Bitcoin Alpha #001: Why Wall Street Veterans Are Dumping Bonds And Buying Bitcoin
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The following is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be construed as financial advice. This discussion is a presentation by ten thirty one, the leading institutional investor focused on the bitcoin ecosystem. Ten thirty one has over ten years of experience in bitcoin and has deployed nearly one hundred fifty million dollars into the leading opportunities in the space.

To learn more, visit ten thirty one. That V, C, the coin alpha. Episode one, grant john left the band date off. We've been talking about this for a few weeks now.

This is this is .

a new show, never gonna under the ten thirty one brand right now. We're thinking by weekly every two weeks, we're going to do a check in and dissect the news, some news headlines of the week, maybe a deal or two that have happened recently in try to put forth the case for bitcoin, for the traditional institutional investor, who's wondering what the hell is going on here.

We've been talking about this seems like we're about the head into another bull cycle. And as waves and waves of due entrance come, we want to make sure they're getting the best information, because you gonna have these questions. So i'm going to throw out a giant now, who is the brains behind this podcast, the men making the list of the topics that are going to talk about. And I think for the audience giving a brief and trial how you came to bitcoin, how you came to ten, thirty one, and you are all perspective what we're doing here.

Yeah for sure. As always, marty is far too kind. I do what I can, but these guys of the iraq stars, i'm just just stability to be along for the ride. But my background is for those that will know me in primarily from social finance. So at a college, started investment banking, went to the bayside after a couple years, worked a few hedge funds, including sidel, and along the way, uh, really found in the betwen rabat hole pretty hard. It's a story is becoming more and more common, I think, throughout the world.

I was one example of that had always been of an advocate of and interested in all in economics, the history of vegal standard and kind us uh monetary framework prior to one thousand hundred and seventy one uh when we going to enter this fully um on back fia regime that we ve been in for about the last twenty years and I finally blocked the coin at all, picked for me prety quickly and so fell on that rabbit pretty hard and spend a few years um just being obsessed with the thinking about uh, not a lot else other than byo in outside my daily job and learning a lot from marty here about how that works and kind of equals around IT. And so in summer, kind of twenty twenty one was looking around for ways to invest more in the ecosystem and kind of found these guys are struck up a relationship with them. I saw that they had brought on, uh, two kind of guys from trac finance.

One of them is is on the court who wants A A second and then a matt odell and morty bit to to bridge the the bitcoin gap between social finance and bitcoin. And you know, I knew right a way that this was special group that could do special things. So reached out, struck up a relationship and he was able to come on full time in some or twenty twenty two um and I think over the the last couple years that we've been doing this uh the professors been in the putting it's in a world end.

We've deployed to close to hour fifty million dollars um over two funds and think we just getting started. We've look at everything across the bitcoin ecosystem um technologies, financial services, consumer applications and that that universe as will get into in this podcast is is only expanding. So couldn't be happier with kind of building here. And i'll i'll kick IT over to to grant, who's one of the cofounder ers, to to intact ce himself and give his vision for what we're doing here and why we think this is this so exciting, especially for institutional investors and kind of the broader finance world?

sure. absolutely. And the other thing we should point out about john is he is also the creator and author of the ten thirty one time stand, which in my opinion is is the best bitcoin focus newsletter out there on a regular basis.

And so if you're not a subscriber to that, you should definitely check this out. Was trying to do some polls around noster and social media to see what else is out there that really covers the landscape in a way that the time samp does. And I just think it's unmatched. We do IT every saturday. How long is a bit has been probably over a year.

two years. Yeah, every point.

And there was sort of in part of the inspiration behind this podcast was to cover some of the content that we cover the air as it's everything from, uh, macro oriented stuff to bitcoin specific development activity in our portfolio, which is pretty comprehensive in the bitcoin landscape. But to bring him back to ten thirty one and in my background, I come from traditional finance as well.

I out of college um I went into investment banking similar to john spent a few years doing that on the leverage finance side with credit swiss in both new york and london and then I moved back from london to new york and joined a private equity firm. One of the largest private equity firms globally called cbc capital partners was one of the the early members of their U. S. Team as they were expanding into the U S. And I was with him for about fifteen years doing all sorts of um h industry related investing in large cat private equity.

There's probably not a business model I have not seen in that time frame was locating a at a very large scale the companies that were multibillion dollar and involved in the entire lifecycle of a deal, from sourcing opportunities to evaluating diligences ing them to establishing relationships with the management teams in the companies trying to advocate for becoming long term partners of with them, establishing those partnerships after we made the investment um over you know five teen years um sitting on the board are working with them on value creation plans and then ultimately driving successful investment returns for our underlying investors. And um you know to someone all up, I was just in investor by profession because I love IT. But at the same time for I mean, it's almost going on ten years now that i've been interested in bitcoin first, that was just a IDE hobby that I was doing a long side of a lot of just Angel investing in in technology companies outside of my role, S, T, V, C.

And those two interests of mind, bitcoin and early stage investing really came together when we found some opportunities to invest in companies in the bitcoin ecosystem. Really was just a light bold moment for me because what I was hearing from some of those early companies that we were meeting and when I say we at the time that was a Johnson and kirkwood who is my cousin and another one of the the co founders of ten thirty one um we were hearing from the bitcoin founders that they were very much interested in capital partners that were aligned with them on the importance of bitcoin um how was going to change the world and there really was a scarce y of capital out there um that really fit what they were looking for. And we started investing in some of those opportunities and ultimately rolled out into what became our very first fund focus on supporting the ecosystem.

As john said, we've now raised invested a couple finds um and um are really excited about the momentum that we have. The the premise was just tried to um do the opposite almost of what we had seen in the traditional venture capital world in focus on companies that we thought could make a meaningful impact on the build out of the infrastructure and advances bitcoin adoption globally。 So without all pause and um we can take IT, how we like money is going .

be sure pause because before we jump into the list of topics we have to cover today, I think that would be great to get your perspective, grant, on the difference of underwriting deals for this nation industry that we're playing and with big coin versus what you doubt with that. Cbc, um what's that delle gent process or your boat process in house has changed, moving from different scales of the market of capital allocation.

Well, in many ways, I think that IT is very similar. In fact, I i've argued good in the past that I think just the way that bitcoin is going to really disrupt um the investment landscape is that I think just this world of easy money um is coming to an end.

We have started to see that in general over the last several years just because of the macro o backdrop in the situation that um governments have have been in and the cost of capital changing pretty significantly. But putting that aside, I think bitcoin was already pois to cause that type of disruption. And so I think that the experience of private equity, you can have different flavors of investing.

