158. Brewing a Legacy: The Twinings Story with Stephen Twining
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备忘录的听友们大家好,练英文的机会又来咯! 备忘录很关注的一个话题是品牌。 在大环境充满挑战的当下,我对于那些经历过更巨大危机,但是生存下来,而且依然屹立不摇的品牌充满了好奇。 我好奇他们成功的秘诀是什么?

我很幸运在英国的时候采访到了已经有 300 多年历史的 Twinings,川宁茶公司的品牌大使,Steven Twinings 先生,他是川宁家族的第十代成员。

这期节目中,Steven 和我们分享了川宁三百多年不平凡的历程。 我们还探讨了川宁对中国市场的战略,以及年轻消费者族群当中不断演变的趋势。 Steven 不仅提供了对川宁品牌韧性和传承的洞见,还强调了在品牌创新的过程当中,保持品牌价值和相关性的重要性。

无论你是茶叶的爱好者,创业者,还是希望从历史当中寻找答案的人, 这一期节目都将为你带来很多宝贵的启示。 我们依旧准备了音频的文字稿和翻译稿, 可以在备忘录加公众号该期推文当中获取。 最后我们感谢 Twinings 还为我们的听友准备了他们的新品, 川宁蜂蜜味露意波式花草茶和川宁柠檬干浆花草茶。

Thank you so much for being on my show. When I first contacted Anna, I wasn't expecting a reply. And I wasn't expecting anyone with a Twinings last name to be my guest. You're the 10th generation of Twinings, right? Right.

I have that great pleasure and privilege. Oh, my God. So I'm so flattered and so honored. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for inviting me. Right. So the purpose of doing this series is really to learn from brand like 20 years with so many and more than 300 years of history.

And then you've been through so many global events and crises, but you're still standing very strong, right? There must be a secret recipe or key to success that you survive all these global events and crises and still doing so strongly globally. Because China at the moment is going through their first cycle and a lot of the brands are struggling.

And a lot of the brands, when they first started, they all had the aspiration of being more than 100 years old, right? But the first cycle, they're already finding it very difficult. So I thought I wanted to start this series so that we can learn from reputable brands and historical brands like yourself. So this is the purpose and the background.

Excellent. So I guess the question is there is how do we get to be 300 years old? Exactly. How did you start? How did your family start? So, yes, so we need to go back to a gentleman called Thomas Trining.

we think, 10 generations before he started in tea. The family were in the wool trade in the west of the country, over in Gloucestershire and Worcestershire. And the wool trade was going through a major recession. So Thomas, his father, decided to move the whole family to London, his older brother and his other siblings. And he would then get an apprenticeship from

as a weaver and carry on the family tradition of being in the wool trade. He did that for a short period of time, but obviously it didn't suit him, and then got a job with an East India merchant, an East India company, where they only had a monopoly on trade with the East, whether it was silk or tea or porcelain, whatever it was, they had a 100% monopoly.

And he was working for one of their customers in London. And this customer, Thomas de Barthe, was buying very small quantities of tea. And that's no doubt where Thomas learnt about this wonderful stuff. But at the age of 31, he wanted to be his own boss.

And 300, 350 years ago in the city of London, the financial district it is, that was London. We estimate there were over 2,000 coffee houses. They were the rage because if Peter and I were going to meet to do business, we didn't have offices. So we'd meet in the coffee house, do our business over a cup of coffee. And certainly there were places where you ladies would never come because by this time of the day, if we felt so inclined, we might be having a brandy or an Arak or a

whatever. And therefore, if we stayed too long, and a lot of men stay till the early hours of the following morning, shall we say, our behavior might be a little impaired. Therefore, you as a lady would be terribly shocked. Therefore, the ladies imposed a self-imposed ban. They just wouldn't go into a coffeehouse full stop. But anyway, Thomas buys a coffeehouse just outside the city of London in the city of Westminster.

It's called coffee houses, not necessarily only coffee, right? They were sometimes called the penny universities because the coffee house owner would...

They would have different things to attract different clientele. So they weren't all competing. So there was one that specialised in being a centre for artists. The Lloyds Insurance Market started as a coffee house because Mr Lloyd would list out the ships that were going to be sailing and the cargoes they were carrying. So the insurance underwriters would meet in his coffee house, drink his coffee and keep him in business. So they all had their little speciality. But there's a lot of competition, you can imagine.

So Thomas chose to sell fine quality tea, something he'd learned about, which was different, as well as coffee in his coffee house. Now, tea had really been introduced to this country in 1662. There were tiny amounts before that. When our King Charles married a Portuguese princess, and the Portuguese discovered tea well before the Brits,

And she was an absolute tea lover. And so she brought tea to the London Court. And it's a bit like the Kate effect, what Kate does. Yesterday we wanted to do today. And so the wealthy immediately started but wanted to buy tea. So it became the preserve of wealthy and aristocratic ladies.

So here is Thomas selling tea in a coffee house that a lady can't come into because she wants to buy it, take it home, serve it to her guests. She has to wait outside in her carriage, sending a mail servant. And the penny drops with Thomas. And he's obviously reasonably successful because within the period of 11 years, he's able to buy two adjacent properties.

which he opens the world's first dry tea and coffee shop. Have you been to our shop in London? Not yet, but I saw a picture of it. Super, yeah. 216 Strand. These days it's 216 Strand. In those days it was the Golden Lions.

in Devro Court because the entrance wasn't on the strand. That didn't materialise until 1787. So, yes, now he's got a shop where a lady can enter in total respectability and his reputation...

grows for tea. He distanced himself from the coffee house. He let somebody else manage and run it. So it's on a separate ownership because the ladies didn't like the coffee houses. They had a social political agenda to get coffee houses closed down because the husband spent too long there, spent too much money there, drank too much there. So Thomas was now, if you like, a fully fledged tea retailer.

He then realized that his skill was not as a retailer. So he didn't expand the business by opening more stores around London or around the rest of the UK. He started to wholesale his teas to other coffee houses, to other specialist retailers. And that was his business model. It's still our business model.

Was it called Twanning's Tees already back then? Yes, it always comes with the golden lion because you didn't have a street address so you needed a symbol and he chose the golden lion. Golden lions always reflect quality and we think the lion, we can't prove this, but we think he was supplying tea to the monarch of the day and thus it's a regal beast and therefore that connection, but that is speculation.

