#125. Jason Smith: Crossing The Bridge
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Okay, don't, no. No, no, pour more, pour more into this. God.

Oh, you poured so much into my- This is- Oh, man. See? Oh, my God. This guy. We can't take it anymore. Look, we rarely get Baijo on the show, right? Especially Mongolian Baijo, where you really taste the journey. I know what happened. That is Baijo from Inner Mongolia. A great gift from our guest. Comes in a beautiful flask. Awesome gift. Yeah. Yeah. It comes in a beautiful metal flask, but it is harsh, man. It's a beautiful gift, but it kicks your ass. Yeah, we had a great time on his podcast. Yeah.

And now he's on our podcast. Yeah, we're building bridges. You've got that raspiness to your voice. No, because of the baijiu, man. The baijiu? Yeah, it's been burning my throat. By the way. I think to myself, what a wonderful world. So the New York Times. That was the worst impression. Dude. The skies are blue. That's pretty good. Okay. Anyway, cheers. Let's take one more swig of this. Woo! Woo!

It smells so great. I actually smell camel. I actually taste camel. I don't taste camel's ass. I smell hoof. Like a hoof. Oh, man. That is Bai Zhou from... I think I taste Genghis Khan. I know Genghis Khan now after drinking that. It is Genghis Khan in a bottle. It conquered my body. Yeah. I understand why he was so mad now. All right.

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying the show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. This episode is brought to you by Nespresso, our coffee of choice before recording this episode. All right. Our guest is the host of The Bridge Podcast and social media influencer with 900,000 fans. He's been

He's been living in China for 11 years and seeks to build a bridge between his American home and his Chinese home through dialogue and understanding. This was a real fun conversation. So without further ado, please give it up for Jason Smith. This is like a new phenomenon. It's like short circuit. Should we pop this open?

If you are brave, I'm only going to have this much alcohol to take down on you. Which means that's how much you're going to leave in your glass. Yeah, yeah. Jason. And how long has the...

Whatever is in there, the liquid in that container in there have been in there for... I have no idea. It could have been decades. So wait, this is Baijiu? This is Baijiu from Inner Mongolia. So we were... My wife and I were just in Ho Hat last week. And I was almost unconscious from some kind of like stomach bug. And they, Liu Ming, reached out to you guys and scheduled this show. So I was like, okay...

This is the honest drink, right? There needs to be some kind of drink. And I don't want to come empty-handed, right? Mom always taught you, bring some flowers or a bottle of wine or something. So I brought you guys some Baijiu. Thank you. You are a good boy. If it's from Inner Mongolia, I have a feeling that it's going to be pretty strong. I'm just going to taste it. Wait, what was that? What was that? You know what? You guys aren't going to scare me. Nothing came out. I was...

I was just sitting down with governors the other night and I managed to have one shot with them. So you guys aren't going to manage. Well, cheers, Jason. Yeah. Let's try this. Let's try this Bajo. The first of many drinks, Jason, for this episode. I love how there was an option of a normal sized glass and you chose the mini, the thimble.

By the way, to visualize, Jason has a thimble right now. Yeah, that's what I'm going for. Actually, I was thinking of the thimble. Yeah. It is 62% percent. And it is 100%. It's probably flammable. That tastes like it's been in that flask for decades. Well, you know, it's not Maotai, so it's not the high end. This is just like, you know...

- Ho-hot grocery store by Joe. - Like us common folk, that's how we do it. - The classy stuff. - That's how we do it. - How you been Jason? - I have been traveling a lot lately, so much. And I'm gonna be traveling a lot. So I'm like in the middle of like infinite travels, it seems. - Infinite travels. So is this travel for work or just pleasure? What do you do? - Kind of both. I mean, I vlog, that's what I do. I vlog and I make podcasts, as you guys know.

And I went to Jiangxi three weeks ago and I went to Jingdezhen, which is the home of where they make porcelain. So apparently, like I guess about a millennia ago, the emperor said, these places must make porcelain. You are in it by imperial decree. These different cities throughout China must make porcelain. And Jingdezhen was just like the best at it. So they became like the best.

home of porcelain from about 1300 or 1400 for hundreds of years around the world. All of those magnificent tea sets in Britain that mom never uses that are behind glass and they're getting dusty. They're only for when the president comes over. They probably come from Jingdezhen. Really? Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So I went there and then we went to this village called Huangling nearby. 20 years ago, Huangling was like on the rocks, like, you know, not doing well economically. And the government set up a

like a policy for rural revitalization where they turned it into a tourist hub. So it has really cool things in it that weren't there 20 years ago, like an upside down room and like cable cars and like, what's an upside down room.

It's a house that's built inverted so that when you go in, it looks like you're walking on the top of the house and they've attached like the table to the ceiling and stuff. So when you're standing inside the room, it looks like you're standing upside down. And there's a few different rooms in this house. What's the point of that though?

For the photos. Oh, just photo ops. Photo ops, yeah. Oh, no, I thought this was like a historical thing. No, no, no. Okay, okay. No, they're trying to draw tourists into this place. Historical? Yeah, I'm like, why would they have done that back in the day? That's how they made porcelain, upside down. Back in the day.

In ancient times. No, this all happened in the last couple decades. And so now it's bustling. Apparently 30,000 tourists visit this tiny little town every day. Wow. That's a lot. I got to stay inside of the little town in like someone's old home from, I don't know, 100 years ago or whatever. It was pretty cool.

When I opened the door in the morning, there were already tourists outside. And of course, they're like, La Wai. So I was like, yeah, that's me. And people are just nice to me, you know, because I get a lot of people who point at me and just say, oh, La Wai. And, you know, I've heard people complain about that in the past. But honestly, for me, it's like people usually treat me better. They're like, oh, it's the guest. Let's treat the guest nicely. Here's a funny thing. I was debating, I think, with my mom the other day.

No, actually it was my dad. And he was using the word laowai in public. And for some reason, it felt like the way he said it, it sounded derogatory. You know what I mean? So I'm wondering, as a white guy, is that word laowai offensive to you at all? No. Or could it be? I've heard people complain, but I've never felt that way. In fact, my wife, who's Chinese, she and I have a game. When

When we're together and we see some white dude, right, we always like yell, la-wai, and then both like pretend like we're not the one that did it to see how they react. And, you know, whoever gets to see them first and calls it like gets a point. And for like if we're out in the public, we try to get the most amount of points. And you can only do that with la-wai. You can't use any other like, you know, with any other race. You can't do that.

Well, the funny thing though is like, that's, if you come to Shanghai, it's the, you know, the score is going to be like a thousand and, you know, especially after the pandemic, I guess, I don't know if it's officially ended here, but it officially ended in the US. You're like, it's like every moment. Yeah. I noticed that since I got here yesterday, that there's a lot more like international folks. You can't really play that. You gotta level up. But here's the thing. If someone just calls it to you to your face and you know, they're not like,

meaning you any harm, I don't think it'd be offensive. But like, if you were like standing in line somewhere in public,

and there was someone behind you and they weren't talking to you, but you knew they were talking about you. Yeah, I hear that all the time. And then you heard the word laowai, would you be like, oh, they're talking shit? I know. I usually actually engage with them immediately. And I'm just like, usually it's actually... In their face? You're like, yes. You turn right around. Yeah, like, hey, what's up? No, really, honestly, the best way to engage with people is just to smile. If you smile at them and just engage with them, people are happy to do it. Like, that's cool. Most of the time it's kids. They're like...

Mama, mama, la, why? That most of the time, it's some kid telling their parent that they noticed me. You can tell the negativity bias that we all have. So you definitely hear more la, why than wag warren.

I hear both, but I think it's about equal in Beijing. I'm not sure what it's like in China. I don't want to harp on this too long. I have a question for you, you gentlemen, because when you speak Chinese, do you get people noticing that you're not from around these parts, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And you get the same term? No. No. Because they think that...

they guess that we're from another part of China. We're from Malaysia, we're from Singapore. Some of them can actually, some of them hear the American, slight, subtle American Chinese accent and they can tell. But you'd have to kind of have lived different places. Some people think we're from Taiwan. And,

some of our families. Yeah, they would never call us Laowai. I've never been called a Laowai. And in my understanding, they wouldn't, they would, Laowai has a, because if we, without getting too technical, right, breaking down the term, but I think from the Chinese perspective, Laowai is really only for a, like a, like a non-Asian foreigner. Hmm.

Yeah, you wouldn't call someone from Japan or Korea. No, yeah, exactly. Even though they are foreigners, they wouldn't call them Laowai. What do they get called? Waigou Ren. Waigou Ren. Okay, it's very special. Hold on, let's call this out to the local. Is that true or not? Yeah, fact checker. Japanese, Koreans, Laowai. Waigou Ren. Don't say Laowai, right?

