Thomas Hogg on The Hidden Cost of Government Inefficiency - MOB022
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What people don't realize is that twenty percent of united states GDP comes from workable neighborhoods in its top thirty five metro areas. Twenty percent comes from these tiny urban areas.

And it's, if you think about the city of london, right, which is this one square mile which makes so much for our GDP, if you think about silicon valley in the united states, which has a higher GDP than thin and just that small area of the united states, the world leading experts come together in one place. And you've got universities, you've got a private sector, you've got A A highly skilled workforce. They all come together to to produce something more than the sum of their parts. That is how silicon valley has done the amazing thing it's done. That is how the square mile has done the amazing thing that it's done, these are the winds that we can do, is not about spending more money, is about spending IT way more efficiently and getting much more out of IT.

Tell you about that. So as color was saying, we won't see the riders and let me look at me and ah and we had this idea by the local foobar club and no there's no club in england that use come and crossbones as a logo and why not yeah I mean, across was a cool the all the humans sent pali yeah um you got the radar and it's cool we went with that we actually this is our so be stolen idea of imported .

so that's our tunnel amazing so that's that's certainly gonna make some feel a bit intimidated coming out there.

Well, we played death metal as well. So the players turned up and they walk down the tunnel. And this is dark red, all the graffiti. Larry, death metal is where I stole.

The idea of australian levels rise.

There are more over there are quite .

socialist cup.

We are more amax in the way we do things. But yeah, it's been it's been great fun.

And you, you you can build a real brand. That's what's the poly i've done right around the world there a second bond's league team. But around the world there are. Now, you can do so much for that.

Well, we got, we saw, I mean, color does emerge. what? Seventy percent goes the U.

S. yeah. Really seventy person goes to the U. S.

We got this, a supporters club, minnesota, their mind report, this club, we were tenth to english football. yeah. We had a supports club in minnesota.

There's one guy. Go Edgar. He comes over every year, annual holiday means, like running down the side of the pitch of the flag. But yeah, no, we ve got this because the bitcoin club.

yeah yeah yeah .

we have IT of love that so yeah it's with the real thing, tell you the story of that. We wanted to change name of the club because there's bet for town. We got confused with each other and I was watching into miami in america.

I like, ah, that's a cool idea. Let's go a rail bedford, and and so we got all the merch designed be out of emerging, everything's sorted. And we went to put the club register into the face system.

IT won't accept IT. There was already a rail bedford, oh, really yeah, they were a sunday league side playing on the fifty year or sunday league football. But can you can't have to get names.

So where to approach him? By the name? I met him, by the way, the other day come. But yeah, we had to go buy the name of him. So you you .

should consider putting a crown on top of the skull for for .

the rail people take. So I got one talks about about the story right out. I on the spot, I made up this story about this battle that was force because it's the spanish in bedford.

amazing.

Went back with the tails between their legs, honor dust, and referred to as as as a rail befit because of the leadership of the the army. For Better, you can make in the ship up. Got a game because you you from back, right.

originally from ham, but I live in back. Yeah so I used .

to live in high and I really.

yeah, that's really close.

And to universe and filter in our league. Okay, so we ve got them soon.

You played, you played .

just recently, the all women sides really good but now you know our chassidy .

really .

yeah well I didn't then the main sides okay, trying to think with they are what .

division I haven't been .

following IT, I have to admit ah this really ah national league yeah .

that is nice. It's lovely. Other I got to go ta say obviously really nice connections into london as well makes a nice .

and these well your book which received not not with enough time to read the whole thing yeah um so I read I read the the the kind of reviews the star yes I read the intro which immediate grab me um and then I kind of look through the chapters and you've got those great chapter summaries at the start and very helpful and then I focus on attacks but I was like how on a second this just all make sense because this we're time right where everything appears to be completely fact and getting worse. And me, as I tell you where it's what he spoke to me as a business owner, a taxpayer, you know, I give you one anecdo that really the interview should be you sorry.

one part where you talk about .

a the tax code have complicated is how much time we think that I spent an awful lot money on with my accountants during my vat return for everyone of my business and my and new returns i'm spending. I'm pushing for businesses on pushing close to hundred thousand pound a year and and that's just on the book keeping to do the tax returns. Yeah and that's just signal that's such a misallocation of capital. One tiny part I like to give you hundreds but was like, huh? So anyway.

i'm just on on that one. By the way, it's not just a mislocate of capital. It's also misallocation of your brain time yeah because that time could be spent doing something creative.

The stress that is involved in that actually diminishes your ability to do these things. And when you look at large businesses versus small businesses like yours, you've got to spend a lot more time thinking about that rather than growing your business, thinking about future opportunities. Large businesses, they can just show them away and attack team and they get on with IT, and they're not nearly as affected by IT. So these these really complex regulations, IT is in in favor of the guglia at the expense of the David.

Well, that I made such a great point. So recently with the new labor budget, I know if I I got friends, people, labour voters and very defensive of IT. And to most of my answer is go and run a business and then come back to me and tell me what you think of this budget.

By the way, that's not me supporting conservatives because I think conservatives over the last fourteen years haven't really been a conserved party. I know you are councillor. I am historically the only party i've ever voted for.

I have voted in the last two elections. I think three, maybe because of this, but we can get in all of that. But i've got four businesses. This podcast owner, bar cool.

yeah. Korea wants to anybody.

Is those mainly stress actually your trading stress to be cool of the own foobar club? Yeah that's school. And we have an events business and we do two events a year, but we try to open a coffee shop at the moment in a one a fifth one, but is part of the football club.

So we want take club shop in the town center where people can buy merch tickets for games and the germany adds an at the right town center. Um our goal is to get a team in the foobar league that's a big plan, right? Uh but IT won't a cup shop.

We're making enough money to pay for itself. So what a lot of other people do, that the rug we be Better. They have a coffee shop and the coffee shop pays you.

You have the cub shop.

Yeah but i'm going through the process of basically sending the sup and this this experience business. Yeah we set a budget which is our ah we separate our cbc s and our our backs investment that starts probably up to one hundred grand in terms of like the fit out and stock and what we require. And then uh yeah, we have an ongoing couple of requirements about cash low.

And i'm running into the bureaucracy, the red tape and the tax code, the part the tax code that makes this very hard to make a profitable business. So if if you if imagine there was no government, I would open up the shop, and my cost would be my cost for the feed out and requirements, and then my ongoing and cost of staff and stocks and IT be very easy to make a profit with a coffee shop. I have my business rates which I pay ahead.

I've having the business have much in quite new complicated um employment laws which I have to a plan for which includes uh a high minimum wage now and um uh a holiday pay for everybody and then we obviously we have the very other taxes and regulations we have to follow. And I look at all the empty shops in our towns and Thomas and I think how many of those could be businesses? How many new business could be launched if the government just didn't get in the way of everything.

So that's my starting point of you. Oh, that I mean, you're not gonna that surprise to learn that I I largely disagree with that. I've spent my career building businesses from the ground up. That's always what i've done. And I think the labor front bench has either no experience in the private sector, suddenly not in the past ten or fifty years, or very, very little.

I, T, I literally at to this out, you're gonna. ve. This going from the tweet will be about week ago, where I talk about the labor front bench a bit.

You know, let's be honest that the conservative from bench over the last fourteen years have not had nearly enough business experience at all and certainly not the sort of venture capital back start up, go from nothing and really have the pressure to take something into the skies. And that's what what i've been doing and and you can see how difficult IT is to innovates, especially in this country compared to the united states.

So you know getting out of the ways the best thing you can do because with regulations, there are always unintended consequences. And um the thing is that the government doesn't measure the effectiveness of regulations. They they put the regulation out.

They pat themselves in the back and say we've done a really good job but getting this regulation out and they assume its its works and and that's great, but a lot of the time IT hasn't. And you've got to remain outcome focused, not output focus. And the regulations are output, not outcome.

Well, a lot of people that i've tried to discuss these ideas with, i've talked about tax being high tax. Tax are here. IT is. So I just bear in mind, I did ask ChatGPT, but if anyone on labor's s front bench has ever created a run, a successful businesses, not a single once A K drama was a barash yeah engineer care work. And Rachel ve, an economy of english should be safe for one month.

Can we say that David lame was a barston, was treating work for the national union students, and minibar was a journal? So basic, their lawyers, journalists, trade units of charity workers all have their place in society. But how can you be at the coal face, making decisions that affect millions of people nationwide, small, medium businesses, if you do not understand how to run bit this yourself.

how you so much yeah so yeah but anyway.

back to my other point is when you trying to discuss more liberal and I is just smaller government, less tax. Usually comes back with, oh, it's that's just rich people want to have more money and i'm trying to get across them know the policies that you think these kind of more socialist policies that you think are good for society actually harm the people you want to help the most yeah I mean.

racheal reves is figuring that out right now with the of the rise and employee a national insurance race and a whole load of a like a hair dressing salons, for example, that one of the spokespeople from that came onto sky news and was was saying, we are we we're totally stumped here and I I bet you racial reves, apparently they responded to a council, but I bet unit reader's never really took into account the effect that might have a no more.

And others, there are always these these consequences and they just simply they don't know what that could be. And I really I mean, in the book of recent, obviously, that you need to merge national insurance into income tax because otherwise is simply a stealth tax, is a way of money, the waters about what people are really paying. But certainly, IT IT talks about employee's national insurance staying, but referring IT to IT as a payroll tax.

You could call that a jobs tax as well. Let's be honest about what this is. Yes, you might say you want you want to have the tax in order to pay for for government expenditure, but let's be honest about what this is.

And at elections, governments are sorry. Parties can say, let's increase the jobs tax and see who who goes for that. Well.

look, I as i'm interested, deep book here yesterday and you know he sounded the alarm of the future uh uh currency crisis were having for and I yeah with the podcast i've made up in acutely aware of what's coming. Uh, we have statement growth. We have rising taxation.

