#557: Is The True Supercycle Here? with Pascal Hügli
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The next target will probably be gold itself, which would be around six hundred thousand dollars per big coin. And then it's probably the treasury market that were eying, and boy will have a lot more upset as well.

Pascal hughley is a swiss financial analyst, author, educator specializing in digital assets in bitcoin. He has written on topics like the impact of central bank policies on investment strategies and the evolving landscape of digital currencies. Today will discuss trump s Victory and its implications for bitcoin, growing institutional acceptance, the potential of a super cycle, much more. I haven't .

feeling myself that we could be at this tipping point. Some government will start. I mean, we've seen else L A doors starting with this in twenty twenty one. But there will probably, or I IT just sums it's, it's inevitable that at some point, some other government will do this.

You've had a dynamic where .

money become freer than free.

Let me talk about a fed just gone. All, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all .

acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, bitcoin is the victim.

I mean, that's part of the bulcke for bitcoin. If not paying attention, you probably should be, probably should be.

probably should be. Abbe, this is very exciting. I'm going, I want to warn you, I ve got two hours to sleep. Last night I stated up to four A M my two year old to slapp me in the face at six a IT was a an unexpected result here in the united states.

I think many people, myself included, thought trump h had a good chance of winning, but many americans were resigned to the process, taking much longer than than a day. There was expectations that I would take days, if not weeks, account of votes and get a final result in terms of who won the election. But we had a swift red wave wash across the united states yesterday.

IT looks like we want the presidency, the senate, in the house of representatives, I believe, last I checked. And so IT seems like president trump, as resounding, supported the american people and handed a Mandate to pushed through the policies that he campaigned on. And as I was mentioning right before we hit record, I say that you do. You're excited about what's happening here in the united states because you have a perspective being over in switzerland. So what is IT getting you excited about this?

Well, you sure. Hey, marty, thanks for having me. No, what's getting me excited? I mean, in the end, obviously it's is the combination of a lot of things, you know yeah I mean, that is there is one thing that there is like, uh, at least if you see or here around here in europe and witchland other places, maybe like people as well, you know they were expecting or like at least they were hoping, I guess, for Harris to win like, uh, and IT was always taken as something yeah, which is it's a given, you know, that he would win.

And then obviously we there are these posts that being shown around also out of europe. You know how people would have like voted if if they had a chance to do this, you know. And I was probably even crazy than in the us, like I can.

Switzerland, maybe seventy eight percent or something we've gone for, for Harris at least. I mean, that's just just polls and you know some extra pollution. So you don't know if you can take IT like really serious, but still it's kind of crazy and and things just again, turn out this differently or turn out differently, I know.

And that's what I found so interesting, obviously, is also kind of as we have probably as you have talked with other guests before, as I have talked many times before with my colleagues, again, it's yet another example of legacy media, mainstream media, whatever you want to call IT, kind of fAiling, you know, on on on a variety of of of of topics and then also front, you know, and then obviously big coin, you know, which is something that's near and dear to my heart, which now seems to be also getting more support. So that's probably why i'm so excited to just um be living at this time where all these things are coming together. And uh also kind of like markets, you know that was also a big takeaway for me when I was following this, like the prediction market thing. You know just amazing how how like more accurate I would say they were in all of this and just, uh yeah showing that uh is to trust the market or trust the media and I think the markets have have won once again, you know so and that was that everything of was interesting or that's all like which is what is interesting .

to me yeah it's the way he he described its almost like the the mean the european mine can't comprehend this. Come to life with with one event what is IT psychologically, socially over in europe from your perspective that would drive people to favor somebody like ma hair is over a Donald trump.

Yeah, it's kind of here. I haven't contemplate ted this in in much detail. I have to have to say, I mean, originally I started politics in in university, you know, so was I had this initial interest in politics, but then have a more kind of, yeah just everything like reality and things happening in real life kindly drove me away from this, you know and and I ever I drew closer to markets, you know, because I think that's more where reality is at and I am more comfortable dealing with this.

And that's probably also something why I was driven to big coin in the first place then, you know. So I haven't like contemplated this in meaningful depth, you know. But still I would say, yes, it's just interesting. Europe probably more than the the U S. You know like having this yeah I I would know how to call IT. Maybe h people have lived too well for too long, you know and that's why they have kind of uh, accustomed to this feeling that government is always there and kind of needs to protect you and and and it's just the ultimate authority.

And then if you have somebody like truck, you know, which kind of also teamed up with these, I would say in in the typical european mind, the the evil doors, you know, the mild tech billionaires, the true market capitalist, you know, then it's I is this cocktail that many people don't like, and that's why their categories, ics, are opposed to to something like this, you know. And if you really talk to the general leftish people over here, you know all they can reiterate is like saying, okay, truman, you know, it's all just personal, you know, because he's this person who has sexually abused on people. He was convicted and now the american mind can can still go ahead and and kind of vote somebody like him into office, which is just crazy, you know but I feel like they don't really evaluate this uh, in terms of policies you know where I would maybe sometimes even say, well, trump is kind of too far from me, you know, coming maybe from a libertarian background and stuff, but it's more at home.

I am and they're just a valuing this like uh from from their personal use and maybe that the poll maybe you've seen IT uh shared around along twitter IT was this paul, that was taken all throughout europe. We know where people were asked how they how they voted. And I mean, what's really interesting is that like the countries that would have gone and vote IT for trump, or maybe like, uh, predominantly for trump, there are all the countries in eastern europe, you know, countries that maybe at some point in time experiences through socialism know, and and all the other countries which are way more in favor of camera Harris for some reason, are the other countries in europe. So that's also something to point out, which is interesting.

Yeah, I saw alan farrington share that chart with the with a funny equip tweet. And IT is fascinating. And I think a large part, whether is socially driven by the tendencies of countries in western europe to fever, more collectivist, collectivist policy, but going to the ad harmons, I think the mainstream media, but here in the united states and abroad, has done individuals the world over a grade service over many years.

But particularly reading up to this campaign, that's what I think not only was this election a massive signal of support for trumped in the policies that is putting forth， but it's also a massive signal for the delegitimizing of the mainstream media, particularly here in the united states. Because if you work here in the lead USA election, watching what the mainstream media was putting out there and how they're positioning both candidates was very biased and and they were objectively misleading people. Whether that was in the first characterization of Donald trump or the projected support for each candidate. And that's something that has really been a growing strand over, I believe, last three presidential elections here the united states is you're seeing in parallel the the diligent ization of the media, but also the the polls that that are used to sway perception around the election, particularly in the lead up to election. The polls have been rendered completely useless in the last twelve years.

