Gensler Steps Down! A New Era for Crypto Regulation? | Crypto Town Hall
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Welcome to crypto o town hall IT is friday morning ten, eighteen and eastern standard time. And we once again have a lot to talk about. Obviously read title general steps down a new era for crypto regulation question mark.

I think it's fair to say the answer to that is yes. Many, many, many of us were waiting to finally see gary dangler stuck IT up and quit. I would prefer to see him fired, whether that was logistically ally possible or not. But I will take the win, the get again, or will be gone on january twenty.

If I think it's absolutely hilarious that he posted this on estimate his announcement where likely nobody likes him and said he was quitting and then he said a thread and i'm pretty sure that ninety nine percent of the people who saw his suit did not bother to read his silly thread because all we wanted to know wasn't he will be gone, obviously, as we have some question and we knew that there was coming. But who will be the next chair of the next question? That that person will be far more bullish for the egypto industry.

We've seen the appointment that trump has made so far, uh, obviously also waiting on the treasury secretary, which I think will be very, very vital, pivotal in the way that things move forward. Hard to keep up with this new cycle， but we know now that trump did actually have a meeting with bright and armstrong gto CEO coin base, which was uh theoretically going to happen. They did not sit out in person, but they did have a meeting on the phone.

And the main topic was who will be the head of the S. T. C. And the C. F. T. C. You have to give trap a lot of credit for doing exactly what he said that he would do, which is interacting, interacting with the industry, asking leaders of the industry who should he should appoint and looked into their advice. Think a lot of people feared that he wouldn't follow through, but right now he's definitely going to the industry, uh, and he couldn't.

Other council and advisers, and even potentially eclipsed, are someone a actual cabinet position in the White house that would oversee all of these agencies and all of crypt to policy, which I think is absolutely huge, because even with pro cyp to people potentially in these conditions, you need somebody to make sure these inefficient agencies are talking to one another. And we have a code of policy that they is much more likely that that is going to happen. Assume they appoint someone IT was broken that one of the leading people for that position is Crystal ang Carlos.

Rip to dad. You may remember, uh, we all love him. He was the head of the C, F, T. C, and would likely be a perfect person for the jobs.

So all things looking bullish for the crypto industry in the government as we see bitcoin, ross, ninety nine thousand dollars before slightly retracing one percent, less than one percent actually, from hitting a hundred thousand, which many people thought was impossible so much to unpack your a lot of this being driven obviously by institutions and specifically by etf, seeing crazy, crazy inflows into the etf, but maybe more compelling, a launch of options trading on some of the etf this week. I bit first for black ground, of course, but then bit wise art Grace fail, getting IT just a day later. We have jeff here from bit wise and putting you on the spot. Tell us what's going on, what the options, just how successful have to they been our people using them. Just watch your view as to what's happened with this option launch this week and how much that's affecting this fish to ninety thousand.

Yeah, what a time to be living this week with the events of the options, which I had anticipated we might get early next year. And I am really just a wrongly surprised by how quickly the C F T C N O C C moved to even target for thanksgiving. As you said, it's been really a amazing week to see these folks come to life.

Uh, no doubt often I can played some role in the a marginal demand. Um I think there is a lot of interesting things that I monitoring. The first is how is the wall surface of these etf options compared to the debate wall surface? And are their notable differences in the ways that cyp donate of participants are behaving differently than traffic?

The other thing that is interesting to keep watching is actually the voluntier ity surface of the same essentially underlying big coin etf. Amongst the variant issues of you said we've had black rocks come on tuesday. We've had hs come on wednesday among st.

Our peers. And there are some notable differences, as i'm observing, in the kinds of flows actually even a bit offer that the designed market makers are participating across. We the liquidity is being provision for. I think it's early days. Of course, we haven't even hit a week in farming up these markets, but I do think there's a lot of interesting things going on for those who are watching carefully from a directional perspective is quite obvious that are most of the open interest and and demand from day one and continued is coming from relative to puts, uh, is something that have been monitoring across x 是 from the near data all the way to the jan twenty seven leaps。 And it's actually even more pronounced the further you go up the curve.

I think on day one for ibt options, the book cover show was less than point one on the jet twenty seven uh contracts, which I think confirms one thing that I had believed would be the initial drivers of trading activity. People want leverage. People want capital efficient ways to access bitcoin.

Uh, today, at least more so than maybe seeking down section. And actually there's a really good reason for this. You know, one of my jobs, at bit wise, is to talk to investors every single day to enthuses this mission.