The one that I was, was most exposed to was just cash flow or into investing where you are uh underwriting an opportunity based on how do you see the the total addressing market um uh companies positioning um within that space and ultimately can IT produce in a sustainable way cash fos through which you can underwrite, drive an investment return over a long year of time. I think that a world that's moving towards bitcoin, that type of underwriting is going to become much more relevant over time than historically. What we've become used to over the last a couple decades or so is this growth at all cost easy money world where there hasn't historically been as much emphasis, at least earlier on, in generating sustainable business models and actually trying to generate profit.

It's you growth hacking and black scaling and all these buzz words to try to scale to billion dollar valuations without over having made a dollar. So I do think that the underwriting process going forward looks a lot like what I used to in private equity. Um and with that um you know we've very much been focused at ten thirty one on what we call sad flow, which is just the equivalent um thinking around cash flow, just the company being able to generate bitcoin dominated profits that they boost their tragic position over time.

Sad flow. It's important and it's it's a concept that the market has become completely detach from over the last two decades. Critically specifically, silken valley back start up set at this growth in all minds, growth at all cost mindset.

And I think that's courter worthy this year is that um none only investing in the companies that we are but bitcoin first. Why does bitcoin exist in this gonna way into our first topic, which is a paper written by the mini apple is fed. Last week that, that highlighted because bitcoin exists, IT is going to make IT harder for governments to run deficits the way they have been for for many decades since we were ripped off the gold standard.

And the bitcoin is changing everything. And despite that fact, despite the fact that biton is approaching at one point four trillion dollar market cap, there are a lot of no sayers out there who really don't understand the profundity ity of bitcoin existing in the marketing competing with these fio currencies. And I think the the mini apple is fed paper that was written just a perfect the personification of the the the the lack of awareness that in comment economists have in this case in regards to the fact that the way they're Operating the monetary system is becoming very clear to people that is that that is not um IT is not working anymore.

Ambit coin provides this alternative to individuals, corporations, governments. And despite the fact there have been many nine years for the first fifteen years and this mini apple is fed paper was beautiful because they essentially admit that bitcoin does have a uh a place in the world. And if IT is successful, they can really perturb the ability for these governments to run deficits. And grand nights joking before we have record here, I think another thing that is hilarious about the papers that is essentially in the coome tric paper that is just filled with economics jargon and calculations that don't really map to reality. So john, what did you think of this paper?

Yeah well, I mean, the best thing about IT to me when I first saw is it's like, you know it's shorting er's money on those it's like so because in is simultaneously useless, you know it's explicitly called in this paper useless equated to useless pieces of paper which is ironic given um the system from which is is the paper is imminent. But so what sound seriously useless and yet so useful and so desirable as to present a constraint for infinite federal deficit rate.

So and you often kind of see this and kind of social finance world, people who have not looked at bitcoin in maybe a little bit, those kind of if they haven't really kind of dragging further, they can kind of simultaneously hold this internally and coherent view that the coin is worthless and you know, it's going to zero and also it's going to get banned, right? So it's hard it's hard to see how you could really kind to reconcile those views at the same time, either it's you know so useful that there would be kind of government action, it's that or it's so useless and beyond discussion that tomorrow is going to go to zero or know in relatively short order on kind of geopolitical time, wine is going to go to zero. So why we even talking about IT IT kind have to be one of the other, you would think.

Uh, so this is echoing that kind of internal um illogic and incoherence in you know just a really a percent and instant ways without that was the first thing that jumped out to me and I think IT really says, you know IT surprisingly says like the quiet part out loud, right? You wouldn't necessarily expect a fed paper to be so kind of intentionally or not self aware about the nature of the system, which is that IT effectively realized on kind of infinite bag holding and captive bag holding of U S. Federal det. Um and if there is is an alternative that is harder, scarcer, permissionless ah decentralize that you can interact with in variety ways um outside of the permission of a third party, another way outside money right effectively know what gold was one hundred two hundred years ago except gold that could be teletext ported and transported speed light um that people would flock to that of that kind of admission and um just awareness that that is necessarily a governor and a constraint on infinite issuance of of new debt to pile onto the system is is actually something that I haven't really seen in in print before from a fed paper or a broader kind of central bank paper. So those of things that stuck out to me that the shooting has money, peace, simultaneous ly useless and worthy of being banned and the fact that kind of implicitly is is admitting that uh the the system only works if if as I can not issue infinite new um you know dead without and and have like a captive audience to to acquire that dead over time.

Yeah yeah I mean, I agree with those points. And what one of the things that I also those interesting was at the same time they were saying that, you know, bitcoin are these useless pieces of paper. They also, they were saying the same thing about dollars as well.

They sort saying government stock in old dollar bills were also useless pieces of paper. So there were some interesting games like that, that they sprinkled in there, uh, I think which are more accurate than maybe some of the things that they were saying about bitcoin. But they also got things about bitcoin, right? Because mean, one of them I think biggest concerns was that IT wasn't a claim on anything you know they deserve said that multiple times that it's not a claim, it's not a liability.

Uh, which is correct, IT is its own bare asset. Um and you know the fact that they want to they're advocating a way to have persistent budget deficit. You know I was starting to go down this line of thinking of a way like what is IT.

Um you know there's a lot of this complicated math formulas when you look in there and I was an engineer and college and I minor in math and even some of that I was just like you can't you can't simplify the economy down to an equation and consumer behavior, you cannot simplify IT down to an equation. But at the end of the day, I think what IT boils down to is this top down central planning control. They think that if they can run persistent government deficits, then they're able to relocate resources in a way that they wish. They don't think that individuals have the ability or can stomach the responsibility of doing that themselves that IT needs to be government controlled .

yeah this is despite an an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary, the government I think it's pretty clear at this point. That's why I think this selection is as have vitriolic contentious as IT is as because we're we're at this crosser is particularly america, where seemed like the government has been overbearing in many facts of our lives and people are clAmbering for somebody to come in and make the government smaller.

I mean, explicated, at last couple weeks of the run up to the election, trump basically putting fourth the whole new tax policy, which is hysteria fs floating, eliminating the income tax and a bunch of other measures that would get the economy to me, the government out of the economy and um I mean part of that tax policy, high terrorist, low income tax, implicitly um eludes to the fact that you're not to cut a bunch of government spending, cut a bunch of government programs to make sure that you can do that in a way in which you don't restock inflation and have inflation running particularly hot. Because if you going to do that tax policy, you're going to need to um cut spending. If not, if all else held equal, you raise tariffs and lower the income tax.