You say urban. What about the Hong Kong version? Was it like Guilo or something? Oh, Guilo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guilo would be a white guy too. I don't think they would call a Japanese guy Guilo. Yeah, white dude. That would be weird. It's like ghost dude. Yeah, yeah, ghost. I never understood like really ghost? Why? What is the connection? Well, I'm speculating here and I'm not speaking from any kind of specific knowledge, but...

- If you're from Korea, if you're from Japan, if you're from the surrounding regions, there are probably economic and political relationships going back hundreds, if not thousands of years. And at some point, foreigners, quote unquote, from Europe came over and there was probably a term to describe them. And that probably also helped distinguish the fact that these were newer people that came from a very, very, very far place versus like Japan where actually there was

dialogue and communication over a period of time. I'm just speculating, but you have to assume. That makes sense. And plus, you're also in Asia, so yeah, so you'd be like in the Asian community, you know? So it wouldn't be like, I mean, I think there's a certain kind of, you know, even though a lot of them hate each other, but there's a certain kind of bond, I think, within Asians in terms of referencing. You know, going back to what you were saying earlier about the derogatory nature of it, honestly, I don't think I've ever heard it done in a derogatory way.

Ever. I mean, I've seen people who were not, who didn't like each other, but it was never related to them being a foreigner in my personal experience that I've had here. It was never like, we don't like you because you're a foreigner. I've never seen that. But every time I do see it used, because I'm just trying to like put myself in their shoes.

would it come off as offensive? Even though I know it's like, it's not said in like a derogatory spirit. You know, I do know a one gentleman, I don't want to say his name, obviously, but he seems to think that it's not something he enjoys being called. And I never really got it. And he got into a debate with other people about it in my presence. And I was just like, bit my tongue and like, I have no comment on this because it seems like he was creating a problem where there didn't need to be one. Right. Is his last name Y? Yeah.

Actually, no, I've been called that way a lot of times in work. So your accent's thicker then. Is it like a joke or do they mean it? No, even just like in conversation. Like, for example, if we're talking about...

we're shooting something because I work as a director and be like, I'm shooting something and be like, oh, 老外的角度有点不一样, you know, like, they'll say it that way. Is that just their nickname for you because you're the American there? No, it's called 老外, it just comes out because they know that I'm American and so they'll say 老外, you know, it just comes out. Okay.

Okay. There's a lot of context. Yeah. There's a lot of context. It doesn't have to be white. I just think it's just foreigners. In my experience, it was always referring to a white person. It was never... Yeah, and it's a differentiating term. It's...

I've heard it, not to go, we should probably pivot from this, but I'll say one last thing. Two hours later. We do talk a lot about culture on the show. It is used collectively to somehow maybe stereotype or to simplify the thinking of a group of people.

And so you would say, oh, this group of people does this. It's an easy way to kind of just create that description. I can imagine in Howie's setting, you've got a bunch of people, you've got the director, he's got certain ways of doing things. They've worked with different types of directors. And so that differentiating thing is like, oh, this guy coming in, he's got these viewpoints and they bucket him in with all the other American directors. So it's a way of sort of differentiating bucketing, but it can create some negativity as well.

Feels like they're all ganging up on you at your work. Oh, they all are. Yeah. I'm kidding. That's a joke. Aren't you the boss when you're the director? Or is the producer the boss? Depends what you ask. Depends what you ask. I

I have to listen to the producer at times, but I will, you know, fight back as well. But at the end of the day, they are going to give me the money. So I got to listen. It's like, where's your fucking paycheck coming from? Exactly. My father used to say who, who, who has the gold and the golden rule is who has the gold makes the rules. So,

So can we hop on a little bit about, because you say you are traveling right now a little bit through personal, a little through work, right? So in terms of work, is it just more through vlogging? Well, here, coming here today, for example. Awesome. This is work. They were like, hey, do you want to go? I was like, I don't know.

But I was like, yes. I was half unconscious. I slept for like 36 hours or something. And when I woke up, I had already agreed to come. So this is like a chore for you being on the show. No, I'm just joking. No, I actually really love traveling. So any opportunity that I get to travel, whether I pay for it or not. So for example, my wife and I, in about a month, we're going to...

Chengdu, Chongqing, Yicheng, and Wuhan. That's our own dime. I've never been to Sichuan or Chongqing, so that's really exciting for me.

I'm also just come back from Inner Mongolia. My wife and I paid for that trip. I'm also going to Xinjiang. Actually, my goal is by the end of next year to have traveled to every province and every special administrative zone and everywhere in China. Can you also describe a little bit about in terms of the work side? So what does that mean when you're visiting these other places? Well, I have – you know, it was really interesting because I do a lot – I work for CGTN.

But I have autonomy. Almost 99% of everything I do is completely me. So I write the shows. I choose usually who's going to be on the show. I create the bullet points. I engage with everyone. No one's telling me what kind of content –

to produce, oftentimes it's like, we're going to take a trip. Would you like to go? Sure. And then I get there and I just make, I say whatever I want to say and make up whatever I want to make up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's incredible though.

Yeah. What would you say is your ratio, Howie? Like what you get to do? He's like, he's living the life, put it that way. 99%. You call the shots. What I would say is this, if I come up with a bad idea, sometimes it'll be like, that's not interesting. I want to do, I wanted to do, and this was with my producer here. I wanted to do about, there was a billionaire who was trying to make himself young.

And he had hired doctors that were costing something like $20 million a year. He had full-time paid physicians on call just for this organ. Okay, you're my doctor for this organ. You're my doctor for that organ. You're my skin doctor. And he was paying all of these physicians full-time to make him look and feel as young as he possibly could by taking all the right food and vitamins. And they were like, that's not Andrew. Sorry.

She said, that's not an interesting story. It wasn't about politics, but it was more like, oh, that sounds like some sort of sci-fi thing. Don't do it. So, okay, but...

Generally, everything I want to do, I just do. And that's just what happens. Wait, can we talk about that then on the show if it didn't make it onto your show? Because that's really interesting to me. You know where I don't, I didn't know this guy. I find my stories on like CNN and BBC and, you know, The Verve or whatever. I go and I find what's trending. If I can find it more than one place, I'm like, okay, people are interested in this, right? Okay, so that sounds fun. Let's talk about that. Like your show, it's very much a culture show.

So, mostly we talk about stuff that's in health and technology, society, that kind of stuff. Yeah, well, there's also an element, though, and I'd be curious to get your take, since you are kind of under the CGTN umbrella, right? And being a content creator, a podcast host yourself...

I would say we're a culture and society, right? That's kind of our thing. But we've found it, especially in this day and age, kind of pretty hard to avoid politics to a certain degree as well. Is that difficult for you guys to kind of steer away from politics? Or is that something like...

Or is that kind of like sometimes an elephant in the room that like you guys have to just address as well? Well, our show seeks to build bridges between China and the West. So one of the things that we do frequently, a couple times a year, I would say, lately, and hopefully someday we won't have to, is anti-Asian hate crime in the West. Because it's not just in the United States. And it's in Australia. It's in the UK also. So that's an issue that I keep bringing back around because it stays relevant. Because you see these spikes where increased –

From 2020 to 2021, 339% increase in anti-Asian hate crimes in the United States specifically. So that's something that is political. It's not just society. And so topics like that are very relevant and need to be addressed. Like you say, it's an elephant in the room. You have to talk about it if this is the sort of scope of the show that you're doing. Yeah. In terms of, you know, because I know early on, like pretty much all the way through the pandemic, like,

there was all these Asian hate crime headlines that I was seeing.

Has it gone down since then? Like I haven't really seen so many headlines now. Is it just not being talked about as much or is it just like kind of less hate crimes going on? There was a journalist. I don't remember exactly where she was in California, but it was somewhere in the Bay Area. And she wrote an article on her own blog about – or her blog about this. And I read this because she went to her producer and said, oh, it happened again. I found this instance. I'd like to report it. And her producer was like, no.

that's not, uh, we've already did that last week. We're over it. We're moving on. So,

The statistics, according to the FBI, which I read from last year, say that it's still steadily rising. It's not increasing to the same extent it was increasing from 2019 to 2022. But it is still steadily rising. But it's holding about – it represents about 6% of total hate crime in the United States, according to the FBI website. So 6%.

of hate crime and do we know

what percentage of the population that that demographic that they're looking at represents. - Actually, I don't know off the top of my head. - How do you define hate crime? Or how does the FBI define hate crime? - Yeah, that's a good point because oftentimes you can't prove that it was a hate crime. Yeah, so it's probably much higher actually because being able to say that this crime was definitely a hate crime, say someone comes into like a Korean shop in Los Angeles and starts banging up the stuff with a baseball bat.

well, was that a hate crime or was that guy just insane? Or like, what was, how do you determine if that, I mean, if he's crazy, he's like, I hate Koreans or whatever. You can even have someone of the same race do a hate crime. Right. So it is, it is a bit tricky. And so we have to be careful. It could be religiously related. So we have to be, but it seems that at least the perception and also some of it could be, it's been reported on. There was one recently, uh,

I was looking on LinkedIn and some of my friends and there was something around Dallas and it was pretty bad because... And this is how they identified that it was hate crime was that the perpetrator was... Well, first of all, the perpetrator was not Asian. And then second of all, he had...

a lot of materials around like this super right-wing white supremacist kind of stuff. Is it the mall shooting you're talking about? I think it might be the mall shooting. And the family got killed? Yeah, yeah. Left an over six-year-old? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was pretty bad. But then you don't know. You don't know if just the media these days are reporting on it more. More of the producers are saying, yep, green light. So it's hard to say, but it is scary. It's really scary. Yeah, I think what Jason just said about media...

being like, I'm over this as an overarching topic because it's not so hot anymore, or maybe it's less hot than what we want to talk about, is one thing. But also if you actually, like for me, I follow a few accounts on Instagram that tend to focus on Asian-related stories, and that's constant still. It's just nonstop feed still. And so to me, it feels like it's as bad as it's ever been, but I don't know.

