#126. Cyrus Janssen: Divided We Lose
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying this show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. We are powered by Nespresso. We got the Nespresso virtual pop coffee machine in our studio, and it is our drink of choice before recording this episode. Howie, this was a very special one. This was different because it was a last-minute emergency podcast we had to record yesterday.

And we've never done that before. It was like Avengers Assemble, literally getting the text message a couple hours ago, being like, let's get to the studio. We have a special guest coming in right now. No, this one was fun. And he came directly from the Pudong airport. He literally...

just arrived in China and first stop right to our studio. Yeah. And I mean, truth be told, we're both fans of his YouTube channel. He always brings in nuances to different talking points that we like to harp on on our show a lot as well. Yeah. You know, sometimes to some people a little too often, but we can't help it given where we live and where we are. And

All the stuff and narratives are circling around in media these days. Yeah. Our guest is a political analyst, YouTuber, and social media influencer with over a million followers online. His videos share cultural and geopolitical insights into China for a global audience. His mission is to create more nuanced discussion and ultimately create more understanding between the world and China, pushing back against a lot of the mainstream Western narratives.

And he's really tall. I didn't know he was that tall. Like, I had a sense from his YouTube videos that he's probably tall, but you don't, you never get the full scale. I thought he was going to be short. Did you really? No, I didn't. He's always sitting in his videos. But anyway, without further ado, please give it up for Cyrus Jansen. Cheers, Cyrus. All right, gentlemen. Mmm.

The Honest Drink. It's so awesome to see you again. You know, it's funny. We were just saying that, you know, we happen to have a lot of guests previously, now including you, that's either on their way to the airport to leave China or just arriving and coming straight to our studio. Yeah. It's not the first time. There's been a couple of guests now, right? Okay, well, let's give the listeners a little bit of context. Cyrus, you literally just came straight from the airport, from Pudong Airport. I did. You brought your luggage with you. I did. This is literally your first stop arriving in China. Yeah.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's well, it's an honor that you guys reached out and I had such a great conversation with you. And I just I just love what you guys are doing. And, you know, and I knew where you were. I knew the studio and just the you know, let's sit down, have a glass of whiskey. Let's have a nice chat, a nice conversation. And, you know, the long form content is great because I know a lot of my viewers on YouTube, they enjoy these long podcasts as well.

And I think what's just really fun is, I mean, this is really serendipitous for me to come back to China right now. It's been a long time in the making. I've worked very hard to make this trip possible. And it's just, I'm just so excited because, I mean, this is really the town, the city that I really grew up in. I always say that I came to Shanghai as a boy at age 23 and at age 30, I left as a man. I spent seven years in Shanghai and I grew up here. I mean, this is really where I, you know, I was, I grew up in Florida, but,

for me, I mean, this was my first big job after university. This is where I bought my first house. This is where I met my wife. Like a lot of my big accomplishments in life and kind of what got me started in my life all came from Shanghai. Yeah. Yeah. The moment you walked in the door, we can like, like Howie and I could feel like your energy already.

We can tell you're really excited to be back. I'm so excited. We don't know if it's just because you got off the plane, you know, you're still running that adrenaline from traveling. I tell you, the adrenaline is going to be running the whole time I'm here because it's just, you know, what's difficult is, you know, you have that 10-year multiple entry visa, you know, as American citizens. And so I'm, you know, trying to get back to China. And then, of course, then, you know, the whole world changed, right? The whole world changed in March, you know, in early 2020. And immediately, you know, all of a sudden, China's cut off.

and we can't get back to China. And it's kind of cut off from the world. And I think that's, when you look at China's history, in times of when it has been cut off from the world, that's when China doesn't do good. And same thing. I mean, if we have a lot of Americans and Westerners that are not understanding China, having the border closed is not a good thing. We need people coming here, experiencing it.

And so, you know, March 15th, 2023, when the Chinese government said, hey, we're reinstating all the visas. You know, you guys are free to come. All the COVID restrictions are done. I mean, that was like Christmas. I was like, wow, this is great. Like now, as soon as that happened, I was like, all right, let's put the wheels in motion. And here we are three months later, June, 2023. We're in Shanghai and we're here on the podcast. Wait, so where...

Are you based in Canada or in the States? So I'm based in the States now. Oh, you're based in the States. Where about in the States? So I was for five years in Vancouver, Canada. Okay. And then last summer we relocated to Las Vegas. Oh. So full-time Las Vegas now. Nice. How's Vegas now? Vegas is good. You know, Vegas is great. I mean, we really enjoy it. I like the weather a lot better. Vancouver's a lovely spot, but- It's cold, right? Yeah. Rainy. It's cold and raining. It just rains- It's like Seattle kind of thing. Yeah. It rains nine months out of the year. Hmm.

So we relocated to sunny Vegas and it's been, it's been good. Wow. Oh yeah. We have a lot to catch up on. Absolutely. All right. So, all right. Well, so what, what's, uh, what's the deal with you in, uh, in China? Like what's the mission for this trip for you?

So, I mean, so basically I'm kind of, you know, here for about six, seven days, you know, basically about a week. I'm going to visit four cities. It's going to be very action-packed. I mean, it's going to be very hectic, the schedule. But, you know, when you have this kind of energy, I'm just like, hey, we got to tell this story. And I think my main mission is really the Western world is so disconnected with what China is today in 2023. And again, it goes back to that

three years of, you know, not being able to visit here, I think people's perception of China has just gotten worse and worse and worse. I mean, my neighbor, you know, bless his heart, he's an older gentleman, probably around 70, and he said, oh, you're going to China? Like, do you have enough social credit scores to go there? I'm like, wow. You really said that to you? I swear. I'm like, wow. I'm like, um...

- Well, you know, the social credit, it's interesting. It actually applies more to like companies as opposed to individuals. And he's like, "Oh, I thought it's like if you, you know, if you jaywalk in the middle of the street, the camera's gonna send you and be like minus 100 and, you know, now you can't." - A lot of people,

believe that. Yeah, so I mean, and I'm like, no, it really doesn't work like that at all. It's just very different, but that was his perception, and again, it's just... And this was in Vegas. This was in Vegas. This was in Vegas, and again, I mean, I don't blame him because I think in America, we just...

we kind of have that American exceptionalism where we don't really, let's be honest. I bet you most people don't know anything about Canada, right? I lived for five years in Canada. And I mean, I had a close, I had a very close friend of mine when he said, Hey, so what kind of currency do they use up there? I mean, a US dollar. I'm like, I'm like,

- No, no, it's Canadian dollars. - So it's like a general, lack of a better word, ignorance kind of? - I mean, you hate to stereotype, but I've experienced it. It is very true. That is kind of the double-edged sword, I think, of America. It's a great place, it's very beautiful, and you can kind of get whatever you want, right? If you want desert, if you want mountains, if you want beach,

whatever you want in the world, you can kind of find that in America. It's a beautiful country. It is, you know? And so a lot of Americans don't tend to travel as much. And so, you know, they don't really have a good perception of what's going on in that world. And so that's the issue is when, and that's kind of been a fun thing for me going back to America and living there. I'm very happy to be back because I can basically sit down and almost reason with anybody on the political spectrum, whether you're far left or far right and say like, hey, I used to live in China for 10 years. And initially there, you know, it's like, oh,

You know, I've had people say, oh, wow, did you have to give up your American citizen? Are you Chinese now? I'm like, no, no, I just got a work permit. Like, I'm still American citizen. But now all of a sudden, China became a little bit more real to them because like, oh, I know Cyrus and used to live there for 10 years. Let me ask you some questions. It's like a contact.

point. It's a contact point, right? You know, because like, for example, if you say like, what's Bangladesh like? I have no idea what Bangladesh is like. I have no connections. I don't know anybody from there. I don't know anybody that's traveled there. To me, I don't really know anything about it. Now, unfortunately, that's for most, I think, foreigners and Westerners. You know, China, but China is a much more important country, right? It's a huge

huge role in our global economy and our society. So, you know, everyone kind of hears about China. It's constantly in the news. Every single day it's in the news in America. So that's why it's a little bit more, you know, people are always talking about China, but yet they don't have a contact point. They have no...

experience with that at all. And so I think it's just been, it's been great for me to be back because I really do enjoy chatting with people and saying like, well, let me tell you, I used to live there for 10 years. You know, I speak Chinese. I've studied the language, the culture. I've spent a lot of time with Chinese people. You know, it's probably a lot different than what you think. And let me just, let me just share with you some things. How long have you been back in the States now for? So I moved back to Canada in 2017.

Mm-hmm. And then live five years there. So, you know, this is like year six. And what about in America? Just coming up on a year. Okay. So what I'm trying to get at is because based off of your content, which I think I can speak for both Justin and I, like we are fans of your show. Yeah. You know, you do great stuff. And one thing that I personally like to say whenever I speak about your show is that I do feel like you're not...

you know, you're not biased. Like you're trying to present facts. You're trying to present some anecdotes, but at the same time, it's like, look, that's what it is. You know, like you take what you want from it. We're not trying to, I'm not trying to like convince you anything. Right. Yeah. That's what I feel. Right. Which I think is great. That's great. And so I'm curious because now that you're back in America and you've been away from China for so long and you're, you had this message of building this bridge between the two countries, um,

I mean, is it like this really uphill battle that you're facing every day? I'm just so curious what it's like. - Yeah, I mean, that's a great question, Howie. I mean, I think, you know, the interesting thing is when I started my YouTube channel three years ago, my goal was like, I really want to be a positive force and build a better, I want to build this bridge. I really want to be a great ambassador for US-China relations. That's the goal, and that still is the vision. That still is the goal. But what I will say is that, you know,

I mean, we've kind of seen the opposite, right? U.S.-China relations, if we go back from where we were three years ago to now, I don't think you've seen an improvement. I think you've seen just the opposite, to be honest. But what I think I've been able to...

What I feel is I have so many great fans and so many great comments, and people really like that message of learning to work together. The kind of common message that I've always had on the channel is always, if the U.S. and China learn to work together, the entire world wins. That's really the cornerstone of the content. That's the cornerstone of my work.

you know, whole philosophy and belief behind, you know, the work that I'm doing. And it's just more providing that nuance and providing that perspective. And it's just simple things, you know, where, you know, for example, I looked at, I was, you know, reading today that France, you know, they came out and said, you know, we do not support an office of NATO in Japan, you know, that we don't, we do not think that that's going to be

helpful for the situation in Asia and kind of the world. And, you know, that's the second time in the last couple of months, you know, probably the last month or so that France has come out and said things that have been a little bit against the United States. And so, you know, sometimes people will criticize me and say, well, you know, why are you sharing that? Or why, you know, you're only promoting that because it's anti-American. I'm like, no, it's actually context that we need though. And, you know, I, and I was just simply, I mean, it's

the president of France. It's not like, it's not my opinion. I'm reporting on, hey, this is what the president of France has said. And there's a lot of context behind that. And on the flip side, I mean, in America, we had all of these, you know, politicians and talk show hosts. They just went postal. Look at this French guy. It's time for, you know, freedom fries again. You know, I thought you were our ally. You better support us in whatever we do.