So yes, he would call himself Thomas Twining's tea merchant. Right, okay. Yes. But what he set out once he'd made that big step was to establish a reputation for quality. So he wanted to do one thing really well, buy and blend. I mean mix. It's nothing to do with artificial. It's mixing different things together to get that consistency of taste. Yeah.

And that's what he wanted his reputation to be. And that became our philosophy. So we buy different teas, mix them. When you have your cup of Earl Grey or Lady Grey or your Lemon and Ginger, it always tastes the same because that's the flavour when you first go, oh, yes, that's lovely. Then you want more of it. So that is our raison d'etre. That's what we do really well. And that's why we have these special people called...

master tea tasters. And yeah, so that's it. It's simple philosophy. Do one thing, do one thing really well. Other tea companies in this country thought that owning the shipping would be a good idea because it cuts out a cost.

If your ship sinks, you're likely to go out of business because you probably haven't insured it for enough. So through all sorts of change of circumstances, tea companies diversified into other things. All the shipping became the main part of the business. They're becoming a shipping company rather than a tea company. And we just stuck to doing one thing and one thing really well.

buying and mixing of fine quality teas. Quaning's insistence on quality is, I think, still very much stands today. Absolutely. And I think, I don't know, hundreds of years ago, Thomas and then Daniel and then Mary. Yes. That's Daniel's wife. Yes. After Daniel passed away, Mary actually took over.

Yes. And I think she went through, or the company went through a bit of an economic depression or crisis as well back then. There was sort of a tea crisis when...

So just to explain how Mary came into the business, she was the daughter of a merchant. So yes, when her husband died, Daniel had made provision for her. But I should go back to Daniel because he started the second great tradition in our business, which was selling tea overseas. Controlled the quality from one place, but yes, you have customers all around the world. When

When he died, he'd made a provision. He had a business partner who was going to run the business until his sons were old enough to come into the business and take over. And obviously sufficient money for his widow to live on and to educate their children because they were quite small. And she was having none of that. She tore up the agreement, got rid of the business partner and said, I'm doing this, which is fantastic. Yeah. What a lady. And yes. So at this point in time,

tea was taxed to the tune of 119% because there were various lobby groups in this country that didn't welcome tea and they were powerful lobby groups. So yes, that made legitimate tea very expensive. We estimate, while she was in charge, that two-thirds of all the tea consumed in this country avoided that tax by being smuggled in.

But the smugglers weren't in it for the love of tea. They were purely in it for the money. And they would pay people to find dried twigs, dried leaves and other things. We'll leave it there. Add it to the tea. So a kilo of tea becomes a kilo and a half or two kilos of tea. But you can imagine the quality was awful. But no, she stuck to her husband and father-in-law's philosophy of quality, quality, quality and saw us through that very difficult time.

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But that's unusual because at the moment like I said China is going through a bit of a dip by the economy and a lot of businesses struggle. Yes. And a lot of the consumers also struggle because they're some of them got laid off or they have to take a pay cut so they don't have the kind of money that they have before to buy stuff. So there's a lot of price cut, a lot of price war. Yes.

I was reading your history. Imagine Mary back then was going through probably what we're going through in China as well. Yes. But she stuck with the quality. Yes. And she wouldn't compromise. Would not compromise. Absolutely not. And do you think that's very much still the tradition of this company? And that's why you survive more than 300 years? Absolutely. It takes ages to build a reputation and moments to lose it. Yeah.

There was a famous chain of jewelers in this country. The CEO stood up at the annual general meeting and said, "Some of my jewelry is cheaper than the Marks and Spencer sandwich." And that was it. He just called himself out and blew his business apart. So yes, you can go down market once, but that's it. It takes years and years and years to establish that reputation for quality and you don't let your customers down.

And Chuen In has been through so many generations. You're the 10th generation. Of course, the business was acquired by... Associated British Food. Yeah, Associated British Food in 1964. But before then, it was very much still run by the family. Oh, yes. There are several things about this business that I find amazing.

First of all, you know the 216 Strand Street, that's your first tea room. It still very much exists today. I would term it the first dry tea and coffee shop in the world because obviously there were tea

tea shops in China way before us, millennia ago. But the combination of the two, that was unusual. And so, yes, that was a world first. Yeah. At the main entrance, you've got this golden lion with two Chinese men sitting next to the lions, right? So almost like guarding the quality or the reputation of the company. And then your logo, the Twinings logo, has been around, I don't know,

for hundreds of years. 1787. Newer generation, when they took over the business, they probably want to change something, right? To sort of mark their statement, their legacy. How come this never happened? When you get something right and it still looks relevant, it doesn't look old-fashioned, it's moved with the times. Because I think if you do something, a classic,

then you don't need to to play with it and he he got it right and yes the only thing is i'm steven twining and therefore in english the t of mr twining becomes twinings with an apostrophe he didn't like the apostrophe just didn't think it looked good so he took it out and that's when the brand name twinings was established so yes in some packs around the world actually everyone's moving back to the original but we we've curved it we've

done different things but the Strand store has always maintained that logo. And yes, obviously the golden lion was put up because Thomas's original sign was the golden lion. He had one that was sitting like a dog if you like sitting up. So he laid it down and the two figures represent the trade we were in because in those days Indian tea hadn't even been thought of. But how did they fend off the pressure?

from maybe other family members or other shareholders maybe about, you know, maybe we should change a little bit. Yeah. So Mary's son, Richard, joined and I always put, so he's the third generation and I always have him down as the first of the volunteers. I'm sure

Daniel probably was a volunteer, but I can't prove it. I know Richard was. So he joined his mother in the business. And that also became part of the way the company and family think. I'm here because I love tea. My sister and my brother are tea drinkers, but they don't love tea. So his elder brother had actually, when Daniel was still alive, his elder brother had been brought into the tea business

and had no affinity with it at all. No, didn't excite him, didn't get him out of bed. He went off and became a very successful ecclesiastical scholar, religious scholar, and I think a bit of a composer too. But yeah, but that's what excited him. So I, as a child, was brought up, if you're lucky enough to find something in life that gets you out of bed and excites you, you never do a day's work in your life. And I'm very fortunate, I'm still to do a day's work.