I talk to lots of advisers and downs family officers. And when they come to the conclusion of investing in, they asked, what's the right size? And generally, the conversation narrow to this one to five percent range.

But the reason they'd go for that number is because that's the number where if IT goes to zero, it's not going to make a huge difference in the overall portfolio. Now if this goes text x IT actually dos matter and IT will be a meaningful marginal contribution to the total return. And so when you unwrap that thought process, essentially they're underwriting a call option, right? That's exactly what an allocation that goes to zero or ten ex could feel like.

And so if you told the same person, hey, you could buy bitcoin at three percent of portfolio, you can get much more notional leverage and have the same premium out that you're potentially underwriting that I will go to zero anyway. I mean, the math is pretty clear. There are people who are gonna ther express IT in in a capital efficient way.

And and I continue to believe that is singularly where a lot of the most interests arise. I think in the future, we will definitely have people who want protection, who want principle, protect the structure notes they will want, buffer calls they will want to do more exotic things in the realm of loss management proof distribution. But the reality is that take time.

That market takes a long time to develop. And we've seen some violence come through this week. We we saw the hundred percent principle protected, the ninety percent downtown side present downside.

So they're coming and those things will create flows on the put side as well. But as I see for the time being, it's really sophisticated or professional retail investors trying to maximize their capital usage to make directional bets ambiquity. And right now, the seventy minutes.

yeah, I had dream stay ford on my show and then he was fear, said basically that first day of the gap, eight percent option. So literally just people betting on a future higher Price of bitcoin. I think there was a lot of conversation about how these would be used for the cash Carry trade.

Obviously, you know shorting future is buying spot taking advantage of the yield. But he pointed out and actually as amazing as this launch is the max uh allowed as twenty five thousand contract, right? And without think this size and volume, you know the movie see two hundred thousand contracts.

So I actually institutions really can't do this in size enough to use those to for those opportunities right now. I guess they can spread IT out among five or six ish yet twenty two thousand years. But but so is this really is right now the way they structured have been launched that they don't change IT is just Better for making your directional bets.

Yeah yeah. I think actually based on the training volume a by bet and it's uh A.

U M IT should have qualified .

for four hundred thousand contracts, not even uh versus twenty five um even the rough equivalent to C F T C C M E futures equate to the open interest maxing out about two hundred eighty futures contract which is less than ten times was permit on the C F T C. So he is actually correctly correct. The lower bound is, uh, conservative, tapping said.

I also think this is the reason why we are going to see diversified volume across these multiple listers. In a way, I think this is the chance a bit wise to compete for some of these flows despite relatively having smaller A M S. And I bit but really, you know, I think and i'm a little surprised by the slowness of IT, this is like a feast for market makers.

And I think about like in the seventies when people would have said black was wasn't common knowledge and those who knew about IT were printing money. Now everyone knows about IT. It's not 星星。

Arbitration play fall literally this moment right now feels like that for somebody who can look across B, I, T, B wall surface, I bits, wall surface, gray scales are be, and just look at the empty wall spread and the money, which takes a little effort, right? Because all these E T S of different denominators distracts won't perfectly align to the exact moneys, uh, because the unit base rather than percentage base. But you know, there are ways I think people have started to quantitative timely um fitness.

These things and some of the things i'm saying, like the surfaces are not the same. You're right, is not a volume here maybe for institutions to really arbitrate away. But for that reason, I also think it's a great time for retail to participate before before the institutions come and take this market.

hello.

Good morning, Scott. I got to give the approach for being the the instigator of the fire, gary gensler hashtag. I think it's definitely a day where we have to recognize that you were a pretty big driving force behind this movement. But I want to talk about if I could pid IT to ginza er and the reverse ginza er effect that we're just starting to see right now. I think that we're only just beginning to understand the impact that ginza antiChrist t to agenda had on stifling growth among all digital asset classes.

And IT doesn't uh IT doesn't a escape me that we had bitcoin break all time high and nearly touch a hundred thousand sala hit and break its all time high yesterday on the same that he announced that he is going to resign. And I think as this and the ramifications and and and the reverberations of this continue to push on through the sector, this is something we're going to be studying. We're going to be studying the before and after ginza effect, and we're going to see definitively that this kind of regulation overreach simply cannot exist and thrive in a free market society.

And when we see the expansion al growth of this sector, we're gone to look back and and understand that I always had the potential to do this. But for what was going on at the S A, C. And I think that something will be studying and talking about for a long time.

dave.