Um I think taxes percent of GDP up to like forty percent now we've got massive increase in borrowing and I yeah I think is very clear unless we have a complete rethink of government, we are heading to a place where IT will be more more tax, more borrower and we will have a currency collapse yeah I put a very naive question to Steve yesterday, which I said to him. I said, look, if I was the leader of the conservative party right now and I was fully aware of what was happening, what we were facing, I will going to see case toma or sit down with them, say, k, this is, this is the reality. This is the future projections of growth.

This is the future projections on A, A, the cost government. And this, this is a runaway train. Uh, I would work with you in support with you a complete rethink of government, government expenditure.

So we bring IT down so we we we can drive growth and we can yeah reduce dead burden. And I won't chAllenge you on IT and let's work together because if we don't this is on all of us, why don't we work together? It's totally nave question.

But what does Steve Baker say?

I can't actually remember exactly what I want to quote him wrong.

but imagine he said I star would be .

interested, I think he basis said. But the problem is is most of them don't understand this, which is scary prospect. And the reality is most people just want power.

And we've got to this point where the economic cycle is out of sink with the political cycle. yes. And rather than dealing with the issue now, you can you can defer IT to the next government, and they can convert to the next government. And IT constantly gets kicked down the road. In the meantime, we are getting poos a nation and society is featured.

yeah. So the governments don't feel the pain in the short term when they borrow more IT. It's a long term problems, he said.

That ends up being the next, the next government's problem. And the more that we borrow, the less we actually have to spend on everyday, everyday people's priorities. And so IT does become this spiral and spiral. But for each individual governments, they can't see things really getting worse.

They're just trying to find the the next political headline for the for the next budget, for example, which says, you know we've given free x or free y to to this set of people and they think they are going to get a bounce from that. But I mean, one thing that I think that we learn from the last fourteen years of conservative government, and there were a lot of political games played, is that all of these political games and and the headline chasing IT doesn't work. IT might work in the short term.

Bits and pieces. You might see a little bump in your in your polis in the short term on and then politicians think, fantastic. We know this was a good thing to have done, but in the long term, uh, everyone sees through the political games, they see the pattern and they they get more and more disenchanted with with politics and politicians.

I think this is why most of the U. K. Not really understood the trump phenomenon.

A I, I mean, I go to amErica ten times year. I spent time in republican cities. In democrat cities, they're very different.

I chat a lot of people who vote for trump or have voted for trump um and then i've come back and i've watched this election and not I was pretty sure he was going to win. I didn't realize that convincing, but I pretty sure it's going to win. And I think I knew why i've watched all the commentary online, whether it's rory steer or Alice cample.

Lot of lories do IT right?

yes. Yeah, I mean, he just, I was surprised he missed that. I was so convinced. Yeah, I was surprised you missed that.

And also a lot of the commentary where carvable and anyone do you know, just all these different politicians, commentators, they completely missed that, and they have missed why. And they've tried to make IT about a personality contest or a dislike trump, but they have missed that. I think this is a fit in a tweet.

This one I said, basically, I think people have fed up with this shit. I populism works when people are begin let down. And this is where we're at. And I feel like the U. K. Is heading a similar direction where people, you know, the thing of over, say, about the labor parties, I think they're got the vote because they're like what they cannot be worse in this conservative party and now they're realizing all we care.

They didn't really get the most. They got thirty four percent in the pool switch is the lowest uh winning party election since for a very long time I actually had know when the last time the winning party got such four and but but this .

is another signals. The two signals are are that that people didn't want to vote for conservatives .

and they did not because .

they were so fed up with the last four teen years I I think especially the post covered era yeah and and then all people just didn't want na vote at all. This isn't care. So you've got, you got people who thought you could not get worse because isn't never realized that will yeah and the other people .

just think was the fucking point yeah if I may make a small comment about the american and situated american election really as as you know trump trump one um he had a specific message. All of that went well don't want to degrave what's s going on with with trumps win. But for me, a lot of IT, Frankly, about the state of the democratic party in the united states, which the very democratic.

There were two big things that people really disliked. Ts, about what they are doing, in my view. Uh, I was actually out in amErica a few weeks ago um in in pensylvania places so that was yeah that was that was the the the presidential motor cae actually went past the window of the cafe which we were in which .

cool yeah um and but there's three and two the two of the cars have fake trump son yes.

I didn't know that. Yes, very cool.

But i've got a photo I show you after this. I took a photo and I think I got the one with trust. You just get this outline of his face but you're like this .

definitely him yeah has to be here not one of the fates yeah but but just on the there are two things but I think really annoyed people about them. One was the way that um they were talking about priorities uh whether they be around trans, right so that sort of thing, diversity and inclusion that was not going to affect Normal people's daily lives.

And I feel like that is something where if they want to say they are going, they there for the man or woman in the streets that they need to get back to really understanding them, listening to them. That was something when Hillary clinton lost in twenty sixteen. I assume they would do.

They would go back in on themselves and really think about how this could have happened. But IT didn't look like they were. They were gonna that at all. Instead, they went on the attack for anyone who voted for tram, or anyone who who who thinks even slightly differently to them, and that I was really annoying for a lot of people. And I think the other big thing is the way that, you know, try, lets be honest, trump has been going out there making all sorts of uh outrageous claims and things which just simply aren't true um but the and the democrats call him out for IT rightly but they also do things that out of IT feels a bit sartiges feels a bit behind people's backs in terms of the way they lie. I mean the laces one I heard was the one about less chai saying that Donald trump had said, lets you know someone something he never said anything like that and anyone who looks looks at that clip will lose trust at the clip of what Donald trump he said.

He said, if you want to send people to work, you should join the go to fight yourself yeah I mean.

he said he basically was saying, I I wonder if this china would be so pro if SHE had to face a gun being pointed at her.

which is the first that.

you know, that is not the same thing as someone, someone to shoot this chaise. And there have been too many of those sort of full outrage moments that mean that people really feel that the the democrats are not the the place to be. And then you know what they were doing, saying it's outrageous.

Anyone who a joe biden's cognitive and health abilities and then IT turned out, really he wasn't fit to run for Price again. And I IT was this gas lighting going on. So trumps is not great, but these people, come on, you need to change .

your attitude is love IT. She's a radical warwick. Let's put her with a rifle standing. There with nine barrow shoot in at her, okay, the former president said at a campaign event, let's see how he feels about IT, you know, when the guns are trained on her face.

Uh, he also has a insoles, uh, called a very dumb, stupid person the more I mean, that's what he does but but he's not said cheta, no, he hasn't. But this is the point. This is what I don't understand about the the democrat is lots I don't understand about them but you bye Cindy got IT right.

He knew the far left were always going to vote from, and some people gonna public, whatever he said. There's no point fighting for them. There's no point peelings them with crazy left erling our ideas, because gonna vote for me. Anyway, he went for the center ground.

And I think what trump has done these come for the center ground because I think the left has gone so fucking crazy with some of the crazy policies that there's people who are kind of like you, you told you about birds. You are our case. You know, these are people, even rogan, rogan, rogan was pretty much openly a democrat.

He like berny, I said, bernies a coming. But they've, I think theyve got this point, fed up at the shit. This is, this is all crazy.

Like we need to get back to reality. And I think what trump did, he basic for some people he was like, I can't go for the dm of others. I like bucket. Why not? Yeah.

let's let's see it's device.

signal, verse, virtue. Y, yeah.

you got, you got two options, which one you go for and and they they chose to go, they chose to go for tram.

Quite significantly as well. But I feel like we head into a similar situation in the U. K. I feel like there is A A huge disconnect between the the political parties and the electorate, and there's a disconnect between the media and the electricity.

And is this thing where I feel like this kind of like that, some very angry working class people and they look down upon, oh yeah and you know, condescending attitude of they're working class people. But when you had the self port rise, what was really interesting, you had working class people next to middle class people, next to wealthy people, all upset with government. And we now seeing the tax on the farmers.

So I just think I fill in the U. K. We are, we are fracturing, and that's what I think your book is great. And i'm going to read the whole thing now because it's very rational about the things that need solving.

By the way, have you ever heard of the dinner party theory of history? You ever come across that tell basically that the things that events happen in history based on how people are viewed at the dinner parties they go to.

So, you know, a lot of people are not are going to care what the world, that the people in power not going to care, what working class people think they might care when they go to a dinner party in north london, what the other people around the table might think. And so there's a view that throughout history, it's actually about your own social class, the the elites and what they think and how you are viewed by them, which is how decisions get made. I don't know what to make of that. I feel like it's a little bit pie in the sky, but I I think it's an .

interesting one. I I think was I think we I think we're seeing a rejection of of collectivism basically at the moment of I think a lot things are failed. And I just like very obvious, I mean, I traveled a lot, told you have been out twelve salvor uh bucket. I as a strong leader, he's got higher gherst appropriate in any president in the world really .

yeah in the matter. I an I don't know the details, but that looks like he's brought crime down and things are starting to so basically .

he wanted to end corruption because this is very good. This is a problem with small third world countries corruptions really easy um of the four president before him, I think two were in jail for corruption. One was hiding in a where anything another one was dead and he said he wanted to in corruption he doesn't care about left eric politics.

He cares about policy and he came in. He basically a strong political leader and he recognize that you have a strong economy and safety. And so I mean, was IT was quite a policy, but basically almost anyone would tattoo of putting jail, but had the, I mean, at one point he was the model of the world's overall.

And they had these school resigns, which were run by the gangs. Just give you an idea. So I went out, visit a missioner's. And what they did was tah addicts off the street, and a lot of people addicted to, like glue sniff and alcohol, and they would rehab, IT them, get them back into society. And I will never forget this conversation.

