#10. Hurry Slowly
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Hey everybody, hope everyone's having a great day. Today's episode is an oldie. It's an old recording that we dug up and this was an episode that we recorded way before we even released our first episode. So it's a conversation between Eric and I, how he wasn't there that day. And this was when Eric had just returned from a long trip to Italy in Spain and

And we were just having some drinks, catching up with each other. And we thought, what the hell? Let's record this. Maybe we can use it one day. So here we are again. It's a very chilled, laid back conversation between the two of us. And we talk about vacation and travel. We talk about vacation philosophies. And what we mean by that is, I don't know if you've ever noticed, but

But oftentimes more impactful than the destination itself are the people you travel with. And that's because everyone has different styles or agendas or expectations when they go traveling. Some people like to keep it really chill, really laid back, play it by ear, while other people want every second of the day accounted for. They want to cram as much into that schedule as possible. They want to see all the sites. They want to go to all the places.

let no minute go to waste kind of mentality. And these different styles often lead to a lot of conflict and friction when people go traveling, especially couples. You see a lot of couples and they're having arguments and fights during the vacation. And that's because they're going in with different expectations, different agendas. And when they don't line up, it's a source of friction. And this is true between whether it's couples or friends or groups of people.

It happens all the time. I've seen it over and over again. So we talk about these varying vacation philosophies. Also, we talk about getting the most out of your vacations in general. How do you prepare for a vacation? And once you're there, how do you maximize your experience without making that effort to maximize it so stressful, right? So there's a fine balance between underpreparing and overpreparing. And travel sites, how much can you rely on travel sites to do that preparation?

How much can you really trust these travel sites, especially when it comes to ratings and reviews? What standards, when a certain travel site is rating a particular restaurant, number one out of 3,000 restaurants, well, what standards are they using? Or is the system being gamed? Are they being paid to push some establishments higher up that ranking than others?

And finally, we talk about how travel has an effect on our personal development, right? So whether you are fortunate enough to travel a lot during your childhood or your youth, or you only started traveling and seeing the world later on in your adult life, either way, it has a huge impact on shaping our worldview, has a huge impact on how we contextualize a lot of things in our life. So I think it's a very relevant subject matter.

And we talk more about Eric's trip to Spain and Italy, his experiences there and what he's learned, the food that he got to eat. And so we talk about all that good stuff. I hope you guys enjoy. And here we go. We'll see how this goes down on an empty stomach.

If I get a little riled up. Yeah, we're going to be trashed. I drank last night. The honest drunk. Cheers. Thanks. All right, cheers. Cheers, man. That's a good one. It's definitely smooth. Very smooth. It's smoother than some of the ones that we've had, right? I like it. Good choice. So you got this... Where did you get this again? It was in Italy? No, this was in Barcelona. So I, you know, I spent...

Most of the trip, I basically flew into Barcelona, picked up Anne, we flew into Italy, and then we did our thing in Italy for about a week. You guys were in Italy for a week. Where did you guys go in Italy? We were in mainly just two places, Florence and then Lake Como. And then when we were in Florence, we did a day trip to Siena. So that's good. How was Lake Como? So Lake Como, we spent...

only two days there but I would say in some ways it was like the highlight of the trip because you know imagine a place that's got you know probably one of the most beautiful lakes in the world yeah and it's like the wealthiest it's one of the wealthiest places yeah wealthiest places in the world like a lot of people don't know about it right so it's cool that you have heard of it um

But a lot of people have never heard of it. Well, you know what? You want to know how I know, why I know? Because you're a baller. That's why. Do you have a couple of villas there? I, uh, do you ever see that, um, that TV show, uh, Killing Versace or something like that? Oh, I heard of it. So in that, in that show, they have, uh, the Versace family, they have a house on Lake Como. Uh-huh. So...

That's stupid. Oh, he was... That's how I know. I don't know because I'm talking to you. I know what you're talking about. So he was dating an American guy, like a psychopath. Was that... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think his name was Andrew something, like in Florida, like in the South. Miami. Miami, right. Okay. Yeah.

I remember when that came on. So it was, like, based on the real events of, like, his death. And you remember, like, that was back when there was, like, just tabloids. Like, the form of, like, the media we had back then was so primitive. Yeah. Like, it would be, like, 30-minute segments, like, hard copy. Yeah, it was hard copy. There was no social media. There was no smartphones. But, no, so we spent most of the trip in Italy. We just kind of, you know, I just passed through Barcelona, essentially. The...

we flew out of Milan back to Barcelona and it had just like a really weak, it was a, it was a very old airport. Didn't have anything. Um, but so I got this in the Barcelona and the international airport. So that's probably, you know, it's pretty legit. There was probably like 20 or 30 different types, like anything you can imagine. And then they have these sort of special airport additions, um,

where they're a little bit larger, right? How big is this one? This one's pretty big. It's a pretty big bottle. Yeah, it's a big boy. It's a one liter, right? Whereas like a lot of the bottles are like 750 milliliters. So it's a little bit of a special edition. And this one looked really good. They actually allowed us to try...

allowed me to try so you were just you were like they like give you samples of every whiskey there was a sample station I'm kind of just since I'm not very knowledgeable I'm kind of superficial and I just look at like which bottle looks sort of the coolest the best design and

You know what I'm saying? Because I figure if they put all the effort into the design... They'll put that much effort into the product. Exactly. And you go by the price. I think there's some heuristics, some kind of rules of thumbs that you can use. This one looked good. And then I kind of looked it up a little bit online. And then I did actually end up trying it just to make sure that it wasn't too peaty. Yeah. Because I couldn't remember. I'd had something from Oban before. So it...

Pretty legit. You know, like you're in Europe. You're in the airport. Whiskey. It's pretty legit. So it was just you and Anne. It was just kind of just a vacation? Yeah. So it was just, you know, it's opportunity every quarter we try to meet up. You know, it's just difficult to do long distance. Yeah. You know? So do you feel like more refreshed coming back now? Like, was this trip...

in any way to you. That's a great question. More than like, you know, just a normal vacation. I think every, anytime I can just get out of my normal surroundings, I think your normal surroundings kind of grind you down in some ways in terms of your mindset. It's like it erodes at your mindset because...

you know, and in some way you have like a routine, whether it's work, you're seeing the same people and you're getting into the same thought process. So your circuitry sort of runs in this predictable way, no matter what, no matter where you are. And that's why it's important to meet new people to get out there. And so it was impactful. I, you know, you have lots of new ideas and,

And you start reflecting on your life back home from a different lens, you know? And so, you know, I definitely had like lots of crazy ideas. Like I should do things differently. You kind of beat yourself up a little bit. Then you come back and then you get back into the routine. So I'm trying to just, you know,

kind of take some of the things that I thought about and see if I can make some small changes. Yeah. You know, not wholesale changes or anything like that. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I always fall, whenever I travel, I always fall into like that cliche of like soul searching, right? But it's true, right? Like once you get removed to an environment, you kind of like, you have a, you're trying to look at things from a different perspective. Yeah. Just to see if you can get into the dance. And emotionally you feel different.

So for me, that's the biggest change is like you're in a different place. And because you're detached, because normally you're in an environment and you have their daily pressures and things that you need to do in your routine. So you're kind of shackled by it. Then you step back and you say, like, I don't have to do anything. You know, like no one's going to call me or I'm not going to pick up the phone. I'm not going to check my email. None of those things. You're in a different environment. You're dealing with a totally different set of people. The whole social dynamic is different. And you just realize how different that feels. So it feels different.