Yeah exactly. I mean that what that something I found particularly interesting you know being from europe and switzerland, you know what the time delay. So I was like, okay, but I was following this as well, you know. But I was kind of looking at these, as I already mention, this prediction markets, you know, and one being this Polly market thing, you know, which has been floating around and whatever people think of IT, you know it's it's something which is really interesting because I I read this this morning that they were like three point six billion dollars traded on this presidential election, which is to me quite significant and and and and like seems to be like a break market that was there, you know.

And one one or two things that struck me is really because obviously, as I said, the time delay, I wanted to go to bed at some point, you know, but when I was going to bed, maybe i'd like two or three clock my time. I was already quite assure that trump is going to win, you know. And this is really because I wasn't following any news from the line monitor, mature outlet or something.

I was just looking at these polling market stats, you know and and you have like these two findings that I would see. It's like Polly market was way more accurate, like this prediction market on on forecasting, uh, going into the election, you know, on the forecasts and also um IT called the election almost in real time, you know, way before the media did, you know and that to me is just again, markets winning over like media and centralized hopes of information. You know, because like this prediction markets, there is still inputs from many diverse actors to produce Prices, obviously you know and that present and sort of these confirmation biases and that's so interesting that the market is just uh yeah where where where information comes together and and is distilled in the end it's it's the outright true reality that's that's there and that's what I found so interesting.

You know that just by following this um you could very well be ahead of the herd in predicting this as well. And IT just shows you know how the media is playing or the mainstream legacy media playing these games you know by but trying to tell the audience it's it's a close game where in reality IT was not, you know. And they are also kind of really hating on this market.

Calling them out as something hides only like trump loving crypto brows from outside the U. S. Who use this.

But in the end, again, this doesn't matter. You know with markets, markets they don't care about identity. It's just people you know that have skin in the game and that kind of where we're using this.

And that's what I find interesting. You know again that this seem to be really for the first time we've such a little with market that we've seen markets um triumph over over as I and centralized media hops. And I think in the future, there will be a lot more of this, hopefully sometime in the future, built on big corner around big corn as well. So that's what I find so, so fascinating yeah the .

concept of prediction markets parame in in bice's circle cyphers punk cirl circles more broadly been talked about for quite some time. Essentially the theorizing over a decade ago that if we were able to have this free market of predictions enable by free market for money, A A A liquid market with money that cannot be sensor, you um get Better information around particular events. And there have been prediction markets in the past predicted.

But I think IT has preferential zed rails quickly from a monetary perspective. And I think this is the first U. S.

election. Elections are probably, uh, at least today, the the biggest markets which h attract liquidity for predictions around particular events. And IT feels like this was an inflection point for the trajectory of prediction markets. Polly, market, regardless of what you think about, uh, is being built on an alternative cyp to currency area is objectively true that IT was massively successful, did provide significant signal to the market and will lead up to the election. And so what does this mean moving forward in your mind?

Well, yeah, what does that mean? I mean for me kind of means markets are just going to win on so many fronts going for me. You know, I think bitcoin is the prime example with a market winning in money, you know, and and that's what we're all seeing.

And I think something like Polly market is really something yeah and in the realm of information again, you know and of of of predicting stuff, you know which becomes ever more traveler. And in today's world, you know with things happening with financial markets, which make up a huge h junk of everybody's daily life, unfortunately, no, because everyone has to become a speculator nowadays, you know. But then obviously this is something people wanna turn to.

And and and that's what I find so interesting. So in the end, I think this is where it's it's gonna go you know that IT seems like, uh uh yeah with big coin for the past sixteen years. You know it's just one big proof that A A finance or like a free market in in money is is so much whether or in reality, like kind of depicts reality that much Better and that's why more and more people are kind of flocking to IT.

And for me now, this thing with Polly market was again yeah another approve of this, you know and and this doesn't mean that Polly market will be IT will just be going on crazily, you know, and that the liquidity will still be there. But he was another proof. And whenever big, interesting things happen in the world, I mean, this is at least for me, where I will turn to next to know and increasingly get my my information and all my my inputs from from something like this. And that's what I find faster in. And yeah.

IT was interesting too, because obviously, a public market where you have these predetermined events can then go bed on. And as you approach the event, the odds of particular outcome change depending on the confidence of of that outcome happening. Um but we also have biton reacting to this real time to bitcoin, acting as a sort of separate prediction market.

The Price shot seventy one thousand and I believe like ten minutes later were up to seventy two half an hour later up to seventy three years like as IT was becoming clear on Polly market and um with them people who were actually able to read the tea lease and see what was going on the trip seen the trump was onna win resounding ly like Price of biceps started shooting up as well, which is a bullsh signal and we've seen this in other events too. Not the Price going up but um the coin does that act maybe not a prediction mark with a global ARM system in times of liquidity crunches or crisis, I think most recently october seventh of last year was a great example that where you had a homos attack israel on a saturday. The only market trading at the time was big coin which dumped, I believe ten percent um and that was a signal there's be some chaos in the market .

every day yeah for sure yeah exactly. I mean that said because is really this global liquidity parameters, so to say you know and yeah there there is also some truth in this but then Polly market dog, which is that thought um in real time you know during these elections, I mean, any one more point on this you know that might be interesting for everyone to to hear because that was an observation I also made and I thought the other people comment this comment on this as well.

You know that I was actually really moving in real time. You know, as I said, like this this this information coming in because I think IT was well, you could be well discovered when you you had like this Polly market prediction outcomes, you know and and people were looking at them. And then obviously, as these are first states in the U.

S. Came in, you know, and boats were counted and you could kind of see, okay, and these polls that people had, trump, for example, is is, is like significant outperforming them. He's doing a lot Better in reality than the polls were saying, you know then obviously some of the like really smart and seventy people we are going okay. This is probably a mistake that um is not random, you know and it's probably if the polls are wrong in some states, there are probably also wrong at almost the same extent in in other states as well. And then that was actually the case when then that these trades on Polly markets, they saw that.

And that was then when they kind of were that trump was getting a lot more world's than expected in some states that were not as competitive that that kind of suggesting, okay, um we don't have to weight on on other other outcomes in swing states because we can extract late this you know these these um like in I would say um that that the boats were were inaccurate, you know and these other states and that that was kind of if you know what I mean IT was how would I say extracted later and that's why they already knew okay, in alter swing states, even though votes are not counted. We know that um yeah there there there's not gonna and a any discrepancy so to say now that was that was the interesting thing that I also pick IT and people could not kind of way earlier settled on on high probabilities that the trump is going to win in these states as well. And so that was also quite an interesting observation for me. So to say, if you know what I mean.

yeah, yeah, you can see the trends materializing in the states that are reporting voting numbers earlier than others. And again, like you said, extract that. Well, this friend is happening here. A certain demographic of people thinking a certain way in this part of the country, likely that that seemed demographic and part of the country is thinking the same way as well. So that would make sense to vote that he's going to win or bet there is going to win and it's fast. Like what I mean just to tie up the not on prediction markets before we get into um like the bigger implications that trump getting in the office has on bacob uh as a whole. Uh, like do you think we see drastic changes and how people interact with these events and the information around them moving forward?