That is going to be pretty inflationary for the economy. But going back to the mini apples fed paper in whether I mean, the conclusion basically says if we are allowed to make bitcoin legal for particular use cases and leverage the asset, you can have budget deficits run hot in a purpuric because we will have the scare asset that that enables that. And so essentially the conclusion is don't let individuals in companies hold this figure out a way to slow IT into uh the government treasury so that we can extend the budget deficits and continue to print these dollars um and issue these treasury ies.

IT is actually pretty easy in the day. So we're going to leverage big coin to run these deficits and expand the monetary base to basing everybody is purchasing power. But the government will be OK um and the fed, whether they want to admitted or not, has become highly criticised than they do have in effect on how people view what the government is doing at any given point time and they can never come out and admit that all always lost even though they may have eluted to IT in this paper.

They can never come out and starkly see that they exist alongside the treasury to make sure that we can continue issuing debt. And that is the other big topic of the last week. One of the big topics of the last week is the fact that you have to um particularly well respected investors who have repeatedly consistently outperform the market over the course many decades, paul tudor Jones and stand drug and Miller come out within days of each other and say that they think inflation is going to run hot because of that they are vary bullish on um scarce assets like gold, bitcoin. Paul tute Jones said he would also have an allocation to the nas dec um and said paul tuto Jones said he wants no bonds stand draken Miller something very similarly but even took IT a degree further which is admitting that were making people aware that twenty percent of his portfolio um within his family office is short bonds and so there you have to a tenured, very respected um traders taking a pretty a pretty contrarian position, particularly within the bond market. John, what what do you think about these two making that statement?

Yeah I mean, IT gets you know to tie back to the last topic IT. IT gets to at the very least I think these three things collectively so the fed paper palette Jones is comments and standard ology comments uh should lead people to ask um what why is IT that bitcoin would be seen as a potential release value or a potential alternative that would be attractive in an environment with uh, no parables grown deficits like the the fed seems to acknowledge that, that is the case and their reaction to that is very different than standard k Millers or paul tiger Jones.

But there's kind of underlying all of that is, is this acknowledged that bitcoin is this useful alternative? And so I would encourage anyone who is kind of looking at this from just a general mac, general micro perspective to kind of if you haven't, can I ask that question, ask that question, why? Why is this something that um a bunch of different parties with different interests are all kind of acknowledging is is a good alternative um in an environment like this?

Um you know I think it's it's not beyond the realm of possibility that there's some book talking of already like fully size trades here by um by both of these guys and and that that's fine. Um but I think you know whether I don't know where they are on the lifecycle of of these trades. And now that this seems to be kind of the consensus for you in a certain corner of of twitter, maybe the ten years about to roll over again.

But and the arguments that they're making are are pretty difficult to kind of counter just looking at the reality of the fiscal situation. There's there's there's some um kind of pundits out there who might argue and have argued in over the last few years as this kind of thinking in this kind of argument has gained steam among you know people like Paula Jones and and send drug Miller. You know the counter argument has been well know all we really need to do.

We're not that far g gone. We still have you know, the reserve currency and we're still the issue of the worlds reserve currency. Everything runs on dollar rails and is dependent on the dollar.

And so all we need to do is just get fiscal house in order. We need to get tax rates up and and cut spending. And here, here's the math on if we're just responsible about IT, here's here's how we can get know budget surplus or kind of a neutral budget by x year.

And I think you know what that that argument is, is kind of missing is just there's no practical way that what whether the math there, if they works or not, there's no practical way to get marginal tax rates up to you know levels that we saw in like the ties and fifties and sixties without with a border line revolt um and know from from across different segments of different economic interests. We we're talking we're talking ninety percent plus going to top marginal rates and that's uh not going it's going be popular um and in a system like IT or not, that really optimizes for kind of four year election outcomes and that's kind of how we gotten into into this place. And so um that's one element.

And you know it's also worth remembering that uh on on the the spending side, even outside of um the budget deficits that were on go over a year, even outside of the the stated federal debt that we have thirty five, thirty six trillion and whatever IT whatever IT is in going out of parabolic month, even outside of that the the unfunded liabilities that we have for future generations for society and and medicare are multiple of that, right? And so that's that's a done problem that um still needs to be addressed even if you could get you jack up marginal tax rates to crazy level eighty, even if you could get really aggressive on on the fiscal side um neither which would be popular and both of which would also tend to push the U. S.

Further into something looks more like a recession. See you kind of got this doom loop where you know does that then collapse, tax recedes and you actually have exacerbated the deficit problem. So um IT is whether you know uh some resolution of this comes to ahead this year, five years and now ten years now whether political Jones and and duncan Miller have their trades fully size and their they're using you know people on twitter as exit liquidity. The fundamental argument is is not is very difficult to dispute and I think it's even worse than what paul Jones is kind of um stipulates in in that video that's been going around of of him making this case.

And so um you know I I think that's just something that uh everyone needs to be be thinking about um and I think that the only way as as he says to um to get out of of this this problem without significant fiscal and tax pain that is both going to be very unpopular and potentially runs the risk of just you know fanning the flames and making making the fireworks is fueling nominal growth right um through looser monetary an disco policy the by product of which would then likely be more inflation um that's very likely going to be I think in all of our of you the path that gets chosen um yet basically uh socializes this problem on to the holders of of the currency, both both domestic and foreign and in a system that optimizes again for kind of four year election outcomes. Uh, unfortunately, I think that's probably going to be and I think these guys would tend to agree based on their trades um where we where we end up going. So that's the that's the long term path or you know the medium term path at least for for the bond market and um assets that are not scared and they are not hard and on the subside, that's why you would want a significant, we think, allocation to the coin and companies that are leveraging bitcoin different .

ways in and stacking in on baLance sheet. Yeah, it's. That's with all that mine too. Like thinking about P, T, J, stand rock biller when they are saying bakin is tagged bitcoin, the s and obviously what we're involved in, we're here because we believe bitcoin is an important tool to counteract these forces that exist within the incumbent central banking system and over a system filled with over blooded governments that are drunk on spending.

But we've view this as an asset, I think, pivoting the conversation toward what we're here to do, which is the asset sits below everything we do, P, T, J. And drug and Miller, when they're talking about bitcoin, they are thinking about bitcoin in regards to be being very scarce at twenty one million. I want to allocate to that um to make sure I hedged against inflation or and just allocated to an asset that is completely uncorrelated anything going on in bond markets or public equities.