Yeah, this reminds me of the video you shared, that FBI video about what to do during a mass shooting. Oh my god. Did you see that video? I did see that. The first 10 seconds I was like, is this comedy? Yes, exactly. I told him that. I was waiting for the punchline for the entire thing. I'm like, wait, oh, this isn't a joke. Yeah, it's a new world.

I was telling him like when we were growing up in the States, like if that video would have been like absurd. Yeah. When we were growing up and now it's actually practical. Let's give context to it. What are we talking about? Yeah. About the video. That's a good point.

You share the video. So it's a video basically teaching other Americans what to do when a mass shooting or when a shooting happens in a public space. So it's one is run, two is hide, and three is defend yourself, right? So basically those are like the three ways and they kind of play it out in these videos.

you know, mini stories of... It's like a little short film. It's like they've normalized it. It's like you go on an airplane and it tells you how to put on your mask or if something happens. But we've never normalized something that is considered so rare or it was considered so rare, but now we've deemed it

perhaps frequent enough or it's something that could happen that we need to do a training video on it. It's a PSA. It's a public service announcement. It's crazy. And like I said, it's crazy now that it's actually practical advice now.

Like, those tips are actually practical. Or considered. Like, how to stop a gunshot, like, how to treat a gunshot wound, apply direct pressure if it's bleeding, find a tourniquet, you know, how to defend yourself. Like, these, that's all practical advice now. Did anybody check to make sure that that was, like, literally released by the FBI? I don't know. I didn't. But it was trending on Twitter a couple days ago. That's when I saw it. Oh, really? Howie, anything Howie sends, I know it's legit. It has to be legit. Yeah.

Eric, bring your cup over here. Bring it over. I know that a lot of people were making fun of the fact that it was becoming normal. People from other nations were attacking the United States culture about this because they were like, this is your problem. It's embarrassing. It is embarrassing.

So I think, you know, obviously there are a lot of different ways to approach that topic. But yeah, this is kind of a political topic that we would talk about this on our show as well. But it's not something we would probably build a show around because in the United States, you have people who are on both sides fighting really hard for their narrative to come to fruition.

And I generally don't choose sides in American political debates on my show because it's alienating to the people listening. If they're like, oh, you clearly don't like our position, we're going to not listen to your show anymore. Yeah. Well, I want to get really real with you for a second in terms of like – I mean, because I feel this a little bit on our own show. I feel like if we harp on the issues in America for too long, right?

kind of being who we are and living where we are and being a show that's, you know, based in Shanghai. I feel like

Like, people will just be like, oh, you're just trying to spew anti-American propaganda, you know? You're just focusing on that, you know, because of... I feel like you get, like, labeled that sometimes. I'm not saying you. I get labeled that way. The general you, right? I do get labeled that all the time. I get so much... I've had my life threatened so many times on Twitter, specifically Twitter, to

Twitter is a very violent place and a lot of people are like, I'm going to kill you or like when you come back to the United States, whatever. It's like, dude, I was just like hanging out with my mom in the States like having Taco Bell. What are you talking about? I don't really... Anyways. So yeah, it...

It can be, you know, I think if you're going to have a show like this, like either of our shows, it's important to lay out what you stand for to some extent. But I also feel like it's important to not step on things that I don't have a vested interest in because there's so many different things going on in the world. I don't feel like I'm such an expert on everything that I need to weigh in on like every single topic. So if Pakistan and India are having a confrontation, I'm

I'm not going to say, you know, like, oh, I think this because it's not relevant. So I try to stay on topics that are relevant to me, that I'm well read about, that matter to my show, that matter to my fans and focus on that as opposed to try to become one of those people who has an opinion on everything that's happening. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way of putting it.

Yeah, and I feel that because it's like we try to bring everything back to like a personal experience level, right? And, you know, this is something we talk about all the time on the show is like being Chinese American. Living in this moment of like historical tension, it's a weird kind of space we're in right now, I think. And it's one facet of many. And so I think what you're saying is a great reminder that our experience –

is in part defined by where we grew up and who we are and all that stuff. But then we get the agency to define and to chart out like where we want to be. And so I think we do bring on different guests with different perspectives. And then we're more asking questions and understanding to see if we can apply things back down to that personal level. But I'm also quite wary of, you know, the show sort of like maybe somehow,

um, subtly moving in directions that maybe one day, and then you realize, and we've seen this with other YouTubers and podcasters where it's like, wait a minute, you started off just doing fucking reviews of restaurants and life in China. And then now you're a fucking propaganda machine. Like I'm never going to sign up for that. Right. Like it's for us, it's more about, we happen to live here. We think it's,

an opportunity to learn from people, but I think it just transcends just China. I think we're trying to just see like, if you happen to be in Shanghai, okay, well, let's talk, let's learn about certain things, but it's not just about the experience of being in China. It's gotta transcend that a bit in some ways.

Yeah, I mean, I totally feel you. Your show clearly comes from a slightly different perspective than my own. But as an American in China, which we share in common, like that is a lot about what I do on the Bridge podcast. What I do is like, hey, I'm an American. I'm living in China. I like both places. Let's get along. And then people, individuals or different ideas that make that not jive –

That is something I point out. Hey, why is that? Why can't we be great trade partners? Why can't we get along? Why can't our cultures share with, why can't students from America study in China and Chinese students study in America safely? Like that should be something realistic and plausible. Now, I think that people who make that challenging, then I'm going to challenge them.

Where does this passion come from? I like this because it does, first of all, it's a positive value. I don't think that there's anything wrong with, in fact, I think it's something very admirable to want to build bridges. And you happen, like you said, you're American, you're in China, so naturally the two most powerful places in the world. Where does this passion come from? I mean, I think that there are different ways to answer that question.

um because i hadn't intended to move to china until i was like 22 or 23 and i didn't move until i was 35 so and the reasons i moved are myriad so like i might what this is what happened really after i had moved to china after i'd been living here i was 37 or 38 i'm 45 now um i started just like

We're seeing this problem that, hey, we need to get along because that was around the same time that it started to become a problem in the world. I was like, why is this this confrontation developing? What year was that for some context? 2017, 2018, I guess. I mean, it was it was originally from Obama where he said we're going to pivot to the Pacific. That was actually where this whole thing seemed to start and then just sort of escalated from then on.

But I mean, it didn't seem like a big deal at that time. It was like, sure, okay, they're going to put some more battleships over here, whatever, you know? Okay. But then it started to become escalatory. And so I started having an opinion about it. My wife was starting noticing, hey, you have an opinion about this. Why don't you do like...

a vlog. And I was like, no, no, no, no. I wasn't even on Twitter. I wasn't on Instagram. I wasn't on Facebook. I didn't even have a VPN. What was your job back then? I was a school teacher. Oh, yeah. Wow. I work, I think I can say, yeah. I mean, I can say where I worked, but I can't talk about it because I have an NDA. I worked for the Walt Disney Company and the Disney English. I was one of the leaders in that company before they closed that part of their empire. Oh,

But at that, I started having very strong opinions about this and I started articulating them in on an individual basis. And actually I had a group of drinking friends and that's when I would say these things. My wife said, I like what you're saying. I think this Chinese people in China and China's mainland would like to hear what you're saying. Why don't you do a vlog? I know in two years go by me saying, no, I'm very obstinate. No,

No, no, no, no. And finally I was like, okay, film me. So she made one video and it got 30,000 likes in one day on like Shigua, which is part of Douyin. It was bought by Douyin.