It totally feels different. And then when I think about it, and because I'm so zoomed out, when I look back at the stuff that I deal with,

you know, back in Shanghai, the day to day, a lot of it just appears trivial to me. You know what I'm saying? It's because you're zoomed out. You're like, you're detached from it. You have distance. So the distance or I don't know, the tyranny of distance basically detaches you from it. And in that part of your life, you're like, why, why do I get so stressed out every day about that? And then in this new environment, I feel like all, you know, high and mighty. And I'm like, I'm going to go back and just be like, you know,

I'm going to be able to handle everything. And then you go back and then you get thrown right back into the fire. Yeah. Oh, that was a little bit idealistic. So I'm trying to calibrate a little bit. And so take some of these new ideas because you do have opportunity to reflect more, think about things more, but then be more realistic when I come back so that there's not such a like a gap. There's not such a gap between, you know, like the ideal versus the reality. That's right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

So it was hectic though. It was definitely hectic. I try to do too much, of course, because I'm obsessive. Like try to do like, like in terms of sightseeing. Yeah. Like, like I'm like every morning I'm like, damn it, get up, get up. I would hate to go on vacation with you. I'm the opposite. When I go on vacation, I don't want to have an agenda. I don't want to have a schedule. You know, I want to just do whatever I want to do when I want to do it, you know, on vacation. Right. I don't want to have to live by like anything. So that's why I like to, um,

I like to spend like more time in one place as opposed to move around to a lot of places. So if I only have like, let's say like three, four days or a week, I want to be at two places max. I don't want to be like, I know some people who just want to like bounce. They want to fit as much into that time as possible in terms of coverage, right? But I'm the opposite. You know, I try to stay longer in one place just so you can get to know the place better, more intimately, you know?

Rather than as like just a sightseer or a tourist. Yeah. So this time, and I've done different approaches in this time, you know, because like we have certain constraints on the trips because we're only able to see each other maybe once every three months if we're lucky. And...

to be able to travel internationally and get away from work, you know, the cadence is going to be like, there's going to be a less of a cadence. And then, then you have to invest the time, but you can't take two weeks every quarter, right? That's just not going to work out. So I think we did about nine days this time. So then when I was thinking about the nine days, I definitely had, I, I adopted a little bit of your philosophy. Let's just go to two places. I mean, some people might even think,

you know, two places is a lot. You should really go deep, um, on one place, you know, so that I was kind of thinking like, okay, Florence, maybe Rome, a couple of different places. But then I ended up deciding against that because Florence itself is such a rich, you know, um, historical place for culture and art and all that stuff. And so to go from like Florence and go to Rome, it'd be like totally overwhelming. Um,

You know, you're thinking like hundreds and hundreds of years of art. And it was overwhelming. Like even within Florence, the few days we were there, we were like...

completely exhausted from just like you go to the museum and literally thousands and tens of thousands of paintings it's it's you know like I think I got brain damage from the whole thing you know what I'm saying it was grueling it was absolutely grueling but like in retrospect but that's not the word you should use to describe a vacation yeah exactly so I'm telling my friends about I'm telling some of my colleagues and they're just like you're just insane you know so I think the first I'm trying to

this is really interesting, right? Like, um, this probably reflects my personality and, you know, like you'll probably laugh, but like who goes on vacation and then gets stressed out by the vacation. Yeah, exactly. That's so you, that's so you. So, you know, so we're working on that piece. Um, but that's going to take time, right? That's,

So, you know, like the planning process and then how like I've sort of started building out a better framework for how to do vacation. So I use notes. Right. I think I showed you. Yeah. And I use notes. My biggest challenge, I would say I have two challenges when I plan vacations.

So one is I'm just inherently lazy because when you plan vacations, it takes quite amount of focus because you've got to go through a lot of the nitty gritty, the details, because you've got to coordinate everything. Like, when are we going to fly? Is there availability? You're pushing up against constraints. So you've got to be on top of shit and you have to do it on a time frame. You can't wait till the last minute. Yeah. And you have to make sure everything's rock solid because you don't want to be

You know, once you get there, especially in a foreign land, you know, like scrambling about to try to solve problems. Exactly. And like the itinerary, like being able to go from one place to another. These are like physical, like, you know, constraints, like logistics that if you miss a flight, you miss the flight. And then, you know, then you have to get back. So there's that level of detail that I think I struggle a little bit with because I like to procrastinate. Now,

what compounds that is that I'm a hyper optimizer. So like I go to a place and my expectations, like I gotta go to all the Michelin restaurants, gotta go to all this, gotta do this, but I'm lazy. So I'm a lazy motherfucker that has high standards. - So is that a source of like eternal conflict within you?

Like a lazy, like also for all you lazy motherfuckers that have high standards, either get on top of shit or lower your standards, assholes. Yeah. Yeah. So anyways, I'm getting better because, you know, part of it is just,

doing a little bit, you know, like not trying to optimize everything, just getting a little bit better. So I started the notes thing because I used to, I've been traveling with my parents more the last few years. They're getting older and I want to spend more time with them. And, you know, at this point in their life, they're not going to be planning, you know? So like, I've got to step up, I've got to do the planning. So I've got to take responsibility for that. So that's forced me to have kind of a system.

While I'm dealing with all my internal angst. You know what I'm saying? So then I have that and then I try to plan out the skeleton of it. So like in terms of flights and hotels, I'm generally like better. But because I also have experienced some incredible TripAdvisor or Airbnb experiences the last few years, it's like you go places, right? And if you just kind of go by the guidebook or you go by whatever resources, you're a little bit lost. You don't get the context of

Because you haven't lived there. You don't know any of the history. But imagine if someone were to come to Shanghai and then had us as a guide. Even for three hours. We could, in those three hours, probably give them more content and insights than they could do a month on their own. Because we've lived here for so long. So...

I'm a big fan of those experiences on TripAdvisor. But do you trust TripAdvisor though? TripAdvisor to me is a little, they're really hit or miss with, I think, the kind of the accuracy. I think that if you look at a macro level, like you think, okay, TripAdvisor is like a Yellow Pages. So the ones that have lots of reviews and they're in the system and they actually have an address and a website and all that stuff, it's just a basic resource. So ignoring the rankings...

It's like if there is a restaurant that's not really in there, then it might be suspect just because it hasn't got... Because that's just such a basic platform. So number one is TripAdvisor just gives you information about places that you would have gone to anyways, right? It's good for a baseline, getting a baseline. It's a directory. Information, yeah. If you're on the street at a restaurant, you're going to look up that restaurant's going to be in there. But it's the rating system that I don't really trust, right? Like whether it's restaurants or hotels...

They have a rating system in terms of number one out of how many thousand restaurants in the city, right? Or number two or number three. And then a lot of those just seem like tourist traps to me. And I've listened to it before and I've gone to these restaurants. They weren't very good. They were just tourist traps, you know, price places, but very popular. Do you think there was... Do you think... Okay, so this is a great question. I'd love to get your perspective. Do you think that the...

the ranking system is only, is because of natural factors that cause that tourist trap place because of the location and because of the way they interact with the demographic. Because TripAdvisor is very heavily sort of like Western people. You know what I'm saying? If you go to Japan, like you probably don't want to use TripAdvisor as much.

But do you think it's just sort of a natural consequence of the ranking system isn't necessarily the best place. It's just like the place that's most popular. Or do you think there's actually malevolence in there, like malicious? I don't think there's malevolence, but I don't know.

No one's trying to game it? You don't think people get paid off? Like that kind of shit? Well, I think they might do it openly. Maybe if there's like certain fees you pay to help with the, with like your exposure, they might put it under different terms. But yeah, I think there's,

Definitely something at play in terms of how they rank things. Yeah, right because it's not like a voting system. Not like people are voting. So like how do you use... Or it could be a very simple algorithm just based on the ratings they get in customer reviews and comments, right? And they kind of average all that like, you know, if it's like out of five stars, whatever. They average it all out and they have some sort of algorithm that just orders them in terms of, you know, that.

the quality of review so how do you use like so um to what extent do you use tripadvisor now and then what experiences have you had in terms of like going to a top-ranked place and then it being you know like what are your experiences with tripadvisor so i use tripadvisor just as like to get like i said before like like just a very baseline information right so just the hard facts like where is this place geographically um what are some of the pictures right um

Description, what's nearby, amenities, and whatever it is, right? So just hard facts. And then I go through multiple other resources to try to get the clear understanding of the details. Do you read the TripAdvisor reviews? I do. I do. Okay. But that's the thing, right? So it all comes down to, I think, what you were saying before. You're so big on standards. Standards. And I think that's what it comes down to.

