Encore: Is founder fame an asset or a liability?
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Discussion keeps the world turning. This is Roundtable. You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Young. I'm joined by Yushan in the studio and also...

Steve Hatherly in the studio as well. Coming up, imagine you're launching a new product in 2024. Who would be the best spokesperson? A celebrity endorser or the company's founder or CEO? These days, more and more founders and CEOs are stepping into the spotlight as the face of their brands. Does this help the brand to build trust and credibility or does it create risks?

if that person's reputation takes a hit. Our podcast listeners can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcast. Now let's move on to the next topic of today. Let's dive into the fascinating world of personal branding and business. Elon Musk has become a global household name, more or less, synonymous with Tesla and SpaceX.

but he's not the only one making waves. Lei Jun, the founder of Xiaomi, has recently led his company into the electric vehicle market with success. As of March this year, nearly 200 automotive industry executives have joined microblog site Weibo, with 30% of them signing up just last year. It seems like personal branding is becoming a key strategy for many business leaders. So do you agree

I agree that founders and CEOs, they are so closely connected to their brands at this moment. Yes. Nowadays, we can see a lot of these founders and CEOs are often closely associated with the brands they create or lead, although they are not necessarily synonymous with the brand itself. A lot of consumers will link them with image of the whole brand. Many examples, both from global or domestic

Steve Jobs and now Tim Cook from Apple, right? We know that. Mark Zuckerberg from Meta. And also some Chinese brands such as Yu Ming Home, the founder of education company New Oriental and Dong Mingzhu, the chairwoman of the home appliances giant, Gree Electric.

So we can see recently the news of Xiaomi's automobile SU7 with 50,000 units in sales within just 27 minutes of its launch. This is an astonishing number for any car company, I think. Therefore,

It has sparked online discussions about this phenomenon with more and more CEOs of such companies, especially these tech companies, going to these live streams to sell products, open social media accounts to showcase their daily activities even, and acting as brand representatives. So I think this is also becoming a kind of promotion strategy nowadays. I looked it up because I never considered this question before. Why do

some companies have a face to their brand and some other companies don't have a face to their brand. And where do consumers fit here? Like what do they enjoy? So I found some business website that said a few of the reasons that people, consumers like it when a company has a face, for example, an Elon Musk, just to use him as an example, people can relate to a face. This is what they said. People can relate to a face. Everybody has a face. So when a company has a face,

People like that. It makes them feel comfortable. They say that spokespeople are usually seen as credible and trustworthy and authoritative and authentic as well. And then brands that have a face, they help themselves to stand out because it makes them more memorable with consumers as well. When we think of Tesla, for example, why can we so easily remember Tesla as

Part of the reason is because we think of Elon Musk first. That's the immediate association that our brains make. And that's why it can work for a brand.

Okay. Well, raise your hand if you've ever bought a product or service because of the CEO or founder's reputation or face. That's a good question. I don't see any hands shooting up. No, I don't think I have. And I'm trying to think if there's ever been like a spokesperson. You know, we're talking CEOs here who are the faces. But have I ever made a purchase because of that? I think my answer would be no. No.

That's also my point. I don't seem to like or buy any product just because of its founder. Unless it's a kind of a small street stall where I really like the owner's personality or something, how they deal with people. So I visited frequently. But

For higher value products, I might still consider the quality or cost effectiveness or something like that to decide whether to buy this product. Have you? Not for any of these products that we're talking about, well, immediately associated to this discussion initially, but...

I'm a huge fan of fashion. And when I think about fashion, though, so... That's different. That's designer or... Like designer can decide you to buy or not, right? So the designer definitely becomes a main draw to how you feel about a brand. But a lot of the famous designer houses today that we see in the shopping malls

Their titular designer have passed away. For example, like Christian Dior. He's no longer with us for many years. But his original designs for anybody who likes fashion, who looks into this stuff, you would have this image associated with the brand. But if you look at recent designs, huh? So I guess...