But the the business that we're involved in is is understanding lab of that, which is the companies that are enabling individuals, other companies, governments to on board to bitcoin. I think that is an area that we would all agree is severely overlooked, not only by people that um have identified bitcoin as an asset they want to have exposure to, but even the people that have number one identified that and then two identified that maybe having um exposure to the infrastructure around bitcoin have missed as well. Because most of the capital that has been raised has been deployed towards the broader cyp to I go system.

There's a lot of people we have seen what bit has brought to the world. They think it's my space, uh, and they've raised a bunch of money and allocated towards uh alternative cyp to currencies and the infrastructure around those. Um and we exist in the lane that is exclusively focused on big coin in the infrastructure around IT. So grand throwing to you, diving deeper into what we do in how our focus is differentiated from most of the venture capital or investment platforms focused on this space and what most people here, the space they think bitcoin in broadcast ypo.

Yeah, I think it's just it's it's such a surprising phenomenon that there hasn't been that much capital pursuing, you know basically the strategy that we are that haven't connected the dots that you hear these you know these great investors poll, twitter, Jones, junker, Miller. You see the conclusions that are coming out from these government papers, not just the mini up was fed the one that the E, C, B came out of europe.

Basically, everyone saying all paths are sort of pointing to bitcoin to some degree, and not many people have connected the darts that are right. Well, there seems to be this long term secular growth, this likelihood of continued adoption of the asset. What does that necessarily imply more people are entering the market to get access to the asset? Then IT implies that there are going to be providers that make IT easier for them to do so, that make IT easier for individuals, for institutions, even governments, to acquire acquire bitcoin, to hold bitcoin, to use IT in different ways.

Like what we basically say is the enabling infrastructure, the companies that build the enabling technology. And that's what we are one hundred percent focused on or not. We haven't looked at anything but bitcoin and money. To your point, most of the capital that latched onto this this trend of crypto currency has looked for the next to bit coin um and you know sort of either follow a um your hedge fund type of trading strategy, get early access to tokens that they hope to appreciate very much a sort of speculation play, some of them being venture oriented strategies as well.

But our focus has just been on where are the companies that are gone to build this enabling infrastructure, how do we get access to the equity of those companies and how do we help support the growth of um of the ecosystem in general. That makes IT easier for or um users of all types to enter the industry um and ultimately that's what that's what we want to see is um IT be easier for people to be able to acquire the coin hold to use IT. Yeah I think, grant.

that hit done something that I think is worth thinking about as well as as anyone you know, looks at the space, know everything we talked about the for the first twenty minutes related you know primarily to of a defensive posture right at the prior system as a lot of issues that all don't have any easy solutions and you know these programs have been set up such that very difficult for um subsequent generations of politicians to you modify them you know once they are in the place, sub kind of explicit know the the idea behind social security for example.

And so you need some sort of like defensive answer to that for your portfolio. And that's all very, very true. But I think what you're saying that gets us so excited is so that's that's a huge kind of kick start motivator for the space.

But also we see you know opportunities for the quin to also be very offensive and there and have IT has the secular growth characteristics of okay, well, that's if this is the case, right? If um if bitcoin is a superior story value in a world that increasingly desperately needs that, what's the application of that? Well that means that the worlds you know billion people are in some way going to need and going to want to get access to IT and then to probably redenominate more and more of the economic activity in IT and lever its pRogeria ability and its need of features in different ways.

And all IT is to say if if the coin is is Better money than it's going to touch. Literally every economic interaction is essentially around around the world, right? There's no version of commerce at any kind of scale that doesn't require and leverage money.

And so if if bitcoin is is becoming over time, not tomorrow, not next year, but over decades, becoming the world's chosen, um then that is outside of kind of the defensive characteristics, a massive secular growth opportunity that so few investors are really talking about right now. And the early evidence you or for that to your point, is the mismatch between capital deployed into a kind of the broader critter space. We estimate that our latest severs for that are probably north of twenty five billion.

This point may be much more now. And you know, by contrast, we we've seen two hundred fifty million, five hundred million maybe deployed into uh, the bitcoin ecosystem for technologies that are building out that inflections that is is already seeing and is just going to save much more demand over time as these these natural effects kind of take place. And so it's it's not just a defensive story.

It's a great story and it's it's a great story that is one hundred to one right now kind of out machin's capital raising h toward projects that are not onna benefit from that same kind of tail in the same kind of dynamic because there's going to be one money that people want to hold. And that's where the time is. That's where the opportunity is.

And so all that is just to say that is defensive. Yeah, we're responding to kind of microtron that that might be you frightening or worrisome. But at the same time, it's not just know he gets inflation strategy. It's it's a pursue a massive growth strategy as well that a wanted people are not .

working up to yet. Yeah and if you if you want to deep dive on this, a talking john's book here, john wrote a great essay called bickle in is eating the world, which kind goes comprehensively into this. It's tinder won out V C, splash insides slash term.

And I think like one of the things that we say is that you meet a lot of people who are bullish on bitcoin and its potential Price appreciation over in various links. And what we say is, well, if you think bitcoin is going up to a million dollars, ten million dollars, whatever your Price target is, it's not going to just do that on its own. It's going to do that because of the companies that are building this infrastructure. They not only will benefit from the continued growth and adoption, but they will actually enable IT.

Yeah that I mean. Having been in this for eleven years, seen again in a twenty thirteen. So I saw that cycle building up like twelve hundred, subsequently falling down to one hundred and fifty.

Between one hundred and fifty and two hundred dollars ran up to seventeen k, down to three thousand, up to six decay, down to fifteen. And where we are today approaching seventy thousand dollars leading up to the election. And across that period of time, there been different waves of crypto fervors, if you will.

The beginning you had essentially very simple schemes ah we're onna, increase bitcoin supply by four exit, cut down its block time to one forth light coin. And you had proper state coins, I was like to twenty thirteen thousand and fourteen fifteen ara. And then theoria, launching in the Taylor of that era, really introduced initial coin offerings in the new fast forward, uh, to the last cycle on your defi projects.

And now today we have mean coins and throughout time. And that's why I want to pull up the short log and you can pull IT up. But I think it's been interesting. This is not my favorite metric because I can uh, noise can easily be introduced and says metrics are between dominance level.