So there might not be any gaming of TripAdvisor, but when I say I don't trust TripAdvisor, I'm not just saying I don't trust the platform or the company TripAdvisor. I'm saying I don't trust the opinion of

of all these other people on TripAdvisor giving reviews that may not share the same standards as me. That's right. Right? Yeah. So, you know, a lot of them could be more budget conscious on their trip. So they tend to go to certain places and enjoy certain types of, you know,

Meals or places that maybe you know other people won't right so it's like it's all about your budget so about your how much exposure you had and your standards, so I don't trust their standards. That's what I'm basically trying to say and So when they say something is really good like this is the best restaurant well You know I don't I don't know you you don't know me so just because you all say it's the best doesn't mean I'm gonna agree so let me ask you a question and

Let's say that, because I use TripAdvisor for different things. And also, the usefulness will differ, right? If you're looking at landmarks and sites and sort of how to piece together where you want to go and what you want to see, it's actually really effective. Because something like the Uffizi Museum or David and Michelangelo, that's just going to rise to the top. Because in those things, it's not really about standards.

Well, those are like the keystone things. The key things, right? And so I think that's really helpful because then you can get a list of the top 100 things and you can kind of go through. And it's less about standards because those are all new things to people. It's just more about their impressions. Restaurants, it's like, I agree. It's about standards. Because when it comes to the sites, that's one thing. The sites are the sites.

Right? But, yeah, what we're talking about is like the restaurants or the hotels because then that really depends on your individual taste, your standards, right? Yeah. What you can afford, right? So that's where it becomes a little tricky. Well, okay, the...

To split hairs a little bit, so the sites is the sites I use. It's really effective. It's really important. Then the actual experiences and the guides and the tours, back to what we were talking about, if you could find a knowledgeable person, I've had incredible experiences. So I have to say in the last, I've been doing this for about three or four years, both Airbnb, mostly TripAdvisor, but Airbnb, you go on and you look at their,

their top things to do. And then they have a lot of commercial stuff, like people will take you around. Airbnb has experiences. These have been like five star, been incredible. Like we did a cooking, we went to a Tuscan villa with a family who lived there for many generations. They took us in like, just like we're their family and taught us how to cook. And then we had other people, other tourists with us. And then we got to make a lot of friends.

I've done architectural tours. - And you found that off of Airbnb? - Airbnb experiences, it's called experiences. I've been in Savannah, I've been in Charleston with my parents. There was an architectural tour in Savannah from a guy that went to, from Ohio, who went to school there, now basically knows all the culture. Another guy that's like,

you know, fifth generation, uh, South Carolina. No. So these have been really, really tip top. Right. So, but those are like paid advertisements on here. No, they're not paid. Well, there are paid advertisements, but then people rate them just like they rate restaurants and then you can get a sense. So it's not so much about standards because those, it's more about the experience with hotels, people who, uh,

First of all, like the people who rate the hotels, I'm, you know, I'm generally confident that they stayed there. It's not like they're pretending like, like they can only afford like Motel 6. So I think with hotels, it's like, it's much easier. You go with the brand, but every city has a different collection of brands that are in that category.

you know, in that geography. So you can kind of get a sense. So generally it's like, you know, you can get a sense, right? It's mostly like restaurants, I think, because restaurants, first of all, in terms of their sheer volume, that's the biggest population of places. So my question for you is,

What if you just didn't use any kind of review site and all you did was went to neighborhood restaurants wherever you went? And then you took this concept of like standards out of it and ratings and Michelin and all that bullshit. Because maybe that's just shit people plan in our head to fuck with us. And you just said, I'm just going to go out. I'm not even going to ask the hotel concierge.

and I'm just going to go around the block, and whatever I think is cool, I'm going to go and I'm going to eat there. Do you think that you would have had a better experience and paid less money than when we go through all the angst and shit that we go through? Well, you go through more angst than I do. Okay, that's me. So there's different levels there. No guides. No guides. Choose restaurants just based on... Yeah, like if you were just dropped in the middle of a foreign city and then you just... Would you have an equally good experience? I think maybe yes, but...

I think you definitely could, but I think the more you do it, you'll realize probably you'll end up having a better experience having done at least a little bit of research. It's like Shanghai, if someone who's never been here gets just dropped in the middle of the city, but let's say they get dropped off in like Gubei or something like that, or wherever, or here in Xizhahui.

And they were just, they just abducted that mentality. I mean, there's nothing really good to eat around my area. You know what I mean? So they were just out here, you know, they wouldn't, I don't think they would find anything very good. But,

just a few miles down the street all of a sudden you're in Jing'an and then there's a lot of other places there so he could have he would have totally missed that opportunity to go there but a simple a simple like five minute research would have told you you know or like Shinkendi or you know you would see these places that would give you a whole different experience than being you know somewhere that's not really city center right right which is a valid argument

Valid argument. Because just right down the street, there could be a great, great restaurant that you just missed. But you would have known had you just looked it up. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I like that. And this is a little bit neurotic. So don't judge me. Okay. So as I was going through this process...

I was stressing out about it, right? I was like trying to optimize the restaurants, but then like certain restaurants, you got a book and this and that. And it's just, there's a lot of planning that goes into it. There's a lot of planning. And you know, and, and would be happy to do all of this stuff. But you know, she knows I'm obsessive. Then she's like, well, if I do it, you're going to complain. You're not going to be happy. She's planned a couple of previous trips. And you know, there were, of course in retrospect, they were amazing. But in the moment I've been like, why the fuck are we in this place? Right. I don't like this place. And then, so she's just like, okay, you do it then. I'm not even going to touch this one. Right. Um,

So we go to all of these different restaurants. And my general sense was that one is that we spent a lot of money. We spent a shitload of money in a lot of restaurants that maybe they weren't worth that much money. We did have some really great meals. So for sure, overall experience was good. I don't know how much the reviews shaped my perception of the restaurant. Because you read this great review, then you go there and you're like, oh, it's delicious. But maybe...

Maybe it was actually shaping my perception of the restaurant. It was, yeah, it was giving you biases. It was like priming me. Yeah. What, you know, like it was giving me biases, right? Or it was tapping into my biases. So I, so yeah,

The next time I go on a trip, I've built a methodology. Because... And the reason is like, you know, okay, you overpay, you look at all these reviews, you get all, you know, kind of confused. Then you go to the hotel and then you always think the concierge is trying to jack you because they're recommending a restaurant, they're getting paid. You know what I'm saying? Like, I know they... It must be. Think about it. If you were the concierge in the hotel, you'd totally be getting paid off all the time. Because, right? Fuck yeah. So...

Then we walked around. And then, okay, Shanghai might be a little bit different. But, like, Florence, it's like Italy. Well, fuck. Like, every restaurant's probably awesome. It's fucking Italy, right? Because, you know, the crazy thing is I went there, ate like a pig for 10 days. So check this out. For, like, 9 or 10 days, 9 days, I ate whatever I want, every meal, even, like, buffet breakfast. I was going mental. Like, you'd never seen me.

Like Justin's style, right? I would have been proud. And then you would have been really proud. And, you know, I only exercised like maybe half of what I normally exercise, but we were getting in lots of steps. We were very active because we were going to a lot of places. So by the end of the, during the trip, I was feeling guilty. But by the end of the trip, I was like,

Dude, I've blown up. I've probably gained like five pounds, my body fat, all that stuff that I've been really working on. So I go back, I get back in Shanghai Monday morning. First thing I get in my apartment, get on the scale. I didn't gain a goddamn ounce. Yeah, that's got to be a great feeling. So I'm thinking it's partly just being active, which just shows you that you don't necessarily need to work out, work out. You just have to be active.