Well, I mean, probably not everyone on ously now because some people, uh, I think these things will never trickle down to that now because they are just not they still kind of believe, okay, this was just random, you know and it's not the way I interact in the future because I think they're still a general distrust in markets, you know and that's why exactly that some people were really calling a bullsh.

You know, like it's not going to happen and then the keys, Polly, markets must be wrong and must be or like prediction markets must be wrong and must be manipulated. And this is just generally like to me sort of a or an expression of A A general distrust in market. no. And not believing that something like this in information can also um we have lead to great Price discovery and then obviously to more accurate predictions.

You know so I think like a lot of people will remain sceptical, but the ones probably that that kind of maybe have a natural penalty to flock to something like this, the ones that are probably already kind of skeptical with main street media, maybe this time around, we have another like at the marching number of people who kind of yeah that they have this a whole moment where they say, OK. Now I downed me once again. You know, I could really not trust this because they were so wrong and I have to go look for alternatives.

I wouldn't expect like this great change. You know we're all of a sudden like um people would only follow this, but at the march and I believe it's the same with big one is the same with every market driven technology. People in the end who are interested in in in living life on an acting accordingly or in in accordance or in greater accordance with reality, what will flock to these type system. So I would assume um they have upset you know in that sense but not like generally or at least I don't think I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Yes, I had a James prog on last week who's have found our bitcoin prediction ed up market, which is trying to build a Polly or is building a Polly market lake marketplace on top of big coin using the lightning network. And that was a part of the discussion, the full offical discussion that we got into with these prediction markets existing.

Does IT introduced the potential to actually change in outcome? If you say this events gona happen six months, or now you start bedding on IT as you gate closer, the odds um will become clear. And if you don't want that event to happen, it's a bad event. They could look at the prediction market, seeing that a high probability event that may come to be in the future and knowing that is a high probability, you act to reduce the probability so that, that outcome doesn't materialize.

Yeah, I mean, it's probably an interesting thought. Again, I haven't thought about this in in in grade detail because. Like at the top of the top of my head, I would kind assume a you may be able to to manipulate markets in your favor, like especially if if there's not a lot of liquidity, you know and and you have like the pockets, but in the end, you kind of have to believe that you can beat the market, you know because yeah and also kind have to be willing uh, to put money on the line that you can lose because again, you can try to I maniples things lower.

But if then the market um just h buy IT of you you know or has another view uh entirely, then then then you will lose out you know and that's probably just with markets in general, you know because the same discussion is going on with companies and some people say OK can, like large holders, manipulate the Price indefinitely. We have the same discussions with bitcoin or used to have them, maybe not that much anymore. And I always think, yeah, it's a free market and people can certainly try, but uh, it's probably gonna be to their own detriment. Uh if if the market doesn't think that they're right, uh and and and and thanks otherwise, then there therein for A A loss of uh money. Ah that's that's a lot, I would think, at least there.

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I check out. I mean, now the event, the outcomes of the event is clear. Donald trump as president, he has been very favorable towards bitcoin h doring his campaign.

Many people are convinced, and I think rightly so, that there will be um biceps will be maybe not front center will be apart of is overall strategy as he enters the White house again. And so with all that mind as a standard ad, believe were currently at an all time high above seventy six thousand. The coin is a one point five trillion dollar market cap asset at the moment. As somebody who's been deep in the bitcoin for many years now, like how would you define where bitcoin stance today and where where it's gna go in the short to medium term?

Yeah, a good question. I mean, yeah, it's certainly something you would have never believed or I would not have believed to be happening that soon. You know. I mean, obviously, you were always contemplating that the big players were coming.

You know that indian bichon is for everyone bichon onis for evening enemies in that way it's also for institutions and and like big tech billionaire and indian even government, you know and so um you were always h probably thinking this back in your mind, or at least I was, you know and back the day in twenty eighteen when I wrote my book, I was also kind of contemplating this a theory, like many authors you know of of when when the first central banks kind of buy big on. You know, I sort of a hedge and stuff and and I never really thought of that IT could actually be governments, you know, thinking about something like building up a uh, strategic big one, research something. But I mean, now here we are, and these things have become a lot more probable.

I think a lot of people are still kind of skeptical that something like this in the U. S. Could happen.

And and so I think not enough of this is is Priced in yet, because like IT still feels so too real, you know, like why? Why would the U. S. Government h do this uh, with something which is only like sixteen years old? Isn't that too much of A A risk reputation risk still, even if you are a hard core big believer, it's yet it's it's kind of like sixteen years.

That's nothing know and and we're already talking these big dimensions, you know but that at the same time, I think it's it's the modern world know the modern world is like moving exponentially ever, ever faster, ever more exponentially. no. And and it's so hard for us to kind of things that move exponential to kind of have them, you know, because there's this important or like a lot of example that are trying this, you know, we can think linearly like in a Linda way as as human beings.

And as you as soon as something gets exponential, our minds are not wired to do think that way, you know. And that's certainly something that we have learned like when you go back in history, you know, ever since the world entered modernity and know maybe sometimes during the industrial revolution, you know when when banking and also central banking kind of was probably having its adventure, you know, then the world actually moved in this modern type of environment where where things have just accelerated ever since. And and that's why if I think think about IT in that respect and kind of, again, okay, maybe sixteen years, it's nothing and it's actually yeah because things are are moving that fast, but we'll see. I mean, we don't know yet if something like this is going to happen, as I said, strategic back on reserve, which would be huge, but it's such a possibility that has a lot more probable now with a jump presidents, I would say.

and you mention there's no is big and sixteen years old, why I would government do this. But let's put forth the argument like why would you argue that the U. S. Government should build a strategic big coin reserve?

Well, that's it's a great question. I've actually contemplating this myself, you know because I always trying to play devil's other cat as well and kind of like things okay, why should they be doing this? I mean, the pro arguments I see is probably yeah because maybe not or at least how I approach this as of now to kind of make sense, maybe not so much from a government perspective, but mayor from a government perspective as government being um somebody who has to work in service of their of their constituent or like there's their citizens, you know.