It has an impact, maybe to a certain extent, but it's not exactly because... But it's more about the design than the person. Because you might think, oh, Gianni Versace was this incredible human, but if the designs aren't good, you're not just going to buy them anyway.

That's true. Right? So it's still the design. Yeah, but I think you're on to something there, perhaps. Have you ever heard of the halo effect before? Where you just see the spokesperson of a company or a brand and you have a good opinion about who they are. The example that I always think of is Matthew McConaughey, the actor in America. Yeah, yeah, right. He's the spokesperson or the face of a car company, Cadillac.

I think it's Cadillac. I could be wrong. Don't quote me about that. But anyway, so he does these TV commercials where, you know, he's driving in a car and he's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, or whatever he says. And it's funny because in my brain I'm thinking, there's no connection at all between Matthew McConaughey and this car company. Zero. But it's the halo effect. People really like him. So there's an automatic connection

liking and trusting of the brand that he's representing in that moment. And I think that's what we're talking about in part here with these CEOs. You talk about Mark Zuckerberg. He always has had a pretty good reputation, right? Really? Well, I mean, from a business point of view, he started it on his own. Maybe that's not even fair to say. But my point is that from the start, he was the face of Facebook.

and people didn't hate him for that. And he's always been the face of Facebook. Elon Musk for cars. Martha Stewart is a big home, kind of cooking and homeware face of a brand in America. It can go really well. It can.

But it could also go really badly. If that CEO or that face of that company, all of a sudden there's a scandal, something goes wrong, then your company is going to be in a whole lot of trouble. Because, yeah, I was also thinking I might choose not to buy a product because I dislike its founder. So much, huh? Yeah. So much hate. No, no, no, no.

But, you know, finding a reason to buy something is hard, but finding a reason not to buy is quite easy. I don't know why, but that is what I was thinking. I found an article from Reuters from April 2nd from this year. And the title of the article was, Would B-Tesla Buyers Snub Company as Musk's Reputation Dips? And they talked about this survey that they did. It was from a...

A company called Caliber, I don't know what that company is anyway, they conducted the survey and they said through their survey results that his reputation in terms of consumer confidence was about half of what it used to be.

So people who would have considered getting into Tesla stocks or something like that have changed their mind because of things that Elon Musk has either said in the media or his right wing political stance. So this is one of the examples that we're talking about when things can go wrong if the face of the company's image is not seen in a positive way.

And also, you guys kind of mentioned in a way that maybe the founder or the CEO of a pretty successful company. I mean, the examples we've given are massive companies that probably most people have heard of around the world. But, you know, there are lots of startups. There are some small and medium-sized companies as well. And then they're possibly saving up on advertising fees or something.

marketing fees or whatever it is, why not just put your founder's face or name or short videos out promoting this company or brand or product? And then what I'm trying to drive home here is we possibly live in a society now in China, which is kind of different.

from decades ago that is a successful business leader, him or herself, is enough for some idolization. - Maybe, maybe not. It depends. You know, I remember seeing in Korea these TV commercials that come on like later at night and it's some older man, he seems to be in his 60s,

and he's selling some massage chair or something. And he's the founder of the company, and you can tell he's really happy to be in the TV commercial, right? I don't think that guy's influencing anybody to buy the massage chairs because he's the face of the company, but...