But the other thing is, I think, the food quality, right? So I put together a methodology that I want to share with you. It's very simple. It's three angles, right? So number one is, like, when you choose restaurants on a trip to take the anxiety out of it, right? You just... There's three...

spheres that you can use. So one is ask your friends, ask anyone who's been to that place, friends of friends, just give me some good restaurants. I do that for people all the time for Shanghai. So like to your point, you can immediately take that 10 years of experience of living here and then just narrow it down. Plus your friends have similar standards.

Probably. Or, you know, like they're closer than anyone from TripAdvisor because they're your friends. Yeah. Right? But when it comes to food, it's tricky because food is very personal. It is. But like your friends, like you go out to eat. But it's as good of an approximation as anything. Right? So that's number one. That's easy. You just ask a couple of people. Right? And then number two is you can go with the critics. So what I do is I'll take TripAdvisor, Yelp. I'll take Eater, Google.

I'll take some websites that I feel like I like their brand and they're kind of, I'm connected to it. And what I do is I just cross reference the list and you'll find there's overlap. So there's 20 restaurants on Connast and 20 restaurants on Eater. I just find the common ones, look at the description and then you can come up with a short list. And then the third thing that I feel like I don't do enough of, but I should is,

because I feel like there's a lot of hidden gems is just walk around the neighborhood. And because in Italy and Florence, literally within like a block, like you have hundreds of great restaurants. And so don't take anybody's word for it. Just go and look and see like what restaurants are full with like the local people. Look at the menu and go there and then take these three things and then just choose a couple of restaurants from each bucket and then just compare and let it be fun rather than stressing out and trying to optimize it.

but sort of just take the attitude that, hey, I'm going to try different things. And in that process, I'm going to find a couple of gems. You know what I'm saying? And then bam, bam. So like it takes a little bit like so. So is this a method you came up with? Yeah, I came up with it based on this last trip because I was stressing out. Because I'm like, I'm going to Italy. I motherfucker better have great stories. Like I was like, I'm going to come back. People are going to ask me. I'm like, yeah, I went to all the best restaurants, motherfucker.

Did you? So how was it though? So it was good. So do you want to hear some of the places we went and then what my general opinion is? Yeah. Well, how did this method work for you? I didn't use the method. Oh, you just came up with it. Because I used some of the method, but I didn't. So the critic thing I did, but I think I spent too much time on the critic thing. So did it live up to expectations? Not always. What percentage of the time? What was the success rate? It's difficult to say. Um,

So like a couple of the restaurants are great and then like one of the restaurants that both friends and the websites recommended that was like the best local authentic place we had to take a bus to get out there. It wasn't that good. They treated us like shit. Yeah, see. You know what I'm saying? Like we literally, we took a bus. It's super stressful. We don't speak the language.

And it's backwards. It's not like China where shit's like bam, bam, bam. Right? And so we finally get out there. We were the first ones in the restaurant. It's about 1230 on a weekday. And it's a nice restaurant. And it's a little bit disconcerting. We go in and there's this big Italian dude with glasses. And then he's kind of being a little bit of a prick. Or a big prick, actually. And so it's just me and Anne. And then we're like, buongiorno. Yeah.

And then he's like, he's very busy. He's doing all kinds of stuff, right? And then he's like, and after like two minutes, finally, he's like, okay, you sit over there. And then we're like, okay. So there was like three seats, but one was near the hallway. So I was like, I don't like that. So I'm going to sit here. So as soon as we rolled up, he said, no, you sit here. I was like, okay. So I'm getting a little like, I'm like, okay. It's not my home environment, right? I can't be like the boss.

So we sit there and then I'm like, where's the menu? Right. And then he's like busy. You know, the service is terrible. Yeah. People start milling in.

And then, like, everyone who comes in here is, like, fucking godfather. It's like, oh, bonjour. You know, it's like, oh, you know. And then we were, like, fucking the only chinks in the whole restaurant, right? It was like, and then we're like, what the fuck? And then he'll pass by a couple of times and be like, oh, you need to mend. And then he'll go do other stuff. And then you'll forget. And then you'll forget again, right? So finally, another more, like, a more mild-mannered guy with, like, so that guy was, like, kind of more in a chef suit. I'm surprised he didn't blow up.

If that was in China, you would have blown up. I know, but it just shows you that when you don't have a position of strength, you become meek. Yeah. Right? And so then another guy comes up and he seems like, you know, just like a normal Italian dude with glasses, but he has like a blue dress shirt. And he's a little bit nicer and he spoke, he actually spoke English. And then he's like, oh, you need a menu. And then I'm like, you know, yeah. And he's like, we don't have a menu. We use a voice menu. Yeah.

It's like, they don't have menus, right? I'll tell you why later on. It's because it's a traditional family style restaurant. They don't have menus because the structure of the meal is set. There's like this, this, this, and this, and it just changes. Right? So you're basically like, hey, Fredo. Hey, we have chicken today. What do you got today? Right? Oh, we got a pasta. You know, like, so we didn't know that. We're like retards. So then he's like, oh, what about this? What about this? You're like, I'll have the number 13. I'll have the number six. You know? Yeah.

So anyways, and then... So then the whole restaurant eventually, within like 30 minutes, completely filled. And it's like all like Italian people. It's like... So we get our stuff and it's okay. But it's just like very rustic. And so my... It sounds like a good meal though. Yeah, but here's the thing. Okay. For us gringos, for us foreigners, when you go to Italy, first of all, Florence...

I don't think it's known for its food. It's actually not a place where that has like really great, great food. The Florentine food I found, I didn't like, um, we,

We all know Italy for the pastas and the sauces and all that. Florence is more known for its, like, architecture and art. Yeah, yeah. In Florence, like, the local food, like, they're very proud of it because that city was, like, the capital of the, you know, the artistic world for a long time. So they're very proud. So they're proud of their food. But the food is actually very strange. Yeah.

The pasta, that's like Napoli, Bologna, there's other places in Italy. So I don't think Florence is known for their food. Their Florentine steak, which I'll get to later because we had another meal. Was that the picture you sent me? Yeah, it was like eating, it was like taking a cow, Justin, and literally biting off the cow. Because they're not like, if you ask them, I want a medium, I want a medium well, they're like, if you wanted a medium well, you order another steak, not from here.

You know what I'm saying? So anyways, so this place, like we ate, it was all like kind of local food. It was okay. It wasn't bad, but it would just be like eating on the block here. But that was like the sort of like the restaurant that local people... It was even in the Michelin Guide. It's not a Michelin star restaurant. It was in the Michelin Guide. My Italian buddy recommended everything. But it was a little bit just sort of like, okay, you got to just...

For me, it was an experience of, you know, kind of encountering, confronting Italian chaos and then kind of getting a sense. And so now the next time you go, you'll be a little bit more knowledgeable. So at the end of the meal, it was fine, but it wasn't like what we expected. And then I was like trying to sort of connect with that waiter guy. And, you know, and by the end of the meal, I'm just trying to figure it out. I'm like, hey, by the way, that guy that, you know, that kind of,

very big guy like is he the owner right and then our waiter was like oh no i'm the owner with my brother so that's why he could speak english and he was a little bit more sophisticated because he was actually the owner and he was just telling me like the menu you know we change it all the time this is really a local place i'm like are we the only foreigners here it's like yes you're the only foreigners here

So imagine you go to like this really local Chinese restaurant and like Sanxi. Yeah. And then some like Italian guy walks in. They're going to just fucking like... But if so many people already knew about it and like you had so many friends that and like sources that recommended this place to you. They were Italian friends though. Okay. And maybe they hadn't actually been there, but it's famous. So again, it's this bias, right? Yeah. Yeah.