And every generation of 20-years-old have such person like yourself? You keep your fingers crossed that there is in the next generation somebody who loves tea. So Richard was first of all, he loves it. Have we found the 11th generation? Very pleased to tell you we have. Oh, congratulations. So this is not one of my children, but my oldest nephew joined us very recently. He

He's not on site today, but he's in the tea department where we just were and going to become a master tea taster. Wow. So, yeah. And the most important thing is he gets up out of bed in the morning and he loves it. Yeah. The business was acquired by Associated British Food, that's right, ABF, in 1964. But the business was still very much operating independently. Yes. You were the brand ambassador of Twinings. Yes.

You wanted to do the brand ambassador for the brand or this is ABF wanted to have such person and from the family as well? I think the answer is yes to both. I've never asked ABF the question directly. But certainly what my father was a member of the company when he joined in 1956. So obviously in 1964, he was still a member of the company. They were very keen to retain his services is my understanding.

And he, in those days, 64, he was in developing our export business. So the reason we're in Andover and Hampshire, we obviously were a London company for all the time before, even though we outgrew the Australian shot, we had offices in the city and warehouse in the East End.

and factory, the Greater London Council, if you like, the Mayor of London, was trying to get industry out of London so that A, to free up space to build houses and to make the air quality better, all those sorts of things. And we were offered three or four options and we chose Andover because of Southampton, which is 30 kilometres down the road, because our export business was growing exponentially.

And so, yes, so we moved 500 people, which only two families didn't like life outside London, and moved back. So in HR terms, a hugely successful move. It's hard to imagine, but we were the first office building come factory on this, what is now a huge industrial estate. And yes, we've been happily here ever since. So, yes.

But yeah, going back to your question, yes, I believe Associated British Food were very keen to retain the services of my father. And...

They didn't know, but at the age of eight, I decided that I was going to be... Eight? Yeah. That's when I gave my first tea tasting to my classmates. We were doing a geography project at school, the subject being India. The Brits can't talk about India without talking about tea. And as it happened, the geography master had been to school with my dad, so he knew what that did, and asked him for wall charts so we could...

study the continent of India. And dad being dad, he sent a whole lot of tea samples as well. So at the end of term, the master had worked out it would be much better to have me at the front of the class presenting to my classmates rather than me in the class asking him questions that he might not be able to answer. So I did a presentation to my classmates, made them have a tea tasting, and their eyes were literally on stalks. Wide-eyed, wow! To them, they hear the word tea,

And their parents would say, oh, should we have a cup of tea? And out of the teapot would come this dark brown liquid and they'd add milk to it. And that was tea. One day, one drink adds up to an eight-year-old. That's quite logical. And now tea suddenly, we've got green teas, we've got Darjeelings, we've got Solons, and they're all different colours and they all taste different. Wow, this was an amazing experience. And that for me is when the, as the English say, when the penny dropped, when I realised that AI

A, I had a head start. I already knew something about something. That's good. And B, the significance of the name suddenly started to swirl around my head. And I decided it was a very harsh judgment. But if my peer group, my classmates, some of whom I knew were smarter than me and some of them the same in judgment, what have you, if they didn't know about tea, then probably the rest of the world didn't know about tea. Now, obviously, it's unfair that eight-year-olds should never know about tea.

that much detail on tea. But it was the thought that gave me that inspiration to go, right, I'm going to teach the world about tea. I've got a great head start. I know something about it. I've got a fantastic name. Let's go. And so that moment I decided this is what I wanted to do. Oh, my God. But in Twinings, we talk about squiggly careers. So I actually started as a shop assistant in the shop in London, managed it for a short while, then joined our sales force, done marketing, done tea tasting,

At one stage, I could run a teabag machine, but the teabag technology has moved on now. I'm not sure I could. So you'll work your way out. Yeah, absolutely, which is great training for when, if somebody asks you a question about the company, I can explain how tea tastings work. I know the process. I've visited tea gardens.

You know all that. I understand sales and marketing. I've never worked in HR or finance because I'm very good at spending it. So is your nephew going through the same? He'll work his way up. So he's going to, whereas I started in sales, he's going to start very much as a, go through the whole tea academy to become a master tea taster. Ah.

And then it's up to him as to if he wants to become the roving global ambassador that I am. Okay. So what does brand ambassador do? In my head, it's all about trying to encourage people to drink tea, but more importantly, to drink great tea and talking to your good self, whether it's holding a big press conference, whether it's just actually presenting to the audience

Walmart buyer to explain that our tea costs more because of this quality and therefore this is what you ought to be offering your customers and these are the reasons why. There is massive variety to my job, but as long as it's focused on talking to and trying to get to potential tea drinkers, existing tea drinkers, to say, oh, you love Earl Grey, have you tried Lady Grey?

If you taste Lady Grey, it is very akin to Earl Grey, but it's obviously different. It's got those lovely fruity tastes coming from the lemon peel and the orange peel and having less oil of bergamot in it. So, yeah, and it's just about opening people's eyes to the possibility. Don't just call it tea. Call it Darjeeling or Ceylon or...

So when you become or became a brand ambassador, have you ever spoken to your father or go back to your family history and ask the question how 20s have survived, say, World War II, World War I?

These wars put business out of business, right? Yes. World War II was the more difficult one because shipping, certainly we had to drop a lot of our China blends because getting tea out of China was virtually impossible. But we could get tea from particularly the African continents. And the government took over the buying process and they bought three grades of tea.

the good, the medium and the ugly. And we obviously went in and bought from them the good so we could continue to supply as close as possible our blends to our regular customers. And certainly we wanted to do our bit for the war effort. So we were supplying the

the mobile tea canteens that would go to the emergency spots. So when London was being bombed, the firefighters would fight the fire and then there would be a canteen serving about a cup of tea. We supplied tea to the British Red Cross who were sending food parcels to the British and Allied camps.

prisons of war and all those sorts of things while trying to keep the business going. So yes, we had to move some of our business out of London, certainly all the warehouses were moved out of London for the sake of preserving it. And then as soon as the circumstances allowed, we could reestablish our trade with China Tees because that's what the business was built on. It's still the most important group

growing area for us. Yes, and so yes, we did get through that crisis. Do you think because of the humane, very humane action the brand has done, say during World War II, people appreciated it and people remember you? Yes, I think companies are always judged, not just on the quality of their product and their reputation, but it is actions you take that are very important. So when we moved to Andover, then we were very much

supporting local charities around here, whether it's a local hospice. We would sponsor the rugby club and get very involved in the local community. And then 16, 17 years ago, we said, that's great, but it's not the best use of our money. What would be better? Because in 1997, we became a founding member, or we helped found an organisation called the Ethical Tea Partnership.

which was about getting tea companies together in a non-competitive way. At the ETP we would put in ethical standards and we would only buy from tea gardens who were signed up. It was free for them to sign up, they didn't have to pay anything, but they had to meet certain standards. Therefore we could raise the bar on the ethical side of growing tea.