And I think this is really interesting, particularly for where we are right now, that despite the fact that you've had these waves and you have thousands more coins entering the total supply, bitcoin dominance as a stance today for the last year plus two years has has been climbing. And I think this is a product of the market becoming more aware than that. Bitcoin is where the signals that I think we do have, uh, at least a few hours cycles for people to really shake out the idea that um these gypt al currencies can compete with big wings.

That's what I think the market is learning historical people have viewed bitcoin in the outcoached have come in its wake as tech innovations, which to be a degree, they certainly are mean bacon is a distributed technology project is certainly in innovation. What the totally released was a breakthrough um that did not exist before he had published on the code. But people over index the tech side of IT really think of what we're witnessing as tech innovation when really we were witnessing, and john eloquently described earlier as a monetary revolution of monetary advancement.

And as the market becomes more aware that this is a monetary competition in beco in has the best monetary properties and will win out in the long run, I think despite the fact that thousands of new coins are being released near and year out and I think now daily due to the ease with which people can spin up meme coins. I'm not trophy y guys caught IT but the no one woman who is famous for walking and telling me the world about the bet he is gonna on particular sports games, the sonic community create a in coin with her lightness. And within days that pumped SHE started talking about, IT had dumped. And SHE feels like her career hasn't ruined little tent there, but indicative of the ease with which these old coins can be spin up today. And I think the market is going to realize that the bitcoin is what really stands out that is realize and I guess that it's into the broader question of what do you guys think um from our seat being focused on bitcoin, the the market of generalist cryin pt of VC versus our strategy going to look like over the next three, five.

ten years? Yeah I mean, you you set IT really well. I I really like that point.

Um just a development for for one second uh because one of the typical kind of early stage, one of one level objections that you hear again from people who are kind of first doing their home or her bitcoin is, well, you know, why can't IT be copied right? Like why can't the codes open source? Why can't I fork IT make my own? And now i've got general coin or Martin coin or or grant coin.

And the answer is you can. And they have you. Let's been done thousands of times and and you know tens of thousands of times and added accelerating peace and even and the economic value of growing to any of those is boring. Zero in bitcoin terms.

Meanwhile, despite constant copying and constant attempts to um often with with great Operating budgets you know behind them of new coins coming out and marketing themselves as bitcoin, two point over the the bitcoin killer, often backed by Martin point, large kind of crypt o vcs or even just generous vcs um bitcoin sitting at at one point for child army market cap. It's being discussed as a strategy grocery of asset. Uh it's it's being owned in size by large uh investors who are looking to hedge themselves or are looking to get um exposure to the secular grow story, whatever the case may be.

And virtually everything else has has trended to zero in back in terms and the things that that haven't are on their way um more less. And so you know, I think it's it's it's good for people to as are considering the space as are considering giving a toan allocating whether that's to bitcoin itself versus other coins or a bitcoin fund versus cyp to funds. The economic mass has gone only one way for the last fifteen years of bitcoin in's existence despite of being open source and leader list and having no marketing budget behind IT. And so to me, that's what your highlighting is kind of the ultimate answer to.

Well, why can't IT be copied and know why? Why should I think that has any durability relative to some new competition that, that could come around um over a longer time horizon? And the longer that this continues, the longer bitcoin continue to maintain and grow the economic mass, the bigger its network effect gets, the more people come on to the network and and hold IT as a long term store value and as as their monetary asset, the harder and hearts gets for any competitor to to come on to the scene and and disrupt that since money is ultimately a network good.

And so I think it's your bear's repeating and and bears understanding by anyone who is looking at the space and to your point on bitcoin vcs or script VC, you know ask yourself where kind of a long term ten, twenty years economic value is actually going to build up and a crew um and so I think to that point, to get back your reasonable question and grant, you can open here too. But I think more and more a crypto VC is likely to um you ray, smaller funds not persist as long you've got a lot of funds that have been raised over last five years, five teen years, they'll have to kind of stick IT out for kind of as long as of the fun duration, fun life. Um but I don't personally see us getting back to anything like the the highs that we saw a brought cropt O B C in the twenty, twenty, twenty one cycle.

Um and I think more and more of broad general crypt VC will look at bitcoin what's being built on IT and specifically, most interestingly, I think what you might call the financialization of bitcoin, but I think what we call internally like the bitcoin ization of finance, bitcoin getting inserted more and more into um traditional capital markets. The five hundred trillion dollars of capital markets are out there are these these deeper liquid pools that many which have no access yet uh to bitcoin but over time can be made to leverage bacon in different ways. To me that seems like where um you know most people will ultimately have to run if they they want to build up strategies of in the space. So it's uh personally short crypto o and crypto VC and long bitcoin bitcoin VC is is of me my answer to that?

Well said. I mean, I think I agree with all that. I think the chAllenges if we think that some of these just crypto oriented strategies have been temporary in nature, like how do you how do you predict the death of that or like the the timing of the necessary pivot that they have to make, I don't know.

Um it's hard to argue with the fact that some of these firms have made tremendous amount of money, but IT comes with a tremendous amount of risk because I look at IT is very much you know like a year, some play like they there's there's early allocations to crypto tokens. If they're able the time or right and dump IT on you know the next investor, which has often been retail, then they're winning, but someone else eventually is losing. You're playing with a very risky a strategy there on top of the fact that, you know, the radio tory landscape, I think, will become even more chAllenging for going down that path.

But I find IT hard to predict. Like win this, you know, crazy, more speculative driven strategies actually makes a shift because I do think in part is somewhat a flaw of human nature. Um but the interesting thing like where I think there is some signal is you can talk to people who are um you know not as far on the into the spectrum as we are about um an exclusive focus on big coin, some that are more agnostic or open minded to you know other you know other cyp projects.

And I would say there's generally unanimous ous consensus that bitcoin is not going away, that they believe you know they might have a specific view on on another token, but there's a general unanimous belief that bitcoin is here to stay. And most people also agree that we are still really early in terms of the adoption of big coin. I don't know what that is, is one percent is the last. It's somewhere in that order of magical ude. And if that's the case, undoubtedly we are in the very early stages of a growth market.

And like the way that I sort apply some of my prior history, you know when we were when I was at cbc, know we did a lot of um diligence work with pain on the just consulting side who would do commercial diligence? We do industry diligence um and we you know we don't underwrite different markets and try to come up with a view for each company industry that we are looking at what is the long term secular growth at this market? And bain had a really interesting set up.