Sorry, had to grab the fun. Two things. First, you know I don't think we're underestimate in the of the the growth of carles. I mean certainly not in my company. I had about A A front row seat towards uh towards being pushing towards dubai opposed to the united states.

Uh, I think it's also extremely relevant with the option conversation because the the fact is perpetual swap are dramatically Better for retail investors that are looking to get leverage than the bid offer. Spreads are way lighter. Most individual investors do not understand volatility and don't know what what how much money they're pissing away to options marked makers.

And this this is just a simple reality that one of the reasons the options marked on under a bit has never really taken off to the extended that has the united states is because perpetual swap are a Better way, cheaper way to get the same kind of leverage. In fact, too much are arguably, I mean, is that I talk about all the time, but to get that same sort of leverage with dramatically lower bit offer spreads and and you're not paying for a volatility that you don't really understand in the U. S.

In in equity markets and in the other markets that, that is gonna a huge hot potato. why? Because options market makers make an absolute fortune.

And I look, I was at at at city group when we bought arbitrator and became to become city group options market making. And I know how much absence market makers made every time there's a big incident of volatility, you've had some unbelievable years. But the reason that options market makers pay for overflow via the exchanges, it's not hidden.

It's it's all public is because retail auto flow is so juicy to make money on. And that is threatened if we ever get perpetual swap or perpetual futures in the united states, which I suspect this administration going to APP. So there's a lot going on, a lot of moving parts with that.

The other point I want to point out is to jeff said, I love living the jeff because everything he said, I agree with what everyone needs to understand. However, most of the people who are buying calls don't understand what put call parody is, and we could get into details. I think it's probably worth the spaces or even Scott, a direct interview to talk about what going on the options market.

But there are many, many uses for options that go beyond pure leverage. And right now, those because of the restrictions that you've mentioned, are more or left a small hedge funds and individuals only. But IT will and IT is being done by institutions, but they're using OTC options to do IT.

And so you have a little bit of slippage cost in doing so. But you know your josh, look on your your your show off and judge could talk about this chapter and verse. There is a fairly standing institutional market using options for building principal protected products and all things like that.

And it's it's worth the conversation. But it's so far down the rabid hole. And I want to do IT now, but they wanted to pointed out.

yeah, anything where you need done that I do you're .

going to rage your hand. You know, I was onna. Do IT. There's a lot that I would agree here. H, and also maybe share a few points of counter.

I agree that retail generally don't always have the financial optimistic cation to understand um option trading. I do agree with this in play. Volatility does take a little more conceptual learning then trading leverage delta one on a purpose spaces uh, no dark.

That being said, the question of whether one is safer or more dangerous to the retail audience is, is one for debate, right? I mean, you you may make the claim that the bid officers are why? And they certainly are today because again, I think the markets kers need to find ways to build inventory, an ways to know where the actions are gonna be to undertake certain pins and that will take time.

But but I think overall um the the thing that I am not so confident on this is that perps are ultimately leverage that is uh that is that is non deterministic and the weight liquidation will rest upon you. You can't be in control of your own destiny by trading that kind of leverage. Even if you look at today microstrip gy right.

And you look at the two x level, E T X, M X, T X right, you'll see toy's one of the days that this broke, right? It's and earth for your screen. But microstrip gy is up more then the two x levered microwaves.

etf. That is the kind of things that I don't think even retail understand when they're trading these types of lever products that claim they're offering perpetual leverage. So i'm not saying the two x levered M S T X etf is the same thing as treating perhaps, but I do think it's a complicated discussion to know our discussion.

But the thing about options that I genuinely believe in is if you know how to make long smart bets on IT, the the way that gives you leverage where you have more control of your destiny is, is an incredibly powerful thing. If you trade, for instance, the very long data epic call option, I think I was looking at some that had the most amount open interest. There's a bunch trading for jane twenty six, the one hundred call.

That's obviously one hundred percent out of the money. You would think that option has no delta because it's so out of the money, but it's not true. IT has fifty delta because ball is so high for a bitcoin. And you can trade this one hundred call strike option with fifty delta for the next two years, where I would guarantee the decay on this is not gonna be nearly as fast as the way that purpose k are gonna against you because it's still a two year uh option.

So all i'm saying is, yes, there is some learning, but I think we till will get smarter as part of what i'm hoping I can do to bring more knowledge in the space and help people make Better decisions. And in the long term, I think options will give investors the chance to control their path dependent outcomes in the ways to constructive that, that par simply cannot you that just gives you leverage day one in ways that you can control your own testing. That's not add a little color to my own thoughts there.