That was going okay, I think is the way we would describe it. It wasn't as good as we wanted. So we then started a program that we call Source with Care. So we have our own team and they go into a tea garden or a herb garden, both are covered, and engage with the community. So the first thing they do is they carry out what we call the Twinings Community Needs Assessment Program.

Because, for instance, you're a perfect example of being a married couple. You might work in the tea factory and you might still be a journalist, but you live in that community. So you're just as valuable a member of that community. So we assess it's not just what are your needs, it's what is the community's needs. And it may be that there's need for, particularly for women's education about how bodies work, what they can do and what can improve their...

those sorts of things. And so then we would choose an NGO. So we work with Save the Children, we work with CARE, who's an organisation, some of the water organisations, whoever we think it is, they would then have the expertise to deliver that programme to make a difference to the communities that we're working with. So great programme. One of my favourite stories about Source with CARE is we're working with the

The cardamom grows in Guatemala. Guatemala grows a huge percentage of the world's cardamom. The first thing we were able to do through the NGA we worked with was get them to form cooperatives so they had more selling power because otherwise a merchant would come around and play each family off against each other. So that improved their livelihoods. Then we've taken it to the next step where they're being taught how to...

grow other crops amongst the cardamom in an environmentally friendly way, which is great. And then a, if you like, a competitor came along from America and said, listen, we love what you're doing in Guatemala. Can we add some funds? We went, yes, of course we can. Because the more we can fund it, the more we can expand it, the better we can make it. So we don't do this for competitive advantage. We do it because we think it's the right thing.

Right, so being with the people is quite important. Yes. A lot of the business, I mean, focus so much on making profit for the company. And they do charity, but oftentimes they wanted to sell first before they do charity. Yeah. But Twinings has a slightly different philosophy. Yes. Certainly in business, it's obvious you have to make a profit. But yeah, taking care of our people and...

And we extend that out all the way back to the end of our supply chain. It's very important. The changes I've seen in the company, two years ago, we opened, we have an on-site gym, which is fantastic, which means people can come to work and they choose either to get it before or afterwards or in their lunch hour, what have you. But it makes that side of their life

More accessible and therefore they feel healthier. They feel better. They are going to be stronger and better and that yeah, it has all sorts of upsides for both Parties and so yeah, you've got to think about people the end of the day on my business card Which I completely forgot to put in my pocket to give to you but I get one It says are twining and company limited and then obviously has my details down here and telephone numbers or what have you the most important thing is

The most important word on my business card is company, because it is us, the people of the company, who make the product and it is people who buy it. But yeah, within the company is our collective passion. And I think this gives us an advantage over other competitors is we love what we do. Therefore, we go, as the English would say, the extra mile to make sure everything's great, because that means you as a consumer go, oh, I drink the Twines because it's always great.

Yeah, so people are really important. And ABF obviously resonates what Twinings has been doing. Yes. And therefore has been supportive as well. Absolutely. I always describe Associated British Foods, if you like, as a banana. I can't say it now. It's sort of a godparent because actually the headcount in ABF is relatively small.

And they don't tell us, you need to make a tea with mango in it. They know that we know the tea market. So all their business is very decentralized. And yes, they have resources. So if we need to buy a new teabag machine, yes, we can do that because they will give us the resources to do so. But they also give us the time to develop tea.

product line or so for instance what you just tasted is the sparkling tea it's going to take time for people to go oh hey discover it then try it and so the numbers then build but yes you you don't build a house by dropping a sidewall and you have to build the bricks and having put the foundations down first and they give us the time to do that which is just fantastic wow that's

That's a relationship that a lot of companies envy. Oh, it is, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Now, I know that you are also a master blender. Is that the right term? Yes, I've been through that program. I tend not to call myself a master blender because I don't do it every day. So I drink a lot of tea every day.

But yeah, so should all our master blenders as a department win the lottery, they've all now got enough money so they can hang up their aprons and their tasting spoons, the company would tap me on the shoulder and say, Steve, can you help? And I could do it. Okay. Sure, yeah.

So what does Master Blender do? So the Master Blenders, their primary job is to maintain the quality of the different teas that we have. So then they are buying tea and then we have a team of Master Blenders who blend the tea. So it's sourcing the right teas and

most of the teas that we buy are seasonal teas. So China is a very seasonal producer. Spring crop, summer crop, fantastic. The autumn crop is tainting off and in winter there's no production at all. And so a lot of the teas were buying a seasonal so they're looking to buy that

tea at the right moment when they think the quality has got to exactly the right level and therefore yes we're buying a year's worth of tea in the case of darjeeling within a 16-week window which is fairly tight um particularly with global warming going on you used to be able to put in your diary end of march start buying darjeeling now it could be two weeks three weeks later five weeks later we a couple of years ago had a disaster

weather-wise in Daichi, or it might be a couple of weeks early. So, yeah. But, yes, so they are in charge of sourcing the tea, and this is a point of difference to other companies. And then they are, yes, they're mixing those teas. Each week they might have to reinvent the recipe because it's just tea gun, light tea gun, and we've used up that bit, so I need some of this. But it's always got to taste the same. It's always got to look the same. It's always got to have the same mouthfeel. Mm-hmm.