And I said, no, you know what? Every country needs to make the best decision for them, right? I mean, yes, like supporting, you know, following the US is a common strategy for most of the, you know, this G7, a lot of these big countries, especially countries like Canada. My wife's Canadian. I've got three children. Two of them were born in Canada. So my wife and three kids are all Canadian citizens.

And, you know, so I've got a very close connection with Canada. But one of the criticisms I have is usually Canada, they don't really think for themselves. They kind of blindly follow the U.S. on whatever. I mean, they really are, you know, they're always going to follow the U.S. in whatever we do. And I just say, hey, you know, this is,

you know, as Canada, you know, your independent country, you need to make your own decisions, right? And we saw kind of a whole catastrophe with the Meng Wanzhou situation where Meng Wanzhou, and I mean, that was really kind of a pivotal point for my channel as I was in Vancouver, I happened to be in Vancouver,

I moved there in 2017. The Meng Wanzhou thing didn't happen until 2019. But it was just amazing because it's like you've got the two big superpowers, U.S. and China, battling it out in a courtyard that's 20 minutes from my house, and it's open to the public. You can just walk right in. There's Meng Wanzhou right there. You've got these lawyers. And I'm like, wow, this is fascinating. Wow, so you were there. I was there. I'd just go down there all the time and just walk in. But it was also a really interesting thing because...

I started making videos about what I learned at the testimony. And what I noticed is that a lot of those videos did very well on YouTube and immediately, there's kind of a little designated media area. There's like 50 chairs over here to the right where the media can sit. So I'd go in that area and I would just sit there and you'd have like the South China Morning Post, you'd have the Vancouver Sun, you'd have all these newspapers that are sitting there reporting. And then all of a sudden, like one guy's like, hey,

"I've seen your YouTube video. "Aren't you that YouTuber guy?" And it's like, "Man, that last video you did, "got like 200,000 views." And so, all of a sudden, I really realized this, kind of the importance of YouTube and really how things have shifted because now all of a sudden, as I kept going back, people started writing, "Hey, he's the YouTuber who's covering this case. "He's the YouTuber that's making videos on this." And for me, I mean, it's great content, right? If the fans like it, the videos are successful,

keep doing that, right? It's a good strategy, right? That's why I made probably six or seven videos about Meng Wanzhou. I talked to the number one lawyer from Canada that was following it from day one. Fantastic, phenomenal. I just grabbed him outside of the court. I was like, hey, can I just do a quick interview with him? It's about 10 minutes long. And he just

He just said, there's no way. Like there's basically, they've got nothing on her. They're going to let her go. This is my prediction. And I'm like, Hey, again, it's, it's not my opinion here. I'm like, I'm not an expert. I'm not a lawyer. So, Hey, this is the number one lawyer that, that deals with this kind of stuff in Canada. Hey, by the way, he's dual citizen with us, Canada. So he knows all of this, this international law. And I was like, Hey, great. Like tell me, it's built, show me the insides. And he loves to chat. So,

It ended up being really good. Well, let me ask you because I'm a little bit – I have two questions for you. First off, just with that court case because I didn't really follow that case, what was the outcome? Well, the outcome is that basically it was kind of a win-win for both the U.S. and China because essentially –

She has a non-guilty verdict, but I think she had to sign basically a piece of paper that stated that she did some things that were not correct. So it's kind of like the U.S. can basically say like, okay, look, she admitted that she did this, but then China can say, well, at the end of the day, she's non-guilty.

Like she has a non-guilty verdict. And basically they just dropped the charges and then off she went. And life moved on. And life moved on. You know, magically life moved on. But it really dragged out a really long time. And there was a lot of things that went down. I mean, like, for example, I mean, very basic things, you know, it was amazing is when they arrested her,

They actually had like five security guards. So imagine she's flying in from, I believe she flew in from Mexico into Vancouver, or I think she was on her way to Mexico. I think it was coming in. No, it was coming in from somewhere. She was coming in from Asia, landing in Vancouver, basically just in the transit zone, going to Mexico. And so she did not clear customs in Canada. She was just transferring. But what they did is they...

had five officers go on board to the plane and arrest her, like right in the business class seat. Wow. Right? And so they had asked her, it's like, don't you think that's a bit excessive? And he's like, and in the court case, you know, he had said, well, we didn't know if she had any weapons on her. You know, we had to make, and we had to make sure that our safety was paramount. So we needed all five of them there. And I'm like,

any weapons, how are you going to bring a weapon on a plane? Like, you know, she's flying, she's flying like Cathay Pacific or some, whatever airline it was. I mean, it's a major airline. Well, they're treating her like a terrorist. Yeah. I mean, it was just, and so the other thing is, is they, you know, they took all of her stuff away. They, you know, started questioning her without, they didn't give access to a lawyer. You know, they were illegally questioning her. They took her, you know, things like this where it's just like, hey, we're in Canada where you have these people

rights and these laws that are in place and you broke them. So there's, you know, there's, and that's a hundred percent fact. Like there's no, nobody can deny that the way that the Canadian officers broke protocol and, and, and did that. And, and one of the things that became kind of controversial, I was, you know, when you go to the courtroom, you would check in and you have to, you know, check all your stuff in, you can't have any metal or anything on you. And so I just talked to the officers there. I was like, Hey, what do you guys, uh, what do you guys think?

And the guy's just like, "This whole thing's a nightmare for us Canadians. It's like, literally we're just doing Donald Trump's dirty work." And I was like- - Security guards were saying that. - Security guards said that. So what I do is I was like, oh, you know, so I just casually dropped that in an interview. And I was just, sorry, in my YouTube video. So I guess like, well, you know, I was talking to the security guard to say, and this is exactly what he said. So all of a sudden all the newspapers were like, "Well, who said that? Who said that? Who's the quote? Can I quote this guy?" And I'm like, "Well, it's not a quote. I'm just like, just casual conversation."

you know just in but i had i had some i had some newspaper right some newspaper uh reporters actually kind of attack me in vancouver and write some nasty things about course but that's that comes with the territory it does you know i think there was a little bit of frustration that um you know i know one of the guys he has a very bad reputation in vancouver but he was a little jealous that here's this

you know, YouTuber coming in and getting all these views on videos where, you know, he's trying to, you know, he's basically trying, you know, he's trying to sell newspapers, you know, so it's just kind of shows you, you know, podcasts are the way, podcasts, YouTube videos. I mean, this is where people are getting their news and there's a big need for this independent voice. I think that's really important. - Well, it's getting stronger and stronger.

For sure. I mean, even just rewinding a few years back, let's say even when COVID just first hit or right before it first hit, I remember having conversations with friends who, in the States, that follow media, traditional media, very closely, certain like Wall Street Journal or New York Times, for example. And anytime you bring up any type of podcaster or YouTuber or whatever, they're like, oh,

Why do you watch that? Why do you listen to that? He's like, they don't fact check. They just talk. I'm like, well, have you watched some of these people? Some of these people are coming in from really knowledgeable areas. Even the mainstream media fact checking is questionable these days. So questionable. Absolutely. But this leads directly to kind of what I want to ask you. As successful as your YouTube channel has become,

Like, how do you, how do you keep a balance? Right. Because like, I know with this, like us, China stuff, it's, it's really easy to go down a certain path with that, especially when you're getting positive reinforcement for the content you make. Right. And, and how it's so politicized. And so like, you can really find yourself going down a certain path or a certain hole. How, what, what's your method or do you have a method of trying to kind of stay balanced and,

With the whole thing, given that you're going to have people who really support you, you're going to have your critics and haters, of course. For sure. How do you deal with all that? And how do you make sure the content you're putting out there is still on brand for you in terms of really trying to bring the world together and not just so one-sided all the time?

That's a great question. I mean, I think you really have to, you know, try to look at it from both sides. And I think that's where, you know, for example, I'm going to, I'll give you a great example is when we look at a situation of Taiwan. You know, you already have this very unique circumstance called the status quo that has kind of perfectly works for everybody, you know, and it has been worked for many years. And I think when you listen to the thing that we have to really, you

you know, have to get our heads around is you listen to some of the better people in Washington that have a more solid head on their shoulders with real experience. I'll give an example, a gentleman by the name of Ryan Haas. He works for the Brookings Institute, I believe it's called. It's a think tank in Washington, D.C. I've had a chance to meet him. Him and I were both in Vanderbilt University, March 2021, giving a keynote speech about China and

And we had a chance to chat and it was great because he was, he served in Beijing under, underneath the Obama administration, you know, for many years, you know, speaks Chinese, you know, he has a lot of on the ground experience. And when you listen to a guy like this speak,

Like, you know, you hear him and essentially he's saying, you know, there's a couple of things he said was really interesting. He said, number one, you know, the United States has predicted 10 out of the last zero, you know, invasions of, right? Like, you know, we've basically, you know, we're always sounding the alarm bells, but actually China's never really done anything.

In addition to that, you know, his, you know, to sum it up, he says kind of the best policy is to kind of kick this down the road and basically the status quo. Like we got to really push for the status quo. And that's something that I'm like, you know, this is a guy that really gets it. You know, he is very much, he understands the situation, the nuance that's required. And then I look at another guy that I shared on Twitter. There's a very conservative, ultra conservative Republican that's running. He's an East Indian. His background, I think, is Vivek.

Oh, yeah. He's running for president. Running for president. So, I mean, in a video, I shared this yesterday on Twitter, but he says, all right, this is how we deter China. It's called American exceptionalism. We open up an NRA office inside of Taipei. You know, we come in there, guns a-blazing, full American style, American exceptionalism at its best. And I'm like, wow. Wow.

You really said all that? I'm kind of like, I'm paraphrasing, but it's like 90% there. Oh yeah. I mean, you can, so, and so I shared, I was just like, wow, just when you thought a US politician couldn't be any

and I'm gonna just call him out on it. I mean, just really completely disconnected from reality and what the situation is. You have a guy like Vivek come along that just spouts this nonsense, but here's the issue. And this is the issue of what we see, Justin, is that he's...

He is appealing to the very far right conservatives in America. And at this point where we are, right, this is June, 2023, right? We're less than 18 months away from the 2024 election. So for him, he is trying to garner those votes. And so you think it's strategic? It's strategic.