And so she was like, you need to do this all the time. So I grew on Billy Billy and on Chinese platforms. And then eventually I started doing American and international platforms as well. And it just grew from there. Like eventually I did get support from CGT and they were like, hey, how would you like it if we could help you get a bigger audience? And I was like, okay. But I was already doing this before they began a collaboration with me. And were you still teaching?

I was teaching for about a year while I was collaborating. Yeah. And that's a smart pivot because now I think, I mean, I would guess that interest in learning English is going down. Right? So like that was a very, like actually the smart one in all this was not you, it was your wife. She is really business savvy. But you know, I get offers to teach kids all the time and they want to pay me big time. And I say no, because like I love children, but I think that part of my life is over. Yeah.

How many followers do you have now? Okay. I'm guessing, I was thinking about this yesterday or the day before. It's about 950,000. Jesus. It's spread out a lot across different platforms. It's under my name, ShangguanJie, my Chinese name, which is actually my legal name.

I have my card in my backpack. It's usually in my phone and I could just bust my green card out, but it's over there. But my name is legally ShangguanJiawan. And so at ShangguanJiawan, all one word is my TikTok, which is 700,000. Twitter's 10,000. Bilibili's 10,000.

Oh, so is it TikTok or Douyin? Douyin is 55,000. I'm not sure. Oh, so your big one's TikTok. TikTok is huge. We also, the Bridge podcast actually has a lot of different platforms we're on also, and it's tens of thousands. So yeah.

So TikTok, then where would that audience physically be? A lot of them are in Central Asia, but we have more of a North American following now. Interesting. Yeah, so we have a lot of Kazakh and Pakistani fans and Afghan fans and stuff. Wow. And what part of your content do you think appeals to them? You know, I want to know too.

Do some surveys. Yeah, that's a good idea, actually. I'm not really sure. A lot of them are, I think a lot of them are interested in China specifically. It's not necessarily me. It's like a lot of people in Central Asia are very interested. You know the Belt and Road Initiative, BRI. So I think a lot of them are connected and their economies are starting to grow because of the BRI. And so they're taking an interest in China because their economy is becoming linked to

to China's and a lot of them want to travel. So they see my videos of traveling around Beijing and stuff. And they're like, that's what I assume. That makes so much sense. And that kind of goes back to what Frank was saying, that there's a lot more curiosity in China these days for different reasons. Yeah. Because China's becoming powerful. Yeah. You know, you're always going to be curious about the powerful guy. Powerful guy making, making ripples in the economy, creating opportunities, innovating, doing different things,

Having cooperation with your government, it's interesting the parallels between what other countries have done as well. Absolutely. You know, going back to the way I wanted to answer your question originally about why I do this, when I first became interested in moving to China, I was a sophomore or something at school.

And my, one of my teachers put up a Forbes slide, a slide from Forbes magazine at that time. I don't know if they even had a website. It's still, I'm old. And it was, it was, it showed that Chinese economy would overtake the United States economy in purchasing power parity around 2015. And I was like, I should go there.

It's the next thing, right? Why not go to the next thing? If you're living in England in 1940 and you look at the United States, is this the next big thing? Maybe you move to New York, right? So I was looking at, okay, China is the next big thing. I'm American. If I'm an American in China, that kind of gives me everything, right? So boom. How would you say it's panned out for you? Yeah.

I'm doing fine. 950,000 followers later. I'm doing pretty good. Jason, where are you from in the States? Well, I'm kind of from all over California. But my parents have been rich and poor. And I've lived in small towns and big cities. Okay. What do you consider home or where would you go back to the US? I mean, the only reason I would go back to the US, well, I was going to say it's Taco Bell and my mom, but now there's Taco Bell in China. So...

So just to go to my mom's. But is there really? Is it the same though? Is there really? Is it the same though? There are no beans. It's beanless. What is up with that? No bean burrito? And also the sauce, the hot sauce. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh man. I was never a big Taco Bell guy. I know, blasphemy. But, but.

But the few times I've tried Taco Bell in Shanghai, it was very disappointing. It's even worse now. Oh, really? So I don't know. Is that a good representation of the American Taco Bell? No. No? God, I'm craving it now. It does have some of the flavors, and it reminds me enough. It fills that space. Well, the Taco Supreme, I think, was okay, right? I just get the quesadilla. Okay. Okay, so you're ordering stuff that I don't order. So you're an In-N-Out guy.

Yeah, in and out. Or you're a Shake Shack guy. Habit Burger? Not Shake Shack. What is a Habit Burger? Habit Burger is a burger brand from LA, right? Is it LA? There was Habit Burger in LA. I've only been to LA a couple times, actually. So this enigmatic journey. So, but California. But okay, so...

What would you consider home, though? Where does your family live? I grew up in the suburbs as like a typical 1980s American movie cliche. Playing baseball, collecting baseball cards in Modesto, California. But my mom has since moved to a town called Oakdale, California. So did your family have any, like, have they visited you in China yet? No.

So what's that dynamic like then? I'm constantly trying to convince, I have three brothers, so I'm trying to convince one of them who's the most likely to come here to come. And he keeps saying, oh yeah, absolutely, right away. And then like six months later, what's going on? What I was trying to get at is, because we've asked this to other guests before that come from America, because we've been alienated here for a bit. Eric's been back at home, Texas, like little short snippets of time.

But Justin and I have been predominantly based in China. And so we don't really get the on-the-ground gist of what's really going on there. In America. In America, yeah. Of course, we talk to friends and stuff like that here and there. But I'm just curious from your perspective, speaking with your family directly still living there, is there any type of fights you have in terms of like...

cultural, like, identity differences or anything like that going on? My family are not a very political family. Okay. Actually, they are... My mom is a Jehovah's Witness. Oh, wow. Yeah, and so Jehovah's Witnesses have a very specific religious tenet. One of them...

They're famous for lots of them, right? There's one of them, and it's not to be political, not to involve yourself in the worldly affairs. So they have no opinions about things like, you know, this country, that country. None of that matters to them at all, really. It doesn't. Who do they vote for then? They don't vote. It's against their religion to vote. That's interesting. Yeah, they don't engage in political. They only are like people...

people to people and like with their relationship with God and stuff. And so they don't, she has no opinion. So if I say, you know, Hey, you know, this is going on in China and she'll say, Oh, I saw that on TV. What's that like? And she'll ask me about to give her context because she really doesn't know. That's a certain kind of open-mindedness built into. That's like actually good. That's like a good principle. I feel. I mean, it's, it's more than you think. My, my younger brother, he's 41 and,

He doesn't, he can't tell the difference between a policy that is a Democrat policy and a Republican policy. He doesn't even know. So like, yeah. What's a, oh, maybe I'll start on the positive side. What do you think the upside, and are you like this? What's the upside? What's the downside? Yeah.

Okay. Well, I think they're really good people. I mean, I think my opinion of the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses is roughly the same. It's like they're really nice people and they generally do like right by other folks and stuff. But I don't know.

Is there an advantage to being a political animal? I don't actually know. Is it better and more useful for society? I think it's also useful to have people who are just trying to be good people too. I had took an ethics class and in the ethics class, the professor pointed out if everyone was a plumber, the world wouldn't be able to function.

So that's good that not everyone wants to be a plumber. So that's good that we see stratification in society. And one of the things he was trying to point out in teaching ethics is it's okay for some people to have like different kinds of ethics because some people wouldn't be able to participate in society, uh,

The society wouldn't work if everyone was trying to participate in society in an identical way. So it's okay to have diversity. So I think it's fine for this, some people to be like, we're opting out of participating in the system. And you can benefit in different ways. Cause like, it's hard for one person or one group to care about everything. Some people might care about the environment. Some people might care about this and maybe that creates this checks and balances. Also, there are too many people in my, my humble opinion who, who,

try to have an opinion on everything. And, you know, you guys know Dunning-Kruger?

Yes. I think way too many people are Dunning-Kruger types where they think they know everything about every single topic. And I think it's better to focus in on some things that you really care about instead of trying to be a jack of all trades with every single political potato out there. Or having opinion just for the sake of having the opinion. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's something really appealing about what you said earlier about just like opting out of the system.