So that, yeah, that primary responsibility. But then they are also training the assistant buyers. So if you like, the most junior position in the tea tasting department is an assistant buyer. And they've got to teach them all the skills they have. And it's very much...

handed down generation to generation, you've got to learn the language of tea. I would say if I had to pick up the telephone to order some tea in Sri Lanka, and I was discussing a sample of tea from Sri Lanka, you've got to have a universal language because you can say, right, I've got this characteristic and this characteristic, but I'm missing this one. How do you describe that? How do you articulate that? And the whole tea trade, learn that language so that you can talk to anyone in the world of tea and say, yes, I love your tea, but what I'm also looking for is that characteristic.

They're honing their palates. So they're constantly teaching the assistant buyers to translate whatever they're tasting into. And can you taste this? And they make it more and more difficult. So you're looking for those subtle nuances because those are the bits that make the difference. They are teaching the assistant buyers who then become buyers, sort of 12, 15 years, become master tea tasters. But that is very much a peer judgment. There's no certificate. There's no university you can go to. It's the master tea tasters collectively going, yeah, no, I think...

I think Peter's got that now, so we'll give him his spoon. And notice you have your own spoon, right? When we did the tasting. Yes. Oh, wow. Okay. Which means if you've got your own spoon, you... And you said there's no school? No, it is all trained here. Oh, wow. So, yeah. Okay. And then you've got to learn the commercials because obviously, yes, if we have to pay more money for a tea, we will. Okay.

but what are the dynamics of the market? Is the price shooting up? Should we be buying while it's... If it's going to continue to rise, should we actually dive in now and buy some tea? Do we have to wait because the quality is not good enough now, even though it's obviously less expensive? And all those sorts of dynamics are fitting in. So, yes, it's quite a job. Wow. And when you were very kindly giving us the tasting experience just now...

I've noticed that their tea, or in Chinese, we call them the flavor tea. Ah, yes. You know, different, I don't know, fruits or different flavors mixed together, right? Yeah. And then you share with us an interesting story about your team in America has given here, what the headquarter, the briefing of pumpkin and... Pumpkin spice chai. Right. Yes, yes. Well remembered. I still can't remember. I can't imagine what that tea tastes like.

So when the briefing came in, who will come up with the briefing like that? And then a briefing then will come to Master Blender? Yes. So we are a very decentralized business. So we'll take the American example. We have a team in Shanghai. We think...

In quality terms, we think globally. Protect the reputation, keep and maintain. But in certain places, we can tailor our teas absolutely to a local market. Now, a pumpkin in the UK is something that kids look forward to having at Halloween and carving out and making a scary face and putting a candle in it. And it would be unusual if...

any of the pumpkin actually got eaten. Americans love pumpkin, they love pumpkin soup, pumpkin pies, all that sort of thing. And they're also, they love their chais over there, which is great. And so the local team identified that could we make a pumpkin chai because it would be really good at sort of the autumn season to have this seasonal addition to our ranch.

And yes, but the master tea tasters over here don't eat pumpkin, so you can't reference pumpkin. So they tried to make what they thought was a pumpkin spice chai, kept sending samples across, and the Americans kept going, that's rubbish, that's rubbish, that's rubbish. And this went on for several months.

And eventually the Americans had the idea we must bake a pumpkin pie and FedEx it. And so a pumpkin pie was FedExed across the Atlantic, consumed by our tea tasters who then went, oh, that's what you mean. And as soon as you can reference something, then you can put the ingredients together you need to create that flavor. So, yeah, very exciting. And did that flavor work? Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah. We thought it was only going to be.

We were only going to make it seasonally for around Halloween because that's when pumpkin season is. But no, it's on shelf all year round. Oh, my God. So how did a team arrive at a brief like that? Did they go out and do research among consumers? Yes, yes. I think in those days we were a bit behind the curve. We've caught up a lot. And some of the coffee companies were doing pumpkin lattes or whatever it was. And somebody obviously...

bought one and went, oh, this is nice. Can we do a pumpkin tea? And Chai was very much on the up in the States. So the marketing team went out and did some research and yes, people would like it and therefore, uh,

We made it. So this obviously is an interesting flavor that probably will be very popular among younger generation. Yes. So one of the questions that always puzzle us in China is about selling tea to young generation. Yes. Actually, one of my episodes back in 2021, we talked to a tea expert and we were discussing how much of a struggle it was for tea makers in China trying to sell tea to young generation. Yes.

Because the younger generation, first of all, find it intimidating to walk into a tea house trying to buy tea that they know nothing about because there's so many variety, right? So how do I choose? Green tea, dark tea, black tea? And even within each type of tea, there are different breeds from different places. Yeah. So younger generation, they started their tea drinking experience with bubble tea.

So to them, tea is like that, right? So the tea makers in China find it very difficult. They try everything, but they just could not get tea to a scale among younger generation. Yes. How do you crack that?

the UK or tea market? Both UK and China are very similar. There are more similarities I would say. Tea drinkers in both countries and generally actually around the world. And yes, certainly the younger generations, they are looking for convenience, easy to do. So actually tea bags are wonderful for them because you don't need all

all the equipment as well, supply of hot water, which most people have a kettle, a cup, a mug, you could do it with just those two and you're done. Teaspoon's nice because you can take the bag out elegantly. But yes, so that's first thing. Secondly, what the post-COVID particularly,

move into being more conscious of what we're putting into our bodies. Easily accessible, healthy things that I enjoy drinking or eating, but do me good. And therefore we have very much ramped up. I let you taste a couple of our super blends, the balance and the sleep, and they have things

fortified, if you like, so we can put vitamins and minerals, what have you, and use the right herbs to get a particular outcome. So to aid your sleep, to aid your digestion, to invigorate you or to help you ward off the bugs and things, we call that one defense, funny enough, and used our blending skills to put those together. Work with a practicing herbalist who says these are the active ingredients that will give you that

desired effect and you need them at this level and then our master blenders will add other ingredients to make them taste great. So a few years ago in the UK, turmeric was everywhere. It was suddenly the next thing. Everyone had to have a turmeric tea or a turmeric this or a turmeric that. Turmeric coffee. Yeah, yeah. Coffee, you can put it in, but tea is fairly delicate.

delicate and because you needed quite a big dose of it i remember the the conversation uh practicing herbalist said if you put that much in the bag they'll get an effect it'll be good for their joints and all this sort of thing and uh all the stuff turmeric helps with but you're never going to make it taste nice and our master blender who works in our new product development worked his magic put it together when she tasted it she went that was just incredible

because now turmeric tastes nice and we're making it accessible. So I've presented lots of teas, particularly on the west coast of America where the big health, the whole foods movement started and all those sort of things. California. Sat down with really hardcore natural food people who were suspicious of Twinings because they just see us as a green or black tea company. And they know it's natural, but they want the ingredients to get a...

do their bodies good. It will give you that effect. Try it.

wow, that tastes great. I've been drinking this for years. I hate drinking it. I drink it as a medicine. Now I can drink it and enjoy it because we want people to have enjoyable experience on the belief that if you enjoy something, you'll do it again. How long would these new, I guess, new flavors stay on the shelf before you decide that you need to withdraw them or just cancel them? Some, if we get our...