I mean, there's, I mean, and I mean, maybe he really believes in that, but I mean, he knows saying something like that, well, he's going to certainly rally the, all of the very far right conservatives that are a hundred percent want more guns in America and love that second amendment. Well, he has to rattle the boat, right? Otherwise he doesn't stand, well, he probably doesn't stand a chance either way, but like, he doesn't, but, but he needs to like,

make some noise. He needs to make some noise. And that's unfortunate about our political system, what we're going to, you know, where we're getting into this, you know, 18 month long, just slugfest where basically every politician, you have to be extreme, right? How else are you going to stand out? You know, I mean, I'm convinced that, you know, guys like Senator Tom Cotton from Arkansas, this guy is,

is a nobody, right? But all of a sudden he starts getting on air on like CNBC and these talk shows because I remember for, you know, his whole theory was we should not be sending American athletes to the Beijing 2022 Olympics because China is gonna steal their DNA and they're gonna use it to make superhumans

I mean, not a joke. But again, like you come out with a view that extreme, you're going to get TV time, you know? And that's where we are right now. For better or for worse. For better or for worse. And it's definitely for worse, but that's where we are in American society right now. And so that's where I'm going to go back to your original question, where I look at like, that's why I'm trying to listen to a guy like Ryan Haas, who obviously, you know,

has, you know, wants to operate in America's best interest and works very close with people in Washington, D.C., but brings in that experience. And what I find is, is that people that have the real life experience that are here, I mean, just a few days ago, I mean, we had the CEO of, of, uh,

JP Morgan had a huge financial conference here in Shanghai. So, I mean, we hear all of this rhetoric of like, we need to move every factory out of China, completely cut off from China. That's impossible. It's not going to happen. It's just, it's not going to happen at all. Meanwhile, you have, you know, the CEOs of these big companies are coming to China right now. And I mean, same thing. We saw the German companies, the German executives, Olaf Scholz from Germany,

first Western leader to, it's like, I'm booking it straight over to Shanghai and I'm bringing 12 of the biggest German CEOs with me. Why? Because Germany is getting hammered right now. I did just officially entered into a recession. They're getting absolutely crushed economically. They had a huge energy crisis, but like that's the contradiction of it all. We, we have one narrative that is like kind of the political narrative of, of,

a lot of Western countries trying to pull away and be less dependent on China. And, you know, that that's on a political spectrum, but then you have like the trade and business spectrum, which is only increasing. Yes. Just like with, you know, like we talk about the relationship between us and China, uh,

deteriorating, in which, you know, I think anyone with eyes can see it has. But again, like last year was the record number of, like record amount of trade between the two countries. Yeah, absolutely. So it's like, that's where it gets a little bit complex and confusing because it's like, how do you reconcile that, right? And then it makes it much harder to also kind of predict future events because we're

you don't really know which side is gonna win out. Is it gonna be like the political stuff? Is it gonna be the business and economic stuff? Because they don't always go hand in hand. And in this case, they kind of run counter to each other. - And that's why I always say, as I say, politicians are gonna be like Vivek. They're gonna say things to get votes. And that is one of the downfalls of this democracy

And again, please don't take me that I'm anti-democratic. I mean, I think democracy has been a very successful form of government. There's, you know, but I'm a very big advocate that it's not the only form of government, right? There's, you know, every country needs to figure out what is their best system for them. And I mean, you look and look at a country like Singapore, for example, I like to reference Singapore because I think it's a phenomenal country, but it's much more closer to a one-party state. I mean, effectively it is a one-party state, but that has more, you know, Western values,

But I mean, they've probably been the biggest success story of the past 70 years. I mean, it's incredible what Singapore has done. So again, very different form of government than what we have in the US. But what I always say is that politicians say things for reactions and trying to get the vote. That is their intention. How can I keep my power? How can I stay in power and do what I need to do to continue and get another four-year term? And as opposed to the businessmen, the businessmen are, well, how do we make more money?

You know, how are we going to leverage, you know, especially if you are Starbucks CEO, Nike CEO, how are we going to maximize shareholder value, right? And China comes into play there, right? And I mean, I think now the term has shifted from decoupling to de-risking. And there's certainly examples of companies that are, you know, diversifying their supply chains. You know, for example, Apple is a good example where they've

you know, essentially made everything here in China. And now they're saying, okay, we're going to start opening up some factories in India. We're going to start shifting some iPhone production there and diversify, you know, diversify, you know, you know, assure. But I mean, even that's being said, you know, they said within, you know, three to four years, we can probably make up to 20% of our iPhones in India. Yeah. Okay.

okay, well, the other 80 is coming from China. So yeah, you can diversify a little bit, but I mean, 80% is, it's your whole, I mean, it's the vast majority. So, I mean, you're still relying very much on China. China is still going to be, you know, this vital piece to our world economy. And again, that's why it goes back to the central mission of, you know, how do we

how do we find a way to work together, right? You know, even the best financial experts then that really understand all of this trade, you know, they realize, you know, there is no possibility of us ever decoupling from China. That is an impossibility. Anybody that says that doesn't understand how our global economy really works. Now, certainly we can de-risk and we can, you know, open up, you know, again, Apple, okay, we're going to open up some factories in other places, right?

And we've started to see that even in textiles and stuff where there's a lot of manufacturing done in Vietnam now, where Nike is not just a manufacturing solely in China. But the issue is, well,

and I've done a lot of research on this, is that it's very hard to compete with China because China from the logistics is so well, you know, I mean- - And all the raw materials, most of the raw materials come from China anyway. - They do. - So even if you produce in Vietnam, you gotta ship all that raw materials to Vietnam. - And skill, yeah, training skill throughout these years. - Yeah, and then there's the production capacity.

- Exactly, exactly. So I mean, it's not as easy as just like, well, let's just build the same factory in Vietnam. It's not as simple. - Do you think it would be, I'm asking a question here, I don't have the answer, but what do you think if the media were to talk more or put more focus on, let's say, economic trade and just like what Justin was saying,

last year was the biggest year for a trade between China and the US. If it was more focused on that side, as opposed to just pure politics, do you think the common person would have a different view on China?

I think so. I think they would, but that's the problem with our media right now is that, as we know, fear sells, right? You know, fear. Alarmism. You know, alarmism or anger. I mean, we tap into emotions, right? We can, you know, and so the problem is, is that, I mean, there's not an American that will not admit that, you know, we have a very polarized society right now in America, right? It's very much you right or you left, right?

And you really feel it because we haven't been back in the States in a while. Like you're with us or you're against us. Yeah. I mean, this is an interesting statistic that really sums it up. I quoted this in a video earlier. But I think it was something along the lines of 94% of Americans are completely okay with interracial marriage, okay? Which is great, right? Because obviously no problem there at all, right? My wife is Chinese, right? If you're black or white or Hispanic, doesn't matter.

94% of Americans across the board completely accepting of interracial marriage, but it's inter-party marriage that has now become the deal breaker. Okay? So that's the issue is that basically Democrats, I think it's something around...

you know, the lines of like, you know, I think it's a little bit more for Republicans. Let's just say these numbers are a little bit off. I know the 94% for the interracial marriage, but basically it's something high, like 60 to 70% of Republicans say, I will not support my child marrying somebody of a different political party. And then it's Democrats. It's just a little bit below that, but it's essentially the vast majority of both Republicans and Democrats are saying that is the pivotal issue for me. Marry whatever type of person you want. They just have to be our political party.

And so you see this divide that's happening in America where, you know, I mean, I mean, and you see this very much on TikTok and Instagram where, you know, you have, you know, if you are a Republican, well, you start subscribing to these very pro-right groups and then all of your news feeds. It's basically one echo chamber. It gets so easy. I was actually telling, talking to Howie the other day because I was on Instagram and

And before my Instagram feed was very positive, very innocent positive. It was funny memes and stuff like that. And then there was one kind of, I guess you would call it a little more far right kind of video. And I was like, okay. I was just curious and I tapped into it. Now my entire feed is like,

politicized. It's just that easy. And then you get sucked in, like you said, to that echo chamber or that mental diet. Yeah. And I mean, I saw this one clip that kind of went viral for the conservative group. And it was basically a gentleman comes up to the door and he's wearing a mask and he just knocks on the door. He said, hi, I'm whatever my name is. I'm running for city council. And the guy's like, are you a Democrat? Yes. You

You can leave now. And, and, and so like, and everyone's just like, you know, laughing and it's like, ha ha, that guy told him so. And, but that's where we're at, where it's just like, you know, what's your party? Oh, okay. I'm a Democrat. I don't want to speak to you at all. That's where the line is drawn. That's where the line is, you know? And, and, and so, I mean, my thing is, is like, I, as a bridge builder, I'm,

I'm willing to, I can talk to anybody about, I mean, you can hate China all you want. Let's have a conversation, you know, 'cause I'm pretty sure I can provide some nuance to you that, you know, that maybe will open your mind up a little bit. Or, you know, and depending on, you know, I don't really care if you're a Democrat or Republican, you know, at the end of the day, I look at you as an American, right? I mean, we have, that's what we have to look at. That's where we've lost it in America is that, you know, when it was Trump versus Hillary

It's like, you know, good versus evil. It's like, well, who's good, who's evil? You know, I mean, both sides are kind of saying- It depends on who you ask. Yeah, but it's kind of both sides are saying the same thing. I'm like, well, it's in a choice between an American and American, right? And at the end of the day, you know, like for example, Joe Biden's our president right now.

If you didn't vote for him, well, you know what? He's still your president, right? I mean, we still have to respect that position. That's one thing I was always taught is, you know, no matter, you know, that's kind of- Not when he's like falling everywhere. It makes it hard to respect him when he's like falling. I mean, no, no. I mean, but I mean, it's still like, it's still like-

Like he's our president. You know what I mean? I agree. I mean, it's, I'm joking. No, no. I mean, it is, it is difficult for him at his age. I mean, I, I have legit, I mean, I think everybody has legitimate concerns over him, you know, being able to do the job at his age. I mean, and that's where I'm just like, gosh, I hope in 2024, you know,

I mean, I think it'd be really sad if it's Trump versus Biden again. What do you think it's going to be? What would you be your best guess right now? I don't know. I think DeSantis is really going to be leading the Republican Party. But I mean, the problem that I was reading an article the other day that he is bringing in, like he wants to form his China committee, if you will. And the guys that he is bringing in, I mean, one of them is Gordon Chang. You know, I mean, and so it's like, well, okay, we're going to have now Gordon Chang, an official guy, you know, with a link right to the president of the White House. I mean, this is just...