But if it's famous, they should be used to having tourists there, right? No, but it's not really famous. It's, I don't know. Famous amongst the locals. Yes. And we, I kept wanting to go to local restaurants. So you go to these restaurants, you go to these cities, you look at TripAdvisor, you go in there and it's all fucking foreigners. And then you're disappointed, right? So the whole trip is like all foreigners. I'm like, every restaurant I was going to, I was like, please let there be Italian people here. Then I know I'm in the right restaurant, right? And then I finally go to fucking like local Italian and I'm like, I didn't like it.

Right? So probably... It's like a foreigner coming to China and being like, he's still about to have like Panda Express or like a P.F. Chang. Exactly. So it's partially, you know, our education. But I will say that the first two days we were there, we did find a restaurant on a couple of lists on TripAdvisor. You kind of like cross-check. And then we went there and it was a Italian guy. He had worked in the hotel industry. And the guy was like the most...

He was awesome. His name was, God, I can't remember his name all of a sudden. And he ran this little restaurant and the food was amazing. And he was the coolest dude ever. And there were some foreigners in there, but the restaurant was not in the main, main, main part of the city. And so like it was a lot of European people. It wasn't just like Americans, right? If you go to a restaurant, it's all Americans and you better just get out. Yeah.

You know, and that was an amazing meal. That was truly, truly like I had like a octopus lasagna. And then I mean, it was and then we had a guinea fowl like, oh, this was amazing. It was like a guinea fowl, you know, main. And then it had like some kind of sausage with inside. Oh, so delicious. Mm hmm.

So, yeah, so like it's kind of you just have to kind of. So that's why I developed the system of the three things. Look at the neighborhood. Look at the critics. Go to your friends so that these three things are not going to completely intersect. What you want to avoid is going to a single source. Then it's biased. You want to choose three sort of related but independent sources, intersect them. And then in one of these three, you're going to be able to uncover a gem. And that's why I walk around the neighborhood because you'll uncover some great things, you know.

So that was my nerdy methodology that I'm going to adopt the next time. Well, I think it's really important no matter where you go is to, it is to understand the neighborhood. Walk around, you know, don't just live off of the websites and concierge recommendations. Last time I was in Spain, we found probably one of the best restaurants I've ever had in my life. And it was purely just by dumb luck we found this place. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

And it was like, just like you said, it's like, this was in the South of Spain when you went. Yeah. This was, what was the city or the town? Malaga. Malaga. Malaga. Malaga. Malaga.

And yeah, it's one of the best meals I've ever had in my life. It was all locals. They didn't speak any English. So, you know, it was hard to order. But once the food came, it was some of the best dishes. Were they nice? Were they pleasant? Yeah, as pleasant as can be. Not like my Italian? Yeah. In the beginning, it was a little weird trying to communicate with them. And they were very busy as well. But there was no like outright rudeness. But we were the only foreigners there.

let alone Chinese people in the entire restaurant. No one spoke any English. But it was really good food. But that's the thing with food too, is like going back to what you were saying, it's such, you know, everyone's palate is different. And that's my issue. When specifically when it comes to food recommendations or restaurant recommendations, it's hard for me to really trust other people's recommendations when it comes to food. Because most of the time,

I don't, it doesn't really align with, you know, my palate. Because I like, you know me, I like the worst foods. You know what I mean? I like fast food. I like everything, everything unhealthy, I like. I like to eat. So it's just, I guess it just comes to a different palate. Yeah. So I would say if you go to Florence, you know, don't, they're not like, they're not,

known for pasta but it doesn't mean their pasta isn't great see that the thing is like you go there and you're like oh like let's eat what the locals eat then you eat all this weird stuff but it is Italy so of course they make pasta right it's like you can go to Beijing and get Sitzfan food but Sitzfan food just tastes good you know what I'm saying yeah so you go there it's like I don't know you could try the steak if you want but it's served like rare medium rare it's like this thick

I mean, literally, like, and then, you know, the steak came. It was three pounds. Like, literally three fucking pounds. Who's going to, like, I mean, you could have... I was, like, so Anne was like, I wish Justin and Howie would eat it. Right? And when you taste...

kind of rare medium rare steak steak doesn't really have a flavor to it so that was the Chianina like like that cow is like prized cow it grows in the in the hills of Tuscany um you know it's the highest quality meat you know

And they sort of put it, I can't remember how they make it, but basically, you know, high temperature, they sear the outside. It's relatively rare on the inside. When you're eating it, it's literally like eating socks.

You know what I'm saying? It's like it's just it's just you're just eating and just going through the meat. It's not flavorful for me. Like if you eat great tuna or you even eat great salmon, there's a flavor, there's a texture. But this is just like eating like meat. But they love it. Like they absolutely are like proud of it.

So it's interesting, right? So I don't think Florence is the best place for eating Florentine food. But if you just want to eat general food, it's amazing. So the two best meals, one was that guy. It's called Borgo. The restaurant's called Borgo. And it was amazing. The guy, you know, he caters to international audiences. Really, really good.

And then the other place was actually the panini place. So the place is called Eno. It's called Panino is the name of the panini, right? And it's just Eno. And they had the most amazing sandwiches ever. Oh, my God. Was it pressed? I don't know if it was pressed, but, like, the bread, like a focaccia or whatever, the panini bread is just, like, super – it's warm and crispy. Mm-hmm.

and just delicious. And then they have like the meats, the sauces. So they have like 10 or 20 different kinds that you can order. They give you the description. And then in the restaurant, they also sell some of the ingredients and then they have like different books. So there's a book about paninis with this like really handsome, like Italian guy with curly hair. It looks like Andrew Bocelli or something like that. So you're looking at the book and then you go to the counter and you see the motherfucker. Yeah.

You're like, but I don't know. And he's like, he's kind of shy, you know? And like, we literally went there like three different times. And there was one where, um, so the, the,

The salami was called finocera or something like that, finosomething. And so what it is is like it's got fennel in it. And there's stories behind every different type of salami because like for that particular salami, there's a story of like, oh, some guy had a big stash of it and he had to hide it. And so he didn't want it to spoil. So he just put a bunch of fennel in it or something like that to preserve it.

it but that fennel salami was like incredible and then there's different like stracciatella which is the type of cheese in the in like legitimate burrata in that region they put stracciatella not mozzarella but it's like stracciatella in the burrata that's the creamy stuff so it's less sour than mozzarella so then and then they had this like pickled pepper sweet sauce that you could buy and

And it was, like, probably the best panini you could ever have. That sounds so sexy. Yeah, it's so amazing. But, like, so then to me it was, like, you don't have to go to Michelin Star. We went to Michelin Star in the four seasons. Like, the service was absolutely, you know, impeccable. Like, the guy was super cool. They were, like, you know. But it's very commercial. Like, all the guys are trained to be. It's almost like going to an Apple store. You know what I'm saying? And you're paying…

You're paying for the experience and it's a great experience and I think I'd do it again probably but you might be able to get the same level of food somewhere else. Well, in terms of pure just outright deliciousness, I mean, the panini place was the fucking best. Yeah, yeah. Right? It was the cheapest. That's what I'm saying. Like, that's my more, that panini place would be like,

my sense of like that would be like a great meal right oftentimes these Michelin places it's like so it's so like fufu you know I mean it's it's so like upscale fufu and the plates are just like more like works of art

rather than just like meals. It's not about eating. It's about there's so many different things that they're looking at for the overall, like they've created this abstracted, you know, this abstract concept of dining experience of dining. So from the service to the meals and just the plating and everything, right? It's less about just purely eating. It's more about

It's like going to an art show. Exactly. But, you know, it was a good experience. And, you know, you got to try different things to get a sense. So we try to do a little bit of everything. And then so I'm refining that approach on my next trip. But I think the next trip I'm going to...

index more heavily cheaper places and places from the neighborhood that we discovered organically. I think that's where I think we didn't index those sort of... Indexed. So you keep like records? I do keep records of everything. You keep records so if you had to go back again you would just like pull up that file? Of course. From your index? I have all of... I have the names of the waiters, the chefs, you know, like I mean I should be a critic, right?