We sit down and I was like, just explain to me the gangs, like how much of a problem of is IT and they said, if again, later came to your house and said, we want you talk of your daughter, she's going to come and be with me. And if you don't allow how i'm gonna going to kill you all, they would kill you. They would just kill the whole family.

Yeah and so you have families who would live and escape up into america, uh, to all, they're have to give their daughter away. They they had such a control over these red zones that IT was just a completely dangerous country. He rested everyone for the mall in jail. It's now, I think he's got the lowest murder rate in the west. 那么 帅？

No way. yeah. So yeah, you check that up.

I think he has that's so incredible .

and then .

he's trying to make IT a place to visit.

So I can't help feeling to achieve something like that though he must have been incredibly past the rule of the Normal rule of law and the court system. And outside of stuff, IT must have not been totally about port, 那一个。

approximate two point four size， by hundred thousand inhabitants. So twenty, twenty three, those are problem. When I stood at one hundred three, the murder rate has been dropped annually.

There must be a chart for this. I mean, IT could not show more about the calm. So like in twenty twenty is twenty, twenty seven, seven, twenty six, seven point nine now two point four? Well.

well, it's it's, it's done. He's done absolute.

I've been there five times, right, and always felt safe. So that's one component. And yes, he was very thora.

I mean, he basically went into parliament with armed guards. And I think he removed the judges. I think the judges were corrupt. So he did a very beneficent authoritarian, an uh, he had a very benevolent authority approach. He skirted around the constitution.

which is single term. Okay, he's not his second term .

as a second term. And but he was a way in the high, interviewed him. And I was like, I think I said to her, I said I don't think you can do this project of five years. And the way he's done IT, I think he stepped down six months to go.

which meant he could run again. I did basically.

and I think he will do again. And I think the country is a weird one. I kind of support him breaking the constitution because I see the output. But I obviously, I think he needs to put a plane long term. How how you know how he will pass power on othe .

wise he might end up being the corrupt pollution that his source.

I don't I don't see him going corrupt. There was a recent thing case .

cause it's corrupt in my view, if you end up staying for too long for your own game rather than for the health country yeah I think the question .

is how is he going to build strong institutions yeah that protect outside or being taken over by financially correct politicians and judges in the future? That's that's a chAllenge. But yet so the other things he's done is boost to the economy is made a place of problems up.

They have the national uh the international surf championships said they had missed there. Um you know he's engaging with other leaders. He's basically almost told the M, F, the world bank to go fuck themselves and a doctor bitcoin find their bitcoin treasury this is wild.

right? Because I didn't know that bitcoin had been .

taken on biosolids so the first country in the world to make IT legal tender yeah, my friend jack males was help them write the the bitcoin A A law. Oh well, yeah. I was there the same time. So jack, enough to do is and has IT worked .

out because I have been following IT I about IT.

So they have been by in one point you change the policy and going to buy back in day uh this you cannot yeah bitcoin treasury is go down the economy um that up up that one click on that see see what we get there yes so this is there. I mean, so so that's the value in dollars. What was IT say the men come I can see that's about yeah that for .

five five thousand six hundred yes.

that's four hundred million ish because we had a big jump with the election and that means where was that much he toy for this actually go back go back a page um with your search going to add mental at the end so M M P O O L I think yeah that first so that their address IT looks like a ladder because they like they buy one big coin a day. So we've got four hundred and fifty thousand, four and fifty million in becomin.

But but there is a highly profitable trade we've been making because bitcoin out seventy for six thousand dollars. So everything they've brought up until now in profit and that that's a treasury that protects the country, a massive mt investment. Look, they've got a relationship with china. I'm not sure about we've to wait and see, but it's the kind of leadership that people have been asking for in a country like that. And then you have malayan argentina yeah .

that's a different is .

not a liberty. And and and so whether or not we agree or think they're rise or wrong, I think this that people are Carrying out for a different politics. And I think my feeling is that they crying for that here in the U.

K. As well. I think within a one hundred twenty days of labor, think people pretty fed up.

And I SAT that with what I know thinking. I don't see I don't see the conservatives having reformed enough to change the trajectory of debt. And I I can see reform gaining ground.

I don't know if they fully understand the requirements ts to run government. So that's where thing the books are interesting. Yeah, everything I read them is like rational, correct. But how do you how does that ever happen?

Well, I brought this book to. Number ten, O K, I back in April um a much, much April time to rest, to rush this stuff. I I knew some people who work there and so I use the context to see whether they and there was real interest in IT.

Obviously, things move very quickly towards an election. So IT wasit wasn't looked into in any 技巧， but they like the direction of travel in the way. The way that the book has been written is it's about low hanging fruit.

You know, i've not gone in there and said we should do all of these controversial drastic things. It's about where can we find consensus, whether you're on the left or on the rise. okay.

Um and so the chapter on tax, for example, IT does advocate tes in a general way for lower taxes, but the individual suggestions are not actually suggest saying that you need to lower taxes in order for this to have an effect. It's efficiency, right? So yeah exactly.

So if you are simplifying the tax code, what the main point of that tax uh that tax chapter is if you simplify the tax code, you are going to be in a much Better position because that means that people spend less time on IT theyll, be less stressed about IT. Even if you have high tax, that's gonna fine. And what's more, it's a lot more democratic.

So these things you if your labor and you're thinking, I don't want to reduce taxes, the hope is that when you read this book, you see you don't have to lower taxes in order to have a much more fish on tax system. So that's that's why I think these sorts of things can be can be brought in in in the health chapter is another example i've talked about um how the litigation how the litigation uh system should be should be uh reformed. And a lot of what I have written has been based on the health and social care community from from the house of commons, which at the time was shared by a very centrist politician in jeremy hunt um and these things are absolutely obvious.

IT wouldn't cost a lot to reform the litigation system, but IT could be revolutionary for for the health care system. And the reason for that is that the way the litigation system is currently set up is that it's about escape goes. It's about finding the individual, a doctor or nurse or whatever practitioner and saying it's that person's falls and the the IT is in the interests of the hospital trust to do that because IT means the hospital trust doesn't need to reflect themselves.

And so what you end up with is, first, really no systemic change. You've got to prove this to a high degree. So IT stays in the courts for years, which makes doctor's life's hell.

IT makes the victim's life's hell as well, and IT makes doctors incredibly scared。 And if you look at the if you look at the results from doctors in terms of um how scared they are, in terms of provide as suggesting suggesting that a treatment which might not be the absolute bog standard one, it's very, very high. The surveys are shown that very, very high, which means that everyone is potentially getting the wrong advice because this is the most risk of us advice.

And so IT doesn't cost money to the N H. S. To change that.

You're just changing the decision making process of doctors, meaning people will get Better a outcome. So that's an easy thing to do. You could be labor, you could be conservative, you could be reform. You can do that sort of stuff. That is how the entire book has .

been recent when I was making my nose, I in this I came in what efficiencies I had a education business and H S. Jobs city design um in his glare and the obviously I think he comes to the point, right i'm trying one of things i'm trying to say to people, we don't have a party problem. We have a government problem.

We've this this government beast is is grown and grown organically to suck up all the uh life out the productive parts of society. And I look at IT now, I I think I see IT quite clearly, Thomas. So I look at IT now.

I, yes, I saw cmi elected, not not got particularly strong opinion on of her. And I thought, what's gna happen now? This is what I think i'll have over the next four years.

We have four budgets, which will either see more taxation or more boring. I don't see a scenario where there's a reduction a reduction in taxation and like a that reduction. And so if that's what we're facing, we'll ll have another election in five years. And a the conservatives will fight a good battle. And either labor have done such a bad drop, there be single term party or they get reelected for more the same if the conservatives, when they'll come in and I think they'll make maybe some tax cuts .

change and think the trade .

and I think reform will get more of the way. I think tractor wise, uh like the Baker told me yesterday, we are we have an issue with our uh uh uh with our death system without sorry, amounted debt. And we uh we are not driving growth and productivity and and therefore if we have stagnate him but an increasing debt burden, we're going end up like the U.

S. With you. I mean, what said thirty six, thirty nine? Now we're two point two. The problems is going to continue and we're going to end up with a button crisis. And I see IT pretty clearly unlike how do you get sixty million involved voters are fifty million voters. To really understand this, you can. Have you have an educated public who really understand how the bond market works, understand debt and deficit, understand inflation and interest rates when they understand that yeah when uh uh labor make particular policies or conservatives make particular policies, what the real impact on them is how do how do have fifty million people understand that?

I I didn't think that you I didn't think you you can I you know I I do a lot of door knocking for the conservatives um I can't imagine myself uh going you know door to do and saying will think about the bond markets here's how IT works, you know um I don't .

think that .

I think you make the you can make simpler arguments. yes. Like did you know that we are spending more, uh, repaying wealthy investors than we do on our schools?

Yes, in our hospitals, we have to stop doing that. We have to get out of that so that we can actually, I want to spend double the amount of schools and hospitals. We can do that once we release us from the ourselves, from the chains of these debts. People understand that.

They do understand that, which is I mean that David Cameron, David Cameron did IT in twenty ten, right? He did talk about how we've gone way beyond our means and now we're having to pay back debts and we have to bring that back, the cut, the deficit in order to to get to a Better place. So people do they can get that they really can if you, if you push the messes hard enough.

The problem with, well, honestly, in the end, everyone gets tired of of a bad message, right? And David Cameron rotten has also that one of his biggest regrets was not cutting further faster because he said, we were going to get completely hammed for anyway. We should have just done IT done more.

Ireland had done, and then we would have, what did they cut hot? They caught massively hot as soon as IT happened to them. They had a deep recession, but then they came out of IT and had much faster growth right then.

The united kingdom did at the same time. Where's um the U. K. Government at that time? They were very, very careful about what they what they cut, and they said they would get the deficit White away within five years, but they didn't.