I mean, you can't find a guy that's more disconnected from reality, you know, regarding China and just the nonsense that he spews. You know, I mean, like, for example, that, you know, the Republicans put together this, this, this, the Republican House on China committee. And you basically have, you know, these five people that are or whoever's on the committee. I mean, they're just so anti-China. They're just it's basically, you know, all of us, you know, let's just see how much how can we hate China more?

And so there's no constructive policy. There's no constructive dialogue at all. I mean, Fareed Zakaria on CNN came out and he's, I really like Fareed because he called down and he said, this is such dangerous groupthink and it is such a dangerous thing that this is doing because you know what, I mean, Fareed is really great because he's like, hey, we can call China out on this. We can say this about China. But at the end of the day,

we need China. We need to be more objective about China. We can do better than this. This is not helpful at all. And that's very brave of him to come out and say that. I mean, he even blasted his own network, even blasted CNN. And so, yeah, I mean, it is a very, it's very divisive right now. I mean, it's a very polarized society. I mean, I know you guys haven't been back for a while, but I think what we're really, what I'm hoping for is that, you know, we could get some

You know, I'd love to see some younger people in the race for 2024. That would be my, I mean, let's just say if it's a DeSantis and a Robert Kennedy Jr. from the Democrats, I mean, at least you got somebody that's, you know, a little bit younger than, you know, Biden pushing 80,

too, or I mean, it's very difficult. Whoever gets to that position, though, no one wants to be seen or portrayed as soft on China, right? So they're going to ring that bell, that alarmist bell. I think, I mean, a lot of it, you know, this is something I've been thinking too, is like, you know, talking about like the alarmism and the fear mongering, which is something I mentioned a lot on this show. I don't know. I see it as...

It's like the China collapse theory. You know, people have been saying that for decades now. Yeah, absolutely. And then, but like, it reminds me of the saying, like, even a broken clock is right two times a day. Right. So the thing is, like, if you keep spouting that like alarmist thing, whatever that thing is, like whether it's, oh, China's going to collapse any minute now or whatever it is.

eventually there's going to be problems and crisis, right? Down the road. And there's going to be conflict. And then people are going to be like, see, you know, I was right. Even though like they've been wrong for like 10 years straight, you know? Right, right. Exactly. It's like, it's still like that broken clock. That's like, right, two times a day. You're right, right. I mean, that's the playbook for Gordon Chang. I mean, he wrote The Coming Collapse of China in 2001. And here we are in 2023 and China hasn't collapsed. And, you know, I mean, it's again like,

you know, if China were supposedly to collapse, then I'm sure he'd come out and be like, see, I predicted it. I was, you know. Isn't there that guy, I've seen him on the podcast, Peter Zahan or something like that? Yeah, Peter Zahan. Yeah, some crazy guy. He's also saying the same thing. I haven't really followed him, but I've heard a few things he said. Yeah, I mean, he's definitely a lot more well-researched and certainly a lot more

So, I mean, he has his theories that, you know, like, for example, I mean, China's got some big issues that it's going to have to work through, right? I mean, as for example, we know that it has very low birth rate. We know that the workforce is going to be declining. You know, the population of China is declining. So how is China going to deal with that, you know, in the next 10, 20, 30 years from now, right? They're, you know, they're going to have, you know, 200 million workers basically retire in the next,

10 to 15 years, and that's gonna shift the whole economy around a lot. I mean, we're seeing right now record youth unemployment, right? 20% of unemployment amongst the youth. I mean, that's a major issue. I mean, I don't try to step around these issues and pretend that they don't exist. I mean, but that being said, I mean, this was an interesting thing where I was again talking to my neighbor who had asked me that question about my social credit scores. And he said, you know, he's like, "Cyrus, you know,

does China have enough food? Like, can China feed its people? Like, I think that's the major concern. I'm like, well, you know what? I mean, like, I told him, I said, hey, you know what? What country does not have a lot of issues that they're facing right now? I said, look at the United States of America right now, all right? Our homelessness issue is through the roof. We have a massive drug epidemic that's going on. But just the cost of things in America is outrageous right now. I mean, it is truly unbelievable. I mean, for example, I took my...

I mean, I took my three kids to Subway, okay, for lunch. So let's do a little test here, okay? So I got a foot-long turkey sandwich, okay? And so my twins, they split that. And then I got a little six-inch ham sandwich, okay?

One foot long, one six inch. One six inch. One foot long, one six inch. And I got, they got their own. Was it a meal? Like it come with like. It wasn't a meal. So just the sandwiches. Just the sandwich, okay. Okay, just the sandwiches. And then I, they each got, I don't want them drinking soda or anything. So I got them water bottles. So they each, they brought their own water. And then I got three cookies for them. So three chocolate chip cookies, a 12 inch and a six inch. Okay. Those three cookies are going to put you over the top right there. So let's say, how much did that cost? How much did that lunch cost me? 21 bucks. 18 bucks.

32. Damn! $32. At Subway now? At Subway. So this is in Las Vegas. $32. Wait, you can go into like a real restaurant and have a meal for that. It's insane. Well, I don't know. Not now, but like... I mean, dude, real restaurants are... When I was there. Real restaurants are crazy. So...

I mean, I'm going to, I got to show you. Okay. So that's, so that's, that's one that is all right. So that's Subway. Okay. Now I will say there was like, now they have an option there where you can tip. So I tipped like, yeah. So I think, I think it came up to like $28 and then I tipped like 15%. So it was like 31. You know, because you feel, you got to tip these guys. It's a tipping culture. It's a tipping culture, right? So yeah. So with tip, you know, 31, 31, $32, somewhere around. Is 15% tip where it starts? Is that the lowest? 15 is, 15 is, is like,

I thought it was 20 now though, isn't it? It's kind of 20 now. It's like 20, 22, 25. But all right, but here's another one. I mean, this is mind blowing, right? So I think I had, I think I deleted the photo. But anyways, anyways, I mean, that's just Subway. So I'm like, if you are, you know, I'm like, I mean, geez, Subway sandwiches used to be like five bucks back in the day, right? I mean, you get a Subway sandwich for five bucks. And so I'm just like,

How are people, if you're making minimum wage right now, how are you functioning right now? And so I read another article that said somewhere in France that the average French citizen right now, the average French citizen is that after they pay their...

you know, their mortgage and their things, basically their monthly bankroll that they need to survive, you know, they're left over with about 100 euros a month right now, you know, and because everything and the cost of everything has gone up, the inflation has gone up. So, I mean, we look at that in the sense of, I mean, I look at America, you know, we have a very big

divide i mean we talk about the the social divide in china there's a lot of mega wealth a lot of ultra wealthy and a lot of poor i i see the exact same thing in the united states you know it's i mean it's it's a lot of you know we have a lot of wealthy people there's a lot of wealth there there's a lot of poor and then you know hopefully you're somewhere in the middle that you know is doing okay but i mean it's it's uh well i think like that's where like every country's got a lot that they're dealing with yeah exactly and i think like a lot of the um

I don't know, I get the sense that like for content creators like yourself, a lot of the criticism for, I think like well-meaning people, obviously you have like real toxic haters who are just like not connected to reality, like you said. Those are easy to ignore. But I think you also have like well-meaning people

who also feel like, hey, you're being overly, you're just looking at the positive things about China. There's a lot to criticize here. And that's absolutely true. But I don't think that's the point, though. Like, I honestly don't think that's the point. There's definitely a lot of criticisms here. But the point is, well, not the point, but the reality is there's a lot to criticize anywhere you go, right? But the bigger problem is the division, right?

That should be, that's the headline here, is the demonizing and the division and even the misinformation. And yes, there's good and bad things about every country, and there's certainly good and bad things about China. But the real headline is, why are there these narratives out there that are trying to

divide, create fear, create hate, and just make any sort of like political coming together, whether it's socially or politically or through governments, like that much harder. Because like, like you're painting, even the politicians are believe, are starting to believe that, or whether they believe that or not, that at least they're using that as a tool to, to, to, you know, on their campaign trails. Right. So it's like,

So, and so that's my response to like, yeah, like we can harp on any, we can harp on the bad things in America all day long. We can harp on the bad things in China all day long. But is that the point? The point is we need to come together. And I think, and this goes back to my, you know, earlier question of like, how do you try to check yourself? Because I know within myself, um,

Because I see that the kind of anti-China narrative is so strong out there, I try to correct for that and dismiss a lot of that. But as you try to dismiss a lot of that, inherently, you're going to be viewed as very pro-China, right? Because you're trying to dismiss a lot of the anti-China stuff.

And so the goalposts are kind of shifting in which it's very easy all of a sudden to get too far in one direction where people you potentially want to reach and talk to, people who are more or less reasonable, relatively open-minded people,

will also see you as like, oh, you're just way too pro-China. Like, you know, I need to hear the other side. It's very easy to go down that road when you're really, you know, being defensive, which I won't speak for you, but for me, definitely, I find myself in that very defensive mode sometimes where it's like, no, it's not like that. You don't understand, you know? Right.

And then, and then, you know, and then you do lose a bit of nuance. But again, like I said, like, I don't think that's not the point. Like if you want me to harp on bad things, sure. We know, but we can harp on bad. We can trade bad for bad all day long. But what, what are we getting out of that?

Yeah, and I think what's interesting is that all we hear about China in the West is bad. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. So I try to provide some nuance and say, well, let me just say some of the positive things that China's doing. And I think one of the simple ways that I try to do that is that I always say,

Right now in China, there's somebody sitting at a Starbucks typing on their computer. There's people going out to dinner. There's a grandma picking up her granddaughter from school. People are coming together for meals. People are going on holidays. People are watching their favorite TV drama. And people are going to a restaurant and talking about what happened in their latest TV drama.

They're going to concerts. They're doing a lot of these normal things that we do in the United States as well. And so that's where I think where, you know, one of the interesting things that I that I point out is that in America, you know, government and politics tend to be a very popular thing.

conversation piece, right? You know, and even if you are in a group with, you know, let's say a lot of conservatives, you know, you tend to be like, well, did you see the latest thing that the left tried to do? And, you know, it becomes a kind of a topic point. Meanwhile, in China, I said, you know, the reality is, is that

your average Chinese person, they're not talking about the government that much, right? It's not like, it's like, well, did you see what Beijing did today, honey? Oh yeah, I just saw that new policy that it's like, you just- No, they're not obsessed with it. They're not obsessed. And there's, and you know, there's certainly an argument for that in the sense that there's a one party, you know, one party state here. It makes sense for them to not to be obsessed. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, it is what it is. And that's all they know as well. So it's kind of the same thing where, what I always say, look, you know, all you know as an American is a two party system.

We only have one additional party than China. It's not like we – I mean, Canada has five. Canada has five parties that are five legit parties, whereas the U.S., I mean, you can have maybe, I don't know, the Green Party or something. It's really only two parties. It's really only two parties for all things considered.