And in that way I kind of make to me, you know if you are use U S government and you know that um you have a lot of people within h your your national borders that are holders of big coin and and they will this proportionally benefit if you adopt bitcoin as a strategic bitcoin reserve? Then obviously you also have to kind of have A A positive regulatory environment. You kind of have to make sure everything is well kept, so to say, you know and then a kind of make sense for me, you know because then you you you're doing this on behalf of your citizens and strengthening them you know sort of like, yeah, you have the us.

Treasuries, which are the ultimate safe haven for institutions. And maybe as we always hear, bitcoin is really the ultimate safe acid for for people and increasingly also for institutions. That's what we're seeing as well.

But that's something how I try to approach this. And then also maybe just comically speaking, you know you could think that I mean, the U. S.

Government, uh, we keep on hearing this, that they have this exorbitant privilege. You know where they kind of really benefit from having the world's reserve currency. And it's obviously IT is probably a big a big benefit, but it's also to the detriment of of large the parts of society.

You know, because we have this so called trip fin still, lama, that you probably have heard of, you know where ah the us. Really struggles with um yeah having to export us dollars and then having to keep this trade deficit you know with other countries and this kind of just has to the fact that the U S. Has the industrialized and then just kind of your hole out out this its middle class and stuff, you know.

And so that's really because of this problem, you know, because the us. Has this the world reserve currency. And if you kind of think about IT, now that we have big coin, and you have maybe government, a big strategy, big on reserve, endorse by the U.

S. Government, then this kind of give speak coin further credibility for alter governments to also move in. And then at the marching, you can also funda dollar liquidity and other liquidity, you know, into into this big one vehicle and thereby probably kind of counteracting riffs dilema.

You know. So that's that's an other thought that i've been having. I still have to think about this is more detail, but this is something I think where where IT makes sense, at least from that perspective. I would say.

yeah, especially when you factor in trumps tax policy, which includes a hey heavy terrific me, which is a direct attack and the consequences of travel's dilema, which is you print yeah, there were old reserve currency. You have to flood international markets with IT and you do that by buying their cheap labor and at the detriment of the manufacturing base at home. And that seems like that is one from core policies that we're going to raise tariff to try to reinvigorate the manufacturing base here domestically in the united states. And that almost .

like a recognition .

like we need to get away from trip in the delima. So you would probably, I would think, need something like a strategic bitcoin reserve to counteract the forces that, that will be introduced the market .

with the 嗯 yeah， yeah, I I would soon as well. I mean, I would have to think about this more detail. But but sure.

I mean, in the end, this is there. This would be sort of a counter acting factor. I mean, that's just a thought that i'm having.

A lot of people are arguing that is also net beneficial because like uh, U S. Government that situation, you know and if you kind of a trying to reinforce the U S. Dollar by having some sort of big on back king, you all then in times of stress, uh IT might help. And i'm not sure if I buy this argument just yet, you know uh because like the U. S.

Government, IT probably has some facilities, you know, and I think IT has this economic stability fund as well, where I can kind of Mandate h the treasury to to kind of call markets if if things get rough, you know and h then again, you can probably nominally, at least indefinitely by its step, you know. And and there I am not quite sure if if this is really something, at least in today's environment, where this would would make any difference, you know to the market if you say, ah we have now a big coin backing. I don't know if if if that is around the world who are loaning money to the government of the the states would would feel any different, at least that that's kind of like my feeling. Maybe this could change further down the line, you know, but I don't know how you think about this, but this feels kind of maybe an argument that's being made by the big corners. But I am not sure if IT IT really adds up.

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Let's drink S O T dot com. Use the code t ftc when you make your purchase and you'll get fifteen percent off and tell you get on a freak, you going to love this stuff. I sure the debt seems so important this time that, I mean, I think maybe put a dent in the total debt with a strategic big in reserve that can only be used to pay off the debt at some point, but that you need between the monitise significantly or to make a significant debt, then the the debt.

I think now as we're having this conversation, like the bitcoin strategic reserve from the point of the U. S. Government could be a strategic move to send a signal to the market, the U.

S. Governments, given the stamp of approval, tobaccos, obviously, that we will be pulling some supply off the market to put in that reserve. Then you have the game theory, the place after that where the U.

S. Is doing this. Should we be doing this? Everybody buys that. Maybe the ultimate goal is the drive of the Price of big coin, understanding that americans, on a per capital basis, told the most big coin in the world. And so they want to increase the individual wealth of american citizens to put them in a Better position.

Yeah exactly exactly. That's that's probably how I think about IT exactly because that's that's also that the major and biggest risk that you're running as the government you know today in today's world. You know what, if any, other country you know that assume from the U.

S. Perspective to the russians, the chinese or who, the indians or whatever else there is, you know, like they are at some point acknowledged this, you know, and then they're encouraging its citizens to buy bitcoin. And then bitcoin, like significant, significantly appreciate.

And then you have all these non us citizens holding a lot of wealth in something which is also no part of the us a financial system, then you might be worse off in the end you know from a us perspective. And that's why I think um because from the game game um like theoretical perspective, at some something like this will have to play out. Some government will start.

I mean, we've seen elsa or starting with this in twenty twenty one, but there will probably or IT assumes it's it's inevitable that at some point some other government will do this you know and and and that's why I think the sooner the later or the sooner the the us starts with something like this um which I still kind of see as somewhat in line with with we're i'm coming from europe, you know switzerland maybe and yeah more more liberal democracy if we want to call IT like this. You then then at the marching, this is probably something I would be a more keen uh to see, you know and and that's why I think I would be would be a great move by the U. S to do something like this but really always having the individual in mind and not so much the government the government would just be, as I said, the one the one entity yeah really doing this in service of of its citizens .

ah ah and it's crazy to see IT actually player, who knows if the big in act will passed, the government will start buying bitcoin, putting IT in the strategic reserve. But the fact that is even being discussed is crazy in A A direct validation of the game theory. The picture has been talking about fifteen years, which is uh at some point everybody is going to have to play the game, whether it's an individual company, southern wealth and sober nation, and it's GTA happen and IT seems like IT is happening in the game theory has always been such its advantageous to be in early mover as opposed to a late mover and is honestly a bit talking to be that the united states has the potential to be one of the early movers and then that we would be a lagged and IT is encouraging that we're thinking seriously about this and potentially going to be an early more in terms of a big quin accumulation on the nation state level.

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting that you say this that you can have to feel in that you guys will be a legged because I had the same feeling also again, trying to think from a mark perspective. I assume that like smaller countries, you know like switzerland, like maybe link stein or other other countries would would actually be faster and in doing something like this, you know but then I mean, here in sweet, we could argue that we have a vive and crop to ecosystem.