Yeah, we don't disagree. If I just want to point out I did not say Better. I said cheaper.

If you're only looking for pure beta, if you're looking for pure delta, uh, people interchange really use beta delta. That's the mistake because beta is related to the correlation of unrelated assets. Delta is literally same asset.

And your point you actually made my point for me by with that example of the fifty delta. What you didn't say is as the Price moves, that delta could go from fifty two, one hundred as IT goes higher or from fifty down to twenty five years that goes low. And tracking that is hard for individual retail.

But my point isn't that there's no violent options. God, for did that. I think the huge value in the options market huge. And I think that that that you're providing the market the service by what you're doing, please don't don't I just want to make sure you understand that.

What i'm saying is for those traders who are literally looking to just get leverage to go along, uh, it's more decisive and and buy a lot. And and that's why we've seen the markets evaluate. But god, I do think this would be an interesting topic for more in depth.

Yeah, i'm good.

Sorry, i'm turning on the off mute, but it's just one minor point here. Jack mentioned this is primarily retail trattes today, which uh makes sense given the size involved in retail actually having trouble participating still their slow contracts string. So I have a miral account.

I can am trade. I bit no a nonetheless. H you know, I bit options, something with vanguard count holders.

And I think a few other majors are basically like three out of the three, four of the top ten. You you can even trade the etf so you can even think about options yet. So we saw more retail to come. And once these things are unlocked and I think Charles swap C E O said yesterday that he was an idea for applying a coin .

in their and I feel silly. yes. Yeah.

yeah, that's yeah. I guess I guess I editorialize there, right? So this could be more coming on like online like them um 的 体质。

thick also eluded to the fact that they will be purchasing spot t point。 I don't know that was him specifically or talking about swap, but uh, IT was a very interesting comment at least. But your point is well taken that a lot of warehouse ince seven even to prove these.

And I think, jeff, I think I spoke with matt hogan last week and he said if you had to put a number on IT, probably fifty percent of retail still doesn't. Even when have access to, he actually gives themselves much less options. Does that sound about right to you?

I think that's fair. I think IT is incredibly Peterka ism and ridiculous that retail can trade these two x lever microstrip gy h etf, and yet we cannot trade the under line spot commodity. I find that, I find that amazing that in this world that this is, this is being permitted.

I mean, again, today, M, S. X. And no one's gna probably be cover IT. To the extent that there is such unfairness and not allowing between ety of options to thrive, this is a product .

like that.

So you get all that we can. Yeah exactly.

You mention that obviously. So uh, the move has been absolutely astounding. We've talked about IT here very regularly, but you would only broke four hundred this week before a day or two way or breaking five hundred and only broke three hundred.

We could go on monday that was already at four hundred eight days after that. This has been a media c raised rise. But if you look at the chart, uh yesterday, obviously IT uh you know pumped all the way up to about four hundred, five hundred and forty four dollars, ended up closing sub four hundred.

So quite a move, you know fifteen sixteen percent up and down yesterday. But what was notable obviously was that there was massive volume in general had been, over the last few days, the highest volume and traded stuff on wall street period on the exchange. But yesterday was massive volume and a big dump with which many, I think, would view technical as a potential blow off top, or at least a top signal for now.

I mean, just jack looking at IT. But anyone else like watching micro strain here? Do you think this is a time for casting potential?

I want to comment out this a little bit. And also I see in the audience grain of salt, and I don't know how easy uh.

IT is got to maybe permission on the.

oh perfect that you know what I will let grain take over because he has been looking at this with me uh and he is also focus on so many things here that is worth .

bring attention to I have a Green hey.

Folks, good morning. Hey folks. So in so at seven forty two among in san Francisco, so I deployed shade under bathroom hundred and seventy six thousand on the ten eighty strikes for federation march.

I bought a shade under twelve million of the nine ninety strikes yesterday on mind strategy. Pretty bullish on that. Worry about the bid asked spread. I can't get long enough. So well, that might be interesting.

That is a bid ask spread that maybe out of work if you truly believe in conviction what microstrip gy is doing and what Michael sailor is doing. Not really worried about half a point door like pennies. This was the same argument that happened in twenty seventeen.

I, G, B, T, C. They're charging a two percent fee. I made eleven x in from may to december in my total account.

