cover of episode 233. Terry Gilliam (Jason Plays Favorites #5) – the impossible dream

233. Terry Gilliam (Jason Plays Favorites #5) – the impossible dream

2020/3/7
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Think Again - a Big Think Podcast

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Jason Gots
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Michelle Thaler
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Terry Gilliam
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Jason Gots: 我认为特里·吉列姆的创作动力源于秩序与混沌之间的张力,以及对矛盾的接纳,这体现了人类生存状态。他认为人生的关键在于全身心投入当下热爱的事物,避免陷入自我焦虑。他将制作大制作电影的过程比作与熵对抗,充满挑战和意外,需要极大的毅力。他高度评价了吉列姆的抗压能力和对挑战的接纳。 Jason Gots: 吉列姆的电影《杀死唐吉坷德》和《渔王》之间存在着某种象征性的联系,都探讨了艺术创作与罪恶感的关系。他认为艺术家应该对作品的影响负责,并承担由此产生的罪恶感。他赞扬了年轻一代的理想主义和行动力,但也表达了对社交媒体负面影响的担忧。 Jason Gots: 他认为艺术家在创作低谷期需要经历痛苦才能获得新的灵感,并询问吉列姆如何应对创作过程中的低谷期。 Terry Gilliam: 我的创作动力源于秩序与混沌之间的张力,以及对矛盾的接纳,这确实反映了人类生存状态。我认为人生的关键在于全身心投入当下热爱的事物,避免陷入自我焦虑。制作大制作电影的过程如同与熵对抗,充满挑战和意外,需要极大的毅力,但我是一位宿命论者,总是预想到事情会出错,并坦然接受。我喜欢挑战,并善于寻找解决问题的办法。 Terry Gilliam: 《爱丽丝梦游仙境》是我的灵感来源,其荒诞性反映了人生的本质。我批评了蒂姆·波顿版本的《爱丽丝梦游仙境》,认为其缺乏荒诞的精髓。我认为自己是混沌木偶和秩序木偶的结合体,两者互相依存。人生的趣味在于创造与毁灭之间的冲突,如同印度女神卡莉。 Terry Gilliam: 我承认自己的电影存在某种相似性,都探讨了罪恶感、浪漫和爱情等主题。我认为艺术家应该对作品的影响负责,并承担由此产生的罪恶感。我在印度看到了人们在贫困中展现出的优雅和韧性,并对比了美国和印度的社会状态,认为等级制度在一定程度上维持了社会的稳定。我赞扬了罗莎·帕克斯的勇气,认为她的反抗带来了新的秩序。 Terry Gilliam: 我认为对抗熵需要付出代价,并表达了对纽约的负面感受。我对人类破坏地球行为的担忧,并认为人类可能是一个失败的物种。我对未来抱有希望,并认为年轻一代将带来改变。我高度评价了乔纳森·普莱斯和亚当·德赖弗在《杀死唐吉坷德》中的表演。 Terry Gilliam: 我描述了《杀死唐吉坷德》这部电影的创作过程,以及剧本的修改历程。我表达了对漫威电影的担忧,认为其可能会影响人们对现实的认知。我认为只要能区分神话和现实,现代神话本身没有问题。我认为电影中的暴力元素可能会加剧人们的无力感和挫折感。 Terry Gilliam: 我认为唐吉坷德代表了一种纯粹的英雄主义,而非霸凌。我认为英雄主义可能会让人感到自卑,并讨论了现代社会中对英雄的看法。我解释了电影中加入角色受损的元素的原因,这源于《布莱恩的一生》的拍摄经历。 Terry Gilliam: 我认为在创作低谷期需要触底反弹,并通过阅读等方式寻找新的灵感。我通过体力劳动来应对创作低谷期。我认为人生的意义在于创造和不断进步。我认为摆脱自我很重要,并期待新的灵感。 Michelle Thaler: 时间是相对的,其流逝速度会受到运动速度的影响。光速运动的物体不经历时间流逝。爱因斯坦的时空理论认为时间和空间是相互关联的。宇宙大爆炸创造了所有的时间和空间。

Deep Dive

Key Insights

What is Terry Gilliam's approach to handling challenges and chaos in filmmaking?

Terry Gilliam embraces chaos and challenges as part of the filmmaking process. He describes himself as a fatalist, always expecting things to go wrong, which helps him remain calm when they do. He thrives on adrenaline, which drives him to act decisively and find creative solutions to obstacles, such as finding ways around 'brick walls' that block his path.

Why does Terry Gilliam compare filmmaking to Don Quixote's battles?

Gilliam compares filmmaking to Don Quixote's battles because both involve an 'impossible dream' and a constant struggle against entropy. Filmmaking, like Don Quixote's quest, is filled with challenges such as studio interference, financial constraints, and unpredictable events like natural disasters, yet it requires unwavering faith in the final product.

What is the significance of 'The Man Who Killed Don Quixote' in Terry Gilliam's career?

'The Man Who Killed Don Quixote' is significant in Gilliam's career as it represents a 30-year struggle to bring the project to life. The film, starring Adam Driver and Jonathan Pryce, is layered like a Russian matryoshka doll, exploring themes of art, guilt, and the folly of belief. It reflects Gilliam's persistence and his ability to turn personal and professional setbacks into creative triumphs.

How does Terry Gilliam view the role of guilt in his films?

Gilliam sees guilt as a central theme in his films, particularly in 'The Man Who Killed Don Quixote' and 'The Fisher King.' He explores how art and creativity can unintentionally harm lives, leading to a sense of responsibility and moral reckoning. This theme ties back to his Christian upbringing, which emphasizes punishment, suffering, and atonement.

What is Terry Gilliam's perspective on the relationship between chaos and order?

Gilliam believes that chaos and order are intertwined and essential to life. He identifies with both 'chaos Muppets' and 'order Muppets,' seeing himself as someone who thrives on the tension between the two. He likens this dynamic to the Hindu god Kali, who is both creator and destroyer, emphasizing that this conflict is what makes life interesting and meaningful.

How does Terry Gilliam describe his creative process between projects?

Gilliam describes his creative process between projects as a cycle of intense focus followed by a period of 'postnatal depression' or creative slumps. He acknowledges the need to hit bottom before finding inspiration again. During these times, he engages in manual labor, such as building stone walls, to stay grounded and productive while waiting for the next idea to take hold.

What is Terry Gilliam's opinion on the impact of modern myths like superhero films?

Gilliam worries that modern myths, such as superhero films, remove the pain and consequences from their narratives, creating a disconnect from reality. He contrasts this with older myths, like those of Don Quixote, which emphasize the complexities and struggles of heroism. He believes that recognizing these stories as myths, rather than reality, is crucial to understanding their impact.

How does Terry Gilliam view his role as a director in the collaborative filmmaking process?

Gilliam sees his role as a director as that of a ringleader who orchestrates the collaborative efforts of a team. While he takes credit or blame for the final product, he emphasizes that filmmaking is a collective endeavor. He values working with talented individuals and believes that the best films emerge from shared creativity and problem-solving.

What is Terry Gilliam's take on the concept of heroism in his films?

Gilliam views heroism as a noble and old-fashioned concept that he explores in his films. Characters like Don Quixote and Harry Tuttle in 'Brazil' embody a purity of vision and a commitment to ideals, even if they are flawed or misunderstood. He believes that heroism, when done right, is about using power intelligently and for good, rather than dominating others.

How does Terry Gilliam approach the subjective experience of time in filmmaking?

Gilliam recognizes that time is perceived differently depending on the viewer's engagement with a film. When a film resonates with an audience, time seems to fly, whereas a boring film feels interminably long. He uses pacing and editing to manipulate the audience's experience of time, aiming to create moments where viewers are fully absorbed and lose their sense of the clock.

Shownotes Transcript

[From February through March 22, 2020 (his last day hosting Think Again) Jason will be revisiting favorite past episodes. Jason's new show, starting May 12th, is Clever Creature with Jason Gots).]

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Faith in anything is its own special form of madness.

It’s a challenge to entropy, and entropy takes no challenge lightly. If there’s any better metaphor for this struggle than trying to make a big budget movie with even a shred of integrity, I haven’t found it.

On the one hand, you’ve got this impossible dream. This faith in the beautiful thing that’s supposed to emerge at at the end of the process. On the other hand, the process is a hellish sausage-making machine of studio bosses, financing, and acts of god like four days of flash flooding in the middle of your big shoot. You might as well be Don Quixote, doing battle with a windmill.

What kind of masochist would put themselves through that?

My guest today, Terry Gilliam), is that very masochist. And we should be grateful, because his stomach for the fight has given us movies like THE FISHER KING, BRAZIL, 12 MONKEYS and MONTY PYTHON’s THE LIFE OF BRIAN. And now, almost 30 years after his first, biblically disastrous attempt to make it, THE MAN WHO KILLED DON QUIXOTE). Starring Adam Driver and Jonathan Pryce, the movie is as funny, thrilling, and unpretentiously deep as the best of Gilliam’s work. It’s also kind of like one of those Russian matryoshka dolls: a film inside a film inside a film, all of them metaphors for the holy folly of believing in anything at all.

*The Man Who Killed Don Quixote is out April 19th in select theaters and on demand video. *

**Surprise conversation starters in this episode: **

Michelle Thaller on whether time is real or an illusion)

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