Ben Habib on Reform's Opportunity, UK Economy, National Identity & Brexit - MOB023
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To call the voter apathetic is to underestimate the british voter. They voted for brakes that they didn't get IT they voted for trees. A man in twenty and seventeen hoping SHE deliver breaks IT SHE didn't do IT the voter for bois Johnson to deliver a breaks IT actually he didn't do IT and people are pissed off yeah and that's why they're sitting at home.

They are really upset because they don't see any hope. Now reform Carries those hopes. Reform, I think, has changed political engagement because it's got five seats. The chAllenge now is for nigel and Richard to create a really first class party with fantastic candidates in the shadow cabinet. If they can do that, they could form the next government.

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But yeah, just is good. That's good. Very excited talk you well.

i'm very excited to talk to. I'm flatted to be invited.

Thank you. Well, so I feel like we're a weird time in the U. K. As I mentioned you before, i've decided to move back. We will spend more my time and not move.

I live in bedford, so but to spend more my time here, what can broad the issues? Because I just think very mad times. Yeah.

we are. And they seem to get matter just as you think we've reached a trough of madness IT .

goes even deeper. yeah. So I say just one one example. So i'm watching the labor budget and i'm expecting worst actually expected the people worse than I was. I expected capital gains tax to be hammered, but you are watching through the budget. I'm thinking .

you .

guys don't know what is like to own a business. I mean, I am one of my business is I am a bar ah i'll take ens down a good thirty percent this year because there's been a squeeze on pressure of budgets .

and bars a bit in the crossings, hubs, bars, hospitality, crossers of everything pretty much .

yeah because if not, if not a home being programmed by A T V, we not use these. Are bars about thirty, thirty percent down. And then I know why this, a cost of living crisis with the mortgage of rest going out, people don't have much money to go out.

I get that and it's tough for only a few businesses anyway. And I was working thinking your budget, which is talking about growth, is making business harder, without doubt, will make everyone of my business more difficult. I like account going to some research. I'm going to have a look at what businesses these people on the front bench of run yeah here IT, is I put you out a tweet, not a single person on the labor front benches of a run a company.

I mean, not surprising is that john rental was in charge of the easy, the business minister. I know I I know I can't remember the names. They are so important, these people.

that they just he worked as a solicitor.

but he's a business minister, isn't he?

Don't you know?

Yeah yeah. And I think when you run a business.

you you understand .

the .

basic of economic sense. And so I said that thinking, right, not one of you has run a company. So how do you understand the pressures you putting us? And then the next week I did, I had Steve Baker at here.

I don't. If you don't, Steve, I do. We had a good chat. Yeah I said to him because he understands basic.

I like how many how many people in government understand the basics of economics. Summary was most of them don't and those that do realize how how bad the problem is. So they're just passing over the next administration.

Yeah well, it's awful. And Rachel reeve, who I think he is the chance of the exchequer last time I look, claims to have had a job in the bank of england, but I think for a month and he was an administration or sunday SHE wasn't in economist as well as I understand, without wishing to be on the end of a liberal seat after this is published. But now there's a complete lack of understanding. But IT is basic common sense.

You know, we say that they've never been in business, but how much sense do you need to realize that if you put up employers national insurance a cost and you lower the threshold ld at which employers national surana levied, you're going to actually impact those people who are the most vulnerable able in society already, because that the lowest n is the working class effectively and that the only mitigate that our business is, is either not to give them salary rises or to fire them you know what else if you got there's your leavers aren't there is a business man. So the pressure came straight on to um onto the working class, which is which is a segment of the society that they said they would avoid hitting and of course, at the same time, they increase minimum weight. So if you are in the hospitality business is as as you are, i'm sure you'll testify to this.

You employ lot of people on minimum wage. If the minium wage goes up, employees and eye goes up, the threshold which is levy goes up, business rates goes up because that's what they did as well. Every part of your cost space is being hit and your turny is knocking up because people are getting port because of all the tax ates that they're just levied, which means that you're gonna a profit squeeze. The only way to alleviate the profit squeeze to create is to cut costs. Cutting costs generally means firing people, which means the exact as bill for benefits goes up, the private sector gets weaker and you're in a spiral of which IT becomes difficult to emerge in this common sense isn't that well?

It's it's worth with the business like the bar. So we always paid above minimum wage. We always paid just like a about ah we wanted to have the in the town nice but we also have to add twelve point zero seven percent of the holiday pay even though these people only are working weekends.

And I understand where the policy comes from, but it's it's not a policy that helps the sector. And yeah, we can cost anywhere because we need the staff. Less staff means less people serving.

So we have to have the right mouse stuff to serve the people. The truth is, at time of recession, repress res businesses like this will just go on, can survive. But I know other bars down three bars in the town I live and have approached me to buy them. These pressures are too hard yeah and and I don't know how anyone thinks you can drive growth by increasing taxes, increasing taxes and increasing yeah I don't know.

no. And at the same time, and we haven't touched on IT, but they're making employment regulations more demanding too. So you know working four days a week, the working time directive, which was restricted only to certain parts of the public sector before going to to be implemented on a broader scale, you went you won't able to fire people used immediately after there have been employed.

You won't to let them go. There's no of Grace pay anymore. They're getting to zero as contracts. All of this is a burden non business. And I think they kind of understand it's a burden because, as you know, they didn't levy the employers and I increase on the public sector. They realized this is gonna more expensive for them.

They couldn't put turn to you together and realized that would be more expensive for the private sector or IT could be more sinister than that Peter IT could be. They couldn't give a down about the private sector to help with the private sector. The government onna get bigger. It's gonna more, it's gonna collect more money and it'll be more interventionist. And we'll have a biggest state run government.

biggest state run economy. I think the problem we're facing, the the conclusion i've come to is that we don't have a party problem. We have a government problem.

And I think there is a misalignment between election cycles and economic cycles. What the government should do will not get them in power. The decisions that need to be made will not get them in p. Yeah, and I firmly believe that I think, I think this trust had some right ideas. But that was badly executed.

I think terrible.

I think you understood the problem.

yeah. And I and I applauded her, actually, for what he did. And no, SHE made a set of promises. And then he did something extraordinary, which has tried to deliver on the promises. And but SHE did IT really badly.

SHE have had the problem. Yeah, but I just think there's that misalignment. Now I, I, I, you know what I think will happen. I P i'm fairly confident unless something happens of reform will get into that. But i'm fairly confident one of two things is gonna en in uh uh five years time. For five years time, somehow labor was great through win a second term, but I don't think they will and I think they're gonna the are rare single term uh parliament, a government um if if they .

don't if they .

don't get back in, there's a strong chance that we conserve this again. And I think conservatives will continue much the same. I think perhaps will be offered some tax cuts, but I still think they will be borrowing at record rates.

And I think we are still facing the sovereign ad crisis. I think I think I think this mathematically, the sufferer deck crisis is unavoidable unless we see a government come into power with very strict controls on spending and reducing and taxation to drive. That's what I believe as a business on.

I don't know what your VISA. I I agree, I think we're facing A A strike on buying gilts. You know there's been a progressive move.

I'm sure you're aware of this, Peter, regulatory changes that have been put in place place over the last ten or fifteen years directing institutions away from braying chairs and companies investing in bridge economy towards buying government bonds. So pension funds, for example, you know would used to be seventy, eighty percent and invested in U. K.

Shares, and now eighty percent invested in government bonds, which is why, partly why, when list trust had her growth driven measures that he wanted to put in place. And that would have been slightly inflationary. Interest rates went up and up. Ancient schemes came on the, uh, existent al threat. Now pension schemes should actually do well.

Historically, they should do well when interest rates go up because even though asset values may drop, the discounted liability, the discounted value of their liabilities in the future drops faster so they get richer, know, ironically, used to be when interest rates go up. But they suffered an existential crisis when interest rates went up under trust because they no longer investing in the united kingdom economy. So a lot of the money that we had domestically that was available to go into government bonds has already gone into government bonds.

We need foreigners now to buy gills because our domestic institutions, you know, fully max died on U. K. Government debt.

And we're not like the us. You know, the kinder famously said it's our currency village. Your problem because everyone has to buy dollars, sterling, eight like that.

No, people have a choice word sterling. And we have to be very, very careful. Actually, i'm surprised sterling is held up as well as IT has since the budget. IT has come off a bit against the dollar, and I think it's gonna continue to come off because what we're not gonna so kind of moving on. But you know what we're nagging to see is a sort of supercharge united tes of america, which is gonna drill, baby drill.

It's onna cut taxes, is gonna a deregulate and that's gonna reveal even more this scale, oic economic policies of the european union and the united kingdom, which are essentially socialist, large day, big spending, high taxation. And as the us. Takes off, an interest rate in the U.

S. Will then have to be higher because otherwise be inflationary. Capital from the world will be sucked into the us. And we're going to see we're going to see a collapse in our economies. That's what's gona happen. So we either get on the bandwagon with the trump agenda and we ditch net zero and we ditch all these regulations and we cut taxes, and we have the courage to cut benefits and other things that would need to be cut in order to baLance the books and go for a regenerate growth strategy, or we are gonna White, White out.