I could be wrong because using him as the face, that's marketing to an older audience, right? You're not trying to convince a 21-year-old who's on Instagram three hours a day to try to buy an expensive massage chair. It can work. It depends on the market and I think it depends on to whom you are advertising as well. Yeah. Also, I think this is kind of a cost-effective way to advertise their brands because back

Back then we can see a lot of these tech companies, especially I think phone brands, they like to hire celebrities to be their spokesperson with the goal of leveraging the celebrity's fame and influence to expand their user base. Now if their own boss is the celebrity, it is definitely the most efficient approach and also

I think we have that kind of mindset that we would like to go for somebody who has the authority. And for this brand, the CEO is the one who has the authority. Everyone likes to find someone in charge to deal with. For instance, when we

encounter a problem in a restaurant we would like to go for the manager right so when these brands CEO advertise for their own brands consumers are more likely to be convinced that okay this the head of this company is coming to me and advertising that website that business website that I was talking about before when when they were talking about you know why consumers feel comfortable when

a brand has a face. Well, also in that article, it talked about, well, if a brand is going to have a face, who's the best choice? Who are you supposed to choose? And it said, number one, someone who is your company's biggest fan. Well, that would be the CEO. It's hard to be a bigger fan than the person who created it. Number two, a polished and professional public speaker.

So you don't want someone on social media or in TV commercials who's fumbling through their words all the time, right? So that's important. And then three, a social media expert. They can have a team for that. So maybe you're right. Maybe it is always the CEO who's the best representation of the company because all of those boxes that I just mentioned are checked there, right? With a little practice.

But yeah, and then there's a trust level there because they are the person who created the brand. Also, that's actually not true a lot of times because the CEO and the founder are often, are sometimes different. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, maybe I should be saying founder instead of CEO. Yeah, well, the CEO comes and goes. Yeah. Like, you know, but the founder sometimes comes and goes as well. That's true. Not in a good situation, but that does happen for sure. Yeah. So,

So I can understand for the average consumer, you want someone who really knows the product, who really knows what they're talking about. But when you look at what these Chinese CEOs and founders are doing right now, it reflects the digital slash social media marketing space today. That is, I don't even think that going to Weibo, which is kind of like China's Twitter in a way,

is the right place to sort of investigate how involved these company bosses are doing. I think you need to go to Douyin or, you know, the Chinese TikTok or whatnot to see. Because if, okay, I'll not say the name. This Mr. Joe, who heads a pretty big tech company that's been around for maybe two decades, the amount of short videos that he's turned out in the last few months is insane.

shockingly large. He's really into it. Yes, which makes, because on paper he's supposed to be very successful. And then I wonder if I'm a very successful business person, probably has my own private jet and a million things to do a day, would I... Be on social media all the time? And do so many short videos? Yes.

And also it's really interesting. His style is not very polished. It's almost like, oh, I just decided to do this. And some of the content is interesting. So that's one example. And there's another example of this lady. I don't know if she's CEO, but she's top level executive. Yeah.

of Baidu. And she's recently come into sort of at the crossfire of internet users because of some of the stuff she said, which you could argue that maybe it kind of backfired. She also turned out so many short videos but didn't land very well with a bunch of the internet users. So I just wonder, I admit I haven't done the investigation, but one might want to look at their company's balance sheet and how they're performing to see

suddenly have so many CEOs or top executives to come into this short video platform. Yeah, I mean, maybe it depends on your likability factor with the people that you're trying to convince to buy your product, right? Sometimes it can go super well and sometimes maybe not so well. But, you know, as we've been sitting here having this conversation, I have to change my answer. You asked me before, have I ever purchased anything because of the face of the company? And I said, no.

And I thought of an example. Yes, I did. Do you know the chef Gordon Ramsay? Yeah. You know who that is? The angry cook? The angry guy. Who swears a lot. He swears a lot. Actually, I know a guy, a friend of mine used to work for him. And I asked him, I said, does he really act like that when the camera isn't on? And he said...

Yeah, actually. Oh, man. Because he just wants to get the best out of his chefs. Anyway, that's a different topic. I love his TV shows. So I don't know if he has restaurants in Beijing or not, but he does? Not to my knowledge. Anyway, he opened one or a couple in Korea recently. And I went there because of him. Hmm.

I wanted to try the food. I know he's not in the kitchen cooking the food himself, but still, I wanted to know what the burger tasted like. And I paid about $30 US for one burger. I'll never do it again. I'll never do it again. But I needed to know, is it better? And I can honestly say...