Like, honestly, like I tell my, I look at myself in the mirror sometimes and be like, I just want to opt out of the system too, right? Because like, while we do talk about this stuff and it sometimes makes for good content, like,

it drives me insane sometimes. Like, like the anxiety we talk about a lot of times, the frustration, the sadness, the anger, you know, everything that's going on. And it's just like, and what is it all for? It's just like politics. It's like, and it doesn't even feel like anything like we can really change or even these attitudes. And so it's just like, why, why like,

Why stoop down to that level? Immerse yourself in that toxicity. I don't know. I find something really like attractive about like, you know what? I just want to focus on life and just me and the people around me and my interactions with people to treat people in the right way and do right by others and do right by myself. Like,

Why even be bothered by any of this political bullshit that's going on? We have that ethos for the show. And we started, I think, even more strongly in some of our shows. But then we discovered things like Asian hate crime. Or we discovered things like different parts of the world not getting along with each other. And then it started impacting us in some way indirectly. And then we kind of jumped in a little bit sometimes. Because when someone... When you're trying to mind your own business and focus on all the things you're talking about, but then the world itself is...

there's at least there's a perception it's kind of going to shit. Then you want to, then you, you know, then you have a stake in it and you're like, no, no, no, no, no. And then we get into it. And I found, I've, I've, I feel that in recent episodes, we've gotten more into it and I'm a little bit wary of that, but, um, you know, it's, it's how things sort of evolve. So I think we need to,

What you said, I think is really powerful. I love what you said. It's like have this compass and we don't have to, first of all, we don't have to weigh in on everything. And even if it does relate to us, is it something that we have a really strong point of view on where we can make a positive impact? So there has to be some kind of compass. And I think it's, it's nice to hear what's driving you this, this, okay. Yeah.

Do I give a shit about it? Does it impact me? And can I do something about it? There's a filter there. There's a filter. It's not just all this bullshit. You're filtering through. What can I make an impact on? What means a lot to me? What can I offer some value in? There's an intersection to it. And there's probably a few questions you would ask. So if there was an intersection, sort of like what Justin was...

Saying, what would those questions be that could filter this Venn diagram of like what you actually put your time into? You know, I just want to comment that. Firstly, when you started to talk, you asked a question. You're like, hey, maybe this is a good way. And you put it in and then you also framed everything you just said as a question. Maybe this, maybe that. What about this?

And then you're also bringing guests on, not just me, but all of your other guests. I mean, you're asking them questions. So I think that being exploratory is okay, right? You know, because it doesn't seem like you guys are coming out really, hey, what we need to do is get out on the streets and do this right now. Tucker Carlson of China. It seems more like you guys are exploring what ideas are out there, you know, and what you can think about the world and what our listeners can take away, your listeners can take away. Yeah.

and new ideas that new guests can bring on. In terms of a Venn diagram, I don't think, you know, actually I like to take out opinions on some things that don't matter at all. Like just for fun. And I think you guys probably do this too. So like, you know, I live in Beijing and I see how beautiful Shanghai is. So I try to weigh in on which city is the coolest city. Not because it matters, but everyone knows it's Wuhan. Yeah.

I think it's... True, very true. I think it's zhenzhou. You know, the pictures of Chongqing, I've never been there. It looks amazing. Chongqing is awesome. We mentioned that last time, didn't we? Yeah. We were talking about that last time on your show. I can't wait to see it at night, you know, with all the lights on. Chongqing is awesome. It looks beautiful. And the culture there. It's amazing. It's a little spicy food. You got mahjong. I don't know. What else? Pandas? Tea? No, the coolest thing about Chongqing, I don't have the exact places to visit, but...

I remember the last time I was there, I was on a shoot and we're going to a location in an apartment complex. And the apartment was, I forgot what the floor was on, but anyway, we'll go to the lobby and it was like, you know, like the fourth floor we're supposed to go to. But instead of going up, we're the lobby, huh? Instead of going up, we went down.

Because it's a mountain. Oh, right, yeah. Yeah, and we didn't realize that the way the streets are, because it's kind of mountainous and stuff like that. So the fourth floor actually, you have to go down from my entrance, which looked like a normal street, like a main entrance. So it's just really weird. And it was like getting the grasp of elevation differences. Kind of like Hong Kong-y. Is that kind of like San Francisco, too? In a way. San Francisco, Hong Kong-y. And like, yeah, it's definitely really interesting visually. Yeah.

Yeah, I can't wait to see more cities in China so I can weigh in on this irrelevant topic, right? Because it doesn't matter like one person's opinion of which city is the most beautiful, but everyone seems to have these opinions. And I think- It's a fun debate. It's a fun debate, right? You don't, I mean, I don't necessarily want to weigh in, I don't know, on like-

France versus Germany, what happened during the 100-year war in Europe, whatever. It doesn't matter. It's totally irrelevant. I mean, I might just for fun because it's historical. But, you know, something that's happening now, I don't necessarily feel like – I mean, in order to understand anything like what's going on in Sudan, for example, there's like some kind of revolution in Sudan. Yeah.

Like, I don't know what's happening. And I would have to read, what, like 10 books and like different periodicals and newspapers and read and hear from different experts. But some people just like watch one or two like hours of media and they're like, I feel this way about it. Not even one or two hours of media. They read some headlines. Right. Not even the article, just the headlines. And they're like, I know what's going on. No, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I have my opinions now.

And so like, as you were saying, what you would do is you would research, you would read books, you would talk to people, you would find, you know, information and absorb. Like most people wouldn't, unless they were really passionate about that particular subject. But you can't expect people to put in that effort. For sure. But then don't have an opinion. Don't have a strong opinion about it. You're not going to put in that effort. Yeah.

Yeah. I feel that about a lot of topics around the world. I don't know. I mean, even if I thought I knew, I would need to know a lot more before I really knew. So I don't have an opinion on that. And asking questions that you were saying, like the fun ones, these come from sort of firsthand knowledge. So if you say, what's your favorite city? It comes from firsthand knowledge. And it's also defined by the absence of what you don't talk about. So we're not talking about just fucked up shit we don't know anything about. Yeah.

It's stuff that, and now I recall some of our conversations about traveling around China. So I'm glad that you're getting to do more of that.

I'm pumped about it, really. Well, this actually reminds me of a conversation when we had Andy Borum on the show. I know he's a good friend of yours, right? He is. Well, I don't know a good friend. I love him. But we actually have never physically met. Oh, really? But we communicate a lot electronically. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Well, when we had him on the show, there was one part of the conversation and we were talking about like, well, I was talking about, and Andy was agreeing with me, was that like,

I am so slow to have any judgment about any places anymore, especially if I've never been there. And that wasn't, I wasn't like that. You know, the old me, I had all these preconceptions of all these different places around the world that I've never been. But what the recent like years and all my time in China, like one of the things has taught me

is that you really can't trust a lot of media portrayals about places that you've never been to. And you need firsthand knowledge if you really want a strong opinion about a place, right? Or if you really want to feel a certain way. So I've noticed that I've changed a lot in that way that any place I've never been now, no matter what's being said in the headlines,

I am so slow to judge. I am very slow to judge. And I feel like, I don't know, maybe it's, we all kind of need to kind of be a little more reserved in that way, but it's hard to fight like a lot of just like innate preconceptions, you know, they're just in your head. Yes, I totally agree. And it goes back to sort of your frame of mind. And it's nice that maybe our show has helped us become more curious. It's about asking the right questions. If we go to any topic, like,

Like whether it's, if it's Sudan, if we frame things in the sense that like, well, what do we really know about that? What sources have we seen? What's our perspective? What have we heard? What have we read? When have we been? Do we know anyone's been there? Who would know about the subject? And when you kind of shift your perspective to really good questions,

then that library of questions will lead you to a totally different outcome than if you kind of go on a different path. And I think that's kind of interesting. That actually is something that inspires me, but I don't always have these questions in my head because maybe I jump to conclusions like,

Because there's stuff stimulating me. I see something and then I jump to conclusions and I don't go through these mental steps of slowing down asking questions. Also, you mentioned earlier, you're asked, because you apparently have gone back to the United States a lot more. Yeah. And you guys haven't, like me. I've only just a few days just to see my mom, right? Well, I mean, I would say I'm not an expert on what's going on in American society today.

And I am an American, right? We are Americans. And we don't, we, the three of us, at least, we don't really know, like, do people pay with their credit cards or cash? We use WeChat all the time or like Alipay in China. So I assume like, well, back 10 years plus ago, when I was in the United States, we used cash. So those Americans are living in the past. That's not a useful framework. So I want to bring this to another point. A lot of

China experts who haven't been to China in 20 years. Very frustrating sometimes to see them say things that are not relevant to today's China because China has obviously, and I haven't been to the United States to verify this, changed more because of the economic growth has just been so much faster. Yeah.

Yeah. What did Zach Dykwald call it? Like China speed? Yeah, China speed. So like they both change, but if you look at GDP, for instance, of course, like it's changed sort of dramatically. And so-

In our last show, we talked about this thing where it's like, okay, East understanding the West better, West understanding the East. And then sometimes it's self-referential, like East understanding itself better. For us, it would be like us understanding the West better, even though we're from the West because we haven't actually been there. So this theme of like being on the ground and needing to actually be on the ground to understand things is really, really powerful because things change. And through the pandemic,

Like we were all impacted by that. We weren't able to go to the places we would normally go. And then all the journalists and whoever that normally would come here, weren't here. And then you have all this sort of misunderstanding and then we lose our curiosity. And then what happens? Well, we hate each other.