So the reality is, is that yes, we have one additional party than China does, but I do see that there's, it's just a very interesting, I just try to provide some nuance. And I mean, but it comes back to, I mean, like in the last few months, I've made a lot of successful videos that have done really well talking about the Belt and Road Initiative and why China is, you know, why is Africa choosing China? Why is Latin America choosing China? Why is the Middle East choosing China?

And it's very interesting because largely speaking, the global South is completely ignored. I found an amazing poll that I think it was from the Pew Research Center where it said 77% of the world now views China in a negative light, 77%. For that survey, they interviewed 30 countries. Every single country was from the global North. It was essentially the US, Canada, the EU, Australia, and Japan. So it's like, okay,

This is not the world. You're not even close to the world. - Exactly, far, far. They represent a very small percentage of the population of the world. - Very small percentage of the population. So that's where I make the videos where people will say, "Cyrus, you know, you're too pro-China." I'm like, no, no, no. Listen to this. If you have a survey that says 77% of the world and you block out South America, Africa, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East,

I mean, that's by far the vast majority of people in this world. And I mean, that's where, again, like if you take, let's just pick a random country, Bolivia, you know, or any other country, you know, these small, you know, Nigeria, you know, just like, you know, smaller countries. It's like, what do you want? I want, of course, I want to do trade with both the United States and China.

And I mean, it was a great interview with the Barbados prime minister who I really like. She's a very outspoken prime minister. And I remember BBC was interviewing her and basically the BBC interviewer had said like, well, how do you feel that you're making this connections with China? You're in the United States backyard and you're doing a deal with China, first of all.

everybody in Latin and South America absolutely hate it when you say you're in the United States backyard. It's like, no, we're not. - The way you frame it, right? - The way you frame it, it's like, we're not in anybody's backyard. We're an independent country. - Like we're pets. - Yeah, we don't own you. Yeah, geographically, we're located close to the United States. At the end of the day, we're an independent country.

And she just basically called the BBC interviewer out and she said, well, I would hope that the BBC interviewer would have a little bit more respect for the prime minister of this country that I can make the best decisions for my country. And again, why do I want to be involved? We're Barbados. We're a tiny country. Of course we want to do business with both China and the U.S. We're not picking sides here. And so it's the same thing where

I mean, it's just, again, I can just give more and more of these examples where Marco Rubio, Senator from Florida, is just like, well, you know what? You know what? We're not going to be able to sanction anybody because in a few years, everyone's going to be circumventing the U.S. dollar and trading in other currencies. And that's not going to allow us to sanction everybody. Well, it's like, well, yeah, that's kind of the point, bud. Like, that's why people are making that shift. You know, like...

I'm just, again, I'm just reporting on what's happening. You know, why did Brazil and China just sign a massive currency deal where they're going to start doing trade, you know, and not using US dollars? You know, I just want to bring back a little bit on that Pew research that you brought up because I recently attended this talk from an NYU professor of economics.

Basically, his thesis, well, he brought up the Pew Research, and I saw the stats, and the first question that came to mind was, just like you said, why are they only focused on those countries as opposed to the rest of the world, especially the Southern Hemisphere? And that was discussed, but what's interesting, the point I'm trying to get at is that this professor did independent research to...

basically for China to see exact same countries. What, what's the Chinese perspective? Oh, okay. Reverse. Nice. Right. And I thought you might be interested in this. So, so what was interesting was, um, the statistics came out and generally speaking of all the countries, uh, I'm going to,

put US to the side for now, but all of them were either neutral to positive. Yeah. Right? Like still. But explain clearly what you're talking about. Are you talking about the Chinese perception of these countries? Yes. Okay. So basically the Pew research was the other countries' perspectives on China. And like Cyrus was saying, a lot of them was negative, mostly negative, especially United States was like 70 something percent. Right? Yeah.

And it was obvious that the United States was the biggest, like the biggest market with UK barely behind, right? Yeah, but maybe they say everyone was pretty negative. Yeah, yeah, but in general, everyone's pretty negative. And then the reverse came back, and I'm not talking about the United States, but all the other countries, like, you know, even like Holland, Germany, Spain, whatever, et cetera, Japan, they're either negative or, I mean, I'm sorry, middle, like neutral, or positive, right? Yeah.

with Germany being the most positive. Being like, yeah, Germans are good. Which is interesting, right? Amongst Chinese people. Chinese people. And the demographic is quite...

quite wide. I'm not going to go through all the details, but it's a wide demographic of all ages, you know, from like 18 to like 50 something, you know, et cetera. Right. You know, first tier to third tier cities. Anyway, so what was interesting was all the statistics were pretty much like neutral to positive, but then you got to the United States and that's the only statistic where it mirrored.

So it was exact same. It was like 70 something negative towards the United States. So it was like, whoa, that's the one common denominator between the two. We hate each other. Yeah. Well, and I think what's difficult as well is, and I can, you know, I've seen this a lot, even on Chinese social media, right? I make videos on Chinese social, you know, Douyin, Billy Billy, Xigua,

And I've seen comments from people that have just like, you know, we don't like Americans anymore. I don't want to watch your videos anymore. You know, go back to America. You're not welcome in China. - Oh, wow. Even with you, with all the content you're creating. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I'm sure, yeah. - I mean, but again, like very rare, right? I mean, so again, like one out of a hundred.

Maybe one out of 500, right? So I've seen that, those comments before. And again, I don't get mad at that because I'm obviously on the flip side on YouTube and I certainly have people that don't like me or my content. And that has to do with every content creator, right? It doesn't matter if you're baking cookies and that's your channel. I've got half a million subscribers and bake cookies, you're gonna get haters.

It doesn't matter, that is the internet. So if you are putting yourself out on the internet, you have to have thick skin, you will get haters no matter what you talk about. And so I think the big thing with this one

I get it. Like, you know what? You know, you're kind of feeling that, you know, the United States is kind of attacking China. There's a lot of negative sentiment. And you know what? Like, you're feeling very nationalistic, if you will, or very patriotic. You're feeling very proud of China. And, you know, that's kind of the thing where, I mean, I've had, on the flip side, this is an interesting insight. I've had a lot of Chinese students in America who have said, you know, Cyrus, I really appreciate your YouTube channel because,

I gotta be honest with you. Like I'm an international student from China and I'm really ashamed to be Chinese.

I just hate that I'm Chinese. And I just wish that I could be a different nationality. I wish that I could be more accepted in this. I hate the way that I look because I'm in America and people know that my last name is Zhang. So it's like, oh, of course you're Chinese. And I hate it. And that to me is just so heartbreaking because, and I'll take the time to write an email and just say, look,

there's no problem from being from China. You should be completely proud of being from China. And you represent yourself, you're an international student. But the thing is, it's out of your control, right? None of us can control where we're born in the world. But the other thing is, you need to be proud of where you're from. There's nothing wrong with someone saying, I mean, I remember the same thing with Beijing 2022 Olympics, where people were...

I mean, I remember like Chinese people are like waving the flags and it's like, oh, I'm sure the Chinese government are forcing these people to be there, you know, cheering. It's like, no, you know what? Like Chinese people are proud of themselves. Super proud, right? And that's what I say as well as I say, look, you got to understand as well is this new generation. You know, if you are born after 1990, all you've known is a modern and progressive China.

I mean, you have not had to eat the bitterness as the older generation has had to do where you had to really suffer and really go through these difficult times. And that's something like, for example, with my father-in-law. I mean, I remember he's in Guangzhou and I remember he told me, he's like, "Cyrus, growing up, I was so poor. I didn't have shoes." I have seven brothers.

you know, like I'm one of eight. I mean, we didn't have shoes growing up. I mean, we grew up in just the streets here in Guangzhou. And then like me and my wife are visiting the family and we were at a really nice dim sum restaurant. And he's just like, look at my city. Like, this is Guangzhou. Like, I mean, look at this tower. Look at this, look at this. And you can just kind of sense this like,

like this proud, like I'm from Guangzhou, like this is my city. And it's like, I've been here. Like I remember when it was nothing, right? I mean, he's 60 something years old. So I mean, 60 years ago, Guangzhou was nothing. I mean, it was dirt poor, but he's seen it transform. And there's a huge pride. It's even for him, it's like,

you know, why do I want to live here? Like, this is my town. This is where I want to be. This is where I'm proud of. And so, again, I mean, it's nothing, you ever meet somebody from Texas, it's the same thing, right? People from Texas are extremely proud of being from Texas. They love it. They think it's the best state in the country. They think it's the best place in the world. And that's great. You know, like, it's a great place. You know, I've been there. It's great. And the people are genuinely really proud of that. So, again, I think it's just, you

kind of going back to the content is just, there's always more context that we can provide. There's always more insights that we can provide. And it's the same thing. Look at that set, look at that poll. And I have no problem. I mean, that's going to be some of the content I'm going to shoot this week. I'm going to be like, hey, let's jump in a taxi, ask the taxi driver, what do you think of America? Kind of like street interviews. Street interview, what do you think of America? Like, hey, I'm American. What do you think about me? What's your view towards America? How do you view the US-China relationship?

And I'm just interested to see what people are going to say, right? I mean, it's going to be fun. Well, this is a point I've made before, you know, referring to the study that Howie's alluding to. It's also a snapshot, right? Like of what the current situation is right now. From the Chinese side, in terms of their perceptions of America being equally as negative as American perceptions of China right now,

It is a snapshot because it didn't used to be that way. It didn't. And I don't see these things just manifesting in a vacuum out of thin air. I think in the way I've seen it, because I feel like I've seen it shift in real time with all the years I've been living here. It is a reaction to all that negative stuff.

Media coverage of China from the West. It is it's a direct reaction to it and the timing I'm sure if you go back and I don't know I haven't done this. The statistics were out comparing I think was like 2008 to Yeah, this recent 2022 poll

It was a positive. It was a very positive outlook. Well, I mean, I remember 2008, there was an iconic photo of George Bush, our president at the time. He was nearing the end, but it was basically the Summer Olympics in Beijing and George Bush in the stands with the common people, surrounded by Chinese people, but waving his American flag, basically rooting on Michael Phelps in the pool.

And it's like, that's such a great image of George Bush, you know, flying to Beijing, you know, attending the Olympics, cheering for his American athletes,

And you would almost think that's almost impossible. Like there's no way, and we saw that, right? Beijing hosted the 2022 Olympics. - Yeah, the Beijing Olympics, that was actually a really great time for the relations between these two countries, that moment in time. - It was, I mean, 2008 was great. I mean, I came to China in February 2000, or January 2007.