I just I cannot see anywhere that happens under a labor administration.

no. But you know you mention that theyll be one term government. yeah. I think one terms as long as it's going to go because I could i'm not wishing IT, but it's quite possible that we have A A baLance payment crisis and this government side on its year in two years, how does that happen?

Functions well, functionally, if they can't if they run a deficit that they can't plug because people aren't buying deals, interest rates go through the roof, but pants still collapses because people don't want to invest in sterling, you then you end up going to the I M. For a bailout. Any government that goes to the I M, F for a baa is gonna be on this.

Here is a weird world where the U. K. Government is going to the m.

baa. It's happened before, you know, one thousand nine hundred and seventy.

So tell me what was orn orn? yeah.

So I was slightly before your time, but we had to go cap in hand to the ms. It's one of the reasons we ended up in the european economic community because you know we wanted a nani on which to hang. But actually, we just had the wrong policies then, and we've got the wrong policies now.

And I mean, that is conceivable. You know, we labour onto this full solution. We keep damaging this country. We keep damaging and economically, culturally, constitutionally.

And I think most people, a laboring under the full solution that no matter how IT gets, everything will be fine, is the U. K. We've grown up.

It's been fine for forty years here. Most of us have had perfectly fine existence, haven't we? We don't really know what difficulty is like, but we are.

We cannot. Travel with that presumption. It's a fundamentally false presumption. We have to be prepared for things going really badly wrong. And only then, I think, is there a sporting chance of coming up with the policies that will see us right? And this presumption that IT all be arrived on the night is .

gonna us in yeah that's the sad as part of IT is how bad IT has to get for people to realize. I went out to bonus is, uh, just before the election and I went out to speak to malay's economic advisor yeah um was very impressive .

in malta I speak did on the U N.

The other day did you that I was that were translated I like was IT was incredibly .

well delivered in english but I could have been .

A I I i've seen part that I buy some previous wanted the wef yeah where he basically says I see the future because i've lived in in argentina. I'm gona tell you the future that's coming for you.

But argentina had to go through decades of inflation and hyperinflation to get to the point where even the people with the beneficiaries of the the the logic um or do they call the paris that I forget the name um even they say we've had enough of the ship yeah and so um I think his project super interesting. But I worry how much pain people to go through. One thing I do hope is that I am seen I am starting to feel there's a shift.

I feel with the internet, we've had this shift in that, uh, we get the truth quicker like we get the we get the arguments, we get the truth quicker. There is, I believe, like we haven't had the internet labor kind of would have got away with this for four years, maybe got a second term, but there was an ava launch of content coming against their policies. And it's not freely from .

the BBC or sky. Do they have got the they brought into this large.

but we've got this growth of independent media and social media, uh, commentators who are actually just speaking the truth of people that they they're able to uh kind of form cohort to go a less around truth and ideas. I mean, the farmers, the more is a great example, uh, we'll be protesting and I think next week and I um so that is my hope is that there is enough people who started hold. I'm kind of broke IT and I don't know how know my middle class and I broke and I I hope that's going .

to force some problem. I mean, example, I use an example, web businesses have to sack people in order to survive. But your example is actually even more frightening where businesses won't be able to sack because they're already on way for thin kind of employment levels and they just go under.

Now if the business goes under, it's not one of two people out of the business that end up on benefits. Everyone of that business sends up on benefits. So your tax take, which is about three hundred billion a year, goes down because they're not working anymore.

They're on the, they're on the on the doll or whatever the modern expression is. And your and your courses, the nation that eighty to one hundred billion that we have on benefits goes up. And every time you take your tax take down and your cost go up, they think or will sort this by putting taxes up again and exacerbating the problem.

Well, is mad. I mean, my son working on a cafe at the moment in bedford will trying to open, uh, it's it's one it's taken forever because the and we've done our capex and our pets planning.

what telling you up .

is IT planning. I mean, not so much planning. The first part they found a special, so that has to be dealt with, right?

Uh, the second one is just, uh, we're at point now with the contracts with the landlord, I don't even understand them anymore. I honestly don't understand. I i've signed a ninety eight page document, a property .

this yeah you should come to .

me and property, I think I just want to pay you this every every year and have the place as well. What do we need? Ninety eight pages of contract.

Anyway, my lawyers handle that. But the biggest, the problem i've seen, so I mentioned you with all, have considered office. If I went in to office, the first thing I would do is in every single town center, I would eliminate business rates for local businesses. I don't know that's legally allowed, but I think costs and style backs and subway can afford their business rates. And we have so many empty shops or .

businesses that open to six months later, they close business rates. An evil on your attempt. You do business before you even made any money.

Yeah, it's all attacks on turn. It's an attack. It's a tax before you even make any turn over.

What's this kind of fifteen grand?

Sixteen is shocking.

So this is a cafe, right? Me, a cafe at best, one hundred grand a year. So that sixteen percent for the attempts, you say, and threw in the fact that we we ve got strict employment laws for the people we're bringing in.

So not only to have a minimum wage, but we also have to add the twelve point opposite the holiday. And god knows how we get rid of anybody if we want to, if if somehow, then somehow we make a profit, will pay corporation tax. After that, if there's something left for me, asia dividend tax, yet massive dividend tax. And if I managed to save some of that, i'll pay cabal games tax. And then when I die, my son will pave the whole things madness.

IT is crazy. And I just want to go to that divided tax point. You know, everyone's talked about entrepreneurs being put off investing in the united kingdom because of C. G.

T going up on on the owercome phares, actually one of the worst taxes and IT happened under the tories that has been implemented as a ratcheting up of tax on dividends because if you're a portraying long term OA of your business, what keeps you interested in your business is the ability to pay yourself for dividend. And if that is increasingly tax more and more, that's gonna push you into selling your business. And we have twenty five percent corporation tax and then thirty eight percent tax on dividends.

So there over fifty is I think it's about fifty four percent in total that you end up paying as an entrepreneur before you can put money in your back pocket. And we have a real problem in this country compared to the us, of taking businesses from smaller, medium size enterprises to kind of medium sized businesses to mega businesses. The us.

Does IT brilliantly. They've got a petition sense of ownership, and they take their businesses all the way through to being world beers. We get to a certain size.

Our entrepreneurs get to certain size to o oh my god, i'm being tax. So happy i'm going to sell my business and get out before IT gets bigger. Which means we never we never create those world leading a you know businesses and it's it's a tragedy and but you've articulated IT brilliantly. You know even if you succeed against all the odds, all the costs, all the taxation, when you die, you're gona give IT.

This is the matter. So I, the only reason, open this cafes for our football club. We want to have a club shop in town.

So we have had for the foobar chain. A cop shop will never make enough money, so if you make IT a cafe, you can make enough money. So I can pay for itself.

I don't need you to make money. Functions retry. I economically rear in all the work I do. Now, what I want to do for fun, which is taught to you on foobar club .

anta tic thing you're doing.

but we could open more businesses in the town. I got the capital. I just keep them easier.

what? So, I mean, I could. We've talked about a pizz shop, a sports bar. We've talked about clothing. All these things made my son talk about here. Everyone, I look and say this just too difficult, like it's, I don't think I know with with no government in the way I can make profitable businesses. What is stopping me create a profitable .

business is government? Yeah.

absolutely. And so how many people bend in my hometown, have looked at an empty shop, thought I want to start there, and they've looked into the cost of raising capital. The difficulty of open in the business is just possible. So we've made IT impossible.

absolutely. And and of course, the other consequence of all of this is that IT makes IT very difficult for the british wage. Na earn a decent wage.

So our businesses then get hooked on importing cheap labor. And they have the ability to do that because of these are systems allow them to do IT. And so we pull the rugged out even more from underneath the british workers.

You've got cheap imported labor. Businesses say, well, the bridge don't want to work. That's absolute blox.

The bridge do want to work. They just want to be paid a fair day's wage for the work they do. And they want to be allowed to keep some of IT off to day earning.

And then you get into, again, that kind of vicious cycle that I was describing because, you know, at the moment, i'm sure you're a way we've got six million people in this country, twenty percent of the workforce surviving on universal credit. Two and a half million of those people aren't even looking for a job. Most of those two and a half million a laming mental health issues.

And they've been paid out day and day out by the state. Now there's very little impetus for them to get up and going get a job because actually the median wage in this country is thirty three thousand pounds branam. After tax, you're taking home maybe twenty three, twenty four thousand tops. You know, you can more or less get there through benefits. So why would you get out off your sofa, switch off your netflix and going get work? We, as you say, we need a slightly bitter pill for people to have to swallow, which is to have that safety net slightly reduced, freeze them a little bit, force them on to their own two feet, but then give them the ability to earn a decent wage and keep a good proportion of IT.

See, what i'm interested is, is how how do we communicate these people? Because i'm going on the same page as you. But you know what to happen.

The accusation coming. Well, you just, you just, you just a rich person. You're just a successful person.