Our market research, right? And so, for instance, lemon and ginger was launched back in '96, '97 with a whole lot of others. Now, most of the others disappeared because the herbal infusions, herbal teas can be very fashionable, like the turmeric. It's the flavor of the month, so everyone wants it. And then cranberries came along, so we had to do cranberries. And a lot of those come and go.

But occasionally you find one that absolutely sits because it's a match made in heaven, as in the case of the lemon and ginger, which I'm very pleased to tell you will be on shelf in China in October. Wow, how exciting. Yes. You can taste it. Yes. It's delicious. Along with the rooibos and honeybush. Those are our two next launches in China. Oh, lovely.

Yes. So that sort of innovation was the action or the strategy that Twining did to stay ahead and stay, I guess, relevant to the younger generation. Yes, it's being relevant. Yeah. And we talk about innovation. One of the new products that we tasted as well this afternoon was the sparkling tea. Yes. Which I thought was very interesting because...

Many, many years ago, I'm a tea drinker. My husband is also a tea drinker. So we started mixing sparkling water with green tea early on. That was before sparkling tea was even, you know. Thought of. Exactly. So when I saw that at the waiting area in your lobby, I'm like, wow, that's...

That's what we used to do, you know, mixing these two together. But you came out with the sparkling tea. You must be the first one. To be honest, I'm not going to say yes to that because I think there probably are other sparkling teas out there. And I don't like to make claims that are not true. So I'll pass on that.

I wish I could say we're the first. What I hope we are is the best. So yeah, the sparkling tea is all about a pep up in the afternoon. It's about refreshment. It's about natural ingredients. The can, which has less than 50 calories. We haven't added any sugar because the sweetness comes from the fruit juices that we're putting in there. And yeah, so, and then we fortified them so that if you're looking for that refreshment, it has the manganese and the other things in that give you that

Off we go again. Great. So, yeah, it's a treat. It does you good. Fantastic. And this is not the first innovation that Twinings has done in more than 300 years of history. Oh, no, no. Earl Grey Tea was your invention, 1830s? I can't claim it as an invention. Okay. The legend of Earl Grey Tea is that while...

envoy, a diplomat, who'd been sent out to China by the British Prime Minister did some great work. There are two stories. One says that he just behaved in such an honorable manner in the eyes of the Chinese mandarin who he was resolving this small problem with.

was so impressed that the Mandarin gave him a gift of tea. More importantly, gave him the recipe. So that was obviously a very great gift in the 1830s because China still has a world monopoly on tea. But the envoy knew the Chinese tradition of the head man takes credit, so he knew it wasn't a gift for him. So on his return to London, presents it to the prime minister.

At the same time, what's going on is Thomas Twining, our founder, started this. And by the time we get to this story, it's the fourth generation he's carrying on, that we would make bespoke blends of tea for our customers. In the same way as you can go to Saddle Row and get a bespoke suit, absolutely perfect if it fits you. You could come in and describe, well, I want a relaxing tea or invigorating tea or whatever one tastes like this or whatever. And Richard would

mix up the different teas. Once you were satisfied with it, we'd written up the ingredients, put your name on it. So next time we'd recognize you, come in and look up your ingredients and we can make more tea for you. So that was a very nice service.

So when the Prime Minister received this tea, he tried it and liked it. And then he asked his tea merchants, trinings to make it for him, which was a great honour to do for the Prime Minister. And we were very happy to supply him. And the way we listed teas was, as I said, I think with your name. His title was Earl, which is...

as in royal families, you've got the king and the queen, you have dukes and then you have earls. So fairly high aristocratic family who happened to be prime minister. And his wife would very proudly have served this tea to all their guests and visitors. And sooner or later, I speculate, but I'm sure it happened, somebody would have said, this is gorgeous tea, could we have some? And they therefore gave Twining's permission to sell this tea.

lovely tea. The sad part of the story to me is back in the 1830s there were no trademarks or copyrights, so every tea company in the world says they make Earl Grey's tea, but we are the only tea company in the world that have the Grey family's signature on our box. So we have the seventh Earl Grey on our box to say, yes, this is the authentic Grey. Genuinely authentic Earl Grey tea. So Stephen, your father has...

initiated innovation himself as well. Yes. By bringing herb. Yes. So do you want to tell us about that story? So at the time, he was growing our export business around the world and saw in many countries that actually people drink more herbal-based drinks. So for instance, France, as I'm sure you know, they call them tisanes. And it means...

naturally caffeine free, flowers, fruits, seeds, barks, other plants outside of the world of Camellia sinensis, which is tea. And

he quickly realized that the skill in that we have of mixing them together to get that consistency of taste because like tea where they grow gives them a particular character and through the seasons it changes so we have the skills to make that taste the same so when a customer falls in love with it so yes he introduced a range of five tea uh five infusions back in uh 1972 um

because it fitted with our core business and our core skills and it was a very natural thing to do. I've been asked why we didn't do it before. Why didn't Thomas sell herbal things? And I think back in Thomas's day that what

what we would call the wise woman of the village who knew how to use herbs to heal people or what have you, they were very much in the decline. In fact, they were... And science was coming to the fore and we had these things called doctors who were brilliant and actually knew nothing about healing people. But therefore, that sort of set of ingredients would have been off limits because it would have been a distraction

very negative in people's minds that he would be selling them. So he would have said, no, I won't do that because I've got this magic stuff called tea. So, yes, when I really understood the company history, when I read it enough and digested it, I think timing is very important.