And I mean, that was, I mean, so the lead up, I mean, I remember at the time there was all these clocks where if you're in Shanghai, like the countdown to Beijing, Beijing 2008. And the whole world got to see like the incredible opening ceremony with the drums and everything. I mean, but it was also, it was China's coming out party, right? Yeah. Then two years later, Shanghai hosted the World Expo, which was incredible. And so, I mean, you just had these major events in, you know, coming in China and it was just opening up everything. It felt like, okay, we're-

Trending in the right direction. We're trending in the right direction. Everything, I mean, Shanghai was the place to be. I mean, that was the place to be. And I was here and I was like, wow, like this is incredible. And I mean, it was just, you know, I think a lot of the U.S.-China relationship, unfortunately, it is, it kind of starts with the U.S. and China's very reactionary. You know, that's what I always feel is that, for example, you've seen the

the dislike for China has increased. It's increased first from the Chinese, from the American side. And then there's a flip side. Now Chinese now kind of, okay, well look at all this negative media coverage that you've been doing. And, you know what I mean? COVID didn't help. I mean, and just, it was really difficult. You know what I mean? I remember. But it's also the local media really pushing that agenda. Yeah. So it works both sides. It does. It does. And it really does. But I mean, the problem is. And you get defensive. You get very defensive people.

You do get defensive. I mean, and it is difficult as well because I remember, you know, there was a German reporter that was working for Deutsche Welle. And remember the floods that happened maybe a couple years ago? And so anyways, he goes to the flood area and he basically, he looks very similar to this BBC reporter.

And so all of a sudden he's surrounded by Chinese people. He's like, hey, you're that BBC reporter guy. Oh God. Right? And so, and they're kind of getting really angry at him. And, you know, you kind of see him stuttering in like, you know, very thick German accent, but he's stuttering in English, you know, like, oh no, like this is not me. No, please. You know, I do not know. No, this is not me. Please stand here. You know, it's just kind of, kind of really speaking broken English and,

And anyways, he goes on Twitter and he's like, well, I've been living here for a long time. I speak fluent Chinese. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, time out, buddy. I'm like, you speak fluent Chinese? I'm like, bro, you struggled in English. And so I'm like, and I called him out in a video and I just said, look,

if you spoke fluent Chinese, why are you not speaking Chinese? Right. You could immediately diffuse that situation and just be like, Hey, I'm here to cover the floods. Like, that's what I do. And let me just, and just be like, Hey, like I support you guys. Like this is a tough time, right? Like you just had a devastating flood. People have been dying here, but you know, but all of a sudden, you know, Western media is coming in. It's like, Oh, this is all the government's fault. You know, this is that it's like, Jesus, the tragedy guys, like, come on, like, let's,

But I just remember these kind of claims like that, sometimes it really bothers me when people, for example, we've had, you need people, again, that's why I'm kind of back here for this trip and I'm excited for this trip because you need to be here on the ground in China, right? You need to be on the ground and I think you need to be able to speak Chinese. You need to be able to speak to the local people. Well, I can imagine, I mean, I can imagine coming from you,

the importance of being back here because your content is about China and the United States. So I feel like you need to be here to get, you know, to get on the ground experience again, because you have, you've been away for a while. You do. I mean, and, and I mean, I have a good excuse because the country was closed for three years with COVID. So, but I mean, that's where, you know, I talked to my wife, you know, I mean, we've got three small kids back home and, you know, it's a lot of pressure for her to take care of the kids while I'm gone. But I said, Hey honey, you know, like we,

- Exactly, like I gotta be there. I mean, I can't, it's hard for me to, again, it's interesting 'cause I have such a passion for China, but I would be honest, like over the last couple of years and especially since moving back to America, my China connection started to kind of wear off a little bit where I'm just like, you know what? I need to get back on the ground. I need to kind of see it with my own eyes

You get a little out of touch. You do, you do. And it'll happen to anybody. But all of a sudden, you know, I had a great conversation with my taxi driver down here. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm just, you know, I rode the maglev down into town, which is always a fun ride. I mean, it's just like, okay, I just need to get back and see what China's like. Do you have any expectations on this trip? I don't. That's a great question, Howie. I mean, my expectations is just to be open-minded, you

I don't want to come here with preconceived notions that... Because I don't want to come here and be like, hey, everybody, China's amazing. Everything's back to normal. Let's be honest. I know the economy's not where it needs to be. I know that unemployment... I'd love to go talk to some youth and be like, hey, you're 21. What's the deal? How are you feeling about your future right now? I want to provide some of that content. I'm not here to... My goal with this trip is not to come and say...

hey, everything's just amazing in China. It's the best place ever. Everything you hear in Western media is complete nonsense. It's just more like, let's talk to some real people. Let's go see some things. But it's also to provide that context as well, because for example, again, I think so many people, they don't have that connection into China. So I've got to

all my friends in Las Vegas, they are so excited for me to go back to China. My whole group of friends, they, you know, they now know China because of me. But yeah, I don't have any expectations. I just want to kind of come see what is China like in 2023? That's my question. So I want to answer that question to myself. There is a question I want to ask you going back to this, going along with this whole idea of bridging the gap, right? Yeah. And making connections with people. And, you know, you mentioned that

you know, in the States you were having conversations with normal people, for example, like you mentioned your neighbor, right? Yeah. But the whole social credit score thing. Yeah. What is typically, how, how do those conversations go typically? I mean, do they end up well? Is there, is there some sort of like,

logical kind of back and forth where you guys, like, you feel like you've achieved something? Yes. Or does it not usually go well? I tell you, I mean, I can honestly say I've been back in the U.S. for 10 months now.

And I have not, I've yet to have a conversation where there has not been progress made and there's not been that person leaving the conversation with more nuance and a little bit more perspective. And I'm talking like, I'll speak to this far right on the political spectrum and as far left, I mean, both sides, you know, we'll speak, you know, to a variety of people. Now for myself, I kind of grew up in a more conservative household. I grew up in like a Christian household and even my kids, you know, we send them to a Christian school in Las Vegas

And so the community there, as you can imagine, is pretty – is almost all Republican, very Republican, very right, which you would tend to think would be a little bit more anti-China.

And the interesting thing is, is I think what people, you know, the first thing that's always nice to kind of open up with is, you know, as I'll, I'll, I'll always say like, oh, I used to live in China for many years. And kind of the first question is like, oh, do you speak Chinese? And it's like, I do speak Chinese. And then people are like, oh, that's awesome. Like you speak. So that's kind of like the first little entryway in there. There's like a true curiosity there. Yeah. Because it's like, wow, you speak Chinese. I'm like, I do speak Chinese. You know, I can speak Chinese and, you know, um,

you know, I have a great passion for China. I actually run a YouTube channel about US and China. And then the next thing is kind of like, oh, YouTube, like, like a lot of people are like, wow, like I heard like, you know, a lot of people are doing YouTube full time. Like you can make money on YouTube. Like you can, you can, I'm like, oh, you know, it's a, it's a legit career. You know what I mean? It's a great opportunity. It's a great, it's a great business. I mean, it's, it's, it's yeah. I mean, I love, I love YouTube. I love China. I love speaking Chinese. And then it's always like, well,

what about this in China? And so it kind of, I'll pique their curiosity. And then I'm like, yeah, ask me any question you want to about China, right? And so usually it kind of goes more along the lines of, well, when you were living there, did you feel this really powerful

big pressure from the government. Like you're just under the communism every day, you know, people everywhere, there's machine guns in the streets, like everyone walking down the street, like, you know, is there, are there armed guards on every corner watching your every move? Do you have to surrender your us citizenship? You know, is it, how is it to feel the pressure of the government on you every day? That's kind of the normally where the, the, the, the story goes.

And for me, it's always like, well, no, I mean, to be honest, your life in China is very normal. You know what I mean? It's very normal. I mean, again, I mean, if you are...

You're just living a normal life. I mean, if you're an expat there, you've got a job. So you're working your job. You're doing your job. You're making friends. I said, the nice thing about being an expat is it's a very lively community. You're usually going out a lot. You're meeting other expats. You're meeting other Chinese. Well, I think the bottom line is just that coming from the States where I grew up and now living in Shanghai, life is...

Life is more similar than it is different. And I think if there's any like one message to kind of get across that would kind of frame it in a way I think people could more understand and believe it's

It's true, it's just that our lives are more similar than they are different. - Yeah, and I completely-- - And we want to exaggerate these differences. - And I completely agree. Life in China is more similar than different. I mean, what freedoms do you not have here, you know, when you're working here as an expat or something that you don't have back home? Sometimes people say, well, you know, what about guns? You know, in China, you don't have guns. And I say, you know what, you're right.

And no, I'm not a big gun fan. I've never owned a gun. I think I've shot a gun maybe once. It's just not, I'm not a big fan. So for me, I'm like, well, here's an interesting perspective for you. I said, in China-

And you can go out at 2 o'clock in the morning. You can go out with your friends to a bar. You can walk out at 2 o'clock in the morning. You can have a nice watch on. You can be wearing brand name designer if you want. You can have a wad full of cash, although China is cashless. But I mean, you could walk out with your wallet, your nice cell phone, your watch on at 2 o'clock in the morning at any street in Shanghai and nothing will happen to you. Yeah.

You cannot do that inside of any major city in the United States, right? You're not going out past 10 a.m. rolling like that, or 10 p.m., right? You're not. The equivalent is New York City. You're not doing that in New York City. Yeah, you're not doing that in New York City. You're not doing that at Atlanta, L.A., Chicago. I mean, you're not doing any

major city, you're not doing that. You're not going out looking like that at that time. So I said, you're right. There is no guns there, but you enjoy, I said, let's be honest. Like, like the school shootings is, is a very personal thing for me. It's, I think it's an absolute disease that it's unfortunate. It's an incurable disease that will not get solved in the United States.

and we're the only country that's infected by it. And so for me, I'm like, I will happily trade in my right to own a gun to live in a society where I don't have to worry about that.

I mean, as you guys know, I mean, our gun violence is absolutely idiotic. I mean, it's just beyond stupid. It's insane. You cannot wrap your head around it. And this is something that, you know, for you guys living here and when I lived here for many years, I mean, and even for me in Canada, I mean, it doesn't exist. You don't have to worry about that. That is not a fear that you have here. And so even some people are like, well,

You know, that's an interesting perspective, you know, that you don't, you know, have that because obviously, you know, for example, at our school where our kids are at, you know, we're having fundraisers to, you know, to have armed security guards there, you know, because, you know, and so we do. I mean, we have armed security guards out there with, you know. This is in Vegas? This is in Vegas, absolutely. Okay.