I didn't care about the two percent even if it's one tenth now and it's twenty bips. So worrying about a fee and something that goes up thirty, forty, fifty, sixty percent per day in a position. I'm i'm not worried about pennies. So you know if somebody .

is but you are right about the two to three acts on bitcoin though, the the premium essentially that you're paying for the actual all things that microstrip gy has in the coin?

Absolutely not. That means that you have not watched these videos and understand what's going on. Absolutely not.

But so you're you're Better effectively that the stocks still two two to aff access in the next two to three months.

I'm bedding that IT goes way up from here. I bet that IT gets triple cue inclusion because the rank day is next friday. And so what happens is till prime makes some form of announcement that he's done anywhere from six to eight ATM, he'll do that converts over the weekend once bitcoin hits one hundred thousand.

We all know that's a six digit number. I think that IT runs may be another twenty percent very quickly. And I think we're off to the races, guys.

It's a six digit number. What do you think cnbc is going to do with one hundred thousand? Our big one.

It's going to be on nine stop. We're coming in the thanksgiving. So this is for americans. They're going to talk about some dude wearing a White helmet that's got a fifty million dollar exposure and straight options on microstrip gy. I've gone from three thousand followers to almost eleven thousand flowers in two month. But i've been on, i've been on twitter now for to know twelve years over my profile says so I am bullish. I don't know what you guys, I hope hopeful for you guys are bullish.

Are you to think the thing that I think Green is spring attention to that all of us would into IT and know, is that microscope a technical market today? There's there's there's no way to appreciate the dynamics outside of that lens for the time being. And there is a lot of ways to appreciate the longing vision of of sailor's execution. But no, dad is a technical market, right? As as Green said, the magic inclusion is a big catalyst.

Indexing is a technical uh, liquidity transformation mechanism, right? The other thing was yesterday that converts we're coming to market and pricing today, I believe that settles that essentially hedging activities that is entering at the size that is someone unbelieved what you asked me for a convert market, this convert at zero coupon Price, the delta as I backed IT out at ninety, basically, it's not a credit note stock. And to have converts like that come to the market is a technical event.

Uh, the other thing that I will mention is, is not getting as much attention, but I believe it's really important. And maybe this goes back to the value of options for the leverage. Um M S T X part of I think why is breaking today is because the margin changed overnight. So because its volatility, the banks do have some flexibility and the kinds of march they ask there are customers to front and IT increased quite meaningfully.

So again, this goes back to the question of, like, are you in control of your destiny when you trade these level products where these exogenous variables change against you and that creates problems? I think that also was A A determined yesterday for some of the things that was happening with these two products. I would argue perps have a similar issue, which is these are not termed a financing.

Perps reset almost every eight hours for most contracts. And depending on what the market gives you, I mean, who knows how you're able to hold on to your position, right? But here's a beautiful thing about options.

You pay the premium outlet and that is IT. No one can have around with that in a way that's going to create problems for you because you're long an option for which you paid the premium. There is no unincumbered ginning on that engine. So I think about that as another missing piece in the dialogue of why their safety in the comfort of being to take leverage in that particular way, that that is that is manifesting it's up right now in some of these trading dynamics are microsoft。 Gy, yes.

So I speak from for my experience, what what my bigger concern is i'm not worried about something less than one percent. I'm worried about the total percentage .

gain on my side in interrupt, but I remember that we have five thousand people here, probably nine, nine percent who are not deeply to the options market. So we, I think, keep IT more directional than .

than options s. And i've been listened to folks for for for a long time. I'll leave out the options. My my bigger concern is, is not a one percent on a trade or the the cost to actually do that. People tend to talk about that when you make a large game.

What a bigger, a bigger drag is, is that you don't have long term capital gains, that your taxes on something will be bigger than twenty percent, twenty five percent. So if I have a game on something and I make what something making more than one hundred thousand dollars a year, that my taxes are twenty five percent, that is a bigger drag on the overall return on the portfolio than worrying about what the Price is on the trade. I I think the focus should be on what's your rate of return on your trade or your investment in your total portfolio.

Yeah, it's it's it's a valid question. I take the just for everyone is that options being available on bitcoin is massively bullish and that generally people here even more mass ly blush and microstrip gies on the side Price .

of the right, right? But let's just leave about the opposition and microbe just in general. I think that when people talk about something like a sharp ratio and they say how efficient is something of a trade, what i've said back to them is what I care.