You've not live that you don't understand what it's like. You know you really just want tax cuts for you. You know, this point we ve got to where Richard become a pejorative. Yeah, that one thing actually really yes, a lot I like about nigel and I get attacked for just for saying that by the way, you. You'll understand, but the recent speech you gave after the budget is that we need to celebrate success.

We need to Foster.

But the term, the term rich has become a jura's in a lot of, certainly from left, left wing socialist is like they constantly treat riches pja ity. Which this .

was again the case in the seventies.

right? yeah. okay.

Mean, I made IT all right to be a self mid guy.

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I have been going down the Maggie hole reason as well this I regret speech of us where SHE SHE said, let's be it's something going on designs. Let's just be honest, the state doesn't have any money. All IT has is the money to take some thanks.

glad. Why can't we talk? Why is IT Richie's saying that? But, but, but the point I wanted get to is, I, I, I think I understand where later I just come from.

I think they come from. I do think they come from a place of empathy. Yeah I just think the theoretical framework is entirely wrong. And I don't think they realize the the theoretical framework they they Operate under when executed actually uh is actually actually everyone and you create a bigger wealth gap on the socialism and and you you bring everyone down and the .

real wealth flow, we just .

leave there he is yeah there's no such thing. Public money, there's only taxpayers money is a great beijing yeah. So my my life is like the job here because is easy, is going twitter and shout of people I do myself sometimes. But, but, but the truth is, how do we sit down? I think .

the working class get IT .

I working class get. It's the champagne socialist.

yeah. It's the easy to ite and it's the people who are benefiting at the other random on benefits. There are people who are voting for benefits because, Frankie, they know couldn't care less.

You know, two, two and half million people claiming mental health issues. I'm sorry to sad harsh, but I don't believe there are two in one hundred million people in this country who are unable to work as a mental health issues. In the one thousand nine and eighties, we didn't have mental health issues. There was no such thing. You had a backpack when you want to get off work, you had a backup and no one could explain .

what where that came from. I don't forgiving mental help crisis, at one point suffered from severe anxiety. You get a heart. And this record, S V, T, I still went to work. Yeah, still want .

to work to birds in my own life is a business man. You too. Yeah, you can't avoid them. The pandemic and followed by, you know interest rates going up, but the boring cost going up, property values crashing on a property guy know that's been all very testing for me in the last when I am making IT back, but that doesn't mean you give up. You've gotta.

You've got A I think i'm very lucky because I was born in one hundred and sixty five and a kind of magic child, and I believe in hard work and aspiration. And I have a sense of self belief which propels me, which many people may not have the privilege of having. And i've been very luckily well educated at but but um you know you've got to create the environment in which people believe that they can prevail and that once they prevail, they can keep the fruits of the of their success.

If you create that aspiration and if you give IT validation, as you were saying, rather than making IT a prevails, you give IT validation. It's cool to have a bmw. You know, that's what magi did.

You made a cool to have A, B, M, W. Everyone gets up and they want to work because they want that B, M, W. They want the ray bands. They want the armani suit is grim, as some people might think. That is, it's a great driver.

And we should all inspire what? And I think the natural, by the way, I think the natural human instinct is to want to aspire, is to be aspirational, to be ambitious, to do wealth yourself and leave your children more than you had when you came into this world. But the labor government's policy, and this is something, I think, that had infected western civilization right across the board until the trump got elected, is the way we've been govern economically.

And IT affects our culture and everything else as well, is one of lack of self confidence. Wealth redistribution. You can really succeed. The state has to do IT all for you. You know, whenever there's a problem.

Now, I even find myself thinking why I have, why isn't the local council sorted that out? And I think, no, bon, and sorted itself. Do you know what I mean?

The mindsets completely change when we've got to go away from wealth redistribution to wealth creation, from dependency to aspiration. These are two critical things, which Maggie you had up. Maggie was always banging on about aspiration. I remember that is all about the human spirit, worrying to get out of bed in the morning, enthusiastic, not getting out of bed in the morning. God.

another day. But I think, I think part that comes .

out to tougher than people up, I absolutely .

mean just stick on a carrot isn't sure an opportunity. But I still this morning, you know, this happens, but but I also recognize watching the environment, how much harder is for him than IT was for me. I had to buy five ground of my dad to buy a house.

My, my son and my daughter going to be so far away from being to get the property ladder that they need a lot more help. They don't need help because, uh, they're incapable. They need help because start of your career from eighteen to get to the point we've got enough in savings and you can ford the mortgage and the council tax and the bills. I mean, you need me unlike forty fifty grand a year. I mean you need be basic above the medium, right?

Yeah I mean, forty fifty grand air won't even get .

you A I .

would not get you anywhere near anything.

Well, that's why I think we've had this growth of these ticket and the multiple son occupancy m multi occurence .

cy hmos m yeah I know think that's a reflection .

on just a squaze of the opportunity to get on the property later. And I know i've gotta issue where they might mean, I think there's serve in a demand. I think they're a reaction to government policy. And I no, i'm very critical of this labor government, but I I think the conservatives enabled this.

Oh absolutely I mean, I mean let is talk about the housing supply. Everyone goes on about the absence of a housing supply. And so they're passing laws to make what used to be regarded as Green um you know outstanding areas of natal beauty into gray zones on which they will build new housing.

But going back to your your example of a town center, there are so many historic offices above shops in town centres which is just not usable anymore. No one's bothering converting them into flats because one planning is very restrictive. And to the building regulations required to commit to comply with net zero obligations, the installation required, the upgrades required, makes IT far too intricate a job, far too complex. Then just going to a Green field and .

building a box on IT. How do you based, say, you as a property guy, you would have .

to go to these towns money, you know, in the one hundred and ninety, if I applied for a planning permission to get, let's say, ten houses on a on on the site, IT would have cost me two or three thousand pans for the planning permission to get ten houses on the site.

Now i've got ta check whether the great quested mutes are going to be impacted, whether there any bats that are going to be impacted, whether the noise levels are going to be too high, whether whether the trees that we need to cut back, even though they're absolutely just scrap, whether that's gonna affect the environment. We have to go through all these studies. There would be a hundred grand minimum just to get planning.

And then you've got a bill stuff to a standard, which is absurd. Nine days, one of the bigger problems new build houses have is removed. And it's because houses are so well insulated not to comply with next zero obligations that there's no draft going through a house. And Frankly, you need a draft going through to keep the fabric of a building healthy. You need air going through IT.

I mean, you can can you get up the back shed? You see the batch.

Do you see the thing to the H. S. Two hundred million pants? How do?

How do I like? How do a hundred .

million I in? These guys can blow millions all over the place?

No problem. But what should the shed itself cost? IT looks to me like couple of the liquid.

I didn't know how they've done IT.

but that's not one hundred million. No IT doesn't .

look like a hundred. I don't know how long IT is. Doesn't but these guys are mad. I saw um I saw completely digressing from the specific example, but I saw a government grant for nine and half million pounds to develop a drug that you can give the cattle to prevent them from creating. So we're going to have cars that can't thought you know why would you gave anyone nine and a half million quid?

I don't eat that stake. If you know what I say.

we're living in a math world.

I like my s thought, be honest, I was, yeah. I mean, look, I can I give you an exact, you will know this one tell. So when I bought my house, I was a new bill, nice house, gravel driveway, IT couldn't get signed off until .

there was a world chair ramp up .

to the house. Yeah, as soon as we moved in the house, we will remove the world chair .

up because we know why. Like that is it's the so it's a there's a very big answer to this or a very short time. The short is the precautionary principle has just taken over o, so that all of us have to protect all of us all the time. There's a set of staircases that I go up. I get a gba news quite often.

It's near patting ton and there's a stay case at the exit towards upping news, which on the thread of each step, IT has a message for you as you travel this incredible dangerous staircase and they include messages like don't be on your phone while you walking, hold onto the hand rail. That kind of thing is you go up the steps, the top step on the top step of this on the top step, and has take the lift. But I met the top step. I just gone out the staircase.

No, no, I feel sorry for my kiss because I didn't get to live through the the eight in the nineties. IT was a pre phone. I mean, and I had a great time. There was pretty, pretty much every internet, early internet. And basically we weren't out, got in trouble. We hear ourselves, we did, you know, we found ways to get cigarets and we smoke and we got alcohol, we got drunk and we went on our maxis m, we went on dirt tracks and we found, uh, with their building houses around around which life was well, is everything so protected now.

so protected and ti black this off big time with his health and safety regulations? You know that someone climbing a ladder can't go on a ladder more than five metres tall without someone else holding IT. So you can see what that does for the workforce and the way you think.

And don't get me wrong, I think you know, I think some of the health and safety stuff is been incredible. I mean, i'm pretty sure I read some very interesting statistics about the the changes of injuries in factories since the health says yeah was born. And look, this I I get the case for some regulation symbols, but IT does seem to have gone mad. We ve stop this. We've gotten this thing where people build an immune system to life.

Yeah, personal agencies being progressively removed isn't IT. So I agree with your health and safety regulations should exit to prevent the exploit of workers. But there should be people should be liked to think for themselves. You know, I should be decide what I can do that on that ladder. You know, just do my own work.