And my Canadian friends are like, are you serious? Like you're sending your kids to a school with an armed security guard? Like he's packing heat. But I can understand. And I'm like, yes, because you're in America. That's exactly what I understand. Because the alternative is even scarier. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Like I definitely feel better having an armed security guard. I mean-

yeah, don't get me wrong. I'd love to send my kid to a school where we don't need that. We're in America. You need it. Because that's the unfortunate reality of America. You know what's insane? It's like, I'm having conversations with my wife. We are recent parents, right? So we're having conversations about, okay, well, in the future, let's go back to America, schooling and stuff like that. But I'll tell you, my first thought in my mind was that not the America I know now. Like, I feel a little bit more wary now

meaning guns. Yeah. Period. Yeah. You know, like we grew up around guns, you know, it's not like guns is a weird or new thing for us, but it's the idea of mass shootings and the statistics that have come out with mass shootings. Yeah. It's insane. It wasn't really like a thing when we were growing up. No, I mean, I mean, I graduated high school in 2002 and,

And I remember Columbine was 1999, right? So that was my freshman year of high school. And I mean, that was really- That was like our introduction to it. That was the introduction, right? That was really the first mass shooting in a school. I mean, and that rocked the entire country. I mean, absolutely was a massive deal that we all went through. But I mean, we're so out of touch with, I mean, the problem with America right now is that

you know, you have a mass shooting and it's like, well, thoughts and prayers, you know? And, and I mean, like,

- Right, and then the next day you kind of wake up and it's kind of done. - Thoughts and prayers again until the next one. - No, it's done, you know what I mean? Because it's so frequent that that's happening that you just, you're so desensitized, right? You can't have that reaction like 1999 in Columbine because in 1999, we'd never seen anything like that. That was impossible. And then all of a sudden this mass thing shows up and it's like, oh my gosh, like that shell shocked America for months.

And now it's like, well, there's a mass shooting. It's like, oh. It's become normalized. It is. It is.

And so, you know, so I think it's, so again, like sharing that message about China is always providing that nuance and people say, you know, well, you know, like what about free speech, right? Like you can't, you know, you can't go out and say that like, you know, the president, you know, like, you know, what's so great about America is that I can say, go out and say, you know, Joe Biden's an asshole. You know, I can go out and say that and no one's going to give me any beef about that. And I'm like, yeah, but it's also, I said, you're definitely right about that. Okay. Yeah.

But there's kind of two things on that. Number one, great, you get to say that, what does it do? Doesn't do anything. Okay, maybe you release some personal steam. What does it accomplish? It accomplishes nothing. The second thing is, is that in China and Asian societies in general, right, we have this system of meritocracy and respect, right? Asians are very different than that. I mean, I remember I saw a bumper, I took a photo, it was a car, and it says like, you know, Donald Trump is a pussy.

I mean, plastered the full size of his back windshield. And I took a photo of it to show in a video. And I'm just like, yeah, this is America. You have the right to do that. I guarantee you, Chinese people are not going to look at that and be like, wow, I really wish I had that for you. They're not going to envy that. They're not going to envy that. They're going to be like, wow, that's pretty sad of you. They're almost going to look negative on you. Kind of like, wow, that's really sad. That's what you want to do with your car? But the flip side of that is...

I think it's more about what that represents than, than literally saying Donald Trump's a pussy. I think to the American spirit, it's about, well, it's what that, what that ability to do that represents as a whole, in terms of you're, you're spot on. You're definitely, you're spot on with that. Right. And that is the American thing. And again, it's, it's, it's just, it's the same thing with the pandemic. Right. I mean, look at like, for example,

In Asia, everybody wore face masks, right? It's just not a big deal, right? That you just get on with it. In America, it was a political thing, right? The left was all wearing face masks. The right was saying, you can't make me wear a face mask. This is a political statement. It's just a really interesting thing. But I mean, as far as, I mean, I think we just have so many

- Many people are just like, "Man, I wish Chinese people would have the right to vote. If Chinese people could vote for their president, it would be so much better." Here's the interesting thing. I've spoken to Chinese people, and one of the things that they've said is they say, "You know, voting for your president is a really big, that's a huge responsibility."

How much time, Cyrus, are you spending analyzing the presidential candidates, studying what the policies they're going to do, really understanding the Democrats and Republicans to really make a very informed decision? I'm like...

That's a great question. The vast majority of people don't spend any time, right? We just, we vote based on emotions or, or, or kind of historical, like, Hey, we're Republican. You vote Republican. Hey, we're Democrat. You vote Democrat. Who debates better? Like who wins the debates? Or who wins the debates? It's based, but it's based on emotion. Yeah. And that's the same thing where like people look at Donald Trump. It's like, well, how could Donald Trump get elected? You know, he has no political experience.

because he's very good at talking. It's the same reason. He killed it at those debates. But look at Barack Obama, right? He was a phenomenal public speaker. He had no political experience, right? He was a senator for four years and then he became president. But the thing was, is I remember being at, I was at Florida State University. And I remember he, what he did is he opened up the, um,

I think it was the 2004 Democratic National Convention. He was like, yeah, when he first got on, remember when he first got on stage, he gave this phenomenal public speech, but it, but all of a sudden, and I remember I went to school the next day and I was taking like a civics class and he goes, do you guys see that speech last night?

Barack Obama's gonna be our next president. - Yeah, I remember that vividly, yeah. - But he gave this incredible speech that just captivated America. He's so well-spoken and it's your ability, your ability to control a crowd, your ability to gain that attention. And if you can do that in America, you can be president. - Oh yeah, you can get anywhere. - You can get anywhere.

It's the art of storytelling. It's the art of storytelling. And that's how Barack got there. But it's also how Donald got there. And it is very, you know, Donald Trump becoming president was very,

It's exactly what America needed and wanted because that is representative of a large part of the... I mean, he won the election. He beat Hillary. On paper, there was no way that he should have beat Hillary. Do you guys remember that leading up to that election? I mean, no one thought he had a chance. It was basically like, all right, let's get our... He was seen as a joke to most. No one took him seriously. I mean, even until like the election day, everyone's like, well, this is going to be history made. Hillary Clinton, first woman president,

Get your pantsuits ready, ladies. Like Hillary Clinton's coming. And then all of a sudden it's like the votes are coming in. Well, I think that's typical of a lot of societies. You have blind spots as a whole, as a society, as a whole. You have blind spots because, you know, we, in the context of our conversation, we talk so much about media, right? And how, you know, Western media really controls society.

pretty much like 80% of the media signal that you're receiving, even though they represent like maybe like, I don't know, like 20% of the world population. I don't know what the exact number is. But it's these blind spots in terms of the information you get, right? And obviously it goes through many filters because we self-filter in terms of the information we cherry pick and want to listen to. That's a self-filter. But even just as a whole, in terms of information that's out there,

We don't realize like there is, it's like the tip of the iceberg. There is a whole base of that iceberg of information and perspective that most of us, including us, like everyone, we don't usually get. And that's just the reality of kind of like the world we live in. Yeah. And so we have these blind spots where we don't take things seriously. And then, but the reality of the situation is it couldn't be more opposite. Yeah. And I mean, I think for all of us, this is just trying to be

a little bit more informed, trying to see the different, the other side. And that's why I always love having chats with the left and the right in America. I'm a very big believer that there is always a path to working together. And I'll never give up on that hope. I mean, even US and China, like I said, when I started the channel three years ago,

I'm like, I really want to make a better influence. And if we look back, like here we are three years later, yeah, US-China relations, let's be honest, it hasn't improved. It's gotten worse. Let's just be honest. Let's call a spade a spade. But that doesn't stop me from having that dream and that vision that like there is a way for us to work together. And for me, it's like there has to be a way for us to work together because there is no other option.

Right? You know, there is no option to decouple. There is no option of us not working together. I mean, we're the two biggest economies in the world. We're looking at things like climate change and bigger issue things. I mean, China's a permanent member of the UN Security Council. I mean, they're gonna have their seat at the table. You have to find a way to work with China. Yes, it's gonna be different. There's certain things about China that's very different, but it's also...

that's what I'm hoping to do on this trip is provide a little bit of that nuance as well, where we have this perception in America that like, here's 1.4 billion people every day just wishing they could vote for president, every day wishing they had democracy. No, you know what they're wishing for? They're wishing for the same things that millions of Americans are, a good job, a better life, a stable life, my kids can do better, my kids can have a better future than I did. So again, like when...

you know, when my neighbor was just like, what about China? I don't even know if they're going to be able to feed their people. Dude, I took my kids to Subway for $32. Yeah.

I don't even know if I can feed my kids. I don't know if I can feed my kids. It's like, come on, bro. Jeez, it's Subway. It's like, let's focus on the issues at home. You know what I mean? Let's really focus on these issues. I think we all need to stop being so obsessed with the other side. And like,

And whether you're Chinese, we should focus on our own internal issues here. Right. And whether, or whether you're American or from any other country, focus on your own internal, like we get so obsessed with these things that we really have no control over. It's like, it's, it's, it's almost silly in terms of it's, it's like become entertainment for us now in terms of to watch. Don't forget, it's especially, it's a, it's an American thing. You know, it's, it's more so than other countries. Is it though?

Yeah, of course. I mean, America's the world police, you know what I mean? You know, quote unquote. Yeah. So it just feels like we, it's easy to say, and obviously it's true. Like we need to come together. And in order to come together with two, like such diametrically opposed, like systems, uh,

Like there needs to be some sort of compromise, right? And that's like, that's the strange thing I think of it all is that like democracy is like kind of built on compromise, right? Democracy is built on like a diversity of opinions and people being able to express themselves and innately within that, if you have such diverse opinions, compromises need to be made to reach any sort of

decision and move forward. Yet what you see with like foreign policy is that it seems like zero sum. There is no compromising. It very much is zero sum. And it's always, the problem I find with the US and our policies is that it's always my way or the highway. And I think that's one of the things, for example, when, you know, we look at Africa as a continent and we look at,

You know, one of the things that why is China excelled so well in Africa is that there's 54 countries in Africa and China tends to treat every country individually. Whenever a country comes to Africa, let's just say it's the country of Chad and the president of Chad comes to China. Well, they roll out the red carpet exactly the same way that they would roll it out for if Joe Biden came from the U.S.,

I mean, it's, you know, like if you're, no matter if you're the United States or if you're a very small country, you have a very grand welcoming when you're an official diplomat coming to Beijing. We tend to, you know, China tends to treat you very, very, you know, respectfully. And that's the issue is that at our, you know,

Joe Biden led the US Africa summit or whatever it was, the summit for Africa. And basically it's kind of like, well, Africa needs to do this and Africa needs to do that. Africa needs to do this. And that really pissed off the Africans because every one of them was like, well, we're 54 different countries. We don't need this. We need like...