You should be. You'd make a good one, actually. I think you'd make a really good one. But has traveling always been something...

Were you traveling early on in life? No. Like as a kid? No. Not too much. You know, I'm the older child. So, you know, the family in terms of the finances, you know, they're definitely more conservative growing up. My brother went to Spain when he was like fucking 10, right? Motherfuckers like having tapas and shit like that, like drinking wine, like, you know. So he had like a different worldview. Yeah, he had a different little bit. I don't know if he appreciated it because it's about how you appreciate it.

I do know the story that he's like 10 years old, having tapas, Aperol Spritz, whatever, right? And then other couples, American couples are like, oh, your boy's really lucky. And this is also back in the day. Now we're even more international. People are traveling more than, let's say, 20 years ago. The first time I ever traveled really outside of Texas was...

was when I was like, you know, in high school. We went to like Florida for Disneyland or Disney World, sorry. You know what I'm saying? So I didn't get to travel too much. Yeah, I don't know. I think, yeah, I was traveling at an early age, but almost always to like Asia, right? That's cool. What was that like for you? So, yeah. Oh, no, I think it's really important, right? I think...

Whether you're lucky enough to be traveling when you're younger or when you're older, I think it's important just to travel, just to experience different cultures. Do you remember your first trip outside of the U.S.? No, I don't remember specifically which one was my... Because it was early. My first trip out of the U.S. had to have been...

Well, I wasn't born in the U.S. You were born in Hong Kong? Yeah, I was born in Hong Kong. In Hong Kong. And when did you move to the U.S.? How old were you? Three. Three. But you don't remember? I don't remember anything. I don't remember any of that, no. So you don't remember. What was your first memory? So my earliest memories were already in the U.S. Okay, so do you remember your first house?

Yes, I do. And we were in New Jersey at the time. Yeah. A town called Berkeley Heights. And so I remember growing up there. And then, you know, almost every summer, I think we would fly back to Taiwan to see my grandparents. Yeah. And go to Hong Kong. Yeah. See my dad's side. So we were always doing that. So just that alone. But then eventually, you know, we did take family vacations to Europe and stuff like that. Yeah.

you know, South America, whatever it was. So, I don't know, I just think like if I were to have kids, I would want them, I would want them to, I would want to expose them to the world

as early as possible and as much as possible. Right. So I grew up with a lot of my friends and they never left the United States. Yeah. Only until very recently, you know, they did. But growing up, they never left the United States. What did they think of you? So they were always living in their bubble, you know. What did they think of you when you traveled though? Did they make fun of you? Because, you know, like. No, no, they didn't make fun of me for traveling. No. No, not at all. But it's just you have a very different worldview. Yeah.

You have a different perspective because you see more things and you experience more cultures. And you become more cultured yourself, I think, for being exposed more to the world. So you end up having a different worldview. And you tend not to live too much in a bubble, which a lot of people do. A lot of people really never leave their hometown. What was the first observation you made when you had...

the opportunity to go to different places and then come back to the U.S. and then you had that feeling of like, you know, this difference. Did you ever have that feeling? Oh, yeah, it was definitely a difference. There was almost a little bit of culture shock, I guess. But it's weird. Most of my culture shock really was more going back to the United States.

Right. If I like for summer vacation or something like that, summer break, if I was, you know, in Asia for like two months and also I go back to the United States, it just felt really different. And I think what impacted me most about traveling to different places was, you know, there's you realize there's it sounds stupid to say it sounds so obvious, but there's a whole nother world out there. The world's out there, you know, and you kind of you don't.

As a young kid, you don't really understand that until you travel. You know, because your whole world is... So you noticed it. You noticed there were differences, but you weren't able to articulate it or kind of process it. Well, I never consciously really thought about it. It was just, you know, in hindsight, I think it's definitely shaped who I was. And it wasn't until I started getting older where I can actually... Because we know when you're a kid, you're almost with your parents, right? But when you get older...

I started off like I started out like going off on my own at night just wandering you know streets or just going to the local bars or going out to clubs just by myself right where all over wherever I was and then really yeah and then you meet new friends right you went clubbing when you were like well when I was old enough to go clubbing yeah like 18 yeah when you're like a teenager right yeah so

So you end up having all these different experiences and you realize, wow, there's a whole nother world out here. And it can be just as fun or better than home, which is kind of like at first when you first realize that, that's kind of like, that's a pretty significant change.

to have as a young kid, you know what I mean? To realize, oh, there may be better places out there and you're experiencing these places or at least you think they are because, you know, you're in the moment, right? You're having a lot of fun for however many days you're there. So all of a sudden you think it's like this magical place and you go back. But I think that's like a, that's a very significant thing

thing for for anyone growing up is to understand that good or bad there are other cultures and to understand that there are a lot of other cultures that are not as nice as where you live and to see to see like you know real poverty right to get that perspective yeah is also very humbling yeah right so um i think that's important in anyone's kind of development

It's, it's, I think it's key. At some point you have to go through it. I think I was lucky. Well, you were lucky that you were exposed to these things. But when I think back, I only went to Florida with my parents. Like, so up until my adult life,

I only went to Florida with them, ever. So all of my international experience was some type of reaction or some type of instinct on my part. But literally in the first 18 years of my life, we didn't travel. We had like one vacation. Everything else is like within Texas. So I don't know if I...

had that same perspective as you did if like wow there's other places i want to go like i didn't even know i probably didn't even want to go i can't even remember the first time i went international was after college and then i decided i want to go to europe so i think all of my international experience happened as i was forming you know forming myself as an adult and then after coming to china and it's a long process and some people never get that opportunity you know

So that's really interesting. Yeah, it's like, you know, the movie The Truman Show with Jim Carrey, right? Yeah, right, right. It's like when he leaves that bubble, when he leaves that dome, that's kind of like the feeling for the first time. No, now you take it for granted. We go to different places. But he knew there was a – like, in his heart, he knew there was a Fiji. But Fiji wasn't Fiji. Fiji was just like there was something more to life, you know? And it's really interesting because I don't think I ever realized that. Yeah.

The fact that I even came to Asia is just a total chance. If it didn't happen that way and work for certain companies and it didn't have certain thoughts, I'd probably be a different person completely. Completely. You know what I'm saying? So I think we take it for granted a little bit and we probably should be more mindful and say that most people haven't had that opportunity. We take it for granted that everyone's international like us. Yeah. But it's not true. It's not true. The fact that we can kind of communicate...

and build connections. Like anywhere I go, I feel like I'm able to relate in a much more intimate way with people. You know what I'm saying? And like, I don't think that I would have that ability had I not, you know, just fortuitously, serendipitously come to China. So, yeah. What would you think, I mean, do you feel, did you ever feel an impact? Like, because you started traveling later in life. So you started seeing other parts of the world, you know, when you were already...

grown, right? So did it have an impact on you at that point in terms of you feel like, do you feel your perspective had changed? Was there like a very clear change of perspective? That's what I'm asking. I don't know. I think it's, I think it still changes. I think it's always changing. And I think it's a gradual process for me. Some people like are able to articulate and say like at this point in my life, at this moment, at this year, this day, I had a massive shift. And I think,

You know, perhaps I have some of those, but for me, it's more like gradual. Like even this trip to Europe, I've been to Europe like three or four times in the last year because of Anne. But even going to Italy, like I'll give you an example of something interesting is like, so I spent, you know, eight or nine days in Italy. And then like, you know, literally I flew into Barcelona at night. And then the next day in the morning, we took a red eye out. We got back at night. And then the next day I took another flight out.