What is my total return on an investment in one year? In one years really important because one to go over a year, you're in amErica and there's five thousand people on the call you want to get long term capital gains and that could drop your taxable rate from over twenty percent, over twenty percent to twenty percent. And that's the bigger that's the more important thing that to be concerned about. My view.

agree. I want to go back to uh to ginza obviously stepping down, which I think leads to a wider conversation about everything happening with the uh trump administration, the appointments that we're seeing, uh, the caption ers still to be filled, I figure majorly impacted for the cypher industry. But regardless, who gets summer a huge upgrade.

Uh, math, they are sort of of watching all this. I know in real time, you guys have your head down. These products are successful. It's not going to impact you so massively. But still, I think it's almost like run a fever dream here with robic encrypt to people being largely appointed to every single cabinet position even once have nothing to do with finance.

IT is a little wild. I like the fever dream a description. And well, it's important who gets these last few posts?

I really think we're now talking at the edges. It's ninety eight. It's ninety nine. It's one hundred. And IT may be important from a short term training perspective, but from a long term perspective, the administration is so procreate to and congress is so programs to that. I think you know the long term trend is in. So we're watching those appointments, but more we're working on the product side to innovate and going out and talking, you know with with increasingly large sort of institutional clients about why is finally time to get off zero. So um yeah we're definitely watching IT definitely matters for our term perspective ita, it'll influence whether we peak our head above a hundred or but um but we're fiddling at the edges now like that the ninety nine percent of the uses in it's obviously .

though you know impacting what kind of products you're going to consider offering in the odds of those getting a proof for, right? I think I think there are lot of people throwing things the wall, hopefully, but now I think was a very good chance. Things like the song T, F.

That you just applied for, did you guys have A P toss etp in europe? You guys are doing a lot right. And you're going to be able to get much more creative, I would imagine, with products. And I saw ryan from the lies obviously what of your team members tweet yesterday about this sort of increased interest in the theory um and the conversation is having a math .

yeah that's absolutely right. I mean unit discuss this. Previously we've have entered the the golden era of cyp to E T P. And you're going to see if he was like bit wise and others apply for them across the board.

Um I believe as market legislation comes out, I also think you're going to see people trying to innovate on existing etps. They're definitely to be conversations around sticking. They are definitely to be conversations around income creations and redemptions. People are probably underestimate the scale of effort that companies will put into developing new e tps。 I think it's going to be a little while.

What do you think will be directionally or just generally the winners? I mean, we know that the big coin body here for when we eventually very successful, especially king comes, which ending in the T P S in europe twenty one shares. But do you think going to be individual asset etf? I see we saw h far etf filed for cool. But like you know how much interests have been in trading spot h bar that IT? Is T F I don't know made to that changes or is he going to be these index product products you are diverse etf, uh, top ten etf, does we know that top people really invest?

Yeah that I think you're exactly right on that latter point. If you think the marginal net vie over the next twelve months is either an institution or someone who's crypto curious and not cyp to expert, there's no way they're going down the chain picking out one asset from you know the the twenty of largest asset in cyp du to add to their portfolio. They're gna want to make you know index based bats or theme based bats.

I tell people this all the time. It's a little bit talking our book. We run the largest ript to index one in the world.

It's about a billion and a half dollars. That's ridiculous in a industry that three plus trillion dollars, right? So I think the the index and theme space is going to be significant. I would look at broad based indexes. I I would expect you know things like the the coin base fifty that people are talking about.

And then thematic index is I think would be a big deal right now if I could buy a index basket of sort of genre highly performing block chains from uh soul to sui to you know APP dos and on down. I think that would be a very popular product right now. So you can see all that kind of innovation.

Yeah, that would be a very tight. I would buy that in the second. Personally, it's just easier than going out and that that the professionals baLance IT for you and get in in one product. I think that those would be absolutely incredible.

Yep, that's going to keep keep me busy. Uh so you know don't tell any of my competitors .

um if any other competitor listening. These are trade secrets and we do not say publicly I yeah .

I wasn't say I am obviously not. I'm like to the financial product side. I'm on the building side. But over the last couple weeks or bunch across the index products and yield bearing products are where I heard all of the discussion and interest from people um because I think there is obviously, you know like when the e uh E T S came out, they couldn't be your burning in the U S. There are some yellowing products um and like hybrid products out in other countries and jurisdictions. And so what I was really hearing was a lot of excitement both from like folks building products, building financial products, but also focus we want to buy them on yeah I think that will be all index and all stuff of how do we bring yield into both flight, the big uh east and uh bitcoin type uh E T P and things that already out there since you know who doesn't love nice dividend flows, H H H is something super accessible and understandable to like the fixing market.