Are you with me? They, foobar and new football theyve got rid of heading. Do you know on age is under, you can't hit footballer a certain age here because I worried about long term brain injuries.

I have to say, whenever I hurt in the ball.

when I was a boy used, when I look at you, these couple of things I look at, I look at that thing called on, I don't know a single person who has any injuries from the ball. And a can we heads?

I T yeah.

I may. Maybe there is, over time, this something about evidence and this football kids. Good, seven, nine. right? So you can .

increase IT. Well, you can see you can conceive it's not inconceivable that rugby will be played without being able to tackle each other, become touch right .

international level and troy. And so we as our football club, we just said, would not have any participation on sense. If you plan football, you got to learn to win and lose that life.

That said, if you lose, go away, work and and come back and try and win. Very black, a White on this. But I think this is the madness of the world we've got into this is why i'm i'm intreated i'm intreated by reform. I'm going to come back to reform yeah where did conservative go wrong though? Because I know previously you you were conservative .

the yeah yeah all my life until .

twenty ah so I I was all my life. Uh, I think I stopped one election before you, and I just stop voting. I voted since the only reason I voted conservatives.

Ves, so when I was a kid, my d my dad was working class, he was engineer, my mom was a nars, and he, him, my brother, is to have argument over politics. My, my brother is a labor voter. And my dad, I just to say to him, dad, you're working class.

What you conservative, he said, because, uh, I have more my money than the month. 那 不是， it's always kind of voted with him and never left IT. H I have voted is is, I think things around whichever the election that was maybe two thousand, six hundred and seventeen, I feel like they've gone so centre ground y're most little social .

of themselves yeah. So I mean, I think the problem is multifaceted. IT starts in my mind with tony blair.

Major set the ground work for IT. Cause major wasn't rally of the aspirational strong united kingdom. He was A E, U, A eua file. And that plays into IT. 所以 this is my sort of unified theory of everything， which I going to do very, very quickly, right?

We live in a liberal democracy, and liberalism is the championing of the individual, the promotion of the individual democracies, the promotion of the family, the community, the tribe, the country. It's what's good for the majority. Liberalism is what's good for the individual.

And we live in a liberal democracy where liberalism and democracy have been intention. And for a very long time they were in healthy tension. So for example, as a result of our liberal instincts, women were given the vote that we've campaign heavily to bring women onto equal level with men.

Eeta liberalism now is out of control. In the pursuit of the promotion and the protection of the individual, the democratic interests of the majority, the interests of the majority have had to be set aside. Democracy has taken a back seat.

Democracy is now seen as the enemy of the individual and the protection and celebration of the individual. The reason starmer can't define a woman is because he's an over liberal, uber liberal. He thinks if a man wants to identify the woman, he should have the right to do that. It's a bit like that monty pitten sketch from life of brian. I don't know if you ever seen that film.

Have you seen IT? I've seen the film.

which usually where they're sitting in the you're sitting in the color and he says, and I want the right to have a baby and you go, well, you can't have a baby or a man because when I want the right to have a baby OK, you can have the right to have a baby but it's absurdity and they kind of I don't know whether they saw what was coming down the track thirty years later. But nowadays what we've got is this a liberalism out of control.

And the natural end of liberalism without democratic baLance is the imposition of laws that prohibit, for example, the chAllenging of liberalism. So you get free speech being shut down you because you hold democracy slightly in contempt. As a liberal, you want to find mechanisms to dump the democratic interest.

So you sign yourself into international treaties that buying successive parliaments. You sign yourself into international bodies where your ideology is embedded and from which the united kingdom can't easily escape. Like the U.

N. The european union is a classic example. And so democracy has continually had to take a back seat.

And if you're anti democratic, which is where these liberals have got to people like starmen, you don't believe in the united king because the democratic constitutional unit, that is, the united kingdom is essentially that democracy. And you don't like that democracy because you're worry about the individual. You are worry about the promotion and protection of the individual.

And it's because they are so individually oriented that they are also seem blind to their primary obligation, which is to the british citizen. And that's why they don't mind immigration, because they see an immigrant is having identical rights to the british citizen. So our liberal democracy that was in such a good, healthy tension for so many years is now completely out of quilter.

Liberalism has LED to globalization, governance by international institutions, international law, domestic unaccountable organizations. And a complete setting aside of that, we've got a massive democratic deficit. And but do do you believe kiss on .

a really cares about the individual? Or do you think he cares about power and is making the decisions he thinks he needs to mayor to retain power?

Because I think if you're right, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's what I started. But the movement under control, and the movement has now moved to the next stage.

That's why free speech is so difficult, I know. And thank god for channels like yourselves, because the natural enemy of their agenda is free speech. Because free speech, because hand in hand with democracy.

I keep trying to get arrested for for chinese, I can get arrest. I don't know what i've got to say to get arrested without actually crossing my own red lines, but I I do keep trying to get arrested. But yeah, like i'm i'm a huge champion free speech.

I detest hate speech laws. I think they they limit conversation. They restrict conversation. And I think the people who champion a hate specials don't really understand the consequences. I I was in a five year law.

G with, i've tweet ah that somebody was a fraud, who they were a fraud. yeah. I have been through a five year multimillion pound high court lawsuit, which, uh, I lost them one I lost because he then lost the following in tender.

He was a fraud and I could be bankrupt IT. Um but going down that part of liberal laws are important. What we need, a slept loss that protect people like me.

But but I go down that rebel L I saw what happened with the oligos chAllenging the journalist. And I now think we're in a place for germans, are two shit scared to report properly outside of the gardens, who I think of ideologically driven. I think most of them are scared.

But I, I, i'm really concerned about essentially the attacks on liberty. I, I feel, I feel raw. I feel like to like liberty, an ideas that we should protect, the liberty, free speech, free expression on property rights. But we seem a long way from that.

But this is the paradox. It's the liberalism now that is threatening liberty.

I know, is really interesting.

If you follow IT through, you can see how they got to where they are. And this question started as I went on this long explanation. When you are, you know whether the tories go wrong. The tories, in order to gain power from tony blair, had to become, you know, Cameron was the air to blair yeah and he was genuinely the air to blair. Cameron didn't want to change anything.

And so what what he did, instead of being a traditional conservative that you and I might identify with ah he became a modern day conservative, which is I won't change anything, i'll conserve that, which I have that has been that which has been the quiz to me by the breast's government. And and actually they went even further. They embedded IT.

So for example, osborne created the office of budget responsibility, so chances of the extract now can't do freely what they wish. And this government, I don't know if you follow IT in the king speech, stoma is going to make IT a legal requirement for the government to get the blessing of the O, B. R. On budgets. So IT will be an unelected bureaucratic body that effectively controlled fiscal policy in the united kingdom.

Well, there's a reckonin coming. I am finding what's happened in amErica super interesting right now. I went for a position about about seven years ago.

I made a podcast. There was good chaos about Donald trump. 啊。

You, the only a things I know about trumps from the media in the U. K. And I became everyone. The U. K, very critical, was not case.

And then traveling to americans, spent a lot of time there and seeing different media, and independent media and independent infuse. I I start to get a bit more baLance and realized none of this should be a personality contest. That should be a policy contest.

absolutely. And that's where they attacked .

him on his personal SE course. And the typical criticism, the two things they come up where he's a convicted felon and um he's a rapist and so look on the convicted felon, the thirty four felonies. I did my research, I said OK, it's all in that one case where you had a bit in direction with the point he wanted to hide that I understand that you might want to hide that um but that the implication thirty four felonies is that he is a currer criminal is not there was one thing on the rape is a very difficult one as you know. If if he is, he is not, he was he was a civil lawsuit .

as he was sexual .

or level civil also which was tried in a democratic, a democrat state in the democrat with the democrat judge uh, based on personal testimony only i'm not saying he's guilty or innocent, but a man who was subjected to the deep state to C A, the FBI working against him russia hoax assassination attempts. You start to get a little bit suspicious and then in the end I said, look, I don't know, but you got to choice of two candidates which policies are best for amErica since he had exactly .

the same journey ah and so i've just have to say.

look, they say if you're gonna vote, who would would I say i'm going to ignore the the dates and say the policies which are best for america. Well we got somebody wants to dismantle the deep state. He wants to dismantle where he bring rumpole in, uh uh uh potentially uh to help with the the fed he's got the vami thinks the people i've never met R F K who's uh can be working to health tell you get I know these all these role exam as well coming in. And to me, the rhetoric is a government that's going to reduce taxes, uh, reduce the size of the state and .

increase freedom, liberty actually. And that's the shocking thing.

If if R, K, I got the nomination, I think you would want the election democrats could want with our rf. K, yeah. And they didn't.

So so i've looked to that. I think there's a reckoning coming for um the U. K. Um I have a seen the film remember the ending .

the film where after .

the game where his a his own only client， they thought he got injured and I jumped up yeah .

the black guy yeah they're in the .

town of afterwards and he goes and gives him a hug and you got the other guy, the other agent, with his plan. He said, why is in a relationship like that? I just give my heart.