Well, through the whole journey of creating the bridge and your show and stuff like that, and going along with what you've been saying about this whole kind of almost like losing perspective sometimes, right? Do you ever feel through your show times where you're catching yourself like, oh, wait a minute, I need to kind of realign or anything like that while trying to build this bridge of East and West?

Absolutely. I question my own thinking all the time. And something I may have posted six months ago may have not dated as well as I would like it to. I think I went through a period of being intensely – so intensely frustrated with some of the behavior of some of the leadership in America that I was a little bit frustrated with the way that they were behaving internationally. But in the last few months, I've realigned my perspective to really trying to – and if I'm building bridges –

It's not about, you know, one place is better than the other or something like that. It's about whoever in both places are trying to build bridges in any way, economically, sociologically, culturally, that is good. And people who are trying to take away from that, that is not constructive. But it doesn't mean we need to, like –

browbeat that person. It means that we need to find ways to build bridges through that. So we found rocky waters. There must be a deeper pillar that we can put in place there that can, you know, I was reading this book, actually, it's on the Belt and Road. I have a bunch of books on that right now. It's something I'm fascinated with. And there was one chapter in an anthology of writers who were writing about the Belt and Road written by the former prime minister of Thailand. And

And he said the best way to build lasting peace is through economic cooperation and interdependency. And when I read that, it blew my mind. And so a lot of the way that I approach my media now is emphasizing to Americans when they say, oh, we need to do this or that. You realize there are two Disney lands in China.

Right? Like people love Mickey Mouse here. So anything that I can find where, you know, oh, you know, Apple, Apple's CEO, Tim Cook, he was just here. And oftentimes these little tiny things where someone else has already been building a bridge,

where I can just point it out seems to diffuse tension that would have been elevated had I attempted to attack their position. So instead providing- It's common ground. Yeah, positive examples. Yeah. Yeah, that's, but you have to like really, I feel like you have to discipline yourself sometimes. It takes effort. Fight the urge to fight fire with fire sometimes. Yeah, yeah. It takes effort. What have you, have you seen, now that you mentioned like business building bridges, like

I was reading, and I don't know much about this, but maybe you know more, like European countries, like LVMH just reached $500 billion market cap. It's, I think, the most valuable French company ever. So it wants to build some fucking bridges. Yeah. And it wants the money to, you know, it wants- The head of LVMH came with Macron on his visit here. What's some of your, I guess- They're moving their headquarters here, I think, too. Really? Well, I mean, this is something I am interested in. And so I've been noticing some things that are developing that,

So even when some European politicians claim that they want to change their relationship with China in a less progressive way, businesses are building bridges anyway. So before Macron came to China, China and France were already building economic bridges.

Australia, which has a fairly hostile outlook towards China sometimes, they are desperate for a grain deal that is being made right now. And if this grain deal goes through, all of the winemakers in Australia will be desperate for the same deal so they can continue to export to their primary trade partner, China.

So even though like Australia is like buying all of these nuclear submarines, at the same time, what are they protecting? Their trade routes? With whom? Their primary trade partner? It doesn't even make sense. It doesn't. It's totally ludicrous. But like that's the thing when it comes to, I think, trade. Because I question, you know, I think money moves the world around, right? And trade is obviously a big example of that.

But then I also question like how much, how good or accurate or reliable is using trade as a barometer for, for, for to, to measure like the potential future conflict. Right. Because like, you know, 2022 China and the U S recorded the highest level of trades ever in 2022. Yes. Meanwhile, it's also the highest level of political tension ever between the two countries.

So what does that really mean? You know, it's like, it's like all this kind of like talk politically, but yet business wise, we're doing the most business we've ever done before with these two countries. I don't know the future. So, and that's one thing I also point out a lot because there are some experts on online who like to debate and they're always saying this is going to happen. I don't ever say what's going to happen. I don't know. I just try to emphasize positivity and positive things because, you know, I think it's like, I,

I think society, in my opinion, and I think this is the most bold and out there on the ledge thing I'm going to say today. I think that society works like our own mind. If you focus on positive things and you think about those things more often, you tend to be a more positive person. Everyone knows this about themselves, as long as they're getting enough sleep and vitamins and all that garbage too, right? So if you look at different countries and their relationships with

with each other, if we try to emphasize with all of the participants of society who have the same kind of mind as our own, that, you know, all the positive things, maybe we can marginalize the people who are trying to create discord, sow discord and tension, and then create a society that does get along. And I think one thing that's happened, you mentioned the pandemic, is a lot of people

in China came home and a lot of people in America came home. What we need to do, and this was pointed out by Cyrus Jansen, you guys had him on too. He pointed this out on my show and I really absorbed this. We just need more people to people.

exchanges on every single level, every single place, you know, more students in both countries, more employees in both countries, more CEOs, you know, doing business and each other, every kind of conceivable way that we can get people to people exchanges. Because you were pointing this out before the show started, you know, like most people,

Bring it back to being human, you know, like if so, if everyone knows someone from the other country or like knows, oh, my brother is they lived in Shanghai for a while or whatever, then maybe that would be enough to seal friendship more permanently. That has a huge impact. It's like the same. It's the same concept of like, what's the best kind of advertisement? Yeah.

referrals by people you know. Yeah, that's right. Right? Yeah. It's the same logic. I think psychology that's happening there. It's like people you know interacting, telling you something goes way more than a headline telling you something, right? Like by some network. So I think it's the same kind of psychology that's happening with that. We're trying to, and we're like the stuff it's,

people are trying to do things remotely. Like they're trying to report on something. So it's a person that doesn't even live in that country trying to influence people that don't live in that country. And all these headlines are sort of happening. That's basically what's happening in a nutshell. But then it reminds me of the role of culture and then just like the role of travel and food. So like, you know, put aside again, like go back to the more, the lighter things and put aside like all this stuff. It's just like,

back in a world where there was less tensions, or at least, I don't know if we're kind of looking at the good old days, but like when people could travel and the pandemic really made it difficult, you would just travel somewhere and then you'd go there. It could be China, it could be Korea, whatever. And inevitably you had a great experience because you'd eat the food there, you meet the people and like, it's generally pretty fucking good. It's not like you're dealing with the government. You're meeting people, getting to know them and you go back and you're like, oh, like I went to this place and then,

And you dispel all those myths. I actually went there. I was there. And you create that sort of that social proof or whatever. And it's interesting that we've seen this thing, this tension now. Maybe you could describe it as like a zero-sum game, this notion of a zero-sum. You can't have like these two massive superpowers. But for the average person, it's not a zero-sum game. It's like a lose-lose situation.

It's a lose-lose, no-win situation. It's not a zero-sum situation. And I think just from a game theory perspective, these governments have to get their shit together. Because we saw this with nuclear weapons, mutually assured destruction. It's not a zero-sum game. It's like you have to cooperate so you don't fucking launch your missile so that everyone dies. And I think sometimes this stuff, this economic stuff is more insidious than

Because you can't see it. The average person can't see it. I can't picture it as a nuclear missile traveling back and forth and trying to avoid that catastrophe. These things happen slowly and then all of a sudden, suddenly, and then like now 10 years later, 12 years later, why do we hate each other? That talk we went to, it was like this public opinion on both sides wasn't that negative. 10 years ago, like again, it wasn't like this. Crazy. Yeah.

You know, I want to point one thing out because I like to tell this to my fans so that they're paying attention, especially with my American fans. Hey, college in the United States costs so... You know, college in China doesn't. Come on over. Yeah, well, that's the sad thing, right? Like, I don't know the specific facts and figures to back this up, but my sense is that the kind of cross-pollination that we're talking about, about people traveling, you know, to either countries,

I just feel like that's trending now in a really bad direction, right? There's less and less, is there? - Well, I think there was less and less. I don't know what is happening in the last six months because China just reopened all of its borders and plane flights are just starting to decrease. It may take some time, but I mean, I think there are more German and French people in Western Europe because their economies are in crisis, they're real crisis.

And so they are sending people over here to do business, to set up shop, to work in factories, to open businesses, to go to school. And I know a lot of Americans are moving to Europe to go to school now. It's a new trend to go to these international schools where it's freaky.

It's free. It's actually just free. So I'm hoping that some of this trends in the United States too, and that we see in the next year or two, a return to some kind of normality. One problematic part of that is anti-Asian hate crimes in the United States have made the United States a less appealing destination for students who may have wanted to study there, but mom and dad might just be like, no,

No, we're sending you to Europe now. We're staying here. I feel like we need the opposite version of you roaming around in America like a Chinese dude. Be like, yo, I'm in Philly right now. Philly cheesesteak is awesome. We should find that guy. That exists, right? Right? Yeah. And be like, look, everything's cool here. Well, we had Matt Galladon from Jio Nation. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's a travel vlogger, right? But he's like, I don't know where he is. I think he's in Europe now. I think he's in Europe, yeah. I saw he was in Italy last time I checked.