Um, but after that week in Italy, when I went, so it was uncomfortable in a way because I couldn't speak the language and I don't think Italians are known for their English. Um, when I landed in Barcelona and even though I really enjoy the Italy trip,

I felt a sense of home because I speak a little Spanish. And then Barcelona is actually a major city compared to Florence. Florence is like a village. It really is a village. And it was totally different. I was like, oh, finally, I'm back in civilization. Hola! I'm like, hola to every motherfucker out there. I was like, hola, hola. They were like, who's this fucking... Yeah, so it's still changing me. And it...

One of the reflections I had was that I'm in my comfort zone in China for sure. When you're a guy that has traveled around the world and you speak fluent Chinese and fluent English, you go anywhere and you're kind of like, yeah, I run the show. And I went to Italy and I was like, I don't run the show anymore. And it was like, the humility and just like, you know. So my another learning, so I actually put...

You're going to laugh again. So I actually put together my five key learnings for the trip. I put together a post-mortem for the trip. So you treat your trips like it's this big project, assignment. Yeah, because I want to get better. Yeah, like exit interviews. Exactly. But one of the things I was like, make sure that...

You study the basic local language and the customs before you go to a country. And that's such a no-brainer. Right? Like people who come to like Asia, they're like studying like, okay, should I bow? Should I say this? How do I give them name card? It's interesting. We've actually almost lived in a foreign culture for so long that we've taken the foreign culture for granted. So China has become my America. You know what I'm saying? So we need to go to more Chinas.

yeah in that sense like not like we need to go to more new chinas and so it's like my comfort zone so it was cool because then i realized all the people that visit me in shanghai all the all my colleagues that are foreigners what their life is like in china it's not as easy as you think oh yeah you know what i'm saying not like i just take it for granted so like i just take it for granted like every time we go out i just like all right

You know, I just take care of everyone. Right. But then I realized that like not everyone feels that way. And like what we do for our friends every day, it's like it helps them, you know, so.

It's interesting. You got to push yourself. It's like the fear zone thing, right? You got to go to places like Italy or the local restaurants and have motherfuckers yell at you and shit. Like, no, not that that's a table. This is a table. Yeah, yeah. You got to humble yourself. But I like what you said about, like, you know, we take, like, it's so basic to understand places like customs or traditions, right?

or just basic etiquette, you know, before you get there, right? Whether it's tipping or other things. But I think Chinese people are the worst at that in terms of understanding etiquette in foreign places. Because right now you have so many Chinese tourists going out in the world, right? And a lot of them...

are not as, let's say, quote unquote, cultured or exposed. And they're leaving China for the first time, whether they're going to the States or going to Europe, right? And there's so many, right? That a lot of them are actually, I think, giving, you know, giving China a bad name.

Just by the way they act in certain places, right? They have their kid just like peeing and like shitting in the middle of the sidewalk. I didn't see any of that, luckily. But I've seen it in the States. You know, they treat it like they do here. Like, oh, a kid wants to go pee or go shit. They just, you know, rip the butt flap, right? And then just go on the side of the street or in a trash can or somewhere, something like that. But they end up doing that elsewhere. And they don't think twice about it. They think like...

Like they don't have like the even common sense to be like, well, maybe that isn't done in every part of the world. You know what I mean? I will say, okay, so I'm going to take a opposing view. But again, my view is based on snapshots. What I saw, what I've seen in the last few trips traveling internationally is that

the Chinese tourists, because, you know, like there are Chinese tourists in Florence and Barcelona, whatever. They were pretty legit. Like they were acting quite, like there's nothing that stood out in a negative way. And I think that for sure, you know, we've been through, I mean, I've been in China 15 years, like we've seen the evolution of how people interact with the international world and how customs can kind of merge. But, yeah,

No, I would say that, you know, all of the Asian Chinese and especially the Chinese people are very respectful. I was a lot of them, especially the younger generation. I didn't and I didn't see anything like it wouldn't even come up anymore in terms of my mindset. Probably in the last few years, I would say like three, four or five years. I would say that, you know, we talked about the service standards in China and.

But extending that to Chinese visitors in other countries was, you know, has been, you know, there's nothing out of the ordinary. Well, there was a funny thing, though. I'll share this as kind of, I thought it was kind of funny. I don't know if you'll think it's funny. So we're in the Uffizi, and it really takes you through the initial, you know,

the art from the early Renaissance, probably 1300s. And it goes through different eras. And it juxtaposes this with like the Greek and the Roman, the lots of statues and stuff like that, because all of this is influenced by that classicism. But then this notion of God and Christ and all that stuff comes in and that drives much of the Renaissance art.

And so like everything you see is just, you know, you see the Madonna, you see the baby Jesus, you see saints. And like, so there's a theme, there's a clear, very calculated theme in terms of all of these artistic pieces.

And so then, you know, as a lay person, as a person who doesn't, you know, I'm not an artist. I don't really know this stuff. Right. I like classical music. I know much more about classical music. I don't know anything about art. So I'm looking at this stuff and it's beautiful. It's awe inspiring. But you can't really tell the difference. You don't really know. Like you need to be educated to do this stuff.

So you see these things and then, you know, then you notice the expressions on people because everything is religious. So imagine like modern day, you can do any kind of piece of art. But back then the thinking who did the art, why they did the art, how they did the art was all within this framework. So you see people and so all the expressions in the paintings are just kind of like, they're kind of expressionless. But there's a reason for it, right? If you really study it, like everything is a symbol.

And the funniest thing is that we're standing there, we're looking at something, it's like a massive painting, and everyone's just like, and I'm like, man, like, yeah, that's kind of just strange. Like, everyone's just so expressionless, right? And then there's these two Chinese girls behind, just like, 这怎么所有的画画都是所有人都是那个表情就是收瓦子。 And I was like thinking the same thing in my head, right? And they're like, they're like from the north, they're like, 每个人都是收瓦子。 收瓦子。

I just like, me and Andrew were just like, we were laughing our asses off. Because it was such a priceless, natural, spot on observation of like what I felt. Yeah. But in a different, like in a Chinese Beijing way. Yeah. So what?

So it's like someone had to say it. Yeah, someone had to say it, right? And I was like, right on, girl. So, but it made me want to learn a little bit more. And I, you know, I bumped into like an army guy. We were talking about what are the distinguishing features between the things? There's a lot of what humans do is like, what is the thing that takes one thing and makes it a new thing? What's the distinguishing feature? What is the stuff that differentiates it? You know, it was really, really interesting. And it's like, so there's a lot to it. And there's a lot of depth

there but it's overwhelming it's grueling it was painful like we're in the museums i'm like yeah no no a couple more hours i gotta i gotta see the michelangelo and she's like i'm done with this it's like but do you do you do that just for the sake of being able to say you've seen it no or are you really interested generally okay here here's what it is first of all i'm not i don't give a fuck about what other people think um

In terms of enjoyment, I do enjoy it, but it's not like drinking Obon. I do it to push myself to understand more, to learn, but it's painful sometimes. It's like learning math or physics or whatever. It's like once you really learn it,

you feel good about yourself, but the process isn't that comfortable. If that makes sense. I'm not an artist, but Anne like kind of enjoyed it. Anne is a painter. She actually, she saw all the, um, the Greek and Roman classical sculptures. And there's like all these rooms and we saw like David and Michelangelo, David. And she, it was, she appreciated because she used to have to draw all that shit. She's like, Oh, these are the, who these motherfuckers are. I didn't even know who they were. Yeah.