How much did they cut into IT?

They cut a lot into IT. Yeah, think they got IT down by something like two thirds. And but they did not get IT down to where are easy to be.

And then the problem is that events happen, and such a breaks IT happened, covered, happens. Money was needed for IT, for other things. People have got tired .

of austerity. Y even, even that they got the deposit down. By two years. We still a deficit.

exactly what is still running a deficit.

Where do we not have a surplus of thirty years ago?

IT was understanding major, I think SHE interesting .

when I keeping out the did you hear the interview on major? Did with the the guy is the leading podcast.

No, I didn't worth .

listening to. I, I didn't. I was too Young to fully appreciate john major. I just saw the spit in image. Character has been boring, actually is a fascinating guy.

I don't realize he came from a working class background, brighton, but he became conservative, which you always find that quite interested. But he said, he said, the problem of politics now is they used to get, i'll get this slightly wrong. He said, you need a strong labour and a strong conservative to be against each other.

But the labour politicians used to come from the unions, you know, this kind of the working class, and the conservatives used to come from business or the military, and they used to come with experience to be strong, powerful leaders. He said. What we have now is career politicians and student politicians.

And they no real world experience. They end up have an influence in government, but they don't. They essentially unqualified for the job.

Oh, a hundred percent rise. I mean, I don't think that saw biggest problem overall, but it's just one of is just one of many problems. And you know working in P. R, for a, for a large CoOperation, thinking of David Cameron with that one IT does not mean that you understand how the private sector works, does not mean that you understand how to build build a business, certainly not from the ground up. Uh, and that is something that people really do not the politicians really do not get you um .

what was your backgrounds? You say business with your councillor. What's the .

trajectory that happened? Well, I mean, I am IT in business at the moments so but i'm doing the council work in my spare time basically and it's not easy to find that right, define that time. But due to the the the wonder of modern technology and and teams and I have flexible working hours, i'm able to do that.

Um but I have spent my entire career building businesses from the ground up. I left university having studied social policy with quite a few very left wing politicians. And by the way, in terms of whether someone who goes to kia starmen, the leader of the tories, who goes to the key starmen, say we should read everything, my, my professional university was saying, well, japan's got a um adapt to G D P H O two hundred fifty cent getting fine.

We've got a, we've got a long ways ago. It's gonna absolutely fine. This is a professor. Oh yeah, yeah. These were my professors .

at university. I mean, they had what, three decades .

of stack. It's not it's not being great .

for them all. No, they have been .

bailed out is IT twice this year.

the currency to slight change on their into like interest rates with their bond raised .

like they let him get totally out control the japan. And and so if you if you actually yeah what people on the left really thinking, they believe that this is uh you know conservative, rightwing, free market nonsense. The fact that we we have to stop borrowing, they think that we can continue borrowing way beyond the one hundred percent mark and and that that is why you would never get through.

I don't believe that you would get through to hear stomach and say, you know, this is, this is gna work. But anyway, that's where I start. I was a university and I that's what I did social policy.

And IT was a great time. I flew to, I flow to find for my dissertation on, on, on finance education system, which is world renown. So I learned a lot through that.

And then I went into into the business world. And I knew I couldn't be a small car in a big machine. I couldn't face IT.

That wasn't what I want to see. And I empathy .

I exactly. So I I immediately thought, but I was highly ambitious. So right start out world, that's where I want to go in to.

And I immediately went into a start up, which um ultimately it's done well for itself is not done hugely well. But it's startups often fail, right? This one didn't fail.

IT succeeded. Um IT sold last year for a good amount money to a senior player in their industry. And you know I Carried on after that, I set up network of business experts with with a cofounder and we we built that for quite some time.

We did actually run out of money, but we only had three hundred k of funding overall with that money. We did pretty well to get foot y one hundred companies as our clients, you know. And and then then there was the crp to there was the neo bank that I mentioned before that that was very, very interesting journey.

And then I moved onto the the place where I am now, which is about wealth management. And that company started zero pounds of assets under management in march twenty twenty. And and the markets were going through the floor and the found that was thinking, ww, this is not a brilliant time to have start to this business, but here we are all of this time later and it's the amount of assets has gone beyond six billion pounds.

And you know it's looking to do incredibly well into the future as well. It's it's looking to become one of the largest in the U. K. In in its area.

So um you know it's A I have been through this many times in my in my career and i've seen what works and i've worked for lots of different. I've also worked for large organised. I worked for Chelsea football club and support. I'm not I eventually a liverpool Frank is my mom comes .

in liverpool version. The second .

thing and I was of its awkward in the interview with Chelsea, they let me in any way and I work for bdo, which is the logic ting firm as well. Yes, i've seen IT with i've seen what business means for large, for small, for growing, what whatever have you. And um i've been doing the councillor work on the side because I find IT to be incredibly impact for I did I I I shared a sub committee on homelessness embarking um show recently and the the suggestions that the commit the sub committee made were taken on board.

And you know that means that potentially hundreds of people across bg, maybe thousands over time and their lives can be Better based on what we what we talked about and by the way, the main suggestions that I put out for homelessness, where we need to start measuring our success and we need to start using technology, I actually talked about using a crm system that can be used by multiple different organizations. And and they they know for an individual person who's vulnerable to homelessness, they can see where in that fun, all of homelessness, how close are they to being on the streets. And so they know when they using data, they will know when they need to intervene.

And we're not to intervene. They can measure that success using kp. This is a very business speak that was of a bit weird, right? But I was in .

the people in the park you talk about thinking about government like a system .

is engineer .

because the is to me, government is just A I don't know, I turned out how to explain IT, but it's IT doesn't appear to run like I would run a company. Not at all. My if I show you my laptop, if you opened up my laptop, my brothers, there's about ten spatch es that permanent exists.

And there all the metrics I need to know about the health of each of my businesses, cash flow, income, a pio and and with all those things, at any point I got snatched on my business, I know yeah what doing. And and we try things, we test things, we measure them, see what works and does that improve the business. But IT feels to me, government wants slightly different.

very different.

IT feels like it's IT doesn't understand what it's trying to do. It's throwing money at at problems and then it's only picking the results. IT needs to win uh, uh, uh, uh public opinion rather than actually reporting what's really happened in the impact. And I mean, if he's do economics, think this economy scale is too big and IT becomes inefficient, I just think it's a big bucking, efficient mess.

Yeah, IT is.

But everyone recognizes that now.

H I don't know whether people are recognizing IT. I mean, I am not convinced that people are ready for a libertarian .

future that in that way they .

they might not do. But I I don't think that britain is in a similar place to argentina with yes.

but I don't think you need to sell IT as a liberi, don't least a bit like you said about knocking on doors and saying to people you understanding debt rather than talking about the bond market. I think it's the same. I think you can you can talk him, say, oh, you realize that you know GDP the stuff we make in the productivity of this country.

You over fifty percent is going going has been taken away in tax. Would do you think that would be Better to have a smaller government, but less tax? Because I think these are things that can build everyone. I think if you had a labor voter, a conservative voter, a reform vote, he said, all of them, these are my, these are my main political goals is to increase safety and security, build a stronger economy and reduce taxes. Who will have more money?

Who would discover that? But it's no where there is simples that I mean two examples that that come to mind immediately. One is if you were to be using a government spending drastically, you would need to you would need to do a lot more decisions like cutting the winter fuel allowance and see the the reaction to that one.

Another one is the pacy tax and the bedroom tax. These one actual taxes, the the paste tax was A V A T change, right? Wasn't specifically lets go out and tax paste. But that is the way that was perceived. And so it's not easy, I agree to.

but I found a way to become so big, efficient. You need to find a way to unwind itself.

Very hard to do that. Yeah, it's very, very hard to do that in somewhere like argentina. They were so desperate, they were so AR IT was so clear that I had failed for such a long time and inflation was so unbelievably high that they really got to a place where they felt that IT can't gets any more difficult in the united kingdom. Uh, labor and conservatives, but certainly this this labor government in the previous one very, very good at at managed decline managing is not doing what happens in argentina, which was just letting IT fly. And he said, but we wouldn't be able because you wouldn't you want it's gonna take a long time for us to get anywhere close to what happened in argentina.

But but as thought experiment, if if mile came over and said, i'll write your policies for you, I think you would find a way. I think the first thing he would go for is probably the N. H.

S. Not not complete to scrap the N. H. S. I was just in australia and and they've got a very interesting model whereby uh if you are over a certain amount of money, uh you are incentivize a private health care. If not, you face a taxation which is slightly high than the private alth care is not perfect but you have that competing uh private and public uh health services and and that kind of ages people away from reliance on the state and private health usually always is Better than the public system.

It's a very, very difficult thing to message to send through though because section if v the the debate about health care is, is that going to be free for all or are you going to, uh, make people pay for IT and then people who can't afford health care don't get IT and they die but he isn't free.

All is IT. But how how election is not free for us all of its about ten percent of all yeah that's no one twelve percent of business .

or fifty percent. That's right. But he does make sure that the the poorest are able to pay. Or at the start of my health care chapter, I put A, I put an example of how there was this one boy who was totally unable to a, his future look very, very bad. And there was this one, unbelievably expensive medicine, one point seven, nine, five million pounds.

This thing costs well and nice, didn't approve.

And the N. H. Chess bought IT for I did okay. And he he his life is looking Better, great. And his mother, there's a point in the book from his mother who says, you know, this is, this is game changing. That is the power of the nhs. That's what I can really do where you know when IT comes to our bodies, it's not like it's not like A A latte from starbucks where if you choose not to have the late but go go for something cheap or just not go to start bux is fine. You don't have to we don't have a choice about which illness we end up getting with its but I I .

don't think we should get rid of the nh at my point as I just think he could become more fishing run Better they can be and we there are I when I had my advertizing agency down in london, we set up a private health care system for all the employees. And IT wasn't too expensive. IT was a nice kind of benefit.