And so kid of, I think that was gonna happen. I think i've got a feeling we are going to start looking across american go. I want to bit that.

Oh, I think we've got no option.

yeah, Peter.

because if they deregulate and cut taxes, I think I mentioned earlier in this interview, they will supercharge their economy. Capital will flow to the us. We will become a rapidly even we're getting poor anyway, where I was really .

bad trajectory.

And yeah, yeah, good idea. And you know where i'm a really bad trajectory. And it's gonna exacerbated with a resurgent, proud, prosperous a on its front for united states of america.

And and the other thing, of course, is we're gonna on protecting us on this. We put our hands on our own back pocket so we Better get used to doing that as well. That's a little different subject.

But let's talk about reform. I don't know enough about reform. Um all I know is if I was forced to vote, I would reform something I serious ly consider.

I also mentioned i've got this like lingering interest in running in its only small amount only because I interviewed with the Marshall chat, amazing guy, we had a great chat and and I said, where what did you're run for this? We want to use the point you are trying to make is that, um sometimes you gonna put your head on the block. If you believe there's a problem, try and go so over.

And so, you know, i've looked at where I live in bed, friend. I think, well, i've got a little bit of influence, a little bit known. Could i've run for office? Well, if I did, who would i've run with? Well, obviously I went run with labor party is another socialist.

I wouldn't b lib dams, potentially conservatives. And reform, my main issue will reform. You understand what I where i'm going this is that, like when I did my interview with nigel and I put up on facebook, lots of people got upset, just got to spoke to.

oh, how interesting .

yeah and if I said I was a campaign and reform, I think some people go, h your racist now are you yeah, do you know want to mean those lingering? please.

People accuse me being a racist. Dad's pakistani, my mothers english born born yeah .

so so you get those, uh, lingering. Uh, cli accusations aren't based on any fact. And so i'm really interested in reform because when I read the manifesto actually alive, I put the manifesto a charge b and I said, give me the summary yeah, but but I read the policies are like, okay, this makes sense.

okay? These people seem to understand economics. They seem to understand british culture.

So what is okay? I ll put you put a different question too. We have election for five years. Can reform actually win the election?

okay. That's a very different question to what is reform? yeah.

Come back to reform. I wanted know if they win. yeah. So the proof of the pudding is going to be obviously in the eating. There are significant chAllenges that reform face at the moment.

The biggest chAllenge, I think, is the democratization of the party, something i've been banging on about this for a while. And ni gel and Richard, I don't think really agree with me. I think they see the democratization of the party, not a necessary first hurdle.

They have talked about IT and they've adopted a constitution. But I don't think you can form a government unless you have a party that is capable of producing really good policies. We got a great policy document, but IT needs a lot more meat on IT, producing really good policies and really first past candidates. And you can only have those two things. If you have a party which itself is democratic and where people's voices can be properly heard, and that can be promoted up to the leadership in a coherent fashion, and that are checking baLances on the leadership to make sure that they stay true to their own principles o and at the moment, the party is owned by nigel. It's fifteen shares, nine of which are owned by nigel, five by Richard, one by one other guys, a private limited company.

I didn't even realize a party would be a private.

so was set up for expediency is the best of party when we were fighting the uro elections. But the party structure hasn't yet changed. Neidl has said that he will change IT and he will make IT open to membership.

But you know, every all members in the party would then own the company, which he says he's going to change from one being limited by shares to limited by guarantee. You can't actually do that legally OK. I don't know how he's going to achieve IT, but that's one critical chAllenge.

And I know you can't wake up in may twenty twenty nine to headlines in the paper saying reform U K. Wins the election night. Al farah Jones, the government, do you know? I mean, it's look so you've got to have a democratization.

So sorry, IT to be a bit typical and boring on IT, but that's a critical pre represented as well as i'm concerned. I'm concerned that, for example, we don't have a clear shadow cabinet already six months after that fantastic general election in which we broke that glass ceiling where we could never get seat, we got five nps. We should now have a shadow cabinet with speakers across each discipline expert in their areas promoting these people so that when we come to twenty twenty nine, we've got already some something look and feels like a government. That's another chAllenge and there's what nice all calls the professionalized of the party.

Here we go.

Yeah so that is that the election results we're looking at.

So I mean, the election .

results .

were just to talk about the election. Five seat yeah, little telecare s got tubs and they got seventy four, seventy, seventy two, six ah, yeah, yeah. Ah naturally, there's an incentive to believe in proportional representation.

and that's the mistake.

Yes, because the weak government.

you will never get your agenda. I mean, you and I agree on one thing in space, and that is this country needs a complete change of direction. If you go for P, R, you will never get a complete change of direction.

And this is another thing where nigel and Richard are not quite ideologically sensible in my, because what they stand for is in is in opposite direction to where the conservative party is, at least at the moment, and where the labor party is. And they will not be able to save the nation if they have P. R, because they'll have to make a deal with the labor party.

or Victory will be coalitions and compromises .

like we have A R europe. absolutely. And you never save the day. You never. We don't need reform in this country as much as we need restoration. What we need is to get rid of the O, B R, get rid of outcome, get rid of these international treaties, ditch the ec, H, R, get rid of the human rights act, wind back all that state intervention and the fetters on our freedom that you were referring to, wind that back. We need to restore ourselves back to the system we were. And I think it's a false step to reform and get rid of institutions that took hundreds of years to create, know pr would be such a massive change from where we are as a country. And the only way Maggie was able to save the country in the ninety eighties was because he had a strong majority where he could deliver.

So uh uh and I think .

by the way, reform can win under, uh, even though those nuts suggest P R is is a mass for reform. Reform can and should win on the first past the post, we came second in nineteen eight seats, we ve got four million votes. When people were saying a vote for reform is a wasted vote.

A vote for reform was split, the so called rightwing vote. And people took note of that people didn't vote for us because of what was being said. That won't wash again.

Are you with me? IT won't wash again. People, they'll be millions of people.

The turnout for boris Johnson was sixty seven and a half percent in twenty twenty that election. This election was fifty nine and a half percent. Seven percent of people didn't vote.

Over four million people didn't vote. Not because they're pathetic, but because they're deponed. They voted for brains. They didn't get IT.

They voted for trees, a man and two and seventeen hoping SHE delivered brakes IT SHE didn't do IT. They they voted for paris Johnson to deliver a brake. Actually, he didn't do IT and people are pissed off yeah and that's why they're sitting at home.

They're not apathetic. To call the voter apathetic is to underestimate the british voter. They are really upset because they don't see any hope. Now reform Carries those homes. Reform, I think, has changed political engagement because it's got five.

The chAllenge now is for nigel and Richard to create a really first class party with fantastic candidates in the shadow cabinet, fantastic candidates standing as M, P, S. Build their ground. Work that we hadn't talked about, the brand structure they're creating, but get councilors right across the country. If they can do that, they could form the next government.

What's interesting is that every person I know in U. K. Whose liberty minded, free speech minded, property rights minded is a reform vote and every single person I know you got 不知道 everyone but majority who have uh liberty in their roots uh beliefs in uh uh the reform party。

They are obviously I would labor but have lost faith in conservatives uh because they don't see any change the same with cammy, I think camie is just more of the same. Yeah I just ah it's nothing interest there. So my then my chAllenge is is how does reform become unacceptable vote because IT still IT still treated as like some kind of rightwing ngl verge.

You break a destroy, the country is still got any kind of linger and think this. I met you, I I would say to them. But though I didn't you agree this, I would say to people, uh, there's not drawn this for age of camera.

I've SAT down in nigel, and I think he's an incredibly small, intelligent, a principal person. But when you get on a camera, you get for age, which is more for character, and which he's selling something. But I kind of wish everyone could meet nigel.

yeah. So I mean, nigel is an instance, character and. You know, we did something magical in twenty nineteen with the brazed party. We managed to create a political party in two seconds flat night will did.

But IT wasn't toxic in the way that you kept became slightly toxic, you know, a kind of, as you say, right wings and a phobic, racist, ba ba brazza party cut across all of the united kingdom in terms of where people came from their backgrounds, where they worked with the public sector, private sector, eeta, but also political persuasions. You know, we had clear fox who was reformed, communist, revolutionary and clear. And I I mean, we hold very different views on many different subjects, but we agreed in the liberty of the united kingdom, which was this, uh, which was a great party.

And then you have people like me who are much more institutional to look and behave, you know, to interact with. So, and we, and we detoxified politics for that short period of time that we existed. Ni ell's chAllenge is to detoxified.

And one of the things I think he needs to do is to stop. And he refers to himself as being sent right right wing. It's not a about right wing or left wing anymore.

Some of the policies, many of the policies reform has actually fisa ally, quite left wing. We would protect the british economy. We would roll back from international unfetter, international free trade.

We protect our steel industry, for example. You know um it's not bad, right wing and left wing. And this comes back to what is reform reform remember I talk about liberalism, democracy.