But then again, for what it's worth, I don't know if this is really going to to play as well and be really the winning strategy you so to say, you know and then other countries um yeah latians dying again. You know it's it's a really small country that I would assume they could have had the incentives and also maybe the knowledge to pull off something like this, but they haven't, you know and it's it's then probably other countries like ourself the door. But ton or or I don't know you know who are probably now now first move is here and and and now already we see the united states uh, coming in, you know and it's always just interesting, you know to kind of CD dynamics playing out.

I mean, it's similar to this whole discussion. It's maybe a little bit attention, but you know this discussion with microstrip, gy and coin base probably have followed this as well. You know where people are kind of pointing out his crazy coin base has been in the game for for so long, you know and and and they had never dawn on them to kind of put big cn on their baLanced, you know, and they were just kind of distracted with with with this whole, this centuried outgoing casino and pushing this.

And now we've seen microstrip gy that came along is only in the game for four years and is already kind of a competing coin base, especially when he comes to its stock. You know we've seen this and and so so so much Better. And dare you see sometimes the ones that you probably expect these things to to most uh uh intuitively get IT and do IT or not the ones that that actually do IT in the end and that's what I find so interesting as well.

Yeah I always said the us be lagger because of the fact we had the world reserve currency. And um adoption of bitcoin is a is a recognition that that is not going to last forever. And I always believe that long believed that the us we tried to hold off acknowledging that for as long as possible. So I think that's the shocking thing to me is that the recognition has happened um before other countries and only sixteen years in the piques life.

Yeah I see. But you could almost argue that the us. Has like the biggest stake to lose, and that's why they're now probably it's dawning on them, you know because they have the world reserve currency.

I mean, it's probably the biggest they are running the biggest risk of of losing this, you know and now that it's probably yeah I mean, it's big coin, you know that's playing a futuro here and and then again, probably also stable coins, you know. And I think these are like two technologies that kind of work and intend them, you know and and kind of also reinforce each other. And and that way could also be interesting for.

The us to say, okay, we are adopting big coin you know a sort of as this is this more desensitized version and this is really this one part of our so the identity you know which is still somewhat ah it's liberty is libertarian thinking. It's essentialize something that seems to be somewhat still left in in the DNA of the us. And then again, you have maybe the more centralized version, which is the us dollar, which is also quite powerful.

And and there I think it's the reason you see that they are kind of trying to um go down the stable coin route as well where they say, okay, we want to we want to adopt this. We want to bring IT on shore. We really want to uh regulate this is well because this is a way to also kind of people keep like help to maintain this position of of having the worlders of currency. And so uh as I said, I can also be IT can almost be argued that they they have the biggest stakes and h to lose and and they don't want this. And that's why it's now dawning on them and maybe faster than on other countries.

you know and faster than, like we said earlier, either of us probably expected. And with that mind, he how how much time has been pulled forward in terms of the time IT will take for bitcoin to monetize considerably um by the U S. government.

Like let's just wrong with the assumption that the big one that was passed in the government starts accumulating a bitcoin reserve. What what does that do for the Price of big coin? The market like how how crazy do things get if that actually happens in your mind?

Yeah good, good question. I mean, it's also something that would probably have to think about in more detail because yeah, I mean, yeah, that seems to be so far fetched and and at the same time, so close now. But I mean, the game theory would yeah would accelerate, you know because I think once the us actually implement something like this and he would become public known, then I think a lot of the market would have to follow suit, you know and and kind of have to everything would get Prices in, you know and and maybe you could argue, uh even even if the us.

Doesn't officially announced IT, you know and IT keeps on speculating with IT all a on the back drop of of jump now being president and having kind of sort of endorse endorse something like this, you know then then from from from an outside of perspective, if you're never really sure if if the us. Is going to pull this off or not, you know, and then maybe just to kind hatch yourself as another country, you will have to front rung or at least try to front run this, you know, because what if the us at some point and announced that, hey, we have done IT and then, I mean, overnight, and we we finally get this omega h god campo that everyone is still looking for, you know? And and that would be crazy so that would also accelerate things you know because you don't one of you left behind. So uh I think now even though I don't want to sound too bullish and stuff all all um yeah all heads are someone how off and and we will see uh what's what's happening or what's going to happen was just about .

to ask you like, is hyper acqua ization real or is that just a mean?

Yeah I mean, probably he is. I mean, to me, it's always like because I do still work in the field world. I think that's what we originally met the rega I was there and part of the bank that i'm working with, obviously, they have been in big on for quite some time and and trying to uh also further of the big coin standard within the bank.

But I mean, I am saying this because I think if that is not going away anytime soon, that at least my belief know I could imagine a world of you at staying around, you know and just like a devalue, devaluing ever more, you know and and because like it's going to be the base in real terms and maybe nominally IT stays around, you know. And people like maybe at the march in some figure this out, but a lot of people still don't figure IT out, you know and and so I do believe that hyperactive ization, yeah, it's already happening. It's maybe not happening the way like this.

true. O G B. I thought that at some time, at some point in time, bitcoin is the only currency left and has devoured everything else. I would rather assume that bitcoin um is is monetizing as well quite hard.

But at the same time, it's the us dollar through stable coin, which is kind of hering almost every other uh feat currently on the world you know and then it's really this too uh this um to uh Spike um was a speer. You know you one side you have pick on the other side you have the U. S.

Dollar and maybe just a few other you are, which are still standing. But so if you ask me, I think hyper regan ization is happening at the same time. Field is is gonna stick around, at least nominally.

So yeah, I think I could just go on for for quite some time. And we that live in a sort of big coin, the world, we see a lot of our um surroundings improve and everything else. And maybe for the other people who are not sticking around for them, things might get worse in the end, you know.

Yeah ah I think the Price increase can certainly I mean, if the U. S. Government starts acquiring a strategic reserve with the sole intent of paying off debt in the future, he means a pull supply off and keep IT off the market for quite some time. And then when i'm just seeing on the ten thirty one side and sorry, listeners, I know i've used this example many times the last couple of weeks, but it's top of mind because I do think it's going to be a major cattle for pulling, uh, large wales.

The supply of the market for longer periods of time is big coin being recognized as a super lateral that can be imbued in structured credit products, longer duration structure credit products where that mortgage commercial real state auto loans and you sort door clatter ize the to use real state real state asset with the real state and bitcoin hold IT within the loan structure um and essentially hedge the risk of your house being demoted to zed or something by having bitcoin actually in the bitcoin within the the credit structure and we've funded some companies netter going out to the market and doing this at ten thirty one. And if you play that out, these traders develop a track record that makes IT clear, that is this is superior credit product, both from the barr's perspective and the lenders perspective. The ender gets a Better right return.

The barter gets uh, more, more secure, unpredictable equity within the the credit product. It's going to be a no brain and for others. And you're going to start pulling bitcoin into these credit products as collateral and they're going to stay in that, that credit products for ten, thirty years.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, and and the way you described that, I mean that something that we're also comfortable ating, just like at the margin at the bank, you know, because we're at least some of us within the bank or are already thinking in these terms, you know, because we believe the world is moving in that direction. And something like the us.

Endorsing bitcoin through a strategic bacon reserve, what would further legitimize something like this? You know, because then IT was probably already the big on etf. You know, Larry thing was the first genius, so to say, you know and and now probably don't trump and and the entire because government could be the other A A final nail in the coffin you know where people that kind of capitulate and say, okay, we're seeing it's correct.

You know bitcoin is here to stay and and then also if the us. Would move into something like bitcoin, you know with with like significant amount of capital than in the end, this would also make the big coin market more liquid. Uh, I would assume that the big one market being more liquid and being bigger, you know, in terms of in terms of size, uh, IT would also a stabilize a little more and that again would still make IT for a lot of people and institution again more more attractive, you know or attractive.

So to say that they say, okay, now h IT IT has this seal of approval by almost everyone on the plan and it's it's even bigger, it's even more liquid, you know, even more stable. So to say I am happy to move in because there's still gonna a more a big upside compared to other things, you know uh, because of the twenty one million a limit does nobody nothing else has. And then as you described, IT would be implemented into different types of loan structures and credit structures and and and just the hyper gonigal. And the option would keep keep going on.

Yeah what do you I mean, obviously the bank that you work for has been on top as this. You've been um dealing with bitcoin for Better part of a decade now at the bank that you're at behalf of your clients help and them get access to IT. What are you seeing in the broader banking industry as IT pretend to how bit when is being viewed?

Yeah I mean, I can mostly speak for switzerland, you know which has been quite at the forefront of at all, you know I mean had this um yeah I would say bills that were um uh introduced in twenty one already, you know where we kind of made IT um very easy and also pretty favorable in from from the perspective of the client to to custody big coin with banks. You know I think this is something which is still not possible in the U. S.

And might change now as trumpet is moving into office. No that uh like uh Normal banks can officially custody big coin and keep can keep IT off baLanced for the clients no. So in the terms of a in a bankrupcy or something, it's all safe and and debit in can be delivered right to customers.

Well, you know and and that's something I believe only like the true big banks can do nowadays in the U S. Because they got some exemption or something enough from from some folks. And in sweeten, we can already do this, you know and that kind of helped accelerate the entire entire industry.

Obviously, there are still a lot of cyp though things going on with the bank. You know that most of the banks are are offering like um just a broken age, you know and then also trading and kind of consisting of these assets. And and I think the next area is going to be uh products that actually are built on on products that make sense.

And there I would assume most banks will. Will move into products which are based on big coin because on other gypt currencies, I mean, they might have been good for trading and and for speculating and and put them in some sort of portfolio. Even there, it's stalling more and more people that most of the crypto s are not a keeping up with big coin.

And so over multiple cycles, IT doesn't make sense to keep them any long term or long term focus or or ted portfolio. But then again, even if when he comes or even like further, you know when he comes to special products, uh, borrowing against your stack, you know putting IT in in some structure product to stuff like this and a big coin is the only one which really makes sense, you know because IT has legitimacy. IT has track record and everything and it's also the only thing really demanded by clients, you know like on on a broader scale, I would argue.

So this is probably the next wave that we're seeing in switch vent already like a lot of banks are expLoring solutions to work together with og bon companies to for these kinds things. We're looking at this as well. Um guy, as a small country, we can move a little um or faster.

But now when the U S. Actually now is moving into big real a big time with with banks and everything, I mean this is gonna quite some competition. And then I think switch would have to move even faster, but to keep its edge, edge, you know, but that's at least what what I can say out of switzerland if things are moving along and and and big one is getting ever more integrated into the system, for sure.

you get me more bullish IT feels like we approaching in the suddenly moment that's want to say and heading. But I like we think about this a lot of ten thirty one, particularly when were allocating into company is is like timing, like there's many ideas out there in the world of bit coin in terms of products that can be brought, the market that are unable today.

The question is, is the timing rate for this product um like obscure lighting network use cases that make a lot of sense and actually work. But however, the market is simply isn't there that yet from an adoption perspective or understanding of the text stack and how you should interact with these products. And two days, I mean, I think the killer apps in big winter, the companies that have had the most successful things like mining hardware and the bycars l bitcoin um is still the killer APP on board people.

People are mostly gone to buy big coin. So giving them the event is to to do that is is a killer product. And beyond that, I mean we have seen with the unchained you mention that we were at the bullet caliber ger conferences to buy hot hoddle and deputies.

Y there's a great examples of companies that found product market fit using bitcoin as collateral to to receive U. S. Dollar loans. I think that market is really mature. And I think building on that pick catalist ed U S. Dollar under eu alone, whatever IT might be product in making IT almost more exotic but pushing IT further into the world of credit with the structure product, seems like this cycle could be good timing for something like that.

嗯嗯， yeah I mean this suddenly face you know, that you just mentioned this is really something that i'm context ating. You know are we at this point already and and then what does that mean you know is is going to be suddenly now like indefinitely or or like like some people are speaking of this sort of super cycle and over a big coin because and and i'm really trying to rip my head around now, is something like this going to be possible?

You know, something inside of me obviously tells me okay, or or says, well, I mean, if the us should be kind of um yeah endorsing ing big coin big time, you know also regulatory wise and everything through a big coin strategic reserve and all these different types of things, then then something like this could be possible you know and then also because yeah the leg legitimate is here, you know, and the infrastructure is here and people can actually use these products but then again, maybe the more barriers person inside of me is kind of like, yeah, but is this really that easy? You know what if the big coin market kind of slows down again, we have some sort of maybe not to prolong bear market, but maybe again a some smaller bare market, you know where Price is kind of collapsible again? Is is IT then not the case that some people are going to lose interest again? And then these products, you know, because because structured products, maybe, maybe there is not gonna be that much demand for IT.

But i'm not sure because at the same time, but I might already be at their way higher Price the next time IT already might consolidates is coming down again, which also means we have probably a bigger amount or a bigger number of people who still, uh even if IT comes down, is storing a greater amount of wealth in bitcoin and they don't care and they are the ones that are they going to demand these products, you know. And and so it's still gonna be like some sort of secular upwards trend. So this is all the that i'm contemplating and I am not sure myself, I don't know how you approach this. But yeah, will we see?

I have I have super cycle P T, S, D because that was the big mean that LED to uh the uh show that was F T X salcido block fy all that. Yet suzhou three hours guys going up their super cycle will never going back down. So i'm a natural apprehension to throw my weight behind the super cycle, mean.

But with all the factors we've been discussing without this conversation, there is a reality which I can see materializing, where we do not have the typical four year cycles that we've had historical up to this point, like we've talked about this, whether you call a hyper big quantization or the tipping point, that's one thing. i'm. Grappling with doing the internal calculus because many factors mature of the industrial the on rams custody products around um the financialization of bitcoin.

Then you have the fact that's been around sixteen years, that is bitcoin a big enough brand name is not enough brand recognition. Is Linda enough where people are like go yeah you hear hear about marketing all the time. IT takes x amount of touch points for somebody to actually convert to a user.

Other products like has been coin been around enough that enough people have received enough touch points with bitcoin that they will convert to users? Obviously, what i'm doing here at this podcast, you have a show, you're educating you're clients and the people you work without. The bank.

Has the information been distilled a to a point where it's very easy for people to grab coin relatively quickly? And then has that distill information being distributed among enough people? And are we approaching that social tipping point where the brand awareness and the understanding of big such where um people feel more confident holding IT? Then obviously you have these demand factors, which have A A profound effect on supply, where you have all these potential demand drivers pulling supply of the market for a considerable number of time, which would a increase the the floor of any subsequent cycle moving forward. And things i'm thinking about and yeah combination those things is perfect. You can envision a scenario which we do not have these rapid run ups and eighty percent crashes.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if we are if we really are at this suddenly a tipping point, I think we can only say in his insight, you know, because that's always, always only possible, like with more, more data, so to say. But I have a feeling, as you said, you know, you laid out all these reasons.

I have a feeling myself that we could be at this timing point because like something that comes to mind is when I talk to my friends, you know and and they have i've already talked to them about big coin in twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen and then again in twenty twenty one, you know. But they were still kind of not understanding what bitcoin really they really saw IT as some sort of speculated vehicle, you know that that was going up and going down and they they may be held IT themselves and then kind of solved again. But nowadays, at least OK, I like totally and it's really my friends and obviously they have been following me and that's why it's it's been dawning on them, you know but they kind of are, yeah now I get IT, you know, it's this supply which is ultimately scarce, you know.

And one thing that I feel has also done a tremendous job of educating people, and I feel like this has only been around this cycle, is this is the story of storing your, your, your, your time and energy in something which is a like absolutely scarce. You know, I feel like in twenty, twenty one or twenty twenty or or even before we haven't talked about IT in these simple terms know it's probably props to you guys, jack moller, other people great love you know, who have really Foster this idea of, hey you you you go out to work, you earn your money, you know and you have been storing IT in something which and be deluded, you know um which um and even if it's if it's not yet itself, you know real estate, everything else, everything else has sort of uh tendency to to be to be like that more units are being created and with bitcoin, this just doesn't work. You know and this is such an easy story.

I think people now get this, you know because they have heard this already and then combining IT with this, you know, okay, I see I really get this. I want to store something like this for the long term. Um my energy then always if if big kind of comes down.

And i've seen IT in in the last six a months where IT was kind of chop, you know where a lot of people approached me and they were like, okay, if it's now going down to fifty, I will buy for sure. And I don't know if they had that. They can they can always tell me, you know, and it's it's actions that should be goud than words. But I feel like just that these people have been arguing like this kind of shows me there might be over, might be close with the tipping point. But yeah then again, it's just anecdotally and and will not only know in .

ah and it's so multi variant too because we just describe our factors that are sort of internal to be in the of these external factors which the death situation, you look at the yellow curve, the long into the eld curve here in the united states is pumping um which would signal that people either think there's not be scene amount of inflation or in same amount of growth in the U. S. A can stomach that inflation.

And obviously here in the united states, I think everybody many people um are feeling this globally. They they initially ly understand what inflation IT is now because they've seen IT hit their hit their pockets over the last three years specifically and they have that external factor of neither run away from mn debt situation or Price inflation that is materially affecting the equality of life of individuals around the world. And that's another forcing function where you have this problem and you finally recognized the problem.

That was a slow burn for many decades, but now it's a faster burn, nearly what is going on. You can only understand a solution when you identify the problem. And I think externally, people are identifying this problem too, is all long as we very multi vary. But I could we're trying to back into super cycle here like this is how I was back in the super cycle describing these multivariate variables and and they sort seem to be called lesson at a perfect time.

Yeah, yeah. sure.

And I see anything, I think, whether the soviet nation, these credit products microscope at another new factor within the market of big coin that I don't think people really appreciate is that these are demand drivers are pulling supply off for longer durations. It's not speculative traders trying to to increase their their feet wealth. These are people using betwen as collateral for long periods of time, which is just a completely different dynamic in the market as well.

Yeah exactly. I haven't thought about this, but that's that's true. I mean, I used to be really like the trader. You know you were olding big time going and now yeah like on exchanges, but nobody ays. The more we get these rate players like microstrip, gies and these people, a huge conviction that I think that you will yeah exactly you will have ever more like of this liquid supply moving off the markets.

You and just being 是 away and IT needs significant higher Prices to be to be kind of put back onto the markets and then maybe some of them or even like， yeah, I don't have any attention to sell because that's always what i'm asking myself. You know what would I be selling IT for? Yeah, just again, fear.

But then what will I do with this amount of fear you know and and maybe only if you have really something in mind that you wanna kind of do and then and yeah then you have a reason to sell. But if if not, this is really a question that um I have been grappling with for quite some time you know and and as instead the more we have these people, yeah the the bigger pressure will be or the less i've mean amount of our supply that will be on the markets available that that's for sure. Yeah I made a somewhat tongue .

cheek and IT was professor tongue cheek because IT does sound too crazy. Like I my my Price target for this ball run, like I could see, is going as high and like into the the mid, like past a million dollars go up like one point five, one point eight million dollars if things get really crazy. Well, considering everything we've been discussing, you have any praise targets already? A dude ever give Price targets or ideas around where I could go?

Yeah well, I mean. Not not specifically as well. I mean, obviously at the bank, we have been trained to kind of not not do this. And I I did IT once, you know, and is with newspaper. And then like the next day, the bank CEO was knocking at my door and like maybe we have to kind of beat more a cautious because like we as as as having a do shares to do SHE is no, they could be coming back to us and and kind of telling us, say what say her.

But I mean, generally yeah for me I don't know I could be going anywhere, you know because as I said, the chips are off the table now and with with with drum having moved in and I feel like the next target will probably be gold itself, you know which would be around, I don't know, five hundred, six hundred dollars, six hundred thousand dollars for a big coin and and then yeah and the end it's probably the treasury market that we're eying and then we will have a lot more opposite as well. So I think not sure about this cycle, but i'll i'll take IT as a comment. So they say.

yeah now like you say, we only ever know in high insight. That's the other factor that plays into my super cycle analysis. If we're backing into IT, not saying it's happening, the one point eight million million prediction was tongue cheek would not be surprised, but tongue cheek probably not going to happen. But like you say, we only know in hindi and .

back back into .

the super cycle theory how we materialized. You have market participants to have been in bitcoin for a while, get condition to expect these four year cycles and then the suddenly moment happens in the four year cycles to start there anymore. And so sort of hot over time is my third forth cycle now um to expect these four year waves of in influx of users and the Price running up in a crash and rent repeat someday. But queen does what we think can do that simply not .

gonna en anymore. Now for sure.

interesting. Times interesting .

time for sure yeah I mean, yeah again, and that's what I find so interesting about big like intuitively, obviously, Prices, something i'm interested in and and I I used to be one of these guys who is always saying, well, let's not talk about Price, you know, because it's not important. And IT kind of dawned on me just in in recent months as well that bitcoin Price is important.

You know, bitcoin is about number go out because eventually this is really what it's been designed for as well, you know, because IT is this twenty one million limit, you know and then it's probably yeah it's it's good that we acknowledge this or at least that's how I think about IT. You know that IT is pure money and and that way it's it's really made to absorb all of this fear, a flood which is out there. And then obviously, Price is a big driver and something that people should be Carrying about.

Not saying that there's other things which are also very interesting, like technologically, you know that there are a lot of advancements. Then obviously, did the whole entire philosophical society rangle that with IT, you know and which then again, but for me kind of also hints es on Price. You know, a lot of things that i've been contemplating, i've also been reading or a writing, I would say, on a book, you and this one chapter where we kind of also think about how big coin will will change society and and IT always came down back to Price.

You know, if Price keeps all appreciating and a lot more people will think about IT and and a lot more things will make sense, a lot more products will make sense. You 然后 also microstrip gy， if or Michael sailor if he's honest, a lot of his assumptions are really built upon the assumption that the Price is rising. And I think it's just fine, you know.

But so this is something which is interesting kind of, you know factory this in at some point in some parts, the Price is really important in some part is also more than the prize, this dual thing, you know, where I never really sure some day, some days, I feel like the Price is more important than I feel so excited about that. Some days I feel like it's not important because the other aspects are way more important. And it's really this mixture of of both that kind of make IT so interesting. So yeah, that's how I also think about our Price, not about like quite quantitative targets, but more the importance of Price and and just how IT interacts with, with all the things where we're projecting into big on as well.

Yeah IT does effect ate the self fulfill profession where pick winners have a view of the future and where they would like to take the world um by leveraging their bitcoin, not leveraging up, but like using bitcoin to make the world a Better place. And I think well, we started the conversation on as a perfect example at the presidential election in the U S.

In the fact that the idea of a bitcoin strategic reserves, even on the table, I would argue, and I think many others would argue, is a product to the fact that bitcoin Price got to a certain point where individual bitcoin ers had enough wealth to donate to particular politicians and get in the room to paint the picture of bitcoin and help with policy where, like, you may not care about political power, obviously the the libertarian, many in the liberal and circle at all will say not worth playing the game. Don't vote like just changed, be a markets but you may not care about political power. Political power cares about you.

And I think this election is the first in which bitcoin, or some of us at least, recognize that use bitcoin to get in the room to get bitcoin policy on. And I get the yourself for filling prophecies. As you do that, you get the goal, you convince the government to buy back when the person gonna people more and then you have this number go up, enables you to build the future that you that you want um but you .

yeah ah now that's that's true. I mean, for me, I was always, I was always, I was also growing up as a through liberta and you know, and then at some point that was a classical philosophical inner case. You know, grilly a disguise or not not liking government, you know, that match and really discuss, that's what I wanted to say, you know about government and what's happening but then as you grow older, um I mean yeah your perspective kind of changes but nowadays what's so great I mean I still get to be some some sort of of libertarian you know which is really are also anchored in in as we discuss in the beginning, you know, market driven a tendencies and developments like bitcoin, like prediction markets, like all of these types of things, you know. But at the same time, you have this this tool now that you can wield and and try to make them Better.

Um maybe at the margins, you know because I was always like um if if you are this philosophical anarchist, in the end, if I look back, my real world impact was probably quite diminished and quite a small you know and then I always have the argument, yeah if you if none of us is like a philosophical anarchist, you'll then the mind of people never changes and and then we all always, things are gonna stay the same. But I kind of back away from this theory because I think guy is IT is important that we act in the real world and and make changes at the margins probably. And now we just get to do IT with big coin, you know, and that's what gives me so much hope, you know, if I if all I earned around and and and I would have to double in politics and try to change things, I mean, I would be a less, a lot less a like h into optimistic, you know, if if IT weren't for big code book nowadays? Ys, like this interesting mixture, you know where, as you said, they're speak on the tool.

IT can help you. You can kind elaborate to kind of change the system. And and now we're seeing IT playing IT. We're seeing IT play out in real time, probably with this election that just happened yesterday. So that's that's certainly again something which I find quite interesting.

Yeah, we're gona win. We're going to in, this was fun. Any any final thoughts you think we should leave the freaks west before you rap up here?

Well, no, I think all has been sad. Thanks a lot for having me. And i'll see, I think the next few days we're gonna interesting. I hope that we're gonna A A free ross announcement soon by the trump campaign.

This would be a another great example, you know, of of how we could actually change the world at the marching, you know, because, like I would just be amazing to kind of part of somebody like him bring out of government prison, you know, and then also donate a whole bunch of big going to him that he will never have to work again. And so then IT would just be like us in conjunction with these people at government, making somebody's life again and a lot Better. And then I would say this is already has already been worth IT, uh, this this whole thing that we're doing here. So yeah, IT would would be great to hear something like this in the next few days, weeks. So I have my fingers crossed that we're not gna get disappointed here.

Yeah, it's gona be fun. It's already fun. This is gonna an incredible year for for winners. I wear for the industry. Seems like for the united states to, and hopefully for OSS all bricks and free us there exactly .

peace and love for this.

okay.