And then when I close the agency down, I decided to keep her. And at the time, for me, my son and my daughter IT was about a hundred eighty pounds a month. So it's not a huge amount t and I know not everyone can afford IT, but in that time, we've had that.

My son had a short lines issues, issue. He was seen by one the best consultants in london. Almost immediately, I had a herding to discard my pack within three days, as in surgery, in a private hospital with my own room looked after really well.

And I went to be, I went from being unable to sit down to be able to walk again. You know, that happened quickly and efficiently as well. Done because IT was a part of the private system.

I think there's a lot of people out there can easily, if you can afford sky sports, you can for private health care. I would say haven't had had both private health care should be priority me, much bigger priority, the sky y supports. And so I just think we could edge more people into the privacy system, take the pressure of chess.

I think we could do other things like like an island you have to pay for your doctor's fifty pound, you have to wait for IT. I I don't know if they have a safety net for people you want to work in, but again, that way, I mean, I was in somebody twelve million appointments a year or not people to go to, they just I did my thing about the n is like every election is like we're going to give another twenty billion to the N H S. And you look how much well is going to the N H S. But why times have gone up, I will comes to produced.

So it's not working but is in health care. I do think we're looking in the wrong place. okay? It's everyone is is talking about the nhs, whether it's got the right structure or the wrong structure, how IT should need reform and things like that.

Do you know what the I think is the lowest in in the O E C D in the western, what you might call the western world, even though it's not in the west at all, the lowest, the country that pays the least on their health care in the western worlds as a percentage of their GDP. Do you know what this is, please? It's no, no, it's not us.

It's not us. It's I can tell you, is japan okay? And you know which has some of the highly.

but japan, sorry, just on japan, is IT lowest because I have a very good liston. Well, very good. Well.

this is this is exactly what i'm saying in in the chapter on health care. Yeah, which is that we're looking in the wrong place. Japan has a very similar socialized medicine system that we do in the U.

K. Really, really similar. Now IT turns out that in terms of a the the cost they pay for the amount of beds and in the hospitals as a much more efficient than us.

So IT shows that there are absolutely efficiencies that can be made in the in the N. H. S.

For sure. But the bigger thing is the lifestyle that we have. Yeah and the obesity .

absa in jack is very.

very low. It's very, very low. I not been to jack.

You don't really see fat people. Everyone is skinny.

And you know this comes there are so many parts to this, but this comes back as well to the the chapter in the book on urban design. One of the reasons for that is that, uh, japanese people, they walk at something like double the number of steps on average. Then the the average british person works. See you looking the A.

B M I greater than thirty four point five percent overweight B M I twenty five to thirty twenty percent. You compare that to the U. K. cob.

Hopefully the A I overview is given us the right numbers, not a lucent.

But yes.

life style we ever said, but this is we have forced our cells into a bad life style with the way that we built our cities.

She's correct.

yeah. I mean.

five hundred more .

is totally different when you force people to have a car to get anywhere when you do this zoning, which means that you have residential areas where shops and officers are not allowed to be, so everyone has get in their car, whatever they need to do to get to the get to their office.

It's not going to it's not going to lead to people doing the right number of steps, the right amount of exercise each day, whether if you if you create these walkable pedestrian first um cities um and you have what's refer to his gentle density. So it's not sort of two to one story bangalore or two stories you're talking about three to five stories terrorist housing. And you have some which is office buildings.

You got shops, you've got town square where people can congregate. That means you have enough football on your on your high streets. That means people can walk to to work and IT means the public, uh public transport can get where IT needs to go more easily.

And you there's much less need for cars that and when you have less need for cars and when you design the streets, especially with the curvature, which means that you can't see the visitor IT means that car drives slower and the slower that the cars drive, the more workable the places are. And and it's things like that. You know we we think of our our streets and the square around us as just these things, which are there is not a political issue at all.

It's not true. These things are absolutely key to our health and happiness. And that's not major saying that, by the way, there's been a massive study by the university of warring, which which has been able to correlates to be fair, not caught, caught but correct, is a strong correlation between where people are live and then living in beautiful, livable, workable places and their happiness, which is incredible.

And they took into account the socio economic effects of the other things in people's lives. And IT shows you just how important this stuff is, a design that can help us with health care unbelievably and things like um exercise. You know the japanese they have something called raggy.

I think it's called radio tii, i've almost certainly but that that principle, but it's where it's like three three minutes a day. Everyone who's in an office building somewhere in in japan, they will get up and do this exercises, is on the radio. People do IT in offices.

People do IT in parks, people do in their own homes. And it's millions and millions of people do this every day. Now i'm not saying that that is culturally right for us, but what I am saying is that we can experiment our way to a living, more healthy lifestyles with more exercise, Better quality food. There was you don't .

think we should just get everyone as yp.

Yeah, that's that's .

cheap, right?

I test now I that that the hypothesis is if you give people uh, gym membership, they will they will go to the gym um i'm not convinced that's going to actually happen. But if you experiment with lots of these different ideas, you start to pick out the winners. And whether you mean the world's greatest innovations, who built the the co founder of netflix, said IT, actually.

But you, elon master, said IT. Others have said IT as well. They know.

And the quote from the code of netflix is that nobody knows what they're doing, nobody knows what they are doing and nobody can predict the future. And therefore, you've got to have humility when you're building. That is how netflix got big.

That is how spake sex has has done so much more than NASA over the past thirty years because they are expect they start with the hypothesis. They don't assume its right and they try and validate that hypothesis as fast as possible if we do that in the in the public sector as well. With live stars, I heard about restaurant menus.

Uh, there was an experiment done on that about changing what you put on the menu will change people's choices to be more healthy choices. There are all sorts of things that we could do. Sugar taxes is generally are more on the liberty side of things than the not liberty side of things.

Apparently.

world i've heard that .

was reformulated.

I honestly don't know the details of IT, but generally speaking, you know, everything is a baLance, ed, right? Sometimes the taxes is the right thing to do. Sometimes something else is the right thing to do.

I trying avoid taxes where possible, to be honest. Um but you we should be experimenting with the stuff and finding out what works. And we can find out very quickly what's works and start to scale those things quickly.

And that would be way Better in terms of our long term spending on health care. Then shoving a whole load of more money into the N. H.

S, which IT just gets eaten up immediately. And you never see any real benefit. Whether you look at japan, they spend way less, but the health outcomes are way Better. And that is that's what we should be going after you might be.

Have you spoken to planning departments?

Of course, I have on the councillor.

How's that good?

Well, they do their best, right? So it's not it's not easy being A A planning officer. There's all sorts of local plans and neighbors od plans and then there's the the national policy framework. So um I don't know where your question is going .

to now you know rethinking our towns and cities, that's a big job. So now I look through I .

look through .

some of the things that you've talked about. I think we think in the tax code could happen them quite quickly, efficiently. You could just rewrite the tax code um and just force that through.

But but to redesign real bill cities feels like something that takes years, maybe decades. And so this quick wings and then there's long term wins and even on those planning the cities. But what's the role of the planning department? What's the role of developers? Like how do how do we think about these things? I I mean, when where I live Better, there's a lot of uh, house building at the mind all around the end of the town to the point where the town sent to really come a code with the pressure in the traffic, you mean and how long they take you to take to school and back and it's crazy.

yeah crazy traffic.

But all these how all these houses that being being built around that they all look the same, all these little collection, the houses they I have a brick house and then I have like a kind like a Sandy yellow house and one they're trying to make the houses look different. But it's not it's not working. It's repeat.

And in the middle you're get you get A A little size breeze local or tesco's on a maybe a local cafe and they're all start to let to say it's quite miserable. Yeah, yeah, yeah it's quite miserable. So I don't yeah when I looked through your book, i'm like, win, win, win, win, win. Redesigning cities like that can take a long fuck in time.

I say that redesigning city, I think I think, yes, I know a our cities that the old cities and villages that we've got were built in this way. And is that an .

mechanic thing that rather than like being planned, is the problem, is actual planning for .

sure that part of the problem. Again, the book refers to equites our king, actually king Charles the third um he wrote about called harmony and he talks about in an area in the india called the I think is derv I think is what is called in mumbai and IT was it's a slum it's a slum yeah uh actually if if people want to uh look, find out more about IT James may talks about in our man in india uh and the people don't want to leave this place.

It's a slum that people don't want to leave. IT has been organic built and has small shops down the down its streets uh it's got lower crime then in some of the other places are around him in mumbai. It's got his own finance a sector and um it's got a very, very strong community.

Think about how our communities have been designated over the past seventy years as um open design has forced us apart. That's a sort of thing that can change. So so our original cities, which were organically built, they absolutely um can be easily restart, pose back to their original purpose. What the important thing is to get out the cars, get out the concept of zoning.

Um this is already happening in in paris uh this socialist mayor A N hideko, I think her name is and who has who's making the central paris be a no um a no car zone and we're going to see what a difference that can make when you pedestrian ze places, as is my view. But the other part is really easy as well. Every council has a design code that they can, that they can make.

You got neighbor od plan design codes. You got bucking for councils doing a design code. And if you set out the urban design principles in there, then you can make sure that all of these new houses that labor is planning to build over the next five years, these are going to be around for the next hundred, two hundred, three hundred years. Perhaps right now, we've got to get this rise. So i'm not saying that it's going to you can immediately change everything, but there's a lot that you can change in urban design at a very low cost.

But is not when you say not change everything that the thing was again, I go back to your book and yeah really part of the start IT was, you know, we have high anxiety rates with Young irl. Yeah have depression with Young boys. We have stagnating economy.