You know this wasn't being capital private equity IT, wasn't being ventures the venture capital ARM music consulting ARM, but they had the ability to to invest with other private equity sponsors, which they would do on a very select basis. And they had segregated fund that was available to do that. And over time, they were collecting a ton of data on what were the real drivers of fund performance and out performance at leads across the cover story.

They did. And I remember at the time they had made something like one hundred, one hundred and fifty co investments and then done a deep statistic. And alison, what are the factors that really drive performance? And interesting ly enough um there are a number of factors that they basically concluded had no correlation to return.

In some of them were pretty surprising, and one of them was just having market leadership. So you're investing in an industry in investing in the company leader of that space that actually didn't have any correlation to return. They also said that cost reduction.

So investing in a company and then driving significant cost reduction, which is a strategy that a lot of private equity employee had no correlation return. And then the other one was having a low entry month or a low entry Price, uh which um interestingly also they concluded did not have correlation to return. The most important factors to return, they found what they called their home run success factors.

One was investing in a growth market. Are you picking a market that actually has growth? That's the most important factor for driving a whole run investment. The second one is the possibility of there being a strategic exit.

Are you investing in a company that has the potential to cell to a strategic acquire? And then the third one, and this one is probably not too surprising, but it's the management team. So some of those sound quite obvious, some of them maybe are surprising. But I think the way that you apply them to the space is that there seems to be consensus that we are in the very early stages of a growth market in bitcoin in bitcoin adoption, which we believe implies further growth of bitcoin infrastructure. Um and that's the most important factor, according at least these antidotes that I got out of interacting with pain back in the day. And we think from a strategic exit point of view, a lot of the companies were investing in are effectively going to become a potential target from a lot of the income of players that are going to be forced to adapt to adapt to a world that is increasingly moving towards a big coin.

Yeah reminds me of one of my favorite um buffet quotes and I was um I know that a lot of people like because in community don't have IT a lot of love for for buffton and monger given they weren't to huge fans to say the least of bitcoin which personally breaks my heart to someone who learned a lot from them but not everyone could be right all the time um but one of my favorite quotes uh is you know doesn't matter how hard you know IT matters which book you eat in and I think when people are over the next decade, two decades, both individuals and and institutions and enterprises of sizing up how and where they want allocate capital, I think that's a question the increasingly be asking themselves and we will need to ask themselves as they look at um you know bitcoin versus everything else. Not just not script to, but literally anything in the world that they can invest in other than bitcoin. Um to your point, you investing in getting in in the boat, the the top boat um you're putting that tail when I back um just as a fortunate lier for uh the the effort that you put in and give you someone from our leverage on any amount of capital investor or or effort you expand.

And I think, marty, to come back to original question, that's that's another way to frame IT is just you can you look at the investment opportunity and kind of ask click do you want to try to pick the the best meme coin fund that is is going to find know the the one the one needle in his stack in one of ten thousand that and give you a ten thousand eggs in and three months while basically everything else kind of in that in that market goes to zero or do you want to invest behind um this emerging recent stories value that is monodist from zero to well over trillion dollars in just fifteen years um with recovered the new all time hires from four separate eighty percent drawdowns ninety nine point ninety nine percent time despite being decentralized having no leader transfering trillion of dollars of value permissionless sly around the world in second several year or you know to once every ten minutes um every year and I think ultimately people gonna to ask ourselves that question like which of these is the Better boat to kind of get into broadly to in my capital? And you know again to to bring back our thesis. It's it's pretty apparent us that it's that it's bitcoin in the technologies and find services and products being built .

on top and with IT and and around IT with all that things are getting to the deal we want to to dive in to this week is interesting to the bridge deal stripe acquiring bridge exhume, which is the company focused on missing connecting stable coins, making IT easy for individuals and companies to accept and use stable coins, which is an interesting niche part of the broader cypher market.

Which filly enough seems to be the only product market fit with staying power with them, broadcast p just centrally cogan ized U. S. Dollars, putting them on these centralized blogg chains and having them able to be sent around the world, caught quote permissions lessons with in at low cast in. Despite the fact that we think stable coins certainly have a lot of success and they are growing part of the market. I think long term, they are noise.

Again, as we have described earlier in the show, like the dollar has a systemic problem where the people controlling IT have easily no other option but to ue expanding the monetary base in debating the dollar um which overall erodes purchasing power in the long run, but for the um for for the benefit of the audience and our industry more broadly for being honest with themselves. This was a really interesting deal because as we know last couple of years, not only um the world that we live in a broader VC more generally um M A activity IPO S H been have been lacking and that's what a lot of people been looking for, is what's going to happen. And I think this deal confirms a lot of what you described earlier, grant, is that incumbent are going to be faced with the decision.

Do we build these functionalities into our company? Do we simply buy another company? This already built us, built us for us and this seems to be the case here, a bridge and I think um this deal really shocking and considering that in stripe acquired bridge at a billion dollar valuation in the coin desk I believe released uh in article uh in the aftermath of the acquisition basic highlighting that bridge at the point back acquisition had A R R in the range of ten to fifteen million dollars and said the multiple on the steel is pretty insane and I guess i'll just thrown to youtube is this a good signal for the space that we play in the fact that this activity is going on? And how are you guys reading this deal?

Yeah I can .

go go yeah go so polite.

Um yeah I mean, I guess I just throw out a couple of us no, I think IT to your point, IT is surprising to see uh multiple like this implying anywhere from kind of seventy two hundred dex revenue. Now of course, you're probably looking at if you if you're doing this deal, you're looking at kind of forward numbers and you'd likely have some of of conviction that that's going much higher very quickly.

Um but still, uh, it's we haven't seen uh, a deal this rich in this space, but kind of anything outside of like A I H for the last couple years. And so it's there's just some stay shocks to kind of working at IT, uh, maybe looking place in the show notes. But no, there's there's some good data out there.

Uh, recent data from, I think was galaxy alex thorn, a galaxy kind of highlighting, uh, crypto fund raising broadleaf still kind of way off peak from twenty twenty one. So I I don't really feel or get the sense that kind of broader fund raising in in that space is is really back in the L P S. A kind of shopping at the bit to um to get in.

Perhaps this is a you know ideal that helps race my rows and and bring some more checks but to me it's uh I have a hard time thinking that this portends you know the the beginning of of a massive run again for for brother crp to and um even stable coins in general. Um certainly possible. It's it's not our it's not our lane.

exactly. So happy to potentially be wrong on that, but I think it's worth to be delving into as well like um and grand I can dig to you and we can talk about from there. But um took money to your point, that stable points have shown kind of the only product market fit the only kind of durability and staying power within broader cyp to out outside a bitcoin. You know worth asking kind of as we look at a deal like this, um what what is kind of the ten, twenty year value of you, a market like this, of a set of products like this? Um i'd certainly have my you my suspicions and my questions on IT maybe crying I can stop monopolizing and you can .

you can jump on on that yeah I mean, I had a lot of the same thoughts. I mean, part of IT for sure I think was um look, this is a really interesting signal of a strategic player wanting to have a strong position and someone who was building interesting tech. And I definitely agree that um there is real product market fit certain parts of the world for stable coins you know has faced at some people in in different parts of the world.

They just can't stomach the volatility of bitcoin currently. So have been fleeing you cheated currencies for a less shady ones and there has been a role for stable coins in that regard in the fact that there is a very significant strategic transactions like this. First, one of the first things my mind went to was you at some point, this will be we'll see similar transactions in the bitcoin world because there will be companies that realize, okay, you know, I need to have a bitcoin strategy or I really want to access a customer base of underlying holders of bitcoin or I want the technology infrastructure so that I can provide bitcoin oriented services to my customers.

And for any of those potential reasons, I do believe there's going na be a lot of these divers build strategies in the bitcoin space. That is not the only. Strategy that we have for delivering successful investments.

I think that me a number of bitcoin companies that remain independent that don't want to sell out to you know your income on legacy players and whatever industry they're Operating with and that they have the potential to become industry leaders in their own right. And I think that they'll be the opportunity for a lot of these companies to pursue public markets. We've seen that with a couple companies in our portfolio.

I think theyll be opportunities for bitcoin companies that establish leadership positions and positive SAT flowing, you know, profitable business models to remain private and pursue a divided oriented model. So I think a lot of that like that was the first thing that I thought as a related to this strategic acquisition. John, to your point is what might this business model, what might this specific. Industry vertical look like in ten or twenty years.

I mean, I I don't know that this is definitely outside of my lane as well, but I started to think that you know in a way, might you see this dynamic that we've seen in developing countries, where some of them leap frog from one technology and fast forward a couple international forward, you know, where we've seen certain parts of the world, you skip your mind, mind phone and you go straight to mobile. Might that also be the case once we see bitcoin adoption really start to take off where um you know the the the technology and the infrastructure around stable coins sort of being the interm step. So I don't know how durable that will be over the long term, but those are a couple thoughts that .

I had around yeah I think you know to that point like I you use this this word of interview or like this idea that this is kind of transitioning of temporary technological hack solving a problem. Um I think that that's right for now. Um the question I think as you deploy capital into you know different companies in the space is especially in kind of adventure constructor, you know a fun construct.

We're trying to think about what happens over the next no five, ten years and then no, you even beyond that as well to inform where where value will accrete um over over a fun life. And so to me, you know I actually everything you said that the the whole kind of concept stable coins to us feels very kind of transitioning in temporary. And I think it's for me was instructive to just going to look at the the bridge press release they to put out jointly with strike in one particular set of lines gona call my eye.

So IT says strike in bridge both believe that our increasingly globalized world needs Better money. We need money that can move across borders freely, accessible to anyone in any country and and can be sent at almost no cost. And so to me, just like, well, Better money, we agree we do need that. And bitcoin is very clearly Better money than the dollar.

Uh and so right away, it's questionable to me that um server points have a kind of a long term path to beating out bitcoin by just being kind of tokens zed representations of less hard currency than bitcoin um but there I mean there are two like uh strains of thought at odds kind of within within what this pr says. The first one to me, it's worth noting is lego case. We need free freedom of movement and access.

Well, that's where big coin shines, right? It's completely permissionless. Um you can use IT um as as an individual as institution running your own node on cheap consumer hardware if you don't want to run their own, know there are other ways to do IT that maybe have other trust trade ffs, but um you know no transaction history has been able to you be censored long term on the big coin network and the same is very much not true of stable coins, right?

Their permissions, they have an issue, often many issues at play, and ultimately they back into access to rational banking whales somewhere, somewhere along the line someone has to be holding treasuries or U S dollars um that allow the the table point peg to actually he maintained or or you're running, you know a carlena type scheme. We saw how that worked out over a couple years ago. And so the frame of moving and access piece to me is, is, is questionable that IT really offers that.

However, the second piece, this idea that we need money that can be sent at almost no cost, well, I think that's that's really the key for what these Prices are trying to to solve for, right, what people really want when they are using stable points. IT appears to be especially emerging is you know they want low cost transfers of offshore dollars like great, you're totally right. Uh their their local home currencies are are particularly unstability and far more so than the dollar or we all know the kind of the cleaner study shirt.

And so if you want um a representation of value that is relatively stable day to day or a month to month, that doesn't have the the volatility that because in does then and you can't get access to A U S. Bank account, well IT makes sense that you can to want um this this transition ary solution, something that would give you kind of U S dollar like access or U S dollar like kind of value access. Um the problem is that the ability to allow those civilians to be sent at almost no cost like that that requirement and optimising for that is fundamental at odds with the trade off baLance that makes bit going work right that makes IT you know that gives you the freedom of movement and freeing of access and makes IT as scarce as IT is.

Um bitcoin right now has very low low cost transfers and and very low cost use. The lighting network um over time, I think we we all believe that the queens later one, we will get a lot more expensive that will become me high powered settlement and will find no other scaling solutions, uh, many of which are kind of already other in the wild to make you more consumer tight payments work and and make them cheaper. But the fact is IT can't be first and foremost optimized for low cost and can easy to use like stable coin because the way that that is achieved is through trust and through permission, right um through backing into kind of the existing banking and and financial service rails that um we've had to kind of established are ultimately not on a long term stable path.

And so you know, as we're thinking about the next ten, twenty years of value, a cruel out the way that economic mass of crews and and where people put their capital to work, um I absolutely think like there may be more stable point deals to come, and I absolutely think that this has know the solution has prior market fit can today. I think as you look forward, the question is you know what's what's the bigger prize and what has create or likelihood like long term durability um that you can actually build a real, real businesses on. And you know it's it's yet to be seen kind of what happens when a major stable coin um has its its treasury you seized or um haircut or otherwise shut down by you some bank um some central bank um in one country or another for one reason or another um you know what happened to a sovereign nation like russia that holds uh hundreds of that was holding hundreds of million of dollars in in U.