Reform stands for the democratic unit, the constitutional economic and cultural unit, that is the united kingdom. We are for the borders that create the united kingdom of great britain, northern island. We want laws to be made here, not made by some foreign body or by some international treaty.

Know which matters us. We want policies made solely for the british interest. And yes, foreign we do have. Uh, we do need to be present on the foreign stage.

We do need to, uh, CoOperate with other countries, but all our foreign interventions, military or otherwise, all our interactions with other countries, all our co Operation must be done firmly with british interest in mind, not with their interest. You know, we will CoOperate. But we've gotten make sure we're looking after our own.

And that hasn't happened for a long, long time in british politics, not since arguably since Maggie, Frankly. And and that's where reform is. And that's the message we need to get across that we're not right wing. We just stand for the unique dom. These people don't.

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He's gone into a country which was ravage by corruption, corrus judges, corp. Politicians, four crop presidents in a row. And and and he said, are not left or right.

This is an outdated model. IT is an outdated model, he said. I'm based on what is the right decision on the right policy in the right principles.

And he's taken that country from having the as a murder capital of the world at one point. Now i've got the lowest murder rate in the western hemisphere economics going. His biton positions turned out to be a smart one. Yeah, but you know, he's changed that country. And I just think that the problem with the left right divide we have in this country is like foobar takes you, you kind of find, you kind of observe people. He said, bright, every, if you are a conservative, devote every mistake they make, you defend and everything labor do, tell you attack and invoice, first of my own to be, take cruise once and I said him named one thing you think the democrats do well, kind won't give an answer and I think that's the problem yeah because realistically is not in naive as is is I said this, Steve is totally nave without reform. I don't mean reform of your party without political reform yeah clever name because you force me to say.

yeah ah people always time to say.

I think the sovereign crisis happens under a labor or coalition government. I think either way, absolutely I I, I believe happens. And so if I was camie, I would sit down and care.

And I say, these are the economic facts. The change needs to happen. And if if changes, if we don't do with the change, we're going to bank rut our country.

And so i'm going to work with you and i'm going to support you. If you do economic forms, i'll support you and I won't chAllenge you and will back you. Otherwise we going to destroy this country. I know that's naive. I know you .

say it's naive. Why the hell is IT naive? Why the hell aren't our parliamentarian getting together and trying to govern the country for the .

Better of the country? I T cept.

yeah. And you know, i've it's been a journey for me. I haven't had a damasked conversion of any sort because i've always been right wing yeah but it's been a journey for me from two thousand nine hundred and eight politics and I to realize really how antipathetic those that we elect are to the obligations that they have.

They get into parliament. They're not representing the people. The the vote of brags IT wasn't just a vote to leave the eu.

The vote for brakes. That was a cry from the british people to start looking after the british people. Yes, that's what IT was because we got a parliament that doesn't do IT. And just without without wishing to boy you rigid on this, but you know, we look at the tory party, we described them as right and labor to describing them as left wing. But actually they are both two sides of the same .

coin and .

and it's because they believe in this social contract delivered through international laws, international institutions, domestic quangos, unaccountable bodies. They believe in all of that. So it's not about left and right.

It's about, do you believe in the united kingdom? Do you believe in the culture? Do you believe in the history? Are you proud of this country?

Do you want to be british? Do you want to protect those qualities and values and culture and everything else that allowed you to get to where you are? Do you care about that?

If you care about that, then you got got to change direction. If you don't care about IT, you want to be part of some global order governance from brushes or whatever IT comes from. Fine, give up on the .

united condom. Well, the truth is i'm free from IT. I've managed to liberate myself from that.

Um what I know now is I but what I believe is we don't have a culture of liberty of freedom in this country. I've seen IT in the U S. right.

We don't have a cultural liberty. We don't we don't really have a culture of free speech. We have a culture where we've accepted the banks track every transaction we make uh, the the the the the the government can track every phone call.

We make basic. We fully tracked in everything everything we do, uh, we have a dying currency and less opportunity. And I look at my kids ago, I know more opportunity will come from liberty, freedom, property rights, just the absolute basis of liberty. So how do we get towards that? And so I look at, I look at labor, and I look at people who voted for labor.

I think, how do I get you to a point where you where you understand your theoretical framework is wrong, to get you to a point where you know you need to move away from social ideas, which which themselves are dangerous? Because that will get you to where you want, which is more opportunity and more fairness. And then I look a conservative voters, and I think how far wrong have you know? What turn did you take? What rock turn did you take to accept this current in contain of a conservative party, which is you know is is slightly center, right? So how do we get people to a point of rationality where where they actually making rational decisions, which benefit body?

I think the vast majority of people, A A laboring small l, laboring under the illusion that the labor party stands for the workers and the conservatives stands for private enterprise because it's a brand. Neither neither are true and the brand is not true to what they're doing. And but the vast majority people are voting the way they're voting because that's how they voted for, you know, all their lives.

And so what is remarkable is that reform built a bridge head that we made that impact. And now I know what I say to Richard and night, and I say publicly, is that the people are not obliged to reform those who voted for us. The reform leadership have created open aspiration that hope and aspiration needs to be treated very seriously by the leadership.

Reform IT must be held in kids gloves, nurtured and protected. Because if we break the people's hopes again, they'll be, they'll come a time where we will see a complete explosion of belief in institutions that governor and then you're into some kind of this stop. An world we've created hope.

We must preserve IT and we must deliver on our promises. I really hope reform stays the distance, stays honest and delivers for the people. Because there's a limit to how much the people can take.

Well, it's going to have any grassroots because um the the the corporate media, state media uh Operates as ever. The country ah I don't think gives reform a fair crack of the way.

No IT has to come through channels like yourself and social media. But you know, we're very good at that reforms been super doing that well.

And I think group at low by .

the fantastic I I A, I an Richard, we all speak well.

Yeah, right. So a grateful for your time. I did couple of things I wanted to get into before we finish is just a little bit of policy stuff to fully understand.

I think the important that that is, which has become a huge issue immigration. Um I know you're not anti immigration. Um i'm a sound of an immigrant and our scheme grant, um I I believe in immigration.

Um I I am a bedroom. We have a massive indian community, massive italian community, master posh community. I've grown only grown up knowing uh uh a multi cultural society.

But at the moment, immigration seems to be a big issue, not just here across europe, in the U. S. Is a big topic. And uh IT feels like a chAllenging subject to deal with.

So me somebody i've been in a 嗯， just before covering, I went out to a immigrant campaign, turkey on the border, when early one was trying to send people into Grace and spoke to people, and there was arranged people. I want to make migrants to those fully aware everything. There's some.

And I believe if I, to get to another country is Better, I would do IT myself. There was a time I wanted to move to amErica that would have made me an immigrant, and I wanted to make my life human instance, of course, but at the same time, I F I think most a be with half of brains or no h the unfetter immigration and issue. So how is this dealt within a way that that brings people, everyone outside to what is the correct a uh, immigration policy for our country?

So the two aspects, I think to immigration broadly, two aspects are ably moti aspect. But broadly to there's the economic aspect and there's a cultural aspect. And I think we've treated both very, very badly. We're haven't seen immigration as a mechanism by which we up the average, if you like, intellectual questioned and educational location in this country.

We've used immigration, as I says, cheap imported labor as a banded for broken domestic labor policies and inability to actually make sure that the british worker gets a fair shake of, you know, what they do are our wages in this country is third of medium wage is thirty three thousand pounds year. The median wage in the us. Is pushing fifty thousand dollars a yeah, you know, which is a significant demand ahead of where we are.

When you take into count, the cost of living is much lower than hours where a poor nation is delivering for our workers. We're not good delivering for our working class. And immigration has been handed LED very, very badly by successive governments in the pursuit of GDP growth.

We have sacrificed gd people capital, and we've got pora as a nation. Then there's a cultural aspect, and we've been very bad at handling the cultural aspect too. And that goes back to this liberalism that I was talking about and the basic approach that we've had to bringing in new cultures to this country is that you're an individual.

You have the right to your beliefs, and we will protect your right to those belief. And we won't impose on you any of our beliefs or our cultural values you can go on doing what IT is that you wish to do. And and we've created, dei, you know what I mean, the first year and inclusion.

And we've given a kind of protected status to ethnic minorities, to minority religious belief, sexual preferences, transgender ideology all comes under this protected status and in the pursuit of the apparent liberal attitude to immigrants, cultures and values. At seta, we've created a multis ilo cultural country where there is no integration. And and we've got to the point now where people, so where what is a british value? You know, you talk about british culture.

There is most thing is bridge culture where there is something. And if you can't think about what, if you can't define what bridge culture is, what I would say is act on our history. Reflect on the people whom we hold or used to at least hold in high regard in a historical context.

Reflect on their legacy. That is, one half of Christian cut of british culture, the other half are a Christian cultural Christian roots. And if we give up on our history and our great figures and the legacy that they've between us, and we give up on our Christian routes, we will seize to be the country that gave us the ability to sit here and have this conversation and try and at this save the country.