We have high, almost accepted corruption. People just accept corruption. Now we have high attacks. We have a crime. Seems to be, uh I think violent crime is down, but crime seems to be up. We have uh a cultural divine at the moment.

There is a uh uh certain uh aspects of of uh certain political parties of very much structure with the idea of immigration. Yeah does immigration look like? What should I look like? There's some escape go in with muslim communities.

I mean, I can give you this big lessons like everything appears to be a bit fuck like where you start. But I I go back to the point I said, I think people are sense in this. I think people are sense in this. I told friends and me they .

can sense that things aren't working. Is what labor said at the election, right? Britain's not working IT for us because the conservative haven't done IT.

They are all do this every time I like vote for change, things basic. Every government comes and said, didn't will x IT. And they.

Fifty six percent of employees are experiencing symptoms of depression. Female employees determined them more likely to experience symptoms depression. Sixty one cent of employees, sixteen to twenty four, experiencing sympson of depression.

I mean, this is employed people. We have a massive amount. We have a massive Young population or even working yeah because they got depression and it's just like everywhere I looked on as i'm like.

where do you start? There are so many parts which you're wrong but it's about um you know each part of the book can be done sim multi eusden but there's no silver bullets. You you've got to do all of these different things.

So urban design is isolated people rather than bringing them together. So you've got a deal with that problem but is not a sound bullets. Uh you've got um we we've never attempted to bring empathy into a our children to to everyone just assumes that there's nothing you can do about either either you have IT or you don't is not actually entirely true. There's a lot you can do to .

build empathy in .

people to g you. You well actually don't necessarily have to start Young, but obviously, if you do start Young, IT will be improved. But can you imagine if we did build empathy and our children, how much warmer our society would become in those statistics there?

People would have more support. So, you know, the lights of depression and that sort of thing would, would, would go down. I also think though, that there's very little to believe in anymore. You know, people have moved away from religion. And I can't say that i'm a particularly religious person myself but uh the the move towards uh existential nialls m is something that I think is causing people in credible, ancient and um lack a .

national identity.

I think a national on top of that and sort of connected to that is is part of this I want to believe in something bigger than myself, right? There's what everyone everyone's be part of that they want to believe. And part of that is national identity.

Part of IT is also religion. And the national identity part is fAiling because we are going through a period of managed decline, a long, long period of manage decline since the said the second war war. And we've got to change that if people are going to believe in this country, if they they are you going to believe in in the in in are actually having any relevance in in the future of the world.

And as as as a people doing something useful, you know, I think that is also in percent. And then you've got the other things like obesity, which is causing people's health to go through the floor. You've got social media, which is causing our children's health to go through the floor.

So none of these things are are silver bullets by themselves, but absolutely at a relatively low cost. You can start to tackle all of these areas together, which in a short space of time together can lead to a much, much healthier society. That might be, yeah.

look, i'm on the same pages as you. Part of not traveling anymore is like improved my own health. I get up and go for a walk in the mornings now.

right? Make a difference. Makes a difference sense. You, up for the day.

Good on the german. I have a sana. I'm trying to eat Better. I'm going gradually more connive. I'm trying i'm trying to not have food having has any ingredients in trying to get a single ingredient food and try, you know just generally have been thinking to get out of my iphone because it's is somebody said IT to me, if you ever seen aliens, alien is basically the alien. What he does is IT uh claims to the face of the the person and then I uh as like uh in impregnate them with a pregnant the world IT put the in in bus but this idea of the economics try from the the exit could examine forth ena move but comes to the face yeah like a parasite and I was wrote my body out in lb recently and he he basic said, this is what iphone .

are yes yeah and yeah they basically .

come to our things. They suck in our hold out. And I kind of obviously sounds dramatic, but I kind of like I think you might be right for sure yeah if every spare moment, if we're looking at phone then scrolling on twitter, what what do we actually doing?

Well, yeah, here that's basis said that's an iphone. Was he called face August? It's got a name.

I member, it's good. Yeah no, I know people sometimes asked me, how the hell did I manage to write this?

What i'm doing and what .

i've been doing, other things people would be amazed at what you can you can achieve if you don't use social media, if you don't watch T V, I don't have A T V at home and if you are really focused on on doing something. Um I this I geek out, I love this stuff. This is my watching A T V series.

You know, that's why I raise IT. And so I think that people's productivity could go through the roof if they realized how much they were doomed. Score ling, how many do you really think about that?

I visit done out myself and all of the .

listeners at home, how many, how many hours you do am strolling on twitter or instagram or snap chat or tiktok or whatever IT is.

He says my daily phone news, this is ten half hours, which is jo way I think .

someone .

might .

misleading .

because I yeah um so he would go. IT also helped to be fat of .

especially listeners home. He might have children. IT also really helped that I wrote nearly all of this book before I, before I, my my wife gave birth.

So my daily average on twitter, three thousand fifteen minutes.

three hours, fifty .

minutes.

and you could write, you could write if you stop using a twitter altogether, you could write a book .

in three months. I sketch a gbt. No, no. I mean, look, i'm become a congers of that. I think other people are I think i'd like to say I think it's like a waking up for people to realize like things aren't right at the moment.

Yeah and you add into that we've got this another big issue, the lower of, uh, sorry, the age and population we have, yeah, we got lower birthrates. You know, these are all issues point in in in a single direction. And IT feels like we need like, I don't want to be dramatic about them, but almost like a cultural revolutions, like a waking up moment.

They look, what are we building here as a country, where are we heading and what we want out of that. I always I do always come back to the economy though. I think you have to start with a strong economy, with a stronger economy. And you if people feel I don't even think it's feel I don't want, I think you have to have people avoid feeling gradually poor.

That's what everyone's feeling, sure. And is actually not that hard to do some basic things around the economy without even reducing taxes. What would you do? What is what, as I say, the tax simplification peace that that you've got in there is, is really important.

I go I sound a bit like a broken record, but I go back to urban design, where people don't realize is that twenty cent of united states GDP comes from walkable neighborhoods in its top thirty five metro areas. Twenty percent come from these tiny urban areas. And it's, if you think about the city of london, right, which is this one square mile, which which makes so much for our GDP.

If you think about silicon valley in the united states, which has a higher GDP, in finland, just that small area of the the united states, you start to see why arlington and in Virginia is another one which is which is a workable area. You start to see how IT can be that these small walkable areas, to be fair, silicon valleys often not so workable, but this is a very small area where there's this, a glooming center of of innovation, has come together. You know, those are the sorts of things that make a difference.

And you need the global centres, just to be clear. And in the book, I have suggested several glomeris centers, knowledge hubs you can knowledge clusters you can also call them uh which is sort of a everyone the world leading experts come together in one place. And you've got universities, you've got a private sector, um you've got a highly skilled workforce.

They all come together to to produce something more than the sum of their parts. That is how silicon valley has done the amazing thing is done. That is how the the square mile has done the amazing thing that is done.

You see the same thing in television and and other places like that, and that's what you need. I I suggested one about a Green tech around oxford because it's Scott, the foundations for that already. And I talk about in the northeast, you can have one around the defense industry as well.

And I talk about how if you create these tax incentives and you build these glomeris centers, especially the one in the northeast around defense, we spend so much on defense and this is so spent um what you're really missing there is the economies of scale that you need in order IT for the every pound that you spent to be spent well. And for the economies of scale that you need, you need the private sector. And you also need the companies, the ship builders, for example, to be building the sorts of vessels that the private sector want as well as the ones that the public sector, ones that the defense as sector once.

And that means compromise. That means not having necessarily the same same ships, uh, as you would otherwise go for IT might mean A A different way of thinking about that. And when I run this, the defense part, by the way, passed a manka mark kanzi, who's a senior adviser, the C S, I, S. He used to work for the White house under A A, bush and obama as a senior military adviser, specifically on procurement.

His point is that even the united states, a uh military and a large scale world war would be reduced to a regional powers uh force within nine months and the rest of the war would be fought using um equipment vehicles that have come from the private sector that can be produced at scale. We even saw that in iraq there was this accountant what that was cool now, but there was a special tank that that was built ah that was ended up being built at scale. And that's what they mostly used in iraq.

You see that in the second world war wasn't a big fire, that the one as the battle of britain, IT was the hrc. Anes that could be mass produced. You see in the tanks I company, but IT was called in as a special tank that the americans built.

That was nothing special, but IT could be mass produced. And so you need to get into this feeling when a glomeris center that can make a lot of money for us as a country by building up the economy in in the defense space, but also in shipbuilding space and that sort of stuff. But IT also saves us a huge matt of of money in defense. These are the winds that we can do is not about spending more money, is about spending IT way more efficiently and getting much more out of .

IT and just enabling the private sector.

Yes, exactly.

I mean, i'm not going to do. There was a period of time I was running for mayor and Better fort because I made a more on. I don't know why he's done the job.

He is a completely qualified. He has no experiences from a farming background. I think he just wants to wear the outfit, the cool outfit he does like lacks a basic understanding of business. Um but what I don't think I could do this as well.

But what I would do for my town, I going to befit like I say we've we've got empty shops um and the town centre is kind of like shape and design is changed a bit in that we have like little many markets now in the towns which we didn't use to have yeah and we have obvious ly the Better shops of all the charity shops, again not against charity shops. The perform a useful uh the perform a useful task for the town. But but you know if you get in a lot more charity shops as a signal.

I was lily.

remove business rates. I would create an economic one within the town center. I would remove business rates for any local, locally creative business. So your costers and you have starbucks and your subways, they should have to pay business rates because they're sucking the money out of the town.

And the ding IT, yeah yeah.

somewhere else. I would yeah, I would support local business. And so I say, if you are a local independent business, if you are resident within the metropolit an area and you create a business here, there's as a this no a business rates.