But is this one of those situations? Now where is next expectation? Because we're getting a new administration and new regulators, we will be able to do things like taking inside etf. I think we have this sort of sentiment that everything we want to do, we're going to be able to do maybe wrong is a question for you. You're here and you understand the political landscape, but we still need laws, right? I mean, we can't just all the sudden say I can take coin basic list every single point that is this because as right now, we don't have clear still as to what those are, right? Assume that trump has administration, whoever is in power won't go after us, but can be sure, right?

Yeah, no hundred percent. And you're write that. H, I think I law the stuff. Uh, at least one comes to the talking. Clarity will probably see most come from the S.

C that can take some time 啊。 And then congress is going to take just as long, if not, maybe like a year and half or year to year and a half for for fifty one or our markets cure kind of like build because what congress has in front of IT is a whole other issues are trying get, but some touch cyp like tax like we didn't have a huge taxi in about six, eight months and a lot of cyp to previsions there that we're working on get included there. So um by no means like on the token cLarry stuff, it's kind of a grey area at this point. But um we can have P C P election as well, a obvious the administration coming in and um IT seems the world can see a lot of potential rule making for the S C or request information, but they're gonna IT the ground run. So um I think just get ready for that.

So I think I would say I think part of the reason was hearing the exciting on the yield side to is because that is products we've seen in other jurisdictions already. And if I were calling wrong pricking from wrong here, that was purely an S E C. Decision of them not wanting to allow any yield on the utp night. A not a legal, not a not a like .

congressional .

one for but I do .

know yeah, I was just going to say I think that I think it's important to remember that it's not going to be a free for all, right? If the if the playbook in all season is to keep going down and down the spectrum to the a, the smaller and smaller coin, there will be a bright line, even in the most open optimistic scenario, uh, there will be a line between what's allowed and what's not allowed IT.

I think I think people could do well to read the fit twenty one bill, which talked about where that line LED they're going to be. You know assets that are on the wrong side of the regulatory line, wherever. It's just it's not just going to be completely wide open. So we'll do a lot more, but we're not going to do everything you know from one to one thousand. I don't think that will be that I mean.

fit twenty one and remind to me of mega right in europe, people said, i'm really glad we're getting some sort of regulation. It's great that we have clearly, but not all of it's that great that is that accurate? I mean, fit twenty one. And people were excited that we were seeing a bill past, but most of IT is not crafted that well for the industry.

Yeah, that's right. Or or at least for some parts of the industry, like any piece of regulation, there's their elements of regulatory capture in fit twenty one, right? There's like a twenty percent internal ownership line and their differences between you know individual owner, ship and treasury opperation.

It'll be lots of games manship around there. I do think it's Better than nothing and I suspect will get a more liberal eventual bill. But IT again, it's not a free for all. Like people interpret IT is a free for all. They'll be a they'll be sad in six months time when they realized they're still there are still a bright line at some point in the spectrum.

Yeah, I actually somewhat worried for .

I .

am all for a financial conclusion, and I think it's great we get native diversification in biness index products like the coin base fifty index is really cool by the issue is we see this in traditional finance is uh you know passive products don't lead lead to discretion and actually the underlying purchases of these assets.

So we really see this problem today with this like huge layer ones that have no utility, that have ridiculous treasuries, that incentivize projects to build them just by grants. Um you know fans um uh I would even put up doors and sun, I exert others uh and you have these new atf that are going to have diversification allocations to each one of these. So there's in the queen bed, fifty is three percent X R P, two percent cardono.

Like I think these are just going to give a longer and longer ways to these projects that I think I have really minimal utility and ecosystem and just um become a bit of a chAllenge for us as an industry. And I think that's why we really have to watch out for. So what does that mean? That means we need more discretion and we need um folks are calling these things out and um we we can't just have these the zombie assets that live around forever and really fracture mindshare um or fracture investor attention when they really aren't developing um underlying projects that could could be really successful. And we're seeing that in the proceed see stage.

Hey folks, can I try me on this first, second? Um look, I guess they were talking a lot about these bills disclosures was going out these things. But I remember S P F, uh, talking in front of congress and went through something as a very respected person less than four years ago.