But like, you know, like I think he, that's kind of the spirit of what he was trying to do and his reason for going back. Well, what's funny is, so like I suddenly thought of, so right now this, all the Asian hate crimes, they're like an anti-advertisement. So then what popped in my head was like, you remember like, I don't know, Malaysia, like there was this, the travel thing.

Amazing Malaysia. And there was a song by every country. Purely Asia or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And every country has it. Like India started having it. Singapore started having it. And then...

Think about us. We have the FBI video. Well, if you come, follow this video and you can protect yourself. Run, hide, or fight. Yeah, fight for your life. It's like we're killing ourselves in terms of marketing. Well, I think, you know, my feeling is that there are, we're going back to business again, there are vested interests in universities having international students and Chinese and Indian students

are the primary international students in U.S. universities. So if these universities want to continue to charge three to six times more for the same education as an American local resident, like if I'm a resident in California, it's still very expensive. But it's much more expensive for international students. Those vested interests need people. So you were talking about mutually assured destruction. What was that movie called?

with Matthew Broderick, War Games. It educated the population about that theory. So they were like, oh, this is bad. We shouldn't launch it. I mean, anyone that's going to kill us too. So maybe some university professor needs to be like, to make a movie about like, you know, how great universities are in these or something for international students. And then we could like, you know, oftentimes Hollywood leads the way. It's like a dead poet society with full of Asians. Yeah.

Well, except for the suicide part. So that's like the next chapter of crazy rich Asians. Crazy rich university students. Yeah, exactly. We need to get someone in Hollywood to make a film about how great going to university as an international student is. And then like, hey, look, it's great. Is it time for you to pivot? Maybe go into acting, Jason? When you travel to these different cities,

What does the work look like? And I guess what angles are you trying to explore? Well, oftentimes, if it's me, I just love to go do stuff. So my wife and I, we are those boring people who like museums.

We're actually those people. So I don't know, maybe you guys, do you guys like museums? Yeah, I do. My wife hates them, but I love them. Well, my wife and I share that. So we go to like museums and we went to a milk factory. So in Ely, sorry, in Hohot, there's a milk production facility called the Ely Milk Production Base. And I was like, Summer, do you want to go to the milk? She's like, yeah, of course I do.

So we went to this place where they make all the dairy products. You know, Ely is a brand. Yeah, one of the biggest. Yeah. They make cheese and yogurt and baby formula and stuff. And so they spent, sorry, the Ely company spent $100 million taking one of their milk production facilities and building around it

like an entertainment venue. Like an amusement park kind of thing? Almost like an amusement park, but there are no roller coasters. But that you can look on as everything's happening and they've replaced, you know, they've had the best automation and they have AI automated like vehicles that drive around and just do their own thing. It's like watching Star Wars, but milk is being made. And so like there are all these families, like thousands, I think it was 20,000 families. It was something like that. Go to this place and

You know, I was actually showing up and thinking, oh, this is gonna not be fun.

This is going to be terrible. It's just a milk. And I had a very bad attitude. 10 minutes into it, it was like, I can't believe we're in this place. Best time of your life. It wasn't the best time of my life, but it was amazing. And Willy Wonka of milk. I was thinking about 10 years ago or so, there was a milk fiasco in China, something to do with baby formula. And I was thinking the Ely company- Fake baby powder and babies were, they were drinking milk and then they were-

Yeah, they were getting... Well, kids died. Yeah, they died because there was nothing. It was fake powder. But didn't the executives, like the CEO of that company or whatever, got sentenced to death, right? I don't know. I'm not sure what... It was like a huge scandal. Absolutely. You know, China deals with criminality on a corporate level in a different way than the United States. But this facility, they're making baby formula there, and they also show that you can walk by the scientists as they're like testing the milk and stuff. And this is like...

All day from, you know, when, from the morning to the evening. And so if you want to, you can go to Ho-Hot and Kishida. So that's, that's kind of interesting. What do my wife and I do? We go to, that's what we did. So we go to Chengdu. She's a Buddhist, my wife. So we'll probably go to like a Buddhist temple and like a Chengdu museum and probably go see pandas. My preceptor,

My producer was very insistent. I go see pandas. I love pandas. I went to the Beijing Zoo. All the pandas were asleep. Very disappointing. Yeah, no, me too. My experience there, they're kind of boring. They're cute. Super cute. I love pandas. Don't get me wrong. But when you go see them, especially if you go in like the dead of summer, it's like sweltering. Yeah. They're all just, they're all, they're also feeling the heat. So they're just kind of like chilling, like laying there.

They're not doing much. It's not like, oh, Jason, shut up. I need to do something entertaining. Yeah, they don't give a shit. How do you... So you go to a city, let's say you go with your wife. You go to a couple of museums. You drink the milk. Hopefully you're not lactose intolerant.

Do you capture some of this stuff? Like put it on your channel? Like how do you choose restaurants? Like what's your... We choose restaurants based on if they're going to be cool and entertaining. Five stars. Yes, exactly. I only go to the five star ones. Yes, that's right. You believe in Dianping stars? Totally. Oh yeah, I do too. So Dajun Dianping chose the restaurant we tried to go to on our first night in Ho-Hot, but they were so busy we couldn't get in. Ho-Hot sounds hopping.

It's dry, so dry. Bring chapstick. It is so dry. And it was sandy. You know, like sometimes you get the sandstorms in Beijing. It's from there. So are you a movie guy? Like, are you really into it? Oh, God, I love movies. But don't you feel like being in China, you kind of lose out on a lot of cinema experience? I've got websites. I'm not going to give the URL away. Otherwise, your fans are going to ruin it for me. Offline, offline, offline, offline.

I can see anything. I heard about... Do you watch any of the Chinese films? Because they're getting better and better, apparently. Apparently. Yeah, my wife and I... No, I want to start watching. We do a date night where we go to movies. Like, okay, so there was one recently I just read about, but it was like on Western media and I really want to watch it. But basically they said it's like the Chinese version of Top Gun. So it's like some Chinese fighter pilot. And then he has to go in and like...

It's like the exact same premise. And they're being attacked by, you know, some unnamed country that has red, white, and blue or something like that. I have a friend. His name is Link Yim. He's making a movie. He's a Hong Kong American, now Beijing-er.

So he's kind of lived all over. I think it's 12 years, 12 years, 12 years, but he's been in Beijing 14 years now. He's making a movie, a new science fiction movie here in China and Beijing, and I guess all over, called The Boy Who Counted Cars or something like that. And it's a science fiction movie. I don't want to ruin it because I don't like watching previews because I want to see...

All the surprise. I want to be surprised when I see a movie. But it's going to be released here in China's mainland. Great. And it is not like... He's told me how sometimes Chinese movies are not made in the same way that they're made in Hollywood. In Hollywood, they'll put a movie on the back burner for 10 years. And they'll start development, stop development, start development, change actors, change this, change that. You know, Back to the Future, they originally filmed half the movie with a different actor. Right.

Really? You can watch. It wasn't Michael J. Fox? It wasn't Michael J. Fox. Who was it? I don't know his name, but I recognize him when I see him. He's one of those 80s actors. Kirk Cameron. And they reshot half of the movie to get rid of this guy and replace him. Really? Really. So what was it? Was it a fallout that happened or they just changed their minds? I think they just changed their mind. They were like, no, this guy will do a better job. So they started over. That's something you wouldn't do in China because they're like on a budget. They want to get to someplace right away. So Link...

fought for years to be able to make his movie the way he wanted to make his movie. The guy in Pulp Fiction, the drug dealer guy. I've been looking it up, but the drug dealer guy with the long head. Weren't they all drug dealers? So he's been working on this movie for years and he's finally got this opportunity. I think it's going to be

it might be just like a B movie to like Chinese folks because they'll be like what's who made this I don't know but I'm excited about it because it's gonna be it's all made in China it's completely Mandarin all Chinese actors and I think it's gonna change the way that the movie is gonna be released I don't know the Chinese name but I'll send it to you later yeah I like the title and if you say sci-fi that's just the English translation name right is it gonna be released in theaters here yeah yeah that's a good deal

How do we get to movies? We never get to movies. I love movies. Maybe it was my fault. Somehow we just jumped over to movies. You'd think you'd bring it up more often, but you never do. I haven't watched a movie since giving birth to my kids, so I don't know. You gave birth? I personally gave birth. This is the new American culture. Not just one. Two. He identified. I'm still American. Two. I'm still very American. Two. He gave birth to two at the same time. At the same time. I gave birth. Yes. Wow. To two.