It was really good. Oh, great. It was really, really good. Oh. I can't pay $30 for a cheese. That's crazy to pay that much for a burger. I'll never do it again, but it was worth the experience. Very interesting. And I went there because of him. I love cheese.

I went to another, oh gosh, he's British too, another British chef's restaurant. I think it was in Hong Kong, younger than Ramsay. It was not good at all. Oh, really? So yeah, that's why I don't want to say the name. It can go well or not, I guess. And I was like, oh, I'm paying extra for this? But you did it too then. But I'm not a fan.

No, but you went to the restaurant and spent your money because you knew that name. So it was the face of the franchise that brought you to the business to spend your own hard earned money. Well, lucky for that chef, it was my friend who really wanted to go. And yeah, so. I think that has something to do with the example that Heian just said. A lot of these CEOs are also or CEOs or founders are creating social media accounts.

I, in some ways, same reasons because they are building up a, you know, corporate image by themselves, by using their own faces. You would like to taste this burger because of Ramsey and these CEOs, they are trying to build up a image of down to earth and close to people on these short video platforms so that a lot of these huge, huge

population of using short videos can go to this company because short video platforms has huge user base and that is why they are also trying to

build up a channel or, you know, user channel from these platforms. And I think you make a good point that nowadays, well, these big bosses, they want to be relatable to people. And maybe no, I just know this for a fact, their lives are possibly just vastly different from mine. But they want to appear to be Oh, no, I'm talking to you about this product, you can enjoy it as

as we do. You and I are the same. Yeah. When in fact it's really not. But maybe this is also reflecting that this is advertising today. So you just have to go to these digital platforms and if your company might be struggling a little bit or maybe your company is trying to grow

row or whatnot, and you're trying to capture some younger audiences, then you got to go where the people are. You got to go where the people are, but you got to do it right. Because if you lose your audience, if you lose your audience, radio is the same, right? If we lose our audience, they're not coming back. So it's the same for business too. If they're going to start it, they have to make sure they're doing it in the right ways. Okay. So what do you think is the right way? You only have the chance of one pointer to share with us. Hmm.

Make sure the face of your franchise is relatable to the audience that you are trying to sell your products to. And the same request to you, too. I think don't make audience or people dislike you. I think this is the way that they can do. Don't be a jerk. Every little detail of...

what they do can lead to, I think, a lot of, you know, stock price rising or down. - I think you mean have like a squeaky clean image. - Yeah. - Right? So that there's no possibility of something coming up that could make people really dislike it. - Yes, because they're representing the whole image of their whole brand. - But my friend,

Who today wants to, I wouldn't say idolize, but really like a squeaky, clean, pristine image of anyone? Isn't that just like the boringest thing in the world and doesn't have any characteristic that even shows off the brand or product? It's like, oh, we're the perfect brand. We're like perfect.

germ-free. I mean, I guess, well, germ-free, yeah. Well, if you're selling sanitizers. Well, yeah, like if the spokesperson of, you know, my toothbrush has some sort of scandal on the internet, I don't really care. It doesn't really affect me buying something. I guess it, you know, it all depends on the product. It all depends on the purpose. It all depends on what

goes wrong or what goes right. I don't think it's easy to give a definitive answer here. There's a lot of gray, I think. Yeah, well, I suppose successful companies must strive to build a strong corporate brand that transcends any single individual, in my opinion, and supported by robust and, I suppose...

Well, the lessons that we discussed today serve as a reminder that while personal branding can be a powerful tool, but it should be balanced with a focus on building a sustainable and resilient business model. Think about that. Coming up next, let's have a moment of heart to heart. You ask. We answer. Roundtable. Heart to heart.