And the guy is now doing twenty years in jail. So I think with talking about these disclosures and so forth, I think a very, very small percentage of retail actually reads these documents. Much of us understands them. In my situation, when I talk to investment professionals, they barely understand just bitcoin in general. And so I think that I love talking about this on the space. But I think with five thousand people, I think that a lot of them, or maybe you just run to survey, you can ask that question, how many people actually read these actual documents and even understand them? If I come across regular people for the past seven years that don't even understand bitcoin, and even if something does talk about IT from a position of running an exchange, he ends up in jail that that actually shows that he was following trying to follow these rules, which didn't make sense because he is in the bahamas.

So I think that he argues that S, P, F. Was trying to follow the rules and ended up in jail.

No, what enquiring that is that he was a respected person four years ago, presented in congress, was offshore in the bahamas, and he was given a free past when he did that, but then IT ended horribly. So I get that we're talking about this right now. But do the actual retail traders read this and understand this, if even sophisticated people did not understand what F T. X was doing, they understood .

that they were getting huge donations from him, that they could go talk to them because was giving them tens of millions dollars. A different situation. personal.

I mean, yeah.

I just one of whose .

entire job is to be on the lobby side here been doing for five years, like we were lobbing towards the end when S, P, F was trying to get regulatory capture for just a centralize exchanges at the expense of screw over d fight.

And then are being like a coin base, watching association rippling all of the folks against, uh, F, T, X and I but that dynamic, I will stress that is going to be what a law of loving balls are gonna and that's going what eventually unlikely will delay things like for twenty one with a lot of inside between uh to math point, uh know some areas can uh A A lot Better uh or more fair regulation understand these bills and in some cases some sectors get he was screwdriver or it's more uh difficult to say where the exactly land. So and we have also remember that travice and I ve been having numerous meetings of travel folks even more before election, but he has ramped up significantly. Just more cares about what's going to happen on the regulating and legally in front.

So we're going have a lot more new players in D C. Who try to uh use this time to get in a regular or capture um and our entire e system. Lets get regulation moving in regulation moving because this could be the most sweet OPPO years and after that I could really uh you know be display congress and things ground to a halt. So we are really people time. But i'm tell you right now love IT behind the scenes of a couple of companies, but it's coming a lot of infighting .

within the industry. Uh, and you remember .

to be more about the whole, imagine it's the tense gunn really big so it's gona be exciting but are interesting.

对 yeah a couple of things。 I mean, first, you're going back to a you know the notion of what retail investors look at. I mean, that is true.

I don't think there is a human being involved in traditional Marks who think that elector that's not at a law firm uh that things that the current way ipos work is expensive as they are with all the the disclosures that are based upon a paper system, literal based on the paper system, uh, make sense. I think you know anyone has followed ran circus before and after four years has been talking about Edgar and how you need to do a Better job. I mean, we have examples in every other industry where the internet is revolutionized, disclosures and made IT accessible to people.

And we've not done that for investments in any form. So there is clearly scope for human readable, human understandable standardized disclosures that make sense of people would read as well as potentially review sites to other, other little spin whole other businesses when this is opened up and make the investing landscape make more sense. So when you are you see this, by the way, in various places, whether it's nerds or others that evaluate other financial products online, four people using public information but to stealing IT.

And I think that is A A meaningful trend that the next C C. Chair will probably a push forward because it's one of the things you can do to Normalized IT with cypher a but push that to the side. The most important thing that wrong is saying, and he he's absolutely right, is because i've been involved, as i've said, on so many industry committees in the traditional world, and that always evolved into incredibly detailed things.

And what really needs to happen here is get the base policy right, things like you call the sand, but call whatever you want to call IT. I think safe harbor to allow projects to move forward within define guidelines to clarify what ecru pto exchange, what their legal status is so that we're not you're not constantly worrying about all those things are within rent, within reach. If someone like Christian carlo becomes a Chris POS r IT becomes with in reach if it's a more technical person or a legal person, you can end up bog down into the the details.

And so a large part what's going on now is and why the market is is finally starting to pick up. But still so by for kate is got you mentioned on your show this morning how bitcoins market cap of three trillion, you would expect to look at and see all coins with some of them really flying. And outside a lot, we really have been seen that. And so a large part of that has to do with the the the uncertainty of whether or not this is going to focus on the big boys or whether not is going to be a broad base approached the innovation and want to you get those people on the seats, that's when you're going to see you rally.

Guys, I love this conversation and I would love to keep IT going, but I have a very important thanksgiving show to go to at my kid's free school 啊。 This is not the only host that means that spaces has been for the day, unfortunately, going to head out. I hope all of you have a great weekend.

We will be back, obviously monday ten, fifteen A M eastern standard time. Have a good one. Everybody is on monday five.