And in the pursuit of this liberal utopia, celebrating everyone's culture as if IT is valid as our own, we've hollowed out our own culture. And so economically and culturally, we've handle immigration really badly. We've had far too much immigration.

Actually, no policy would have been able to cope with the rate at which people have been coming into this country. We need to slow IT down dramatically. We need to excel.

And i'm going to speak absolute, we Frankly excel. Anyone who hasn't got a right to be in this country, you're here illegally. You should be deported, the million million people.

And if you can't be deported, you should be detained. You should not be free to go around doing your business. You enter this country illegally. And so we need and these are .

the ideas that scared people. I'm not the saying, i'm not judging, but I was talking .

about legal migration. I think if you if you come here illegally, you are you're guilty of a criminal lack and you mustn't be in in position on the state as a result of that act, whether that in position is economically or culturally. And trumpet is saying the .

same thing .

and you can't be a nation state of the united kingdom if you don't control your borders and you don't have a mechanism by which to say who can come in and who can't come in.

Did you see the and where s name the new border in under trumps administration in his interaction of A O C?

No, I didn't see that.

You've gotta see this. Can you search up A O C border? I think you're probably find the video is is a is congressional hearing, I think is a big sad .

guy you gotten .

this is it's pretty basic, really is basically said, okay here, good IT is someone. Got next on the little sounds. Do you go to left there?

This initially would pursue prosecution of all amenable results, including those presenting with the family. mr. r. Min, your name on this is correct, so you are the oward. You know the after you sign member, yes.

So you provided the official recommendations to secretary, yelled our family for the I gave during those numerous recommendation and how to secure more and saving lives. But IT says here that you get her numerous options with the recommendation. With options 本身 就是 拿 1 options to secure the border and say， lives.

And so the recommendation of the money that you commend, you recommended anything. Which could feel separation. Zero towner's was interpreted as a policy that separate children from arrested may have Young child in a car.

And we also so. separate. We go asides are not charged with any crime. The country is violation, eight days .

called absolutely. Yeah.

good for you.

I mean, I said, I think and that's exactly the point you've just made right now. But I think if you've have read JoNathan heights, write his mind, it's a really great book. IT helps you understand why conservative think one way and liberals think another way.

It's a really interesting, fascinating book. And I think this is this this um within liberals this kind of feeling like what we have to protect these people. They come here for a reason.

And uh I think some people uh confuse authority with authority random, and they uh confuse strong leadership with authoritarian ism. And it's just up trying to have a basic rule life. I feel like there's been A A slip of the basic rule of law in this country to the people who live here.

absolutely. And know you don't raise your child. You have to raise your child with discipline, and you have to run a, uh, H A company with discipline.

I have to run a football team discipline. My manager has to run his players with discipline. I feel like a country needs discipline. And that's something that may be the current liberals that you've discuss .

a structure with yeah I mean, i'd look, i've got no desire for any human being on the planet to suffer just because they're not british. But we are a country. We are the united kingdom of great britain, northern island.

IT is to british citizens that our government must know its obligations. And if there was A A very slow trickle of people somehow getting through our borders because we didn't have a one hundred percent border control, you know, one might tolerate that. But we're not.

We're completely open. Our border force goes to the point of the territories, al waters with france, and doesn't seek to deter people from coming into our territories. Al waters IT picks them up, gives them a life jacket, gives them a cup tee, gives them a kick cat they brought back to.

Sure, they put in a four star hotel. Weddings are cancelled. British citizens who booked up those hotels are thrown out of them. This happened in altering them the other day.

And IT filled with migrants, mostly Young men, illegal migrants, mostly Young men from coming from france, who aren't in danger, who've left their families and children and wise behind. And they've settled in orchard him, a bunch of people of who we know nothing, of whom we have no passports of, no background, nothing. And they're been given, and we spent fifty thousand pounds a year ahead on them.

In total, our annual bill is running at about eight billion pounds a year on the illegal migrants we've got in the country. These people weren't in danger in france. You know how much as friends spend five thousand pound by head parana.

we're spending fifty thousand pants by head parana .

where they live in the ung Kelly, and absolutely. And that's why they wish to come across and and I don't blame them for wishing to come across that their human obligation.

In a sense, we may do the same, yes.

but we may. I would do the same in their shoes, but it's up to the british government to protect british society and promote british society. And i'm not being hard hearted if this policy that A O C was champion or starmen seemingly has no problem with.

If it's taken to its natural conclusion, we will be overrun. We will not survive as a country. And so we've got ta decide whether we care about the united kingdom as a country or not.

And it's as simple as and i'm not being zena's bic or racist or anything. I've got a lots of pakistani friends. I've got pakistani relatives.

I love them. They are great people, you know, and they're great businessman, some of them great doctors. They can come here under a VISA scheme and they can work. But I don't want illegal people coming across the channel and assaulting, effectively assaulting our economy and assaulting a society. And that is not an extreme, is the difficulty .

is is is is I think that girl chAllenge is educating people to the point or help them understand that we have to work to the net benefit the country, otherwise we work to the net detriment. Absolutely is kind of binary. And it's how do you you know, how do you communicate these things? How do you communicate these topics without being seen as you are mean in hearted or mean spirit.

I actually think it's mean spirit to have irrational policies, to have policies that work against the best interest of the country. Because I don't know. I I mean, I love, I love the U.

K, right? I love I living bedford, like, say, a very multicultural. I love come into london, although no nervous these days coming to london.

That's interesting. Yeah.

I just don't wear a watch anymore. I just what we're watch in london and i've not you know this you know erotic um when I was in outside but was in a red zone uh and this was post buki after he changed from his policies I made in a film. I said what's change? He said, so I can use my phone on the street now before I can use my phone on the street because someone to come to status from and recently I just start to think about that. I follow this uh, this account on the comment code is all about london crime yeah and and I kiss keeps in guys on electric by snatching people's fines are thinking IT hh. We've swapped, we've swapped we've essentially we've created the environment where crime proliferate in in london and I just I don't know, I love, I love london.

I love london. I ve but the whole criminal justice .

system broken, or is we got .

no jail house. We got about one hundred thousand jail cells altogether, ten, which are occupied by people from abroad, you know, who should be deported to why why we pay. And they, as IT happens, also cost us over fifty thousand pines by head parana.

That's five hundred million quit just there coranto sitting in our jails, you know. So I just want to give you one more example of this. And it's gonna slightly provocative and IT shouldn't be you.

We spent one hundred years through our liberal democracy for the emancipation of women, and now through our increasingly ridiculously tolerant approach. We accept the nicaro on the nicaro all over the united kingdom, the nick AR. You know what? I mean? The car.

So the new car is not the burker. So that had to toe covering. Now for me that this is not an anti islamic comment and my dads and muslim OK, but there will be many muslims who agree with me too, that the nicaro is the outward expression of the internal repression of a woman. So we've in a pursuit of liberalism and wanting to allow people to practice their own culture, we are allowing to take place the repression of women that we spend one hundred .

old years reversing.

getting rid of. What's the same .

gender ideology is the .

we gender ideology, letting men identifies, women compete, women sports, and going to women lose? I mean, how absurd has this become?

A great argument. Be your transformer and say, no, i'm not myself genistein.

absolutely. That's the right response. I don't want to visit harm on women by going into their loose and effectively mentally, if not physically assaulting them.

I mean, it's it's an awful thing. And this is where we've just gone wrong as a country. We've lost the plot.

And I don't if you've seen Allen Clark civilization, have you seen any of this one thousand nine hundred and sixty? And he's a great artist, an historian, and he's on a brilliant BBC thing back in the sixties. And he discusses, you know, what, symbols of civilization.

And he talks back in the sixties about how rome lost the plot in the late years, the roman empire, where they had these kinds of debates. And he said, you know, it's symptomatic of a society wasn't talking about the united kingdom back in the sixty six. It's symptomatic for society when it's unable to articulate coherent, logical thought that IT is the end of civilization coming to the end of the civilization.

And you know, he saw that in the roman empire. And the other thing he sites, I am diagrams sing sliding, but is really interesting. I went to darm the other day, debated darryn university. If you've been to darm, I they have fantastic cathell ills between ten ninety three and eleven thirty three. I only know the dates because I looked IT up, but it's a building of a magnitude and an impression that we wouldn't even be we wouldn't be able to conceive building in twenty twenty four, and they built this in the 1 century。 And the other thing alan Clark says is if you're not building for the future, you're ceasing to be a civilization too, and we're not building for the future.

Well, I mean, we don't even do that house.

We giving up on our architecture, uh, legacy. We're giving up on our history. We're giving up on our, uh our sense of self belief.

We don't have confidence in nation anymore because we're told our four fathers were slave traders and we should be ashamed of ourselves and our national institutions or benefit from the slave trade and they should all help hang their heads and shape our special will be, who's been in the press recently, has put a billion pounds aside of the eight billion pounds wealth that the church has for reparations. Reparations for slaves who are all dead, and against slave traders who are similarly all that the perpetrators and the victims are all gone. And it's not about genuine reparations, it's about a self flag lation.