Nigeria needs this, Mozambique needs this. We all have different needs and wants and China tends to listen a little bit better. So again, I make a lot of those videos as more like, hey, this is where we can learn and improve because kind of typical American arrogance, we kind of come in and just broad stroke like, let me show you what you should do in Africa. Like, this is what you need.

And meanwhile, China, you know, a lot with its Belt and Road, the Belt and Road initiative is very fascinating because it's not China coming into these countries saying, hey, we want to build you a bridge. It's the opposite. It's recipient driven. The recipient countries are going to China saying, hey, we want to build this bridge. Well, they're like applying. They're applying, right? And it's like, hey, this is what it's going to cost, but this is the economic benefit. We'll give you this in exchange for that. And-

That's how China's making these deals. Again, I'll be the first to say that China's not perfect and that there are legitimate issues in this country. But again, it's...

it's very hard for me as an American to criticize a lot of these things when I see the U.S. doing the exact same thing. And that is kind of where I'm at there. Well, the hypocrisy is pretty obvious. I mean, we talk about human rights. I mean, there's massive human rights violations in the United States all the time. I mean, it's ridiculous. And I think that's where...

You know, we really have to, you know, the best thing that the United States can do is be that shining example to the world. You know, but we're not. You know, we install coup governments in countries around the world. I mean, we militarily will act in whatever way that is in our best interest. And I mean, we tend to bully. I mean, that's just what we do as Americans. I mean, it's just...

I'm not being biased. It's just, that's, that is the fact, right? I mean, it's just, that's just how it's given our history. I mean, look back at our history and that's unfortunate. That's the system. That's the system in America. Well, the, this reminds me of something that our last guest said on the show, which was, he was a professor of politics here in China, Joseph Gregory Mahoney. And he was saying that the American intelligence agencies are

and the military-industrial complex are really the only part of the American system that really deal with long-term planning. Because the entire rest of the political system changes every four years. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good point. And I had an insight from somebody that had a very close connection to the foreign policy in the United States and basically said, one of the issues that you have as well is that

people that are working on foreign policy between US and China, that are working inside the United States government, they're paid the most because that's the most important job, right? That's the most important relationship is US-China. So he said, you have a lot of issues of people that are, for example, that have experience on US-Mexico, but they're kind of like, well, I want to get more, I want to make more money. So, you know, can I apply for that job for China? And so you have a lot of times where people are necessarily,

being they're being appointed into roles that they don't really have a lot of credentials for. I mean, like, for example, I mean, like, I mean,

If we have a United States ambassador to China, I mean, this guy's got to be fluent in Mandarin. I mean, it has to be. I mean, there's a tremendous amount of Mandarin speakers inside the United States government. But I mean, you've got to get somebody that's switched on and really understands the language and really understands that culture. We cannot have somebody that does not... I mean, how do you be an ambassador to a country and not speak that language? We have been talking...

But I want to understand like, what's your outlook for the future? Like realistically as a human being, as a parent, what's your outlook for the future? Because like, does it feel, and I've said this before in a previous episode, like, does it feel like the work you're doing is just throwing a snowball into a building fire, you know? Given like what Howie was alluding to earlier in our conversation, this massive uphill battle you have with what you're trying to accomplish, right?

How do you see this playing out in the next few years? Like, you know, what's your optimism level? What's your pessimism level? Where do you think all this is, how this is all going to unfold for you? Unfortunately, I would say that I really feel the United States is moving towards a conflict.

i mean if i'm going to be very brutally honest here and that's why i have more urgency to do the work that i do and and to try my best to educate people and just try to provide that nuance and a little bit more perspective that we're not looking at china as this you know oh my god china is trying to destroy you know united united states china's not you know china does not have that intention to china again has a plethora of problems that they have to deal with inside this country that's going to keep them very busy over the next 10 to 20 years

But I mean, I do feel that, you know, I think that common sense will prevail in situations, for example, like, are we going to go to a hot war with China? You know, this would be devastation on a global scale. I mean, there's the economic progress over the last 50 years for the world, you know, gone out the window. And I mean, that would send all of these economies into a massive, massive recession, including our own.

And the issue is, I mean, you look at the Russian sanctions, okay? The Russian sanctions were specifically designed to allow Russia to still export oil, okay?

That's really important to understand because the problem is, is if you completely cut them off 100%, that would have caused a global recession. Okay. Okay, even for the United States. So, I mean, you already look at how screwed Europe is with their, you know, with their access to energy. Germany is in a massive energy crisis. They've already officially entered into recession.

So the Russian sanctions were basically designed to put pressure, but I mean, you know, we're still allowing Russia to function essentially. - Yeah, not break the system. - We're not breaking, we're not, we're not, we're not a hundred, I mean, because if we a hundred percent did it, then it would have been a trade embargo. - So that's an example where common sense prevailed.

That's an example where it's, you know, we're basically, you know, we had to make a response to Russia, right? Like we had to, you know, like what Putin did is wrong. I mean, you know, he invaded, you know, there's been a large conflict there, but I mean, you can certainly make the argument that the United States provoked him, you know, with NATO expansion and things like that. But at the end of the day, I mean, what he did and what he has been doing is wrong. I mean, he's been bombing civilian areas. I mean, there's a lot of things that he's done that has just been horrible. But at the end of the day,

you cannot cut Russia off. Like it just shows you how connected our global economy is because Russia has so much control of that oil and gas that it just would devastate, it would have completely devastated Europe. And that's just something the United States couldn't have happened. And the scale's greater here. And the scale's greater between US and China, right? Like China loses in that scenario as well.

you know, the U.S. economy, all the other economies would be really screwed. So I think what happens is that my prediction is that there's going to be a lot more of increased tensions. But at the end of the day, I think both the U.S. and China understand that, you know,

they cannot go to war. They cannot go to a hot war because it would just be, you know, our two countries go to war. I mean, that's the end of the world as we know it. Remember when Nancy Pelosi, you know, flew to Taiwan? And I think, I mean, I saw on the Chinese side, right? There was a lot of Chinese nationals were like, oh, I wish that the,

Our fighter just should have taken down that plane and just sent a message. There was a lot of that going on. And I'm like, geez, that would have been a disaster, right? I mean, you can't take down Nancy Pelosi's plane. That's just beyond stupid. But China's not stupid. They're not going to do that. There's going to be a lot of talk about...

and stuff. Posturing. Posturing, but at the end of the day, both sides, I think, are too smart and realize what's at stake here. So it's kind of this balancing act that we're going through right now. But I mean, again, like you, you know,

Both sides are not stupid. That's the thing that people don't really understand in America is that, you know, the high people that are in the Communist Party, these are very smart people. I mean, one of the guys that is in the upper five, I mean, he spent the summer of 1988 traveling all through the United States visiting universities, and he wrote a whole book about

America and the universities and studying democracy. I mean, he speaks phenomenal English. I mean, this guy is very well-educated. I mean,

it's incredible, 'cause when you look at it on the counterpart, right? I mean, you have obviously American officials are not, I mean, they don't know China at all. I mean, none of them speak Chinese. None of them know that. - A lot of them never even been here before. - None of them have ever been here. So all of a sudden, like you look at the Chinese counterparts, I mean, like this guy, I mean, he is, pardon me, I don't know his name, but I mean, it's incredible, like,

and again, and a lot of the top officials here have spent a lot of time in the States, many of them studying in the States, many of them studying the States. I think that, I think there was some statistic that I saw of something in like the, the standing committee, like over 50% had been educated in the United States or, or abroad at some point, you know? So it's, it's,

I mean, China's very strategic where, you know, they're learning and, you know, this is where when we're looking at our American politicians where we need to be a little bit more strategic. You know, I'm American. I mean, I want America to do good. I mean, but it's like, you know, so let's analyze it. Why are people choosing China? Things like that.

So anyways, that's the end of the question is I do feel a little bit pessimistic. I'm using that as a motivation to keep going. And I do at the back of my mind, I do realize that I think both sides, US and China are smart enough to realize that they can't get involved in something like a war. I mean, it's just, it would be- God, I hope you're right. It'd be the end of civilization. I really, really hope you're right. It can. I mean, it'd be-

It'd be awful. It'd be the end of the world. Yeah. I mean, but I'm coming from my own personal kind of like, I don't know. I feel like through the years, my faith in humanity has, I'll put it this way, has not improved. Okay. And so I really, really hope you're right for all our sakes. Absolutely. Well, I think one of the things you'll note about me is I'm a very positive person. I'm always going to look on the, I'm always this, you know, this glass is actually half empty.

Well, it's actually full empty right now. Do you need another? No, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. But I appreciate it. No, guys, thank you so much for having me on the show today. Thank you for coming. It was so serendipitous for me to be back in China. And Justin, shout out to you, buddy. I mean, you sent me a message like 24 hours ago and you're like, let's make it happen. Because I saw you post last minute, you're coming here. I'm like, oh yeah, you're coming. Okay. Well, the funny thing, I'm like, if the only way that I can do it is I got to see you first.

Like I gotta just come right in. Like I haven't checked into my hotel. I'm going to bring the suitcases. Let's just bang it out. Let's get the podcast out. So guys, thank you so much for, for being here and guys, why don't you just tell everybody how they can find your podcast? Cause we're going to put this on the YouTube channel, but how do they, how do they subscribe? Give a little shout out to the fans and, um,

Yeah, well, we're pretty much on any major podcast platform you can find. Spotify, Apple, any of the other ones, Google Podcasts, whatever podcast app you use will be on there. In China, we're on Xiaoyuzhou, Shimalaya, Wangyi. Perfect. Yeah.

- Right. - Yeah, and we have a little YouTube channel, but it's not really our main thing. We're mostly an audio platform, yeah. - Fantastic, so we're gonna put the show, we're gonna put the links to everything, right? We'll put all the links to the podcast, to the YouTube channel. - Yeah, yeah, and vice versa, everything. - We'll put that in the description, so.

guys Justin Howie thank you guys so much it's so fun to come here have a couple drinks with you guys and be here in Shanghai you have a beautiful studio thank you that is in the heart of like the you know the downtown of Shanghai but in kind of the old alleyways yeah it's a wonderful little neighborhood it's a beautiful neighborhood you should check out some of the restaurants out there when you walk if you're hungry because I know you haven't eaten yet yeah I'm definitely I'm going to be grubbing it up in China for sure

Thank you so much for everything you've done, not only for me, but just the content you make. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for making the time to come here on our podcast. I know you have a tight schedule, but man, thank you. I think you're just a wonderful human being and everything you do, I support. Thank you, man. It means a lot. I'm so glad we could spend some time together. Yeah, it was awesome. All right. Thanks, guys. All right. That was Cyrus. I'm Justin. And I'm Howie. All right. Be good and be well. Peace. Peace. As the sun goes behind.

I wish I was a man.