S. Treasuries and that could be turned off at the flow of the switch and IT can happen to your stable coin. So I think that that as you think about building a house on rock verses on sand, that's A A key question to me. You fundamental going forward with with these times of technologies, that's can I view the deal?

yeah. I also think that if I were invested if I personally were invested in, you know, companies like this, I would want to be realizing those investments in the near term versus taking on whatever. I I think there's just tremendous uncertainty and potential risk around how this industry evolves over the next several years, specifically just in in the stable going world.

I mean, hat one question is like how many different dollar is stable? Coin ts, do we need I mean, do we need tether USD c and queen bed dollar and paypal dollar and H J P Morgan dollar and black rock dollar? I mean, I, I, I think there's a lot of people that now want to participate, and there's a lot of different institutions that have varying levels and some of them very significant levels of influence on the direction of us policy.

And so I think for players out there, there is a tremendous amount of stroke of the penner asks which if you're an investor, I mean, that's not a type of risk that you want to be taking on because that's the type of thing that dramatically shifts the potential outcome of your investment. So think to be realizing a positive investment return in the space based on at least a belief that, hey, there's there's some growth and stable coin mark right now. I think that much more palatable than um taking on longer term duration, a risk of however, this industry might avoid because I think that could be significantly changing over long, least medium to long term.

Yeah completely with all that nothing add other than I think we found the topic or maybe one of the next episode is timing and something we think in a lot about here at ten thirty one. And I think is something that everybody should really be aware of, especially if you you're allocating bitcoin, allocating money within the bitcoin space is that timing is very important, trying to figure out where allocate dollars and when in the space.

And maybe that's the next topic we can dive into in a couple weeks, which the something that's court to our thesis to me personally, is that there's an order of Operations to pick coins. Long term success and the necessity of particular companies along the way of that journey to the ultimate success um in timing is something that's very important, something that we take very seriously here at ten thirty one, despite the fact that we see book coin in conversion, its in state. Obviously, we are not at the end state.

And getting to that end state means that we have to be very particular and thoughtful around timing of allocations and what the market is demanding at any given point time in in hell, certain companies meet that demand. Timing for stable coin seems to be right. Think it's unarguable that .

there is demand for yeah yeah, absolutely. And like I said, wouldn't be surprised to see kind of more deals in in the um it's interesting you know that the number is and this isn't you know they mean the deal at all more just interesting from kind of about outsiders headline perspective, you know it's it's a bit of a billion dollar deal, right? And part of that probably related to new hourly stage IT is um know how low the toy's of our areas.

But but you would think know if this is kind of the future of money, the future of finance and whether that's kind of stable points mells or something like you know bridges issue in C P I that granted your point allows um different holders, different users kind of issue and then kind of use their own um stable coins into ably could not vote interval ly um that feels like it's it's a market that should be bigger. No big enough to warn much more than you a billion dollars al no idea went on with with the deal dynamics and no comment on that. But um I think it's it's an interesting point.

You bring up that if if you're in kind of the stable coin space, um maybe now is the time to just go ahead and and monetize. Um rather than continue to take on longer duration um risk on on what may happen in just a few years depending on how different administrations here or or abroad kind of view the growth of this this a offshore dollar market. So um yeah, I just think maybe that someone to you on just of the size of the deal um relative to you know what what I might have benefit um if if stable coin's were truly kind of going to become in an excited in years the the future of the world's .

financial infrastructure yeah to that point I I wouldn't be surprised if the stroke of the pen risk the current described earlier come comes from europe instead of the U. S. Because stable coins are directly encroaching on the euro dollar market, which are the european economy in the financial system ever there has dependent on and roll that way for for quite some time.

And so um I think the U. S. Is actually happy that these stable coin Marks exist. I think explicit paul ryan has come out. Many others have how are lutnick from counterforce jerold essentially campaigning for tether like stable coins because they drive demand for for us treasury auction. And so I would not be surprised if europe becomes the tagged ist in the stroke of a pen risk that exists for stable coins as we had forward.

Yes.

guess this was a good first episode. I mean, the ninety nine percent of podcast that ever start don't make a past first episode. If we get the number two, it's ninety percent never get passed for a episode. Ninety five percent never get past ten episodes.

So if we get the two in the top ten percent of podcast that ever exist, if we get the ten top five percent, so we just get to get the ten, and I think we will, dean, this a massive success. As was a great first dry run, we officially rip the bandit off or and developed a report maybe will be we will get more emotion into IT is of the first one that we're doing. It's always it's always a feeling out stage the first few episodes, but I I feel like we ready to get into a good group here, get nice pink pong action .

here today yeah we we know each other very well. So I think, uh, maybe will continue to show a little more of the organic reporters we .

for yeah and that to that not always just going be us three. We do have we are gonna guest from within the ten thirty one portfolio, the ten thirty one network outside the network. We've got a few in mind that, that will have on in the coming months.

You can add to this conversation because to the point there was made a few minutes ago about the ratio risk was stable coins. I think that's where I wanna go next is timing. And we'll have this discussion when we record the park as but I think timing for bitcoin embedded in long duration credit products as super collateral is is going to be something that's talked about a lot this cycle. And I think that is an example of a product where the timing is ripe.

Yeah yeah agree with that. And one of the things I want to um give listeners in views out this podcasts is a peak under the hood with you know as we have these gas, some of them will be people that were backing and really give a peak under the hood on um you know how we think about a partnership, what it's like to build a bit going business. There's a lot of people who make the rounds on podcast and talk about their companies. On the surface level, I think we have a really unique perspective to be able to to go deeper on some of those businesses and the stories behind some of those founders and how they're building their businesses and how they think about positioning themselves for the long term in this transition that we're talking about. And I think if we can bring that to life, that will be something that is differentiated.

Now when you say that it's it's like we're bringing the tribe to the rest of the world, the tend thirty one. Try another thing we think differently at this years, open communication lines between us, the founders, founders, L S, L, S. us. It's that's another topic that we get into is how applying the ethos of bacon as as interrogation network by proof of work to what we do at ten thirty one has actually benefited us massively over the first five years of of the fund.

Yeah absolutely. The I think you will see as as we go for a especially type founder, you know were more proud of our foundational ships in some of the um companies we've been able to bring into the fold um than than anything else that we ve done. Just just having these relationships and being in many cases, able to be these exclusive vaccine are a lot of these great businesses. And I think people will see you as we as we bring them on kind of one by one know the proof be in the putting how specialist done?

Oh yeah, I think I think I found an ending for that. That was your bitcoin alpha for the week. I'll see you guys in a couple weeks.