She didn't even know who they were. Like, oh, that's not a so what. Yeah. Well, you get to, when you go see or go into these museums, specifically if it's like a gallery or a showing of, or a department just dedicated to a specific artist,

you gain a much wider or deeper appreciation of the art itself, right? When I was in Spain, in Malaga, that's the home of Picasso. It almost sounds like Malaga. Malaga. Malaga. Malaga. I call it Malaga. So Chinese people go, Malaga. Malaga. So we went to the Picasso Museum there. And I'm not like a huge art guy, but...

I'm a huge fan of Picasso now. Oh, yeah. Yeah, just going to the Picasso Museum, looking at his work. Yeah. And you get to see the evolution of his art through the different, as he aged. So when he was a young man, his art was one style, one type, and then he developed his style into a different type, and then

Later on his years right before he died he had a whole different style you know so it's like got to see this whole progression and seeing his work like in you know face to face was Was really cool. Why yeah, his work is fucking awesome. Yeah, like if I could afford it I would buy I would try to buy his paintings. Yeah. Yeah, so it was the

the different phases and then you can see his mindset changes. So it's a metaphor because it could be music, like a band goes through different eras and changes. But once you're able to understand a little bit more of the technical, because there's a technical aspect of it. If you don't understand a technical aspect, you're kind of overwhelmed.

Because, like, if you don't know what the expressions mean, if you don't know why these people are in the painting. Because think about for hundreds of years in the Renaissance, like, you couldn't have, like, a Justin and a t-shirt in the painting. You know what I'm saying? And then there was one painting where I was like, it was a kind of a Christ painting. But then there were people in the painting that didn't belong in the era. So if the painting was from, you know, Christ, then that means it's like, you know, 20 A.D.,

But then there were people that were dressed like they were from the 1600s. And then I remember noticing that. And then I was talking to some people and they're like, oh, whenever you see people that are anachronistic, they're not in the painting. It's because they're the one that paid for the fucking painting. So they had to put that asshole in there. That's why he's dressed in like normal shit. Right. So there's a technical aspect of the painting that, you know, that that's important. And like for you, like in the Picasso painting,

I don't know what museum that was, but maybe they have to have enough of the art to be able to show and articulate the difference, and there has to be education. Because if you're not educated on the art, you can't appreciate it. Yeah, well, you walk around with the headsets, and then when you go to each piece, they have narrative. Did you have to pay for the headsets? You had to pay for them, right? Mm.

No, it was part of the entrance fee. You know that when you go to the Uffizi, you go to all these things, you have to pay for it. And then, you know, there's a lot like I'm a cheap ass motherfucker, so I don't pay for it. So then I paid for it and then I got a lot more out of it. So what I'm saying, like for me, it's like always get the headset.

And then when you go to a city, do the research on the experiences and have at least if there's five days, have two days of people taking you through. Cause those were the game changing days for me. And I kind of regret I didn't do more of it because there is the organic aspect. You want to give yourself one or two days where you can just discover things for yourself. But the accelerated learning, cause we did the cooking class. We did a secrets of a Renaissance, um, tour, um,

And those were like really game changing. If we hadn't done those, then I don't think the trip would have been the same. You know, so that's why I'm also trying to develop a simple methodology for how to do trips rather than just a massive travel guide. Like I want to give people the best tips on how do you create an incredible two week experience, but not get so hung up and like all the options. The options really fuck you up. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, like I like in retrospect, I enjoyed it at the time. I was a little bit stressed out. I wish I could go back and just fucking chill. So when you come back, do you just like sit down for a few hours, like typing up like a report? I do it during the trip because I have these. So my five tips. So for all of our listeners.

nascent watchers, the post-mortem. Because during the trip, I have these things where they're unresolved in my head. There's conflicts. I'm like, we didn't do this the right way. I get pissed. You're so crazy, dude. So the first thing is...

buy a travel guide i forgot to do this buy a travel guide to supplement the internet research because there's a lot of little tips in terms of how you travel when you make that mistake you waste a lot of time you waste a lot of money there are certain things that we didn't figure out by the travel guide it'll kind of give you those tips get rick steves or get whatever get lonely planet but like get the travel guide not so much for the content but just what not to do not how to up right

The second thing is study the basic local language, explore the culture a little bit, respect a little bit, try to build some of that knowledge.

The third is book all your key experiences in restaurants two weeks in advance. I did some of that, but really try to book is like you don't want to book every night, but book sort of the basic framework of all the places you really want to go. The Michelin star restaurants, all the things that you need to do. Like we had to like there are certain things we couldn't see because we didn't book ahead of time. Whereas for Uffizi, we just got right in. If you don't book ahead of time, they're booked out. So at least two weeks.

The fourth learning is particularly for me and people like me who are a little bit neurotic. Leave enough white space for unplanned activities and last minute changes. That's pretty key. I think Anne would have appreciated that more if we left more white space for sleeping and sleeping.

So you guys were on, like, such a tight schedule. Like, you guys didn't even get enough sleep on your vacation. No, we got enough sleep. But she needs, like, 14 hours a day. So I'm like, God damn it, get up. And be like, gotta go. The sun's been up for hours. I know. So, like, there were a few days where, like, we... And it was just stressing me out. And then the last one is a very simple one. But I paid an extra...

a hundred dollars in cab fares because I didn't learn how to read a bus schedule and locate the nearby bus stops so we got we had a point where in the last day we had to get back to Milan and then I was like oh fuck and the you know we're on the lake and like there's a boat and the boat's like it doesn't leave it doesn't you know they don't have the boats so then I'm like

The next boat doesn't leave for two hours. We can't make our flight. Oh, shit. And I started freaking out. And then I was like, okay, we got to call a cab. And then, like, you know, in those beautiful islands, the cabs are ten times the cost. And then as we got in the cab, motherfucker, I saw a bus stop right there. You were just kicking yourself, huh? I was kicking myself.

I was kicking myself. And I had to really tell myself, the cab is a better experience. The guy's really cool. I get to talk to him. You have a hard time just relaxing in general, huh? I do. That's crazy. But, you know, it's a balance because you don't want to be too relaxed. You got to get on with life. Well, sometimes you can be too relaxed. Yeah. I mean, there are occasions where you can try to be as relaxed as you can. It's true, right? I'm relaxed now. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.

Thanks for sharing. Yeah. Yeah, man, we've been missing you while you've been away, man. Trying to like, you know, you've gone like two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. But I have an idea. I think we're sort of, we had a good chat today. But I'm really interested in your, as you were growing up, and we know that in terms of food, you know, you're an amazing chef, right?

you've tried a lot of different foods, you've lived in a lot of different places in the world. So I think in a future episode, we should go through sort of some of the experiences you had as a kid in international cultures, which kind of shaped your culinary career.

I'm very, very interested in that because you know I'm your biggest fan, Chef Yang. But I think we could probably devote a whole episode on your perspective on food. How it's shaped my palate. How it's shaped your palate, how it's shaped your life, and then what your opinion on food is. I'm very interested in that. What's my... In terms of philosophies around food? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you cook food and how you do it? Because we know we've had...

You know, lots of great meals. And I'll take a chef Yang steak over that Florentine fucking cow shit any day, dude. I don't want to eat cows. Oh, we got to do a barbecue again, you know? That's right. Especially before it gets too hot outside. That's right. Should do one. Let's do it. Cheers to that. Yeah, cheers to that. I think that's a good topic. We can talk about that next time. When Howie actually wants to grace us with his presence. Oh, yeah. He's got other priorities. I mean, that motherfucker was like...

Like, did you see how he tried to, like, just... It was so... He tried to, like, weasel his way out. Yeah, he was such a weasel. He's like, yeah, you know... Like, once, like, we let him... Because I knew we let him off the hook. Yeah. And once I, like... We were like, oh, well, we can still get together. And then he's like, yeah. Like, well, no, no, no, that's great. Like, you solidify your ass, motherfucker. I just blew a bunch of whiskey in my eye. I'm gonna rise to the sky, we'll see my right eye.

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