,

Certain types of places that may be where the business gets done on both sides. Like, it's affecting a lot of people. But also, this goes back to what we talk about with social media, because I feel like a lot of it is probably coming from social media that you're seeing. And even me, like, when I'm just flipping through news articles in China, right? Or posts. And there's something with, like, you know, Westerners. And then you look at comments, and it's always now. Now.

negative it's like freaking foreigners or this that you see some pretty bad language right yeah that makes us people like us be like oh there's some batches happening but then day to day in shanghai it's contextual too yeah and also uh this reminds me of uh you know the xin pianchang website you talked about how there were people trolling in the comment section i think it's the same thing i think um

Like shitting on Lao Wai is just another way that people found that is safe for catharsis. They're in pain. They want to find some targets online to criticize. Like the low-hanging fruit to blame. Yes, yes. So I would say just don't take it too personally. Like whatever you see, whether it's about your nationality, whether it's about your job...

or how you look or anything online. I basically distrust everything I see on social media. Like the way my policy of handling like comments, hostile comments is that I only...

I only acknowledge or I only read comments that are sent by people who actually know me or who have a good knowledge of who I am. If I read a comment and I feel like this person doesn't know me at all, then I just ignore it. And then we're internalizing those and we're falling into that same trap of like,

of, you know, just any kid that would be on social media just like being cyber bullied or just getting into that world where your reality starts distorting around you. Yeah, it's like, it's mostly for people, for people's emotional catharsis. But when you're in pain, you could scream anything. And those screams, you should not

take them too seriously. It's just people screaming. That's good advice. It's like there's all these rooms. I mean, when you look at social interaction, there's the physical environments and then now there's this whole digital environment, right? But if you just view them as rooms, there's millions of rooms in the world and there's all kinds of stuff going on in each room. And in most of the rooms, it's like good shit.

And then they're like, but the ones that are like, there's bad shit in the room, like a, like virtual room or whatever it is. These somehow get chosen by the algorithms to be like prominent on the map. Like they get like, they rise to the bottom, like a top of the, of every list. And so people just want to walk into these rooms and we want to blame social media. Like don't blame social media. Like,

Just don't walk into the fucking room because you know there's fucking bad shit. It's like basically a room full of doo-doo and poo. Yeah, but social media is a little different because the room comes to you. Right. That's what I'm saying. It's like, but don't blame social media in the sense that like the poo in the room. Yeah, it like they...

They made it like more prominent, but like it's because they created this environment where everyone in the room, the norm in that room, the expectation is to throw poo around. But we just have to realize that there's plenty of places in the world that don't have this. That aren't throwing poo around. Yeah. And so just don't walk in that poo. Zero feces. Right? Just don't walk in the room. Like it'll be,

put right at the top of your list, but it's like, shut your computer, walk down the street, go into the restaurant, and then there's like normal people. Find a good room. Find a good room. I think it's biologically, people respond to fear and anger way more than happiness and intimacy and connection. So the algorithms obviously reflect the human reality there. How do you think you've changed since doing your podcast? I'm definitely more open to...

talk about like my own issues, my vulnerabilities, just like you guys did. You share a lot on yours? Yes. Yes. I mean, I started off writing a lot about my issues and traumas and my family's, and that's very refreshing for people. Cause, cause a lot of people, a lot of people in my field, they always, they're always intellectualizing. So they're not really talking so much about themselves. Uh, and there's also the kind of the, the professional expectations that you should remain anonymous from the public and

But for me, it's like, no, I want to make people feel more connected and understood. So I actually write a lot about my struggles with my parents and stuff like that. And on the podcast, it's the same thing. When I started doing it, at first I was kind of hesitant because

But then the more I talk about myself, the more I see in the comment section that people will say, I appreciate so much that you're sharing this because I never heard anybody talking about this. But your issues or your pain, your struggles are exactly the same. And I feel so relieved. I'm not the only person facing these issues. Yeah. Yeah. That's powerful in and of itself is to feel like you're not alone. Yeah. Right? Because one of like, I think the toughest feelings, emotions,

can be loneliness. Yeah. I think we underrate that. It's better to suffer together than to suffer alone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Steve, this was an amazing conversation. You got to come back sometime, man. We got to continue this. All right. I will. Yeah. It's also very interesting for me because I don't talk about these issues in English too much. You're a fucking rock star, man. Yeah. It was awesome. What are some ways people can connect with you if they want to connect with you? Yeah.

If they listen to Chinese podcasts, if they understand Chinese, they can find Steve Shuo on YouTube, on Weibo, on Xiao Yuzhou, basically all the major podcasting platforms. This was an awesome conversation. I think what you're doing is great. It's really important. And I really do hope you and Howie get connected later on. But that's another conversation. What was that term you used, Steve? Like reconstructive?

Yeah, reconstructing. Yeah, okay. That's the one that Howie needs is a reconstructive therapy. We all need help. He has to be reconstructed as a human. Oh, and you don't? I know, right? Of all people. Of all people. Dude, I've reconstructed myself already. Steve sees that, don't you?

Again, Steve, thank you for coming on the show, man. This was awesome. Awesome. All right. That was awesome. All right. So good. I'm Justin. And I'm Howie. And I'm Reconstructed. Be well. Be good. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace.