Can Hot Bricks Save the World? (The Solar Era, Part 2)
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So Jenny chase, who's arguably the foremost solar analyst in the world, recently said, by twenty thirty, in the middle the day, essentially everywhere in the world, this is a cloudy day. Electricity is free.

SHE told me that at nine today, I interviewed her, five hours.

Go, seven hours. great. So now that we live in that world, like, like people don't get how profound a transformation that is.

I'm jack gold stein, and this is what's your problem. I hope you listen to last week episode where I did, in fact, talk to solar expert Jenny chase about how solar energy got so cheap. That was the first of three shows were doing on the triumph of solar power today.

And next week i'm going to be talking to people who have very big plans for what to do with that very cheap or even free intermitted solar energy. My guess today is john udal. He wants to use cheap solar and wind energy to solve one of the biggest unsolved problems in the energy transition, heat, industrial heat, delivering the reliable, intense heat that companies around the world need to make.

Everything from steel beams to t shirts. Today, companies burn fossil fuel to generate that heat. John is the cofounder of rondo energy, a company that john things has figured out an economical way to turn internet electricity into industrial heat. Johna started companies before, and at the beginning of our conversation, he told me one of the most important and really kind of surprising lessons that he learned from those earlier. Companies innovate .

as little as you can if the technology is going to make a difference. One of the important question is not just how quickly can I develop IT and make a first unit, but how quickly can I make IT bankable? How quickly can I make IT suitable for billion dollar infrastructure investments? And IT is a very high standard to be able to prove reliability, durability, certainty of deploy ability. And there are lots of material science research groups, folks who are trying to work on innovations at an individual cell level, who don't really necessarily understand the chAllenge that customers by systems bankers, by infrastructure that we know will last for thirty years. And IT was with that rigorous focus of what is the simplest, most proven thing that we could do that let us down the path that where that we chose um because we found a path that others had opened two hundred years ago that you know we found a way to reuse a technology from the eighteen fifties with a physics insight that let us use these proven materials in this new way to solve this chAllenge.

I love the idea that innovation is not your friend like that. Such a it's such a flip, right? It's like the others razor of starting an energy transition company or something.

Well, that's right. And you know we've saw this go back to clean tech one point to go back to two thousand five, where there were companies that we're gonna pv out of anything but silicon because .

we knew silicon was expensive for.

and everybody knew that. So everybody, quote on quote, knew that the simple dumb thing that we've been doing for a long time, silicon wasn't going to get cheap enough. And then china put capital into reducing the cost of making polysilicon, just build more production.

The cost of public silicon fell seventy percent in one year. And today, just because of rights law, just because of learning curve, the simplest technology became the dominant one. Today we see dozens of alternate battery chemistries in electric chemical .

batteries to natives to the that's .

right are facing that same. Okay, how fast can litham I an improve and IT continues to improve Better than anyone forecasts. And um again, in our case, we are doing the absolute simplest thing and IT is a solution that we know for sure works.

So so you mentioned you came up with this idea that is a version of a two hundred year old idea. What's the big idea? What's that idea?

Up until about ten years ago, most of the energy storage in the world was at blast furnace. In the eighteen fifties, there was an innovation that reduced coal use at a blast furnace by building a tower with a thousand tons of brick within IT with air passages. The exhaust from the blast furness blows through that tower, heats the brick to fifteen hundred and sea. Then things were switched around. The exhaust is being passed through another tower, and the powerful of hot brick air is being sucked through that tower and preheated to twelve hundred and sea into the fairness to save cold.

So so basically when they burn coal to like, make iron, they take the exhaust heat that comes out of the furness. They use that to heat up bricks, and then later they feed that heat from the bricks back into the furness. And IT makes the plan essentially .

run more efficiently. That's right. And we had a physics insight that if we built a particular structure, we could use the same technology, that is, in your toaster, a very small amount of heating elements are delivering heat by radiation, thermal radiation and heating in the whole surface of the bread uniformally.

If we built the right structure, we could embed electrical heating elements in a structure of brick with air passages, and heat that brick relected rapidly and uniformly to very high temperatures, and then pull heat out of IT, just the way the blast forest units do cool air in superheated air out. And with superheated air, we can drive a cement kill, or we can drive a boiler and makes team for making everything from baby food to chemicals. And that unlocked using this abundant, you know, brick is basically made from dirt, certain kind play.

Yeah, no critical minerals and an unrefined material. I mean, that's one of the things about tesla wrote report last year. They're so called master plan three, their forecast for stationary storage, their assessment was the world is going to have twice as much heat battery as electric chemical battery storage.

But that this is category ally. So much lower cost because it's using raw materials, not refined materials because is not doing any chemistry of any kind. It's the same technologies just .

making stuff heart. It's just eating .

bricks so you can use raw materials exactly. yeah.

So okay. So so just a kind of summarize. There is a big problem in the world. Industry y's burn fossil fuel for heat to make almost everything, steel, cement, close, whatever. You have this idea that the kind of solution of the problem, we can use intermitten, cheap, renewable electricity to heat up bricks, and use those bricks essentially to provide that heat. Um what do you have to do to industrialize IT to to make IT .

a thing in the world? So step by step, one of our, one of our engineering team members in his last job was working on moxy hypersonic missile. He now does computational fluid simulations on air moving IT about four miles an hour.

And the chAllenge is just as high. We could not do what we're doing without modern computer systems that let us do detailed simulations of all the structure and behavior. But step by step, IT was really identifying, okay, which materials, which manufacturing processes, what geometry.

And we built a series of things that fit on a desktop, to things that look like an industrial refrigerator, to things that are just multiply by you about ten x. And right now, we're doing the fifty x step as we go from the first commercial pilot unit to the first serious manufacturing of the the commercial models. There are plenty of different steps along the way.

This thing, as I said earlier, how do we innovate as little as possible, as much as necessary, but as little as possible? And how do we pick sub systems and partners so that we are certain we can go to a massive scale? Because, like, speed is the most important thing. One of the studies of this class of heat batteries, their finding was, yeah, this is going to eliminate about twenty percent of total world seo. Two, when IT gets to scale OK to one first.

that is a lot.

It's gonna reduce the cost of manufacturing all the commodities that we use. So let's get to IT. Let's how do we get there as fast as possible in .

a way for something to scale that fast, IT has to be cheaper, right? The only way something can grow that fast is if it's just cheaper and and simple, right? IT has to be those things. Other, the wise IT won't .

grow fast as long as there is some sort of premium or higher cost, IT will go as slowly as possible if you're in a razor thin margin commodity business. Yeah, the last thing you want is to increase your cost of production. Your customers may go elsewhere.

Yeah but but if there is as no emission solution that will reduce to your cost of production, yeah private markets, huge flows of private capital will drive IT to scale. If if it's ready, if IT really does meet what IT says IT does, if it's safe. I mean, there are lots of things that we and as I said earlier, that is IT proven enough the infrastructure capital can apply.

which is just the most sort of conservative, cautious capital they want to make sure. Not just that IT works, but that will work every day for thirty years.

That's right. And of course, the we saw the solar industries as each technology became bankable, enormous explosion and growth as financial engineers joined, you know, manufacturing engineers and built an industry that meets everybody's that is the opportunity we have right now, this new class of supplying the energy for industrial heat. If you just do a units conversion, it's about seven thousand gieger ots.

It's many times more renewables that exist in the world today that will be needed in this new market segment. And grid researchers, notably Jesse Jenkins at princeton, have identified that when these technologies are connected to the grid, they help the grit. They make IT more robust. They help more renewables connect because it's a new special class of load. So there there's a virtuous cycle well and it's optimize .

to what to use energy at a time when there's too much energy right like that, the whole point, right?

And in order for that to really work, because lots people say they going to do that. But in order for that to really work, you really have to be something that can take energy only a few hours a day. yeah.

You have to be able to Operate at low capacity factor, have a low cost per kilo water. And I as I think I mentioned, the technology we use for capturing electricity is the same one that is in your toaster. IT is literally a hot wire, and IT is difficult to get cheaper than a hot wires.

So these play a unique role in being kind of a bottom feeder that's taking electricity that nobody else wants. Um yes, that as a result, eliminating curtAiling em, making renewables that are serving the grid more profitable because they can sell all their energy. This new kind of load is going to transform the grids, is connected to.

So curtailed ment is like turning off solar panels in the middle of the day because there's not enough to make. Basically, that's what curtailment is.

Yes, england, through away fifty five percent of the wind power availed the scotland border last year.

You had to put some bricks over there, man, you to put some hot bricks on the skyline order yeah so tell me about the um the pilot plant that you have, right? That you have built a pilot plant. Is that correct?

Yeah, we built a first, a small unit for a customer who is an innovator in using low carbon BIOS fuels. The goal is a couple of yet large units that eliminate all the combustion at the refinery. And they said, show us we were keen to work with them in a longer term.

And we were also on a journey. We were preparing to build a first commercial unit for another customer that holds a hundred maggo one hours. We had built things in the lab that hold two hundred kilowatt hours. And it's two bigger step that's like .

about a thousand four leap of five hundred .

four five hundred yeah yeah. So let's build something in between. And in particular, um the work that we had to doing in the lab, we had recognized, okay, we have the geometry, we have the materials, but we aren't making the thing the way that it's gonna be easy to construct.

We want makes the core a different way and we want to actually test build something of the full commercial implementation before we go to build a big one. And that was the genocide that said why we want to do this project. And over the last year, to half little more than that now, we've learned a ton from Operating there, from going through catastrophic Green storms that flooded the side and flooded the substation. And, you know, a variety of things that were unpredictable, but that had been valuable learning experiences as well.

So what's IT just what's IT .

look like this thing is a is a box that contains, uh, ten tons of brick storing two mega hours of energy OK. Each brick is about a one media cube in terms of its size that has open chAmbers that are in which light moves head around and find slots in the breakthrough, which air passages? It's a complicated looking object, but it's about a media cube in IT ways, about a ton, so which are about a .

half a ton each. Each brick, you say each brick, and you say it's a little cuban .

IT is a sing a single brick, okay? Part of the journey was learning how to make big ones so that the assembly at sight would be very quick inside that structure of brick or electrical heaters that are passing through passages inside that bricy. It's surrounded by an insulated box, which is surrounded by an insulated kind of shed. And IT looks like a small industrial building. On the outside, it's got water pipes and steam pipes at one side in an electrical connection of the other 人。

In a minute, john talks about building plants around the world right now.

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So you have this pilot plant is running. What do you worried about? Well, what are you still trying to figure out?

Well, today we are in contract in in construction in one, two, three, four, five countries on projects making cement, polyster, whisky, beer, polar carbon of plastic and biofeedback are struggling to grow the company rapidly. Were about one hundred and fifty people in seven countries right now establishing construction relationships with, you know, construction companies for in all of those five countries.

There are plenty of things at this point of you stretching at the seems. We've just only just a few months ago concluded, uh, establishment of a european subsidy with financing from the european investment bank and breakthrough energies project finance team that have created an enormous financial engineering capability and legal capability inside our company that almost killed us. We we that we are .

part bricks are easy. Finance and legal is hard.

Yeah good. All that depends where you are. But at the moment, yes, that's right. Because IT was about a year ago that we established, uh, giant manufacturing capacity with one of our early investors who is a diversified producer of many things, including this refractory brick doing business in sixty countries.

So part of IT has been establishing proving the initial that the thing works, then establishing manufacturing capacity, establishing delivery capacity, the ability of finance projects. There's more than one answer to your question depending on what perspective that you look. And right now, we're engaged in all of him.

So it's execution risk. If I were to reduce what you're say, it's like you figured out how to do the thing. But doing IT is hard doing IT in in five countries.

And I mean, presumably also like the thing like you have to spend a lot of money now, but in order to get sort of steady returns over twenty years, right? That's your model. You're building these things and then you're selling the heat over the life of the thing. Is that the way that .

works for about half of our projects? That is the way that works well. But you're right, we're spending a lot of money now.

And part of what we're doing, of course, these early projects are proving the technology in that place in that applying with that construction partner. So we're setting the grounds for hyper growth and establishing that bankability criteria that I mentioned earlier. And IT takes a lot of work to get the first one done.

But if we've done that right with that partner in that country, we will step and repeat. And there are these giant markets where we are in the money, and there are a lot of people who want to be customer number two or three. But to your point, for some of our projects, we are a technology provider where we are building something in, in turning the keys over to the customer. And in others, we are the owner Operate and we are selling energy services, not energy equipment.

Basically, you you you on the bricks or they on the bricks, I think, are those the two models you're describing?

More, less? yeah. So there several ways that customers will bring these things in. And in some cases, it's because, look, the heat battery is in the middle of their Peter chemical complex. They want to own everything in that square mile factory facility. In other cases, no, we're going to be establish something that's right next door and sell steam over the fence. Um that's just the nature of this business, and we're standing ourselves up to do business the way that the market needs us to.

You use the phrase in the money, does that mean it's cheaper for them to buy heat from you than to use fossil field to generate? Is that what in the money means in that content?

Yes, that's true. Every single project, and that is yes, exactly.

Is regulation a problem for you at all? Is that benefit you like kind of regulation fit with your business?

We're using a new fuel. We're using electricity in a fundamentally new way, right? And um the rules that the world has around electricity networks need update, you know. And we hear an awful lot about the chAllenges of connecting renewable generation to electricity grids and the delays and the the the sort of structural conflict between we want, at least cost electricity network, but we need one that Operates with these fundamentally new sources of generation.

What's gone on so far with lithium batteries, in particular, has begun to address the matter of how do we connect these internal loads, how do we connect loads that benefit the electricity grid? And this matter is a very big deal, country by country, nevertheless, just made a rules change. Denmark made a rules change in April last year.

We had a project contractor in october. Germany is, and england have just made rules, changes in some places. The rules like an arcot in texas already work. I'm speaking to you from california, where d carbon zone is both Mandatory and the grid rules in california, you make IT impossible to connect projects like hours. And we're building our next california project with no connection at all at all to the electricity grid for that reason.

basically just because they wouldn't let you if you wanted to. Well.

and he was going to take seven years to get a connection and the Price would the Price of the grid service alone exceeds the cost of fuel so that even if the solar energy were free IT, the economics could not work. So yeah, their places where the rules matter. And IT is mostly a matter of sort of modernizing the rules to think of deal with today's these fundamentally new technologies that were not conceived when today's rules were established.

Steve two, who was obama's energy secretary after he won the nobel prize, you know, he used to go around giving a talk ing, the united states does electricity today, the way we did roads in one thousand and thirty nine. And he's right about state transmission and all sorts of things. But these things are being worked at the same time as our technology and others are coming to the four because five, ten years from now, I think going to be widely understood that all of industry is going to be recovered on electricity.

Electrify everything is the way we make this transition to a lower cost world that is zero emission. And i'm very encouraged that, that process is underway. Bunch of places, and there are different pieces to get out of the way and to enable that transition on that journey. And i'm delighted that you know, there are other folks building heat batteries and heat pumps and electoral zer and all sorts of things that collection as well as electrochemical batteries, that collection those technologies, the winners will find their way to scale. But these regulatory matters need to be adJusting for any of them to deploy.

We'll be back in a minute with the light run.

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trying to solve when we think about emergency events. And really at the majority of the world, the primary tool set that firefighters use is a radio to communicate their status to the outside Operation. Pretty reasonable to expect that people can become disoriented. So when I realized that technology was important was when I realized that many of the most vaccine healthcare chAllenges that we saw in my own family, we realized that there was just significant lack of resources.

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helping others succeed in life?

Hockey place, please raise hands, please. Okay, jeffrey, the answer .

is teaching great job.

The needs teachers .

more than ever.

especially in bilingual education, especially education.

and in rural and urban areas.

So if you're looking for a great job.

get started and become a teacher that come.

Um our ten and bicycles overrated or underwater. I have three .

in my backyard. End of bicycles are fantastic.

Why why does the world not comes attend of bicycles? What do you know that .

nobody else knows most of my eyes then with my kids, especially when my kids were Younger, I was a way of doing centuries when, you know, they will did like, senses you pedal .

one hundred miles and they coasted. I .

wasn't like that, but there were allegations of that different time. Who said him back? My kids, but yeah, you know my wife isn't as excited about tank and bicycles as I am. So I understand there's there's a diversity of opinions on this topic.

Um i've read that you're also a pilot and I saw a quote from someone who once flew with you and they called flying with you you know i'm going to say they called IT one of the scariest and most exhilarating flights i've ever had um and I just wanna give you a chance to comment on that yeah we .

were on our way to particularly site where to a meeting where we're going to go testify against the construction of a coal plant in a particularly spot. And we chose a around that went fairly close to a peak on our way they are in the batta. And because .

he was straight line, you were just like, well.

let's go just level we were right a mile away, but we were level with the peak. And he'd liked to that or he could both got excited .

and terrifying. Yeah so you worked on nuclear refused long ago and people are still working on nuclear refuse. Do you think it'll ever work in a meaningful way? You think the economics of IT will ever make sense? Even if we figure out the science?

There are people who know much more about that than I do. They should ask that question. I was building computer systems for the instrumentation group. Um but every problem that existed, every single one of the horrific material science chAllenges, whatever there are folks there are very smart folks working on those things.

But you ask the right question, is there a chance that IT will be economical given what's going on in energy storage, right, that the world has consistently unpredicted how fast that would come down in cost, that we have consistently and predicted how fast wind and solar come down in cost, it's very difficult to see. Health fusion will compete with free and of course, baseload technologies that can deliver us energy all the time are super attractive. But you have to look at the whole system. And again, there are people who know much more about that than I do.

What's one thing about energy at any level could be on the level of basic physics or not, that you wish everybody .

knew we can have this energy transition that we talk about right now. And IT is the greatest business opportunity of our lifetime. And we have the technologies to do about eighty percent of what we need to do.

And the technologies basically are at hand. You know, we have the tools to drive to this transition. And ten and twenty years ago, there was this belief that the Green transition, for example, the energy transition, was going to make us all poor.

IT was gone to be a burden to those in developing countries that I was gonna, you know, take away wealth. And we are now at this moment where the thing I wish people knew was that, look, these technologies are cheaper and we can go faster. And there are spectacular opportunities to drive change and go faster than the world needs to, to achieve paris and a safer climate.

And most people don't know that there is A, I hear often, kind of a sense of hopelessness. There's nothing we can do. It's gonna a longer than we want.

And it's like guys, we just put our heads together. We have the tools to do this. It's profitable to do this. Let's get to IT.

Johna donal is the cofounder of rondo energy. Next week, i'll talk with rough hie. Garabedian, cofounder of electric hydrogen rough's company, has raised hundreds of millions of dollars and is trying to turn all of that cheap internet energy from solar and wind power into hydrogen, that hydrogen could be used for everything from making fertilizer to powering container ships.

Today's was produced by Gabriel hundred chang IT was edited by litigant cot and engineered by cerebro. There you can email us at problem at push in dot F M. I'm jack seen, and we will be back next week with another episode of what's your problem.

The holiday season is back, which means it's a time for giving sub run. Its retailers believe in giving back to those who need IT most. For the past fifteen years, suburb has made the act of buying a subaru during the holiday season and active love. When you purchase or least a new subaru during the subaru u share the love event, subaru u in its retailers donate a minimum of three hundred dollars to charity. By the end of this year's event, super units retailers will have donated nearly three hundred and twenty million dollars to national and hometown charities to learn more, go to subaru dot com slash share sub u more than a car company.

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Now, who here can tell me one career that offers great energy, competitive pay and the joy of helping .

others succeed in life? Hockey play, please.

Raise hands, please. Okay, jeff re, the answer .

is teaching.

Great job in I needs teachers .

more than ever.

especially in bilingual education.

especially education and in rural and urban areas.

So if you're looking for a great job.

get started and become a teacher. That com.