I don't, I feel frustrated that there is a culture that I have to be in the room for that someday. Before we move on, let's just talk for one second. American and American. American and American. So how do you feel about what's been going on over there, like culturally, in terms of like, I mean, I don't want to generalize the umbrella of like wokeism and stuff like that, but like culturally speaking, what's been going on with the extreme racism

Well, you know, I'm... Talking about it like it's Sudan. Yep. Well, no, I mean, I actually have kind of strong opinions about it. I'm from all over, but I spent like 12, 13 years in San Francisco. So I'm very strong about the...

that people should be able to do whatever the heck they want. I don't necessarily, I feel very strongly that that goes both ways. So whatever they want me to do, I don't care. I'm going to do what I want. So if someone wants to identify as a chair or like as a woman or whatever, and they're biologically born in a different way, that's up to them. It has nothing to do with me at all. What they want to do is completely and totally okay. I do not,

My own opinion is that people who are underage should probably, just like smoking cigarettes and alcohol, wait until later to do any permanent work. But that's just my own opinion. I could be wrong about that, and there could be reasons that I don't know, right? But I'm from San Francisco. It's very much like that's their family. They do their things their way. Yeah. Well, I mean, again, I don't know. I'm speaking out of school. But-

I get the sense that most people, Americans would feel, would agree with what you said. Like, you know, as long as you do, you do you, you know? And, but it's like the whole thing is as long as it's not bothering anybody else. Right. And I think that's more the debate is when these personal decisions are

Kind of bleed into society where, let's say, it's being taught at schools or let's say transgender, transgenders in sports. Right. Topics like that. I think that's when the debate really starts heating up and you see people like really kind of like, you know, very passionate about whatever stance they have. I think that's really when the conversation really starts heating up.

heating up. It's not so much about, oh, I don't want someone else to do or identify with whatever they identify as long as they keep it to themselves. You know, I think most people are okay with that. Well, you got, in terms of that debate, you have two bell curves of people who are very much against whatever, you know, is sports or what's being taught in schools. And then you have the bell curve of people who are very much for sports

And I'm not in either bell curve. So again, I'm like okay with other people doing what they want to do. And if these two bell curves of very opinionated people want to have a battle, clearly they know a lot more and it's impacting their lives a lot more than it is impacting my life. So I'm going to let them have the debate. Yeah. Anytime I feel like I bring this up a little bit, Eric right away gives me the look. Do you ever notice that, Eric? He gives us a lot of looks. He's like...

Oh, welcome to my world. Welcome to my world. Like the reason that I maybe had a response to it was just because, well, what are we talking about? You're like taking a label and then you're saying, what's your opinion on Sudan, on Wokas and whatever. And I think that like, we just spent like a long time talking about nuances and talking about certain things. So like, what is that specific issue that we want to talk about? Well, that issue could be unraveled through conversation, right? But what, but like what though? Like, I mean, I'm just saying like, it would be like bringing up like, well, let's talk about Sudan. What do you think?

So like, but if you, if you wanted to talk about it, then bring up a point of view on it. Like, okay, what specific, but it felt like provocative, you know, like you were trying to provoke something when I was like, okay. Did you feel it was provocative? Honestly. I mean, I don't know about provocative. It's certainly going to start a conversation, right? I mean, that's the whole, that's the whole point, right? I think I, in my opinion, that it's okay to get provocative sometimes to elicit responses, to get people to engage. I mean, that's what professors do, right?

They want you to debate. I have a friend named Mark Levine, Dr. Mark Levine. He's a friend of China. He got an award for being his contributions as an American to Chinese culture and society. And he is a professor of rhetoric where he teaches debate. And he gave people in his Minzu University in Beijing, which is the people's university. So it's like all the ethnic groups are represented in proportion. The debate is...

of, uh, something to do with nuclear weapons. Like should countries have nuclear weapons or should all nuclear weapons in the world be banned? And he forced his students to debate and they do this at universities all over the world. I think, you know, uh, that's a really interesting way to evoke response. And I don't, people necessarily in those represent their own opinions though. So I guess it's a little bit different, but I think it's important to

discuss things i also think it's important to know how to caveat things and that's challenging actually for a lot of people maybe no eric's the king of caveats no we all are and i don't even know what caveat means i thought carrots caveats caviar um we're hoping to get someone from uh code pink on to soon we didn't necessarily mean okay

They are an American organization who is for peace, you know, and they go and disrupt Senate hearings and things. Oh. They're very, very active. They're all women. And they wear pink shirts matching pink outfits and they go into like Senate hearings and they try to like, you know, hold up signs when they're not supposed to and get arrested and create a scene and stuff like that. That TikTok guy probably was wishing Code Pink showed up to his hearing. Yeah.

He's like, please come. Coaching saved my ass. He did a great job. Yeah, he did. He did a wonderful job. That was a weird, weird hearing. That was just... It reminded me of that... Circus. What's the aviator? What's the gentleman that's based on the movie, the aviators? Hughes. When they brought him in and they grilled him unfairly, I was like...

Yeah, this is what the Senate does. Like, it just brings people in and grills them for their own purposes. Like, even, like, an Iron Man with, like, Robert Downey Jr. Right, yeah. Like, he's always fighting it. It's pretty bad because if you do turn the tables a little bit and say, well, let's say there was, like, someone...

in another country, maybe the one we're living in, and they did the same thing to one of the folks back in the US. Wow. What would happen there? What would the media blow up like? That would have been hardcore. And this dude's not even, like he's not, he's Singaporean. No one,

I listened. No one ever mentioned that he wasn't actually Chinese. They're like... They didn't know. Well, one person assumed and then he corrected and said, I'm actually Singaporean. They all assumed he was Chinese. And I think it was intentional. It was intentional that he's a CEO of TikTok. So it was like to frame it as he's an agent of this country. Yeah. Right.

I couldn't believe, I don't remember which senator it was, that one of the senators thought that the purpose of using Wi-Fi or Bluetooth was to check people's pupil dilation. I was like, I don't even know how many different scientific principles that breaks. It doesn't make any sense at all. Where did he even start off reading that? It's not even physically, you can't see anything.

electromagnetic radiation, the way that it functions between objects, how would it look at you? And how did people keep a straight face in that room? Well, it became very clear because I listened to the hearing. It became very clear very quickly that they were not interested in actually hearing him talk. Or...

or interested in learning about like what he would. Yeah. That wasn't the point. They were there to just grill him. Yeah. Just to make it look like they were being. And shout what they wanted to say to the public so that the public can hear. It had nothing to do with the answers he wanted to provide. But for you, are you nervous at all? Because like you have so many followers on TikTok, like you have followers on doing, but we're talking about TikTok now, which is I think the majority of your followers. I mean, are you like, are you, are you concerned about like a potential ban or anything like that?

Okay, this is what my opinion is. Like, remember when they tried to ban WeChat a couple years ago? You know, the Chinese community isn't gigantic. It's, you know, relatively small portion of the United States, but there was enough, like, pushback that they couldn't ban it, and WeChat is still functioning in the United States. TikTok is...

way bigger than we checked. 150 million people's numbers. Yeah, that's like almost half of all Americans use it. So I don't think there's a realistic situation where Congress bans TikTok without the most insane backlash we've seen in our lifetime for like passing a law. It wouldn't go down. Yeah.

That's my opinion. But I think it's not worth concerning myself too much about. And if it did happen, it would only be one country. I still have all my Kazakh friends. Anyway, Jason, first of all, I want to thank you for having us on your show before. That was a wonderful experience. My pleasure. I'd like to have you back. Yeah. We listened to, well, I listened to the episode. Great.

Great episode. I'm not tweeting. I'm not tweeting. My guests were outstanding. Fantastic episode. Listen to it. No, but like the job you guys did in terms of like just putting it together was amazing. Really appreciate that. And thank you for taking the time to come on our show today. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. And if you guys come to Beijing, maybe we could physically do this there. I love

awesome. We might have to just make that happen. Yeah, because you guys got to peek behind the curtains of how the sausage is made here today. We need to peek behind your curtains. Sounds oddly sexual, but... I was thinking that. Yeah.

It sounds kind of ho-hot. There's a lot of meat. I learned what that meant, by the way. It's in Mongolian for blue city, although I didn't see a lot of blue. Okay. Blue city. Yeah. All right. So again, where can people find you? Oh, the Bridge Podcast, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and Audible are the main platforms. Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. And if you also want to follow me on Twitter, you can find me at at shangwanjia1, all one word. There you go. There you go. Thank you again, Jason. Thank you. And Liu Ming.

Welcome producer in the background. He's in the background. She's been hovering around us this whole time as we've been doing this. All right. So that was Jason. I'm Justin. I'm Howie. I'm Eric. You were trying to think of something clever. He was trying to lower his voice. A couple. He's like. I was going to say something and then I realized halfway that it wasn't appropriate. So I stopped myself. All right. Be well. Be good. Peace. The Rises. I will see my bride.

♪ In which she runs ♪ ♪ I, I, I, I, I, I ♪