And the second thing I would then create the loans for people to create businesses. Yeah, and I was there. Cause what you will have is just a bunch of people locally maybe working in miserable jobs.

I know I could. I set up a forest. I me there is a forest in the town center is closed down. I wonder if you had no business rates, whether that business were survived. Yeah, yeah, you know, things like that I would incentivise.

And then what happens is you this nice shops in the town and IT grows anything? You know what? I want to go to the town because I want to go to the florist.

I want to have a cup of coffee in the coffee shop, but I want to go to the bookstore and suddenly your driving people into your town center. Raman, right? We need to go shopping.

Let's go to the edge. Hate those edger town. yeah.

yeah. Milton king, because of the big the center. Yeah, I want to down. So you have to incentivise people to do that.

Now I actually I totally agree with that, that the principal I couldn't agree with more. And I as I set out, and I think just like exactly chapter one, pretty much of the book about helping small business um but I have to admit as a councillor, the first thing I think of is okay, no business rates. What are we going to do is a council because every council is now massively struggling financially.

Why is IT social care?

It's it's it's social care is seventy .

percent of the budget and a is .

more than seven percent of the budget and it's going up. And what you've got is this totally unsustainable situation where um David Cameron put in this rule that you can only increase uh council tax by two percent. You can add a little bit more I think for for a social career.

remember but it's not tax four point nine percent if five .

percent has to go a reference right um if it's more than so IT might be more than two point nine nine percent has to go to a referendum .

but then you're allowed to add something on .

for social care. So can this is one pass and then you can add on another parts um without IT going to a referendum. But uh the problem that you've god is that if if you're only allowed to increase IT by a four percent of up to four four point nine five percent each year, that sounds like it's gonna cover inflation, but IT doesn't. No because the because .

they know about inflation well specifically .

for councils, because the the inflation rate for adult social care is way higher and the the inflation rate for building roads， you bitch man, is way, way higher than the Normal inflation rate IT doesn't the Normal inflation rate does not apply. And so you you, you get yourself each year, every council has been cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting. And IT gets to a stage where the proportion of the budget being adult social care keeps on growing .

because you're not legally allow to produce. So i'm interested in this because, again, you're saying this is somebody you also said on not found of raising taxes yeah yeah we just had a five percent raising our rising our council tax, uh, on top of the latest round of tax changes that we got from the labor government social carefull like this could be like another endless bucket IT sounds to me like almost social care is fixing.

but what social care doesn't need fixing.

So if it's more than seventy percent, IT says is eighty percent.

it's for back in accounts for seventy two.

seventy two percent. Okay, what is the breakdown?

Is that that social adult that's so adult social care plus children social the social thing that is the seventy two percent .

so children's social care is those who are living in difficult circumstances. Maybe parents are rugged alcoholics or disabled .

yeah so some of living with their parents but some of the they are living the state looks after, which actually means the council is looking after the full time. That incredibly expensive an adult social care is also incredibly expensive in the regulations around what councils have to do means that is very, very difficult. Reduce spending on that.

Indeed, if you speak to a lot of people who uh who are in the social a sector, they would say that there's not enough money. So I don't know enough about that area in particular to make IT a large comment on IT. But so I know that it's is getting more and more unsustainable for local councils.

Yeah, I would I would love to know you be intrigued to know where the mony's going. What is what? Where is there? Which air is a growing? Which is the is is the addiction? Is old age? I just where where's the budget gun? Because that sounds like something that is unsustainable.

Yeah and I I have had several presentations by the adult social team, but I can't I can't give you the the insights right now at the top of my head. I'm afraid I just know that it's it's growing that is unsustainable. Are the other thing, of course is that councillors like me gotta be totally honest, you know um I know that it's there.

I know there's not much I can do about IT. And what voters want from me is their representative is to fix the roads. It's to um make sure that they can send that their kids to school in the school bus is to make sure that their bins get collected.

And that's where I spend most of my time. It's not so much in the adult social care, which to be fair. And this is one big part of what i've rest in my book, is that you need accountability for there to be any way to improve anything. And as soon as you lose that sense of accountability, you you no longer really have the chance to improve things.

We have so many councils who are either going broke on the brink of going, he would go, is this for Better? So adult social services is nineteen millions that thirty simpsons spend children services, sixty one million, sixty seven million, twenty five percent spend. Housing funded prony by rent serves at forty point eight million council support services and then raised the cling is out. This is their total budget. Okay, so jesus, so the stuff that repeating to be outside of social care and health, western recycling.

look at roads. That's what everyone cares about. Three point seven percent of the total budget.

Yeah so three point seven economic growth and planning is five point that takes us six point one library in the same point once seven point eight. Public protection is say, I mean, all those things you you want library and leisure, you definitely want econic you definitely want public protection and safety.

Yes, we're been smoked by adult and children services, council support services, I D wanna dig into, I don't be raining treat to expect what had all social services, what that ninety eight million is, have been treated to know, because, but, but of the cost are coming because of this fracturing of society is is that downstream of that is IT is IT mental health, is that homelessness, is IT um you know is that women leaving abusive relationships I know have to meet as well. But is IT that because people are feeling this alcoholism or drugs because of people feel helpless? Like is this downstream of all our economic issues? I think the .

potential is well, certainly the isolation piece is big. It's also it's also partly that we've got an aging population rights and so you're going to have more people in in care from the states than in previous generations. But uh, isolation is is a big one.

There was A A ted talk about how people who have strong social networks do not take drugs and do not end in in having drug， drug problems. Now actually, obviously, there are some people who are genetically much more likely to to have that is not that's not the only factor in this, but it's certainly a big factor, those with strong social networks. I don't do that.

And so again, I had to say IT goes back to our design. If you forced people to be isolated in their own homes, uh, it's it's gonna isole laing. And then people you know who are really in a bad shape, they might find, look for community online, find all sorts of extreme and weird, weird places that take them to take them down to really.

But but online social network cannot replace ever the feeling of real friends and family. And we talk about our declining birthday. I know this is a totally separate topic, but IT is weirdly connected. Talk about our declining birth rate. There's a phrase where where you IT takes a village to bring bring up a child, right? Yeah and and we've now got to a place where the family is so nuclear, and even the, even the the nuclear family itself is breaking apart. Ts, that is incredibly stressful for parents to be bringing up children in today's society and they can't take them to the to the grandparents because of how the grandparents are two hours away down the road, rather than just down the road from the. It's so much about about this where the whole way that with the fabric of society is breaking down and it's causing all, all sorts of these problems.

But how do how do we make this popular? Then how do .

we how do we make IT?

Yeah because like, I agree, I mean, look, I think fix the economy, fix the way the government runs economy would be A A good starting point. I think we need to drive growth and we're not going to do that by tax and people more. I think this end is more tax, more borrowing is a broken system. I mean, i've told you I keep ball my money in bitcoin now, because I, I, I believe in some money standards that have you gone down the sound money.

but not even back. Just, just, this is a movement as .

IT and not mean historic move. We used to be, stand, bring up that that happened in seven, and let .

woods h when words came.

yes yeah, yeah. So breakdown was we came off the goal. And so this website is just got a number of charts. Once we came off the sound money standard and we gave government the ability just to print money yeah yeah. And so you see there are one hundred seventy one if you look at groth and I compensation is nineteen forty eight mean for forty eight to seventy to, uh, productive and compensation pretty consistently grown together.

We came off the girl standard productivity since stands up two hundred and forty six percent of conversations, only up hundred and fifty years because we have this massive because location of capital and um and so and we keep going on. So this is really interesting. So real gd people capital is pretty consistent, you know with its death and you the global financial crises, but pretty keep that they come pretty consistently. Um but if you ever look at average real wage and the real wage is becoming a mistake nant.

Yeah yeah and .

this is this kind of like when you when you are allow you give government the printing press for money, they will print money to solve the problems because it's here what's popular and what's not popular. Rising taxes is not unpopular. When you stand out in front a retro reis a budget, every single tax rise is unpopular yeah but when they save increasing bar is yeah .

you just don't really .

understand all the borrow more money, how much go doesn't matter, get paid to people. I don't think people really understand the inflationary tax.

We know they they don't understand that keep going on. I want to go back to that chance .

and in a moment yeah but I mean that's just so many of these charts uh and IT all tends from coming off the summer standards that we had that the world that regulated the assurance of money um and this is why we we we've gotten born crisis coming. Because there's no faith in the currency because it's like what happened when list trust have famous mini budget.

Yes.

I think SHE had the right idea. He wants to drive growth. Okay, great.

Let's reduce borrowing.

IT was reduction attack and reduced borrowing, but no, a efficiency efficiencies government. So at that point, your message to the market is we are basically gona devalue our currency, okay, but on are going to shoot up. We know we want to higher yield and that's why I crashed, yes.

But yeah, this kind of sound money standard is, I think IT enforces a discipline on you. You mean you essentially live put us on the sell money standard in your house? Yeah, have a more kitchen.

You have a you maybe have a colon and you have your income outgoing. And if you want to go over that, you take out alone if to pay your loans back and if you don't, your house get repossess. And yeah, you're on the street.

So you have to live on the same money standards I do, can not does. And the guy drilling out in the street below. Welcome on the rose.

Thanks me. He's to do that. But the government .

doesn't yeah not soil.

They can just print as much as they want, and they can push the liability for that debt onto the next administration. Future generations is why yeah we have a we have A A different kind of house crisis。 We have a housing crisis where health have become.

oh, for sure, they should never be assets, their commodities. Yes, I that's always been a problem. I i've always been against this this concept that there should be some sort of investment.

I'll give you an interesting number. We're looking my summer to buy a house right or flat, whatever. A flat in bedford that we've looked at is is two and a half times the Price of the house eye first bought twenty years ago, which was a three bedroom house with a garden that is actually inflation.

Anybody who you makes us these money, they know they can't. They can't live in the bank and aftermarket assets yeah and that's because we have this this just ridiculous when the government for whatever the fact they want. And I think I think that was a bit that was missing in the book for me, is like, how do we where they could we put constraints on government debt?

H, I think you are not sure you can, you know you you can you just seen IT, right? The conservatives put certain constraints on government debt. And as soon as labor gotten, they change the fiscal rules to problem because that's the thing parliament to soft in the is is h because they control parliament.

The government is soren um and they can make whatever rules they want. I'm not sure that you can you can constrain them. But one thing which I just wanted to go back to this charter, which I find very interesting, you see how GDP is increasing, yes, but the real media weekly earnings are not here.

The politicians will on everyone, the journalist, everyone will always be focusing on the wrong thing. If we are measuring our success in the wrong way, we are currently all the time measuring our success based on nominal GDP. And as long as we keep doing that, certainly by itself, the longer we will go in the wrong direction should be flared.

Well, I got to a quote .

here from David Cameron, from his bird, which he says people might look back at those years of economic growth on the labor between nineteen thousand and thousand eight, and think that surely something must have gone right on the face of IT. They would be correct. The number of jobs did increase, but over seventy percent of them went to workers from overseas.

If you took away immigration in the public sector, the number of jobs had actually fall incense, ninety ninety seven. And there was growth. But this was primarily in the size of the state, which increased in a decade from thirty four percent of GDP to forty five percent of GDP, faster than almost any economy over the same.

So the problem with GDP is that um IT takes into account government spending. So if the government increases, uh is spending by by five percent, you have increased GDP just and so as long as you use that particular uh, measure by itself, governments have a strong incentive to keep increasing spending no matter what. IT also does some other weird things. I really .

want private sector GDP.

Well, even then, it's not brilliant in in fifteen. I ve just reading here in the book, irelands GDP jumped by twenty six percent inside a year only because apple changed its accounting affairs so that a large part of its business activity was suddenly counted in. But that doesn't mean the island's people was was twenty six percent Better off because of IT, not at all.

And and the other part of GDP is that IT measures consumption. So if you buy um ten a ten plastic bags and they're not reusable, there are ten plastic bags rather than one bag that will last you for your lifetime, G D P will grow more because you bought all of those those those non usable plastic bags pending. And so again, that doesn't mean that you you've gain more value, although the economy is in a Better position. Actually, if we all consumes less, we might actually find ourselves Better position in in the consumption society we .

are currently in.

So what what are the good measure? So I do believe that you've got to use GDP. Um you always want to do IT by in a per capital basis. And you should also look at IT as well and a um purchasing power priority measure whereby you are able to compare apples and apples against other countries to see how you're doing internationally.

not just by itself OK. So inflation adjusted G D P capital. And then you would want to point that against what other countries are doing.

That's one thing. But the other part is exactly what was on that chart there. You just bring that chart back up. You've got the real median income. So that is actually how people are feeling you when they're thinking about how are things going Better for me or not are basically since one hundred and seventy one, things have not been going Better for them.

Kind of you got check GDP GPT sorry you have um see thing get IT up just I I wanted to try something in there.

That's the thing that people should be looking at. The thing that journalist the politicians should be looking at are people's standard of living going up based on the the core parts of of inflation, you know housing and foods and that sort of stuff.

That's why inflation is, I think, is one of the biggest councils we deal with were dealing with. And we're going to have to continue to deal with. If they continue to increase barrer n and they are not going to continue to increase uh, uh, uh, uh, spending, then we're going to see more.

more inflation. Yeah but but if you have that measure yeah of real a real median income and by the way, you can also measure real bottom quintile uh income to make sure where the the bottom the bottom part of society are keeping up and you're not just increasing the gap. But if you do that, it's taking inflation into account.

So if can you imagine if politicians they had to measure themselves against weather, real median income as well as GDP capture was improving. Suddenly, I couldn't just get away with things going well because inflation has gone up. And no one's really thinking about IT. If inflation gone up, that's actually causing a drag on people's real media incomes and they would make different decisions for sure.

Try this prompt, say, uh, create a table. Showing uh inflation adjusted GDP. Per capital. In the U K. For the last thirty years.

IT has gone up but nowhere there .

as much as nominal GDP, right? And then just tell him to put IT in a chart.

It's chat chy fees but .

so be useful yeah it's just doing the right is not a great .

put in a line graph.

I mean, the market now used tragedy. Pico, I did. You can I say weird, I got to produce.

And what why did say can can eat me? I can't continue. That's weird, because i've literally had a good for me.

weird. Just, just say, what? What do you say? Yes, you can.

My dad, my dad just shows. Be a computer. Want to see you. I told IT like it's real. Have you actually talked to the chat d to .

use the first? Yes.

amaze.

Skating more.

you right? I can help you create the chart directly.

outrageous.

But now I just giving .

you the plot is IT. I think that might be.

I think you broken at corner, all right. So anyway, just go back to the table. Just go back, come back there later. But yeah so from nineteen ninety four, up from twenty two thousand pound G D people capital score down to thirty nine thousand OK, that's fine. But then who's that going to?

That's what we want to know.

So the problem can you now ask IT, can we have the what was .

at the medium the the the a real median income.

real median income again in a table for the last .

of thirty years in the U K.

ah.

If you 去 买水 了。 This weak because that the chance i've been put in my blog that the ones have been creed on. So go down.

you'll see that there's been very, very little change, especially over the past ten years, has been almost no change to. And I think .

people are feeling that.

People are feeling that. And then if you were to look at the bosom quinta rather than the media and actually don't know what that particularly child would look like. But um uh it's it's not okay to be leaving behind the most vulnerable in our society. And currently G D P does not measure that in any way.

Percentage of come in these different um bands. What they're spending on grocery is what they are spending on fuel spending because i'm sure certain a lot of them going up. Yeah, I I I just feel like disposable income is being squeeze because the middle class is being squeeze.

And I think these are the kind, this, I know when you when you sit the dispatch, but you see people gump and debating, this is what I want the debating. yeah. I want them to put the charts up and say, this is the impact.

How are gonna fix this? How you're gone to fix this and almost because we need an educated public that understands these things and have has the expectation like expecting from our politicians. I also think we need media to do a Better job.

Yeah the media they often do not understand statistics. I'd love to see a situation where there is a qualification for journalists, which is so focused on being dated, driven and not just accepting any statistics, commentary that that they might come across, you know.

is mad. So I told you we got a football club. Uh, data is foundational to everything we do.

fantastic.

Completely foundational like on the business side, uh, we track uh how many people come to a game of what they spend money on per item by category, food a snacks, alcohol s drinks, merchandise programs, uh the average spent uh uh uh person who comes the average profit per per uh whether is a midweek game, this is uh uh a second game like we track everything so we can drive more people to come and spend more money yeah at the games.

But we also use data within or we use Normal data with performance. We want to know, uh, how many times we we got into the box and when we got the box, how many times we create an opportunity of those, what percentage were goals? Again, foundational for knowing the players we wanted sign and to try win games is foundational to what we're doing.

We've went back to back promotions. We've on the title. If we were league this year, we will be only the third side .

in the history of english football.

one, three titles. We on the same is foundational to what we do. Our goal is to get a team into the foobar league, ultimately the premier league, people like us.

But we have a trade and we we billion the one to arrow in the money in us. And so what i'm saying is like data is a foundational to us being successful, for sure. But our success, Thomas, is measured in trophies and promotions.

Data is foundational for governments with foundational for trying to find the messages to prove to the elector that you should revote for them, not based on the trying to prove to themselves they've done a job. Yeah public sector vist private sector. We're in the vise and private sector.

We want to make a profit because we want to buy a new car, new house. We we want the money. But within government, they they want to retain their position.

Yeah, but I, I, I, I actually see that is not so different from one another. Most politicians, they we are talking about political games before they think that the whole thing is a game. They can they catch out their opponents, can they deliver a witty line, can they get uh, the next headline? And um that might work in the short term, but even then less than I think IT does uh if if you're actually improving people's lives and you focus on that dead, then you can make a massive difference inside five years and people will vote for you again.

And when people see that you're not doing these political games, which Frankly blow up in people's faces and they looked like he crates, so they looked like they don't know what they're talking about, they stop doing that. I honestly believe that they would get more and more voters coming their way even even if, uh, they might not be, uh, aligned. I remember leon, you know, twenty fifteen was an example of this when I was knocking on people's doors.

H, for the conservative, sometimes people would say, I don't agree with you guys, but you guys, but the conservatives are competent, so i'm gonna vote for you so you would get that. And obviously, since twenty fifteen, people have felt less and less that like that with the conservatives. 嗯， but IT does show you can get people on on side just by being competent.

Well, listen, i'm gona read the book because I was fascinated by scheme and sometimes I, you know, I get a book from into another scheme so I know what to talk to the bus and I don't go read book. I'll be read in the book, probably make my boy read book as I, I, I honestly, I think you are, you are on the money. I just hope, I hope you can get this in front of the right people. And I hope it's a kind of book that can drive the kind of change we nee because i'm worried about where we had. I just, I just everything seems to just begin a bit more shit and you know all this gonna en is good people will leave the country um and we will continue you we will Carry on the trajectory of more um social fragmentation and I just is not good so well done what is a place to call home available?

Amaze I vents I if there's enough demand for IT yeah I mean.

you can get a to do IT. You can literally eleven, seven labs I think is called. You can upload your voice, half an hof.

your voice and I will dict the entire, wow, a lot of .

deep fakes, deep face, you IT means. But that sounds good.

That sounds good.

You don't have to spend ten, fifteen hours like all IT doesn't congratulation to. And yeah.

hope we do this can sometime. And thank you very much for having me on really lona right.

Thank you for listen, everybody. You see.