It's a about a lack of belief in the united kingdom. And IT algaes part IT all goes back to this, do you want to govern this country? Do you want this country to go on?

Do you want? Do you love this country? If you love this country, get off this nonsense.

All right. Two final things. A cannas policy, I don't know. reforms. Uh, uh, Polly, on this. I had somebody recently, again, Nathan, to discuss kind of policy. We're at a point now where, uh, medical marijuana, you if you have a prescription, you can legally Carry IT and you can legally use IT uh, i've been to america. I've traveled all around amErica and the majority of states now are either decriminalize or legal.

Uh the world is not collapsed um uh uh and so I feels we feel IT feels very archaic to live in a world where marijuana is still illegal. Uh IT enables criminals um but he doesn't stop consumption to use. Nobody cares.

I mean you smell marijuana every five islands.

Yeah nobody cares anymore. Actually IT could be a boom for the country. You could be a economic opportunity. I had to illegally bite for my mother when he was done for cancer, which was ridiculous. Cripes, seven years ago, funny enough, use bitcoin to buy IT on on the dark web. Um and so I just feel like it's is a legacy uh uh uh is a legacy prohibition that seems very outdated uh, right now. Has reform got any policies with regards before .

I answer the I think reform has A. I mean, IT isn't IT bizarre that the world is heading towards the legalization of cannabis, but the outlawing of smoking you tobacco has been i'm just drawn apart, not asking your question. But no, tobacco has been part of the social fabric of society for thousands of years.

And we're moving towards getting rid of stopping that for whatever a good reason that we may or may not have to doing so where we're heading towards the legalization of. I don't know enough about cannabis to venture up an opinion, but what I do think, and I feel this very strongly, as for as long as IT is illegal, as long as IT is illegal, we should be enforcing the law. And if you don't enforce the law, you you give soccer to criminals because they think, well, I can get away with kind of is illegal.

I can I sell IT. I can launder the money quite easily. Well, why didn't I try heroes in and i'll I Better just get a gun to make sure that when i'm pumping my hair and right my trade, i'm armed up.

And before you know, you get a law of society, and this comes back to your criminal justice point earlier, you know, in this country of one hundred serious crimes committed, only seven arrests take place. Only half of those arrest result in a charge. So about three, three and oxen, eighty percent of those who are charged are convicted, but that that stands about two to three percent of the total crime, you know the total criminal activity. We have a virtual morritt um on criminal justice. Yeah we ve we've given up on criminal justice and .

that is a disaster. O K. I look like especially people live in london, I think they would like to see more police, uh a visible presence and um and I think they would probably want to see a bit tough on crime. And we we started to see now used to see these videos in south ann cisco.

People just go into to shops and taking stuff and not given a ship with that now in london, and the test goes near amy and Better now got a big plastic cover in front of the tiles because people just come and jump over to steal and leave. absolutely. And I think this there is I think the economic situation is driven people to that. But I also think there's this kind of a ambivalence towards so the police have effectively legitimized .

what they called petty crime. Yeah, because theyve come up with, you know, language is important. So when they say petty crime is a petty crime, they are basically saying it's fine.

And so the minute you use the word petty crime, you've legalize all of that. And petty crime, by the way, doesn't just go toward shop lifting. If your car is stolen, they regard that as a petty crime.

Yeah.

you, what is taken as a petty crime?

I had a guy, I bought new car reasoning, and some guy drove into me on the first .

day IT rever sorry.

no IT happens. IT wasn't particularly, but his light went into the export and peace. The piece of the light landed in the, so I came out, I took a photo of, and I said to, yeah, I need your insurance details and wouldn't give them.

I said, look, is a crime to drive away. You need to give me insurance details. You just drove off, but a photo of his car had a photo of the number play.

The light was broken. The light was at the anger of my exhaust. And I had the piece of his light that was in my exhaust.

yeah. And I provided this all to the place. They said, we don't have enough evidence.

not going to do not .

I the resources no.

you see what I mean, didn't you? When you allow that to happen? Yeah, pandas boxes open and you are in boldero activity. And when I was, I had a great good fortune going to rugby school, not a million miles .

away from bedford.

And I rubye fifteen and fifty, and we had lots of rules at rugby. You couldn't walk on the grass. You couldn't walk with your hands in your pocket.

You couldn't eat while you were walking sea, sea seta. And I had a debate with a headmaster once when I A senior. So why do you have all these petty rules? Come on, it's one thousand nine hundred eighty three. Seems like an age ago and he said, we have petty rules to make sure you boys don't break the big rules.

Let you go right last one I have to watch you about this um for the ever since I um got among the kind of the treatment uh I ve used to put my money into back in, i've done IT because um first IT was an investment seeking to go up and and then I went down the the economics bbb hole and I realized like if a sovereign t crisis has come in, I want to hold an asset ah that is that that protects my wealth firstly that the banks don't have access to and also kind of protect me from h inflation.

And it's been a really sensible decision for me. It's it's been really good for me um at the same time um I had a phone call from the uh Louise bank around four four years ago with a con when they fone me up and they said we want to ask you about a couple of transactions and I said, yeah which once and they said, uh, this transaction this day what was IT for I said, um to have to tell you they said, no, i've international yeah I said, what this is none your business I don't know who you are. You sound Young.

I'm a forty two year old man after two kids successful businesses. It's not fucking business if you think of to committed a crime, go to the place and have been investigated. Two days later, I got a letter from the noise they close down my bank action that happened three times now yeah.

And so I just have a distrust of the banking system. This is increasing happening. But yes, I mean now I just got targeted as well.

I've a distrust of the banking system um and I ve have a distrust of um the governments um ability to print money in the U K. So bit just been the thing i've wanted to do. Yeah but increasingly, the government has squaze the ability for people to invest in bitcoin.

So give you an example that the exchange I use germany, you to be able to just sign up to an account and just going by big bit on really now they have a question there, which is quite tRicky that you can fail and be refused the ability to invest. Uh, we also have traditional uh, credit investigation and number. The banks are not letting people invest in background.

Yeah, I can download a hundred betting apps and out my money away tomorrow or today. why? I mean, you might have an answer for this, but why do you think the government has been so antibeach? You think they don't understand IT? Or do you think it's because they want to protect the pound?

I think IT goes back to that inherent conflict between democracy and those that wish to deliver their ideology in an antidemocratic way. I mean, the other thing that theyve had waged a war on his cash, yes, you know banks now I don't know. You're aware of this, Peter, my bank. And for fear of being cancelled, I won't tell you the naim m of the bank, but they won't take more than twenty thousand or thirty thousand pounds cash deposits a year. They put a limit on how much cash you can deposit in the can you imagine what a limit how much cash you can deposit in the band?

I think so with loyd every day because I I like cash yeah the reason I saw really great tweet ones that says if you and I have a if you come into my shop and spend fifty pound and you use, uh, cash, I keep fifty pound and if I come to your shop spend fifty pound, you kick fifty pound if we use our bank cars, we gradually pay money to banks, pay money to banks. So I always like cash and we take cash out, uh, every time I will go to the bank can take more than because I want more than the five years out of the cash machine. They'd always asked me what is for and every single time we say coco prostitutes.

yes.

just because I refused to tell you a business.

But i've had exactly the same inquisitions of me. You know, i've, i've, i've got, as I said, pakistani father. He was in a spot, bother someone, alleviated him of all his worldly wealth and left him to die during lockdowns.

So I had to go to pakistan, and I had a lot of travel between pakistan and united kingdom, saving my father effectively and bringing legal actions against these people. And so I had a lot of pakistani kind of interactions. And I was questioned about what, you know, what's going on here? Now i'm looking after my dad.

you know? Yeah, but I just know it's none .

of this increasingly to obit the road. I think they gonna .

try and introduce IT fail. Think that I think fundamentally, I think I don't think they can get the technology. I think once you understand the technology you want to everywhere theyve trade tried IT is failed, failed in nigeria, one we've introduced.

Ed, I mean, china, they get away with that, but it's full auth. Yeah but but I think I will fail. I mean, I would campaign person against.

I would. So I the government .

being in my business.

can you imagine they will tell you you okay, you've got x number of tokens or whatever is um we've got a bit of a housing bubble at the moment. You can't spend any tokens on housing anymore.

It's communism. That's just cool. What IT is IT is communism.

I think we need to get back to a place where the state is much smaller, less in our business and free in us to have as much money of our possible as we have as possible to create business, wealth and prosperity. That's all I want. I don't care of its never gonna labor.

I don't care of its conservative reform. I think we need A A cultural liberty and we need to reduce the influence of the state and raise up the people. That's all.

I completely agree. I completely agree. There's a huge democratic deficit, and you can only restore democracy with freedom of speech, freedom of how you spend your money, how you spend your time, how you make your decisions, the promotion of personal agency, the creation of aspiration, the opportunity for wealth creation, the end of dependency, the end of wealth redistribution. We've got ahead in that direction.

and that should be controversial. bad.

This has been amazing. Thank you. Thank you time very much.

Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for listening. SHE suit.