We've dipped into our mailbag and we'll just respond to an email question today. Here it goes. Hi, Roundtable team. This is David Kwan writing from Chengdu. Recently, I've noticed many more live streamers dancing and singing on the streets. I understand that this is how they make a living and I do not intend to pass judgment.

But it has become quite annoying to hear the same noise repeated every day. Take the example of a livestream host who sells watermelons through Douyin. And I'm concerned about the strain on his voice from screaming every day. I intentionally decided not to give out the name of this Douyin person. Okay. Okay.

So what are your thoughts on this matter? And I would appreciate hearing your perspectives. I think I need a little backstory. I'm new to the country, so I need a little backstory on what this is all about. All right. Well, live stream selling taps into the evolving context

consumer behavior and preferences, particularly among the ultra connected consumers in China. It caters to the desire for interactive, entertaining, and social shopping experiences. Basically, you are on these platforms on your phone or in front of a computer and you're

That person's talking to you live. Okay. And a whole bunch of people, probably millions of users, but you leave messages and everything's interactive live. And then you shop in that live streaming booth on the internet. It's like a live stream, social media, home shopping kind of. Yeah. Kind of thing. They are. I think why David is annoyed by them is because they are live streaming in some of these public areas and that is affecting them negatively.

They're in a public shared space, but they're using that public shared space for their own personal gain. Yes. And can I just also please add one point that just by the tone of the email, people

this live streamer is possibly conducting the business maybe outside of David's home or something like that. To the point where David is personally affected by this. He's constantly getting updated with watermelon prices every 15 minutes by the sounds of things. Yeah, and they're shouting. So I was thinking that is actually the point of we are discussing because if they are not bothering anyone else,

or causing harm I would say it's really their thing to do or their business everyone has their own way of making a living I have to say and in the digital age content creation has opened up a vast array of opportunities for people to no matter its earn money or make a living in unconventional ways so of course we can see some instances where they're you know live streaming on the streets affects others such as occupying the

pathways and attractions for extended time. So we can actually see recently some attractions like a Forbidden City have introduced new regulations that prohibit commercial live streaming within the premises. So related regulations are also very important in this way and from a broader perspective, I think the internet has making the entertainment more

personalized and wider. You know, these content creators often build communities around their unique styles, their audiences to name because they find something entertaining or relatable or useful in that content. So, I mean, if we think of buskers as an example, people who go out and

set up to play their guitar or play their instrument and sing for people and hopefully make a little bit of money too. I don't know if this is exactly the same thing or not, but when we think about buskers and singing and playing guitar, there's a positive connotation there, right? We don't look unkindly on that. What if that person is really bad, bad?

Well, then I was just about to go there. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Now, what if there was a busker, you know, line of performances and everybody was screaming and terrible? Would people be put off and bothered by that? Now, imagine that those buskers are all performing on your street where you live. David, I think I'm in agreeance with you on this. David, if this is where you live...

then I have sympathy for you. But if it's not where you live and it's just out in the community somewhere, as long as that person, the watermelon guy, isn't breaking any rules or breaking any laws, then I don't think there's too much you can do about that other than email us. Well, if it's busking...

That's street performing and those kind of things. In China, in most places, I believe you have to apply for a license. For a permit. Yeah, to do that. So I would think it should be, I would think, the same for people who are live streaming. But maybe it's unprecedented. Yeah.

So maybe therefore there's no regulations put in place already, but maybe there will be soon. Yeah, I appreciate David for writing in, emailing us. It'd be even better if you send in a voice memo, asking for too much, I suppose. We're happy with whatever we get. But certainly you could leave a message on that person's Doe-Yin.

Comment section. Yeah, I guess. And that person is reading these comments frantically. Protect your voice. Yeah. And then, you know, leave a message, a few messages, you know, bomb that place. Say, look, you're being quite noisy where I live. I want a 75% discount on all watermelon purchases. And that brings us to the end of today's show. Thank you so much, Steve, and Yushun, for joining the discussion. I'm Haiyang. We'll see you next time.