And what every generation so far have done is the right thing at the right time. And that helps a lot. And also don't innovate just for the sake of innovating. Innovate for a purpose, for a need. Understand your customer. Also, when I was doing the research, Royal Warren is recognition of the brand and the quality.

So a royal warrant is granted to companies that supply a good or service to the royal household. At the moment, we have warrants being granted by His Majesty the King and by Queen Camilla. And in the fullness of time, maybe the Prince of Wales will issue warrants.

But the first rule is that you have to be a member of the trade, so we're obviously Tea Trade, and we supply tea to them. I'm not allowed to say what we supply under the rules of the Royal Warrant. But that is just part one. So it's a business transaction. Yes, they buy it. We don't give it to them. That's all very clear.

behind the Royal Warrant, once you're granted it, if you're lucky, you're granted it for five years. Some companies get it for three or four. We're lucky enough to have just been granted His Majesty King Charles III's Royal Warrant and it will be reviewed in five years' time. So every five years, you have to continue to prove that you are worthy of being a Royal Warrant holder because the criteria isn't just you do trade with them. Yes, you must do trade, but the

They want Royal Warrant Holding companies to be seen as world-class companies. So, for instance, our Source with Care programme has to be world-class. Our environmental criteria. So I don't know if you looked out of the window when we were tasting our teas, I don't think you probably got the chance, but the building over the other side of the car park is also our tea warehouse.

And you can't see them because they're facing. But we've covered them in solar panels. So we're reducing our carbon footprint. But it's not just about saying, oh, yes, we'll reduce our carbon footprint by that. It's a constant process. Each time you're reviewed, you've got to keep making improvements. You've got to strive for

being the best. So they're all those sorts of, how do we use water? What do we do? Do we send stuff to landfill? What's our waste? What do we do with laptops? How do we make sure they get recycled and reprocessed and repurposed? So there's massive criteria. It is quite something to fill in the application form. A very long form. But so worth it because it is a huge honour.

Because what having a role now means is, yes, you are a world-class company. You're looking after your people. You're looking after your supply chain. You're putting stuff back into the right places. You're looking after the planet and you're doing all the right things. And hopefully other companies look up to you and go, we need to do that too.

But you were first granted the Royal Warrant in 1837 by Queen Victoria. Yes. And you received it ever since. The statement I would make there is we have had the honour of supplying every successive British monarch from that day to this.

That's amazing. And that's all I'm allowed to say on the rules of the Royal Warrant. I understand. But once you're granted the Royal Warrant, you're able to tell the world this recognition? You're allowed to. So yes, at the front of this building, we have above the logo, we have the Royal Code of Arms, the Royal Warrant. We can put it on all our packaging. What we can't do is the rules state you can't make...

a profit by having the Royal Warrant.

So, for instance, therefore I'm not allowed, and what I don't do is tell people what we supply the royal household because that will be influencing them to drink what the king or the queen might be drinking. So that's a very, very closely guarded secret. Not everyone who works for the company knows what that is. And therefore we're not making a profit by having it. We're very proud and therefore we display it. And if people understand what it represents, then yes,

It might, at the end of the day, mean they go, twinings or competitor. Oh, no, twinings doesn't roll well. That means it's going to be better quality. I'll buy that. So we might. Mm.

But no one can prove that we do. Whereas if I said, drink this because... Got it. Okay. Off to the tower, off with my head. And just for my listeners' interest, there are only 800 companies or slash individuals who hold Royal Warrens. Some of the brands that we're very familiar in China, Burberry, Jaguar, Land Rover, D.R. Harris, Berry Brothers and Rod, and the Ritz...

The Ritz Hotel London Yep Waitrose Yes Aldi Those are the names I were familiar with But there are only 800 of them Yes Not a long list No And that helps I think to make it

so special to be a warrant holding company. In fact, for me, it's more special than that because the way it works is they appoint one person in the company to be what they call the grantee. And I have the honour of being... Oh, wow. Yes. So it's a very special feeling. Oh, my God. Wow. So as a grantee, you get to meet the royal...

No, no, no, no. I go and discuss their needs with the Royal Chef because obviously it's a food product. So there are various different offices. So yes, I have the pleasure and privilege of dealing with the Royal Chef. I discuss what they want and what they need and what they might like and can we do it? And the answer is always yes. I think going back to what you said at the beginning of the recording about quality,

The fact that 20s has always received a grant of Royal Warren says so much about that insistence of quality. Yes. That has never been dropped. Yes. No compromise. Yeah, absolutely not. No compromise. And lovely to have that, the ultimate seal of endorsement, if you like. Yes. Lastly, I want to ask you about China.

Given Tuan Ying's history with China, the tea from China, right? Yes. But Tuan Ying actually entered China not for long. Yes, I agree. I think it was ABF that brought Tuan Ying to China in 2005. We piggybacked on an ABF office that was established. Yeah. So, yes, I would have said we were slow to come to China. But in my second breath, I would say we did it right.

What we don't want to do is rush in and go, oh, we need to... So we need to establish the office and establish the team, make sure they understood the tea drinkers, what was the need. And at the time, China was opening up. You were travelling, experiencing...

maybe even coming to the UK and what have you and drinking tea over here. And it was then the realisation that we understood there was an opportunity for the people who travelled, who'd fallen in love maybe with a cup of dry next tea, that they would want to have that experience at home.

And therefore, what range of teas would they have encountered as they travel around the world? Therefore, yes, this is the right selection of teas to offer the Chinese consumers. So sometimes, and certainly as a younger man, I was always in a hurry, but I've learned that patience is a good thing. Do it right, get it right, and earn people's respect. Mm-hmm.

Would it also have something to do with China being a very big tea drinking market? Yes. You want to be extra cautious as well when you enter. We certainly knew we absolutely had to get it right, yes. But then I think when we got our...

into the right headspace that we're not trying to sell tea to china because what's the point you've got some of the world's greatest teas um but what we've got is the ability to buy teas from all over the world so for instance the darjeeling the english breakfast is made up of uh indian tea sri lankan tea african tea so we can offer the chinese tea drinker additional choices

When we understood that, then we knew what teas. Green tea to China? Not a good idea. Why? It might happen because people love the convenience of a teabag. I have to say, I love...

We have to give full credit to the Americans who invented the teabag back in 1908. But the convenience of a teabag is just fantastic. When I travel, I always have a handful of teabags in my backpack.

so that I know anywhere in the world I can get a great cup of tea. If I happen to be in places that don't stop trinings, which would be shocking, but it does happen. Yeah, so people really love the convenience of the teabag. They know it's going to deliver quality. It's very easy to use, very user-friendly. And yeah, we've been making them since 1956, so I think we know what we're doing now. Do you yourself, or from the, I guess, the studies or the market reports from your internal team, tell you the...

any difference between the Chinese consumers versus your consumers elsewhere? When we narrow it down to the people who are buying our teas or our potential buyers of our teas, there are many more similarities than there are differences. And so I've just been talking about convenience. Convenience is always a factor. And thus tea bags are very welcome. The consistency of the quality, always they're easy to packaging,

You know that the English breakfast is red, I'll give it again. But I've actually heard in market research people say, yeah, I buy the red packet. And I go, ah, English breakfast. And so, yes, the communications are fairly simple. And, yes, our job is to make it accessible and to tell people where they can find it. Yeah, absolutely. While obviously doing all the stuff that we do every day, which is make sure it's that good.

You probably know better selling tea or marketing tea to younger generation in China than the Chinese tea makers, I would say. I think because we're offering them the choice of the healthy drinks, we don't use artificial flavors, their need, we can meet. So yes, it's...

So that's why it's so important to think local and understand the local consumer. In the case of China, that's why we have a team in Shanghai, to understand what's going on on the ground, what are the trends, what do people want? Because they're not going to buy what they don't want. They want to buy what they do want. And if we can fill that need for them, then absolutely, we will. Last question for me. Have you tasted the bubble tea in Asia or from Asia with the tapioca in it?

I have. What do you think? I'm going to say, as a lover of tea, that's not one of my favourite formats. What don't you like about it? I went to boarding school as a small boy and tapioca was one of the puddings. And school food is never going to be great, okay? School tapioca's... Okay. So...

Having left school, I promised myself I'd never eat it again. Okay. But I was persuaded to try bubble tea and obviously from experience, I had to do it. Yeah. But unfortunately, that's to a lot of the Chinese younger generation, that's their first tea experience. Yes. I'm a tea drinker. I drink traditional Chinese tea. I also drink bubble tea when I was much younger. And I thought, if I only stick to bubble tea,

I wouldn't know the wonderful world of the traditional tea drinking. Because that bubble tea is normally made with low quality tea and a low quality milk in it. Tapioca also not great quality. So the younger generation, their first tea experience

if they don't move on to other tea or traditional tea, they're going to think, oh, so that's everything about tea, which is a shame. It is. That is the only trouble with tea is that it's what this tiny three-letter word that covers this huge universe of flavors and different places to grow it in and to process it, to make the greens, the blacks, the oolongs, the puers, da-da-da.

And it's all covered by this tiny little word called tea. And if you think, oh, I had a cup of tea and I didn't like it, the amount of people who told me in my ambassadorial role, oh, no, I don't like tea. And I say, well, okay, what tea did you try? And they always just went tea. And I say, okay, well, try the green tea. Maybe you'll like that. Or try a fruit tea. Maybe you'll like that. And they go, oh, that's great. And I slide up and I go, great.

Maybe we should try as young as what you did when you were eight years old. Yeah, yeah. So hopefully they will have a tea experience outside of bubble tea and go, oh, wow. And that will hopefully engage their brain and go, there's more to this than bubble tea and start exploring. So whether they come in through the fruity side, the herbal side, maybe a ready-to-drink side,

we will be offering all those opportunities for them to step into this fantastic world. Well, hopefully through Tuan Ying's efforts in China and also possible partnership with local Chinese tea makers, we're able to welcome more and more younger generation to come into the world of tea and discover, just really discover the wonderful world of tea and then start enjoying tea. And there are wonderful tea other than just bubble tea. Because I think...

even if they're not tea drinkers at the moment, they inherently know because everyone always talks about tea being such a well-being drink. It's so good for you. It has so many things. And we're still learning about

What is it in tea that actually does the body good? It's easier to talk about the herbs because they've been studied for years. But actually, whereas China always told us tea is good for you, they didn't actually say because. And we're now looking for that because. If the trend of well-being, which I see, I don't see ending.

continues, then more reasons we can give people and say, yes, you know it's good for you, but now I can tell you why it's good for you. And if you don't like that blend of tea, that mix of tea, try the darjeeling, try the salon, try the Earl Grey, the Lady Grey is going to be terrific, or maybe you want a super blend, balance or the lemon and ginger or the rooibos and honey, whatever it is, you've got to enjoy it. Whatever it is, it's going to be good. Well, thank you so much for sharing this

the 20 stories and history, the key to your success. And also there are areas where you also were very honest about, you know, 20 probably didn't make it right. But you learn the lessons and then you move on, right? These are really valuable learning and sharings for us.

I think there is that insistence of quality and not wanting to compromise on quality, but you're also innovating yourself. You're coming up with new products, trying to stay relevant to your customers now. Those are great learnings, I think, a lot of our Chinese brands who probably only have 20 years of history and they have a long journey to go.

And hopefully they will listen to this episode and have learning from this 300 or 40 years of history of brand, knowing that there are things that you shouldn't compromise and their philosophy of your brand that you should really insisted on.

Don't compromise because there's other people doing price war. Stick to what you believe is the right thing for your brand and for your consumer and stick with it and be consistent. Yes. Know who your customers are and provide products that they want. And if you've got a loyal base of customers, they'll stick with you. So we've never set out to be the biggest tea company in the world. We didn't go into China thinking, right, this is going to be huge. We went elsewhere.

we want to provide Chinese tea drinkers with a whole new world of tea and we think it will be good business. Yes, of course. Build it brick by brick, solid foundations, then build it up. Hopefully we'll be able to welcome you to China and then have a face-to-face meetings with a lot of our younger generation customers and even brands just for you to share with them the twining story. That would be lovely. Yeah, excellent.

See you in Shanghai. Look forward to it. Thank